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Brian Walton's news and commentary on the St. Louis Cardinals (TM) and their minor league system

Chris Carpenter overreaction reaction

It is probably best to start this article with three declarations.

I cannot fully express my admiration and respect for what Chris Carpenter has accomplished for the St. Louis Cardinals over the last decade. That was most recently the case in 2011, when the right-hander made what appears to be his last stand – pitching over 270 innings at age 36 despite an injury-checkered past. Carp led the staff to the World Series title, with his NLDS Game 5 duel with Roy Halladay being one of the best-pitched games I have ever seen.

I believe any playoff-contending staff – the Cardinals included – needs a veteran take-the-mound-every-fifth-day leader. That stopper who can be counted upon to neutralize a batting slump and snap a losing streak as well as serve as a mentor for the younger pitchers. Of course, the Cardinals currently have an abundance of the latter while some are concerned about the former.

I believe that the Cardinals’ staff leader should continue to be Adam Wainwright – for the foreseeable future, but within financial reason. In 2013, that is clearly the case, but with Wainwright’s contract coming due following the season, 2014 and beyond is in doubt.

Now that we have that out of the way, here is my beef.

Those who have been shocked that Carpenter will not pitch in 2013 and likely never again have reacted – or should I say overreacted – in ways that do not make good sense.

Out-there examples include immediately retiring Carpenter’s number (even though he has not yet even officially retired) and making him the major league pitching coach. I am not even going to take time and effort debunking them. If you are in the camp of supporters of either of those thoughts, please just move on without comment. Thanks.

Other reactions, not just from some fans, but also media, include the perceived need to re-sign free agent Kyle Lohse and/or for the Cardinals to increase their urgency to lock up Wainwright in a long-term deal. The key in the latter statement is the word, “increase.”

Let’s take these individually.

The long-term costs to keep Lohse – in money, years and loss of draft pick compensation – far outweigh any potential short-term benefit to the Cardinals. This has not changed.

Those who think Lohse and agent Scott Boras are desperate enough to settle for a one-year contract – spiced with a promise from his club to not make a qualifying offer next fall to help ease Lohse’s 2014 re-entry into the free agent market – are living in a dream world. Any club could make such an offer – not that it would be accepted.

Lohse had a spectacular 2012 for the Cardinals.  At age 33, the right-hander probably experienced his career year. In other words, Lohse is not a younger player coming off a down season, looking to increase his future marketability via a short-term, prove-yourself deal.

For Lohse, the time is now to score what could be his last big contract. I hope he gets his multi-year commitment, but I cannot see how it is going to be with St. Louis.

The Cardinals organization made its tradeoff when deciding to offer another veteran, Jake Westbrook, a two-year extension last August. That deal gives the Cardinals flexibility – an easy exit after one season if they so choose.

The club already fully understood the injury risks with Carpenter and Jaime Garcia last fall. That is a key reason they did not trade any of their coveted young pitching over the winter. The latter point is not my speculation – it came directly from the mouth of general manager John Mozeliak.

Without Lohse and Carpenter, the Cardinals still report to spring camp with seven legitimate starting pitchers competing for five rotation spots – holdovers Wainwright, Westbrook, Garcia and Lance Lynn – plus Joe Kelly, Shelby Miller and Trevor Rosenthal. Even if Garcia cannot go, one of these talented pitchers would still have to either open the season in the pen or go down to the minor leagues.

Without any of the above names, the relief corps already has six of its seven spots virtually locked up in Jason Motte, Mitchell Boggs, Edward Mujica, Fernando Salas plus lefties Marc Rzepczynski and Randy Choate. As such, the pen should not be compromised by Garcia’s situation. In summary, the Cardinals’ pitching appears to be in good shape.

The need for veteran leadership brings me to my second point.

Those who have tied Carpenter’s news to an increased need to sign Wainwright are off base, in my opinion. Implicit in such a view was an expectation that a 39-year-old Carpenter would still be around in 2014 – to pitch every fifth day as the staff ace and serve as its veteran leader.

I never assumed that for a minute.

In my book, the Cardinals would never let Wainwright walk because of a feeling that Carpenter next year and beyond could be enough. That would be amazingly short-sighted. Simply put, the urgency of keeping Wainwright for 2014 and beyond is the same this week as last.

