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Brian Walton's news and commentary on the St. Louis Cardinals (TM) and their minor league system

Molina’s contract extension – How do you feel?

According to a Wednesday morning report from CBS Sports Jon Heyman in Jupiter, Florida, catcher Yadier Molina and the St. Louis Cardinals have agreed to terms on a five-year, $75 million contract extension.

In a “you be the general manager” poll last month here at The Cardinal Nation Blog, the limit in terms of years that readers would have given Molina was five. However, the maximum money you would have paid the catcher was much less – $10 million less over the five years.

Though not yet officially announced, let’s assume that the Heyman report is accurate. How do you feel about these terms? Do you agree or would you have handled it differently if you were running the Cardinals? Please vote below.

How do you feel about five years, $75 million for Molina?

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113 Responses to “Molina’s contract extension – How do you feel?”

  1. friendmouse says:

    Frankly, I’m pleasantly surprised that the ‘birds and Yadi got this deal done in short order. Yes, the amount is probably more than his raw stats should command, but intangibles are, redundantly, difficult to put a price tag on. :) In the final analysis, though, I believe it will prove to be money well-spent. When you think of who would have replaced Yadi, do we have anyone to fill those shoes internally? I think not quite yet, at least. And to get a vet to come in to replace him would have been difficult to find, and the money would still be high. Nice job, Mo…I sure was not looking forward to having the suspense of an un-signed Molina being discussed and argued about all season. Let’s play ball!!

    • JumboShrimp says:

      There are no bargains to be found, for any team, when it signs an elite veteran with leverage.

      Yadier is one of the best and under 30. To re-sign him, you have to pay until DeWitt cries and then some. You have to give him a deal he is confident is as good as any he would see next winter. A lot of moola.
      After this season, the contracts of Lohse, Westbrook, and Berkman will end. This may free up $32MM and give us some salary relief for paying Yadier.

  2. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Strauss getting scooped by everyone else?????????? And even this grand figure…. staunches all wounds???????? Considering how it started………..I find it pretty provocative…..BD caving in to an angry Puerto Rican ……… I can see BD conceding a market contract for Molina at this point…..that has a future in another organization ………… and him knowing it……… doesn’t this money then begin to pressure/temper Wainwrights “market value”………….. just can’t seem to see what is going on here..
    If Mo/BD come out and say “we think 5/60 is a great contract…..we stand by it……. how does Molina ask for more?????????? 75 must include an option yr……….. how not? Unless its Fox money, and they are trying to keep Molina in place for the Return………… I am so curious……….

    • friendmouse says:

      Hehehe, westie! You are so fun! Of course you cannot “seem to see what is going on here..”. The reason you cannot see it is because it IS about baseball. Plain and simple. But, of course, that’s impossible for you to accept, and I understand…that’s just the way you’re wired…it cannot be that simple and there HAS to be something unseen and (probably) sinister at the core of this deal. I say “Who cares?! Play Ball!!”

      • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

        Don’t know how you could miss the point farther mouse……………..I could give a rats — what the pay Molina………..it could be 5/100 ……….. its not my money ……. I am always interested in why …..BD knows that this opens the gates a bit to his program ………lets see whats happens…… I’m watching Sept 19 game with the Phills………… thank god AP is gone ………….. Lohse doubles to lead off the thirds…furcal move him over…….. and Haladay walks Punto to get to the DP machine……… lucky he just struck out looking….instead of taking the Sac Fly………Berkman scored him……..

      • JumboShrimp says:

        Wired or wierd?

  3. Bw52 says:

    Way too much money.Molina has knee trouble now…………………….how`s he going to be 3 or 4 years down the road.Very bad move IMHO.I could see a 2 or maybe a 3 year deal at most.And the money is way too much.

    • Brian Walton says:

      If I may ask, which way did you vote, Bw52 – trade or wait for draft picks if unsignable? Not sure what people are considering ‘other’ to be.

      • friendmouse says:

        Brian- I logged in and commented about 2 hrs ago, but it wouldn’t “take.” Maybe filtered, but nothing inflammatory in it. Oh, well…now I cannot remember exactly what I wrote, but I think it was the right thing to do, signing Yadi with that contract. I CERTAINLY was not looking forward to a whole season’s worth of speculating and arguing about “will he /won’t he; should we / shouldn’t we; money vs. fans” etc. Yadi is the best, and I wouldn’t trade him “even up” for any other catcher currently in MLB. At least not yet. :)

      • Bw52 says:

        Brian-I voted trade.

        • Brian Walton says:

          OK, thanks. In trading, are you willing to weaken the 2012 team? Seems most unlikely they could get a replacement catcher as good. Instead, likely multiple players would come in return, including a prospect or two that could pay off down the road.

          • CariocaCardinal says:

            I think it is a false choice to say a trade necessarily weakens the 2012 team. yes, we weaken ourselves at catcher but if we could get a solid defensive catcher fairly cheap and add Oswalt with the salary saved would we be weaker? If we could add a high priced veteran at mid-season would we be weaker? If we got a low priced but upcoming RH hitting OF (who could play some CF) and catcher who might be ready next year along with the salary saved this year to be spent elsewhere we just might come out even this year nd way ahead in the future.

          • Bw52 says:

            Brian-I think trading Molina for several young players or close to ready prospects would have been a good solution.Yadi has knee issues now and his workload will only cause more problems.I question having a super slow knee wobbly catcher with a 15 million dollars salary.IMO the Cards way overpaid.Defense and handling the pitching staff are Yadi`s strong points and his offense has been a bonus………………………………..is that worth 15 million a season.I don`t think so.As some others pointed out………………Cards could have used the money to make other improvements.I like Yadi…………I just don`t like what he brings to the team 15 million dollars worth.

            • T8Ball says:

              Who knows when those “issues” will occur? In 2 seasons? 3? 4? Any indication that it will be an immediate problem? I believe Freese’s Arthritic feet pose more of a problem than Yadi’s knees.

  4. friendmouse says:

    Reading Joe Strauss’s article yesterday on Rzepczynski, I was somewhat amused by a quote from zep himself…especially in light of some of the “back-and-forth” on these boards as it relates to the “genius” of TLR. Here’s what zep said…”"Having Arthur [Rhodes] come here gave me the opportunity to pitch more often,” Rzepczynski said. “When I was the only lefty, Tony didn’t know the right