I have a bonus point to make about Wainwright’s contract itself. On Thursday, the Seattle Mariners and Felix Hernandez reportedly agreed to a seven-year extension for $175 million that would be one of the richest contracts in MLB history.

King Felix is at a very different point age-wise than Wainwright. Hernandez’ deal would cover ages 27 through 33, while Wainwright’s next contract will begin at age 32. Yet, those who suggest there is no relevance between the two have blinders on, in my view.

Through deals like Hernandez’ and Zack Greinke’s (six years, $147 million), the free-market price for a prime-season of a top major league starting pitcher continues to increase. That may not change the number of years the Cardinals want to go for Wainwright, but it certainly could affect the money needed to keep him, especially in the early years.

Finally, anyone who might suggest that the Cards use an immediate threat of a multi-year deal with Lohse as a wedge to try to push Wainwright into a long-term commitment would have the team engage in a game of chicken in which one alternative is far less desirable than the other.  In other words, be very careful what you ask for.

The Cardinals and Wainwright have time. While most interested observers would prefer they get an extension done this spring, it would not be the end of the world for negotiations to drag into the fall.

In conclusion, remember Carp fondly, wish Lohse the best of luck, cross your fingers that Garcia can be healthy, anticipate the young pitchers stepping up and hope that the Cardinals and Wainwright can find contractual agreement.

In the meantime, please try to keep your feet on the ground.

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95 Responses to “Chris Carpenter overreaction reaction”

  1. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    A thoughtful article Brian………….. but do you know its weaknesses??????? The Cardinals do have the resources to win………at baseball………. but they are electing to proceed along the lines of the original plan in the face of obvious contradictions………… period…….. they had huge insurance polices out on Carpenter………. many of them……… Chris took home 6.5 last year….we’ve talked about the 5 and 10yr now interest deferred moves here……….. those were all put into play in the ‘need every penny /can’t take a chance” to sign AP program…………. Chris paid for his own insurance, and they bought a lot. Big television raise coming in 2014………….. this team does not have a surplus of pitching…….to win that is……Garcia is going down…..the way he pitches hurts his arm……. he taking a new approach????
    Cardinals aren’t going to sign Lohse……no matter what…….Union would bust their ballz…….. this is a 3rd place team……. Adam going to win 12 games in that environment? …..14 games…….. Westbrooke going to pull his weight as the vet………. I’m not so sure………. Miller is going to get shelled….I guarantee that………… Rosenthal going to adopt a tactic that preserves him???? Lynn beat the early innings with 0 runs if Beltran goes down…………. It was going to be tough sledding with Lohse….

    • Brian Walton says:

      I don’t see how Carpenter’s insurance situation (whatever it is) has anything to do with the subject of Lohse and Wainwright. Further, the Cardinals’ current TV deal has five years to run. I will stop there.

    • CariocaCardinal says:

      I just cant figure out how a team that so easily manipulates the insurance game wasn’t able to sign the biggest insurance payoff of all – Pujols. $25 million of profit every year and being able to tell the public they are tapped out on payroll because of the Pujols contract.

      • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

        The collusion settlement 2010 was almost solely dedicated to the anti competitive statutes over the upcoming blitz of TV money………. The money was coming ….. AP was the first glaring example of how it would be used/could be used …….. without complaints ….. AP was the property of MLB and Fox from that time on……. DeWitt just did the herding………. Fox will own 80 of 90% of YES in 3 yrs. Unless TW steps in, they will own NESN too. If they invalidate A-Rods contract……. Pujols will never see the 30 large years ….. you’re missing some great entertainment………that Red Sox to LA trade at 260 million, made many people happy……… TW inherited that little maneuver………. RedSox just that much closer to being Fox…..this is just starting ………. stay tuned ……….. the insurance stuff it right out of the Enron period…….let that go….. its just business………..

        • CariocaCardinal says:

          Westie, do you have iota of proof of this phantom collusion settlement in 2010? thought not. And you wonder why no one (on this board or any other) takes you seriously.

          • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

            If I started “proving things” around here……………. Brian would be looking for another team……. we talked about those events at the time…….go back and look if this goes back that far.

            • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

              http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/14046835/mlb-players-and-owners-settle-collusion-allegations/rss

              they didn’t talk much then who was compensated, or what the owners meetings were about.

              • CariocaCardinal says:

                Ok, this might pass the iota test but not much more …… “”Although the commissioner’s office found no evidence that any club violated the collective bargaining agreement or otherwise acted improperly, the parties agreed to discuss the concerns of both players and clubs to determine whether the process could be improved for both sides,” Major League Baseball said in a statement. ” Posturing? probably. But if you are going to cite an article it ought to support your argument not argue against it.

                So instead of making your case, you disproved it and then take it one step further with further fantasies (which you’ve alleged without any proof now or in the past) of player compensation.

                “We” didn’t talk about anything. All I remember is some fantasy ramblings by one person.

  2. crdswmn says:

    I agree with everything you said except that the Cardinals can let the negotiations linger until the fall. If they sign him before FA maybe. If he becomes a FA he’s gone.

  3. CariocaCardinal says:

    I’d like to see you do a similar type article on the ludicrous statements people make about Lance Lynn – like those talking about an 18 game winner relegated to long relief in the bullpen or even put in Memphis. Crazy stuff.

  4. CariocaCardinal says:

    Looks like the reports on the Felix Hernandez deal were premature.

  5. Brian Walton says:

    Had a couple of people on twitter disagree with my retired number position. Those decisions should not be made at the time when sentiment is high. They can never be undone, though it is too bad, as several current ones are questionable, IMO. There are any number of Cardinals in Cooperstown who were not even given the honor. Let it stand the test of time.

    Fortunately, with the new Cardinals Hall of Fame and Museum which is supposed to open at the start of the 2014 season as a part of Phase 1 of Ballpark Village, the club is going to implement some type of a team Hall of Fame. That should be ideal for situations like this, Willie McGee, Jim Edmonds, etc.

  6. blingboy says:

    CariocaCardinal says:
    February 8, 2013 at 3:20 pm
    I’d like to see you do a similar type article on the ludicrous statements people make about Lance Lynn – like those talking about an 18 game winner relegated to long relief in the bullpen or even put in Memphis. Crazy stuff.

    Before that it was suggestions that we should trade him. Surely, there has never been a less loved 18 game winning rookie. I don’t understand it at all.

    The photo of Lynn at camp today is unrecognizable. Lean and clean cut. Much more lovable.

    It was also mentioned that Garcia threw a bullpen with good results.

    • Brian Walton says:

      Two kinds of stories are common this time of year. Guys are slimmed down and in better shape than ever. Other guys add weight and strength to better handle the grind of the long season. Either way, if they tank later, the off-season approach will be blamed.

      • blingboy says:

        Shelby critisized for slimming down last year, Lynn praised for doing it this year.

        • Brian Walton says:

          Shhh… Remember, it’s not a beauty contest and we don’t know if the org has praised him, do we? Zero innings pitched to date.

          As a point of reference to keep in mind next month, the old Lynn posted a 2.61 ERA last spring.

          Jumbo would have said Lynn wasn’t ready to start last year. After all, Lynn threw less than 110 innings in 2011. ;-)

          • JumboShrimp says:

            The Cards used Lynn in relief during his rookie season of 2011, as they did with Wainwright in 2006. The following season, both became starters. Both of these men spent a full season or more at AAA, whereas Rosenthal has not had such AAA experience.

            It will soon be springtime Brian, a time for hope or what you call in others over-reaction. You are full of hope that a kid who has not started at AAA will earn a rotation slot in the Majors. Good luck to these hopes, and good luck to mine as well, regarding Ronny, Aura, and Super Pete.

            • Brian Walton says:

              I said nothing about hope. I pointed out the man’s qualifications and the fact that he will be competing for a starting job. Your view that he is not ready is irrelevant. Fortunately, the players’ results will be allowed to speak for them.

        • Brian Walton says:

          Yes, Lynn is being praised. He lost weight in an approved manner, apparently.

  7. JumboShrimp says:

    If Carpenter was still experiencing nerve problems, despite the last operation designed to end this chronic problem, then it is time to hang it up. Sensible decision by a great player.

    Garcia is iffy and Rosenthal is not ready to be a ML starter yet.

    I would not be surprised to see the Cards look into trading for Bud Norris. We could use another veteran starting pitcher.

    • Brian Walton says:

      Darn. I forgot to put Bud Norris among the bad ideas in the overreaction article above. You are not the only one to suggest it.

      Rosenthal is not ready why? Since you readily admit you do not watch games, you must have missed him in the post-season. Rosenthal happened to be the only Cardinals pitcher unscored upon. He dominated, throwing 100 mph while fanning 15 and walking just two in 8 2/3 innings.

      I’d take any growing pains associated with Rosenthal over Bud Norris seven days a week. I bet the Cards would too. They are extremely high on Rosenthal. Though you pretend to talk with Mo, I did with the real one about it. ;-)

      • JumboShrimp says:

        9 innings of post season relief will enable Trevor to shoulder 200 innings during 2013??? The Cards were already willing to shell out $9MM to Westbrook to prevent that from happening They may do more, now Carp is leaving the stage.

        Of course the real Mo will say nice things about Rosenthal. He should. So do I. But what Mo and I divulge to reporters need not be the whole story.

        • Brian Walton says:

          Jumbo, you could at least check the stats before blustering on. Rosenthal threw over 140 innings in 2012 despite being used out of the pen exclusively in St. Louis. He threw about the same in 2011, including the post-season. In terms of workload, Rosenthal is as ready as any other minor leaguer. In terms of stuff, more so.

          Feel free to keep talking with your imaginary friends.

          • JumboShrimp says:

            Adam Wainwright spent 1.5 seasons at AAA (2004-5) as a starter, then spent 2006 with the Cards as a reliever. He only became a ML starting pitcher for 2007. Part of being a ML starting pitcher is developing the confidence, maturity, and resolve to handle the job.

            The Cards did not hand Rosenthal a starting job during 2012. They showed the same care as with Wainwright. He threw in relief.

            We will see what happens for 2013. Mo shelled out $9MM for old Westbrook and $10MM on C. Carpenter, because they have been around the block a few times and know what to do on a ML mound. This was also to shield young guys from having a mountain of responsibility heaped on them.
            With Chris Carpenter now hanging up his cleats, we have one fewer veteran starting pitcher, while Rosenthal and Carlos Martinez are not any older than before. Yes, I could see Mo looking around for another veteran starting pitcher, much like he signed Ronny (and Aura) instead of relying solely on Super Pete.
            Is he going to confide this to is real pal, Brian? Why should he? Mo can announce a signing after it takes place, rather than prematurely blab to a reporter.

          • Brian Walton says:

            Jumbo, you fail to grasp the point that if a pitcher has proven he can get out major league hitters, then he does not need to return to the minors for more experience.

            You keep bringing up Lynn spending a whole year in the pen before starting. Look at the numbers. Before he became a starter, Lynn had thrown 34 2/3 innings out of the pen for St. Louis. Last year, Rosenthal threw 22 2/3 and did it with a lower ERA and WHIP than Lynn.

            I don’t know if Rosenthal will make the 2013 rotation out of camp, but I do believe he deserves the opportunity given him to compete for the spot. If he does make it, it would not be an upset. On the other hand, if someone else pitches better, that is not a bad thing.

    • Brian Walton says:

      P.S. If Norris played for the Cards, he could not beat them anymore. Against everyone else, he is below average.

      For example, Norris’ career ERA vs. Reds = 5.11. Versus Brewers = 4.30. Beating those two is kind of important.

      Norris career ERA in the Juice Box = 3.51. Everywhere else (including StL) = 5.39. At GABP = 9.00; Miller Park = 6.23. Maybe the Cards could relocate.

      • blingboy says:

        We don’t need Norris, but last I checked Todd Coffey is still looking for work. Beef up the pen.

      • JumboShrimp says:

        If Norris’ ERA at home is 3.51, this will be fine. He must be more effective at home than on the road, much like Jaime Garcia.

        Norris does have nearly 1 strikeout per inning at the ML level, as a starting pitcher, indicative of swing and miss pitch quality. He has pitched at least three years in the majors. He has value to other GMs, and Luhnow is not going to surrender Norris for cheap, so Mo may not be willing to pay the price. We shall see.

  8. Nutlaw says:

    Yeah, maybe I’m crazy, but I wouldn’t be too upset to see a rotation of Rosenthal, Miller, Lynn, Kelly, and Martinez, even. Maybe that team doesn’t reach the World Series in 2013, but it’s ready to kick butt in 2014.

    • Brian Walton says:

      I wouldn’t go that far, but I am glad the Cards are not reliant on bringing in mediocre veterans as rotation filler.

    • crdswmn says:

      Not in 2014 either. It takes more than one season to mature into an elite pitcher or even a moderately elite pitcher.

      That rotation would scare the hell out of me.

      • Nutlaw says:

        You don’t need a whole rotation full of elite pitchers, just good ones, and fastball based pitchers like Lynn, Rosenthal, Martinez, and Miller won’t be gaining velocity over time. Lynn and Kelly have already shown themselves up to the task and Rosenthal and Miller both had incredibly nice starts to their major league careers.

        The Cardinals will re-sign Wainwright, still have Garcia around, and will have Westbrook around for 2013. They still have too many starting pitchers, not too few.

      • Nutlaw says:

        And the young guys are clearly where the organization is going. If they need multiple major league seasons to fully reach their elite status, give them those seasons. With the exception of Martinez, I don’t see the others benefiting much from Triple-A time or bullpen stints.

        You can’t get too comfortable with the familiar in baseball. Young guys are the vast majority of the players getting better. All of the old guys are just getting gradually worse, and they are a heck of a lot harder to bench when their play deserves it.

        • crdswmn says:

          I don’t have a problem with giving those guys playing time. I have a major problem with the attitude that all young guys are good and all old guys are bad. One of the reasons why baseball will eventually be ruined for me. Bad attitudes and continuously fixing things that aren’t broke. It’s the scourge of every sport and why baseball is the only sport left that is interesting to me. Won’t be long at this rate though.

          • JumboShrimp says:

            Disparaging some on grounds of advanced age, while being optimistic about young players is commonplace. Its probably also an occupational hazard for baseball journalists, a way to appeal to readers.
            Mo, TLR, and Mike are not journalists, of course, instead baseball professionals. They are not going to get all gooey eyed and over-react. Mo loved the job Kozma did last September, but signed Ronny (and Aura), for prudence, depth, and competition.
            We also are not going to be asking Carlos Martinez to shoulder a starting rotation role out of spring training. Carlos needs to pitch at AAA.
            But spring is in the air, so over-reaction is too/

          • Nutlaw says:

            I don’t know that anyone thinks that all young guys are good and all old guys are bad. That wouldn’t make any sense. Young guys are cheap and on the rise, though.

            Carpenter was a great pitcher and helped win the team a couple of championships. He was a great Cardinal. He was clearly at the end of his career though, so his seeming functional retirement isn’t so tragic, especially with young options abounding. That’s all.

  9. JumboShrimp says:

    It took Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, and Nolan Ryan a few introductory years in the Majors, before they grew into great pitchers, with long careers.
    An exception to incremental ascent to brilliance would be someone like Vida Blue or Mark the Bird Fidrych, who had superb rookie seasons. I forget what Lincecum did as a rookie, he might be similar, but its not really an apt comparison, because Lincecum was a collegiate star and well established as a pitcher even before turning pro. Kerry Wood would seem an example of a power pitcher who was fantastic upon reaching the Majors.

    Rosenthal has had one season at low A, with an ERA a little above 4. Skipping High A, he had a very fine season at AA during 2012, followed by getting his feet wet in the Majors. Hes got a lot of promise. A question for the Cards is what to do with Rosenthal for 2013? One option is to continue the incremental introduction to the Majors by having Rosenthal spend a full season in relief, as we did with Wainwright during 2006 or with Bob Gibson early in his career, IIRC. Rosenthal would still have a good arm during 2014, we would hope, and we could shift him to starting in 2014. This is probably what Mo would like to do, unless so many pitchers become injured, we are forced to ask a guy who has not even started at AAA to man-up to the workload of 190 innings in the Majors. If given a starting role, Rosenthal might perform very well. But the Cards can still give him this responsibility during 2014 and let him gain ML experience during 2013 as a reliever.

  10. blingboy says:

    It had been 12 years since a Cardinal starter struck out more than a batter an inning when fat Lance did it last year. (176 IP, 180 K).

    I seriously doubt it will be that long before it happens again.

  11. blingboy says:

    From Fossports story about Boras opening a fitness center for clients in Miami:

    ““There has been recently an unusual frequency of Latin players who have been subjected to rogue information and to individuals portraying themselves to be medically trained when they’re not,” Boras said.

    “We want to make sure we’re making every effort to advance the credibility and understanding of what major league players must abide by and also to protect them from the influences of many of these supposed medical practitioners who are availing themselves to the players.”

    Boras, who earned a doctorate in industrial pharmacology at the University of the Pacific, said he had no knowledge of any of his clients using PEDs, . . . .

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/scott-boras-open-private-fitness-center-for-clients-in-south-florida-peds-020713

    • JumboShrimp says:

      A doctorate in pharmacology is about the best possible preparation for becoming a sports agent.

      Scottie is shocked, shocked, to learn there has been gambling taking place, inside this casino.

  12. Sign Lohse!! We can afford it and would avoid the anxiety and apprehension of relying on 2 youngsters in rotation. And the closer it gets to the season, the more likely Lohse will agree to a one year deal.

  13. blingboy says:

    JumboShrimp says:
    February 9, 2013 at 9:25 pm
    A doctorate in pharmacology is about the best possible preparation for becoming a sports agent.

    Scottie is shocked, shocked, to learn there has been gambling taking place, inside this casino.

    Good one Jumbo. I am really quite relieved that Dr. Scotty has decided to save baseball.

  14. Brian Walton says:

    Carpenter met with the media on Monday. He is not retiring, but has no idea if/when he can pitch. In a free article on the main site, I briefly highlighted his remarks and summarized his career accomplishments.

    • blingboy says:

      I’m sure he has an idea if/when to pick up the paychecks.

      • Brian Walton says:

        $12.5 million is a lot of cash for any warrior to leave on the table. Best of both worlds. Widespread fan admiration for not giving up.

        • blingboy says:

          I agree, its a lot of cash.

          So far I have heard/read nothing suggesting Chris feels any obligation to do anything for it.

          Nor have I heard/read anything suggesting the team expects anything.

          I’m OK with that stuff being dealt with by the org, Chris and the insurance company out of the public eye. It just seems sort of surreal somehow, like there is a pile of cash sitting there and they are carrying on as if they never noticed it sitting there.

          • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

            His take home pay last year was 6.5………….. he paid for all that insurance himself…….that’s why he is going to collect it………. What you should try to appreciate…..is why Mo/BD rolled out the handkerchiefs just hours after he complained …………… Knowing that their losses would only be in the 3/5 large range…

    • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

      This article is so filled with misinformation…its laughable………

      • CariocaCardinal says:

        And if anyone would know about misinformation it would most likely be you.

        • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

          Bugzackly………………………..

          Chris Carpenter rhp
          2 years/$21M (2012-13)

          2 years/$21M (2012-13)
          signed extension with St. Louis ((((((( 9/11 )))))), replacing option year of previous deal
          (((((12:$8.5M,)))))) 13:$12.5M
          (((((( $2M annually deferred without interest))))))

          Gweeb………..

            • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

              The Cardinals owe Carpenter a guaranteed $10.5 million this year and he’ll collect the money

              The Cardinals freely entered into this contract with Carpenter after the 2011 season, even though there were obvious risks with his pitching health.

              After Carpenter pitched the team to the World Series championship in 2011, Cardinals management was enthusiastic about taking the risk and gave Carpenter a two-year deal. He broke down again. That’s just the way it goes.

              • CariocaCardinal says:

                Is that what you are hanging your hat on? laughable indeed!

                I assume you are harping on the deferred money. Bernie said Carpenter is getting paid 10.5 million to pitch in each of 2012 and 2013. That is totally accurate. When it all gets paid doesn’t change that.

                • Brian Walton says:

                  Not my argument here, but I did feel that leaving out any reference to the $2 million deferred each year was at best confusing and at worst, misleading.

                  • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

                    The time line issues are huge. They started negotiating that in August …. when we were ten games back……. It was his only way to survive the Pujols “position”…….all BS….. his fear was if they sign AP, there is no money to pick up his 15 million dollar option……..and they knew they weren’t going to sign AP!!!!!!!!!!!! Bottom line is he was paid 8,5 and 12.5….. two million deferred from both…… we know what “without interest means, over 5 or 10 years………. the back loading was to pay for his insurance……and they bought multiple policies………. he is collecting his own F’ing investment……
                    you think if Garcia gets a sore arm in the coming weeks, they are going to stop the presses????? hell know……… they are playing appearances with all this stuff……… Elevate the dialogue here Brian or I will lose interest again………

                  • CariocaCardinal says:

                    Brian, Not sure I follow you here. Are you talking about the earning of the 2 million or the deferring of it? Bernie seems to address the earning of it. The deferring of it is minor in the scope of things.

                    • Brian Walton says:

                      CC, the simple point not presented is that if he retired, he would walk away from $12.5 million, not $10.5. His salary is $12.5 this season.

                      WC, it is your call as to whether or not you read or post.

                    • CariocaCardinal says:

                      Ok, i understand and agree – Except for the fact that I dont consider it that relevant since him walking away is nothing but an internet fantasy.

                    • Brian Walton says:

                      Here is why I believe it is relevant. The whole focus is to counterattack those who suggest Carp is being greedy. To say he is being greedy/not being greedy over $10.5 million is inaccurate. $12.5 million is what is on the line.

                    • CariocaCardinal says:

                      In that context, wouldn’t it only be relevant if it the difference in amounts made a difference to someone as to whether or not Carp was greedy (I doubt it very much).

                    • Brian Walton says:

                      Why wouldn’t one present the basic facts in the proper context?

                    • CariocaCardinal says:

                      A valid question that seems to have nothing to do with the other question at hand of relevance. But to answer your question my guess is that Bernie was just lazy. He most likely just looked at the PD article on the signing which doesn’t break down the annual values. He may or may not have a valid reason for not using Cot’s as a source as most people do.

    • blingboy says:

      Bernie pointed out that Carp has already collected $30M for years he didn’t pitch. Whats another $10M. Nice racket.

      • crdswmn says:

        Obviously you completely missed the point.

        Sigh.

      • crdswmn says:

        Resenting Carp for getting paid is like committing road rage against a driver for going 70 mph in a 70 mph zone because you think it should be 55.

        • blingboy says:

          This situation with Carp is the sort of thing where the only acceptable thing to do is focus solely on the great accomplishments and admirable qualities of the individual, and absolutely ignore any other factual aspect which does not constitute heaping praise on that individual.

          Recognizing that reality, those who do wish to make any mention of any non-hero worshiping aspect of the situation, are compelled by convention to cocoon the thought in layers of caveats and disclaimers, ad nauseum, so as not to be taken as resentful, hateful, bigoted, unenlightened, or whatever.

          I understand that I broke the rules. If there was an edit feature I would correct it at once.

          • crdswmn says:

            You didn’t break the rules. You made a comment and I commented on your comment. Ain’t democracy grand?

            I mean really, no one is asking you to hero worship Carp. He’s no saint. He has a temper and a potty mouth. I am sure there are other things to blame him for, I just don’t know what they are. It just seems to me that blaming him for playing by rules you don’t like is a little unfair.

            • blingboy says:

              I’m not sure “blaming” is accurate. It would be dumb to turn down the money like Big-dummy Mac did. I feel like Chris has already been adequatly praised. I am on board with that, and can think of nothing to add since nothing has been missed. But I see nothing wrong with pointing out that Chris surely already holds the franchise record for getting paid for not playing, and will be adding to that record this year.

              This reminds me of the situation when TLR was calling it quits. Everyone blathered on about the large number of wins he racked up. When I talked about the large number of losses there was quite a bit of negative reaction. It seems the correct thinking was the large number of losses were due only to being around a long time, while the large number of wins was due to ability. Perhaps so, but I still do not understand why being 3rd in all time wins should be 100% of the story and being 2nd in all time losses should be 0% of it. The Carp thing is exactly the same. Exactly.

              • crdswmn says:

                Well, your use of the term “racket” led me to believe you don’t approve of Carp taking the money.

                As long as baseball gives out guaranteed contracts, players will be paid when they aren’t playing. Wainwright was paid to not play in 2011, but I do not recall this kind of complaining about that. Baseball isn’t like working in an office. It’s a risky business, and teams know they will be paying for not playing during times in a player’s career. It is the nature of the business. I think sometimes people want to simplify things too much, kind of like those who complain about government spending money as if it works just like their family budget. Perspective is a good thing.

                • blingboy says:

                  It will be interesting to see if Carp is around later this year, once the emotional trauma of recognizing that its over dulls down. A difficult thing for a war horse, I’m sure. I understand that focusing on something besides baseball for now may be a necessary thing.

                  Certainly, he shouldn’t do anything that could cause more physical problems after baseball. Still, I do hope that a need to contribute somehow this year reveals itself later on.

                  • crdswmn says:

                    He will eventually come back to baseball in some capacity. He can’t stay away.

                    He is suffering a grievous loss, and it is quite common for people who have lost something or someone they love to take measures to not be reminded of their loss. He said he wouldn’t go to ST because he didn’t want to be a distraction, but I think it is more likely because it would just be too painful for him right now. The question will be how long will he mourn. It’s different for everyone.

          • crdswmn says:

            By the way, you have such a way with words, Bling. Touche.

        • CariocaCardinal says:

          And it sounds to me like you are committing road rage against Bling for going 55 in a 70 mph zone. He also is within the limits of the law.

          • crdswmn says:

            I believe that is what I said. He has the right to comment as he chooses and I have the to right to comment on his comments. The trick is to not get upset too much when someone doesn’t like what you say. Many people have a hard time with that. I’ve spent a long career being verbally abused by all manner of people. I guess I have a thicker skin than most.

            I don’t commit road rage against slow drivers, I just pass them. It’s easier on the blood pressure.

    • Nutlaw says:

      I feel like Bernie is commenting on our thread, but only in article form. :D

      Discussion is always fun. I’m not sure that people get to hold the opinion that others aren’t holding valid opinions with a straight face, but that’s cool. It’s not like I’m going read a big long list of stats and somehow change my subjective like or dislike of how a situation is handled. Likewise, no one else needs to care what I think. :D

      • RCWarrior says:

        Man oh man this was an exciting thread to read on a slow day. Ha Ha. I do miss the complete insanity. :)

        • Brian Walton says:

          Re-reading it myself, I can see where you are coming from. Having said that, I imagine you can still find insanity in your current world without too much searching. ;-)

          P.S. Congrats on the field naming in your honor.

          • RCWarrior says:

            Obviously the board is less insane without me posting Brian, but thanks for bringing it up. :) but it does appear Jumbo is trying to make up for my absence.

            Thanks Brian, All I can say about the field naming is this….on a car lot full of pinto’s, an AMC Pacer stands out. This area is all about football so a raggedy school in the middle of nowhere starts winning a little bit, and that school has never won at anything, they think you’re special. Smoke and mirrors is all I’ve got to say. It was the most embarrassed I’ve ever been during the ceremony, and I’ve done many things I should have been embarrassed by. :)

            Bling, This group here is an all star cast. The conversations here are priceless to say the least. But you already know that.

            Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. :)

        • blingboy says:

          You know how it is RC. We’ve all been off our meds since October.

          Best wishes to your bunch.

  15. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    General manager John Mozeliak said it was “not an active negotiation.”

    This is why you are even talking about Carpenter. Instead of normal procedure, they hit the press with CC’s story to play a position with Wainwright and agent……….who of course knew about the severity of Chris’s issues…………… in other words…….they enhanced their offer to AW ……saving face on their inflexible position…………. Adam says you are not even close………….. the problem is……… the basis for their position is something that’s going to leak over to on-field activities……with the MM coaching …..
    ……..this is exactly why I pick this team to place third…….

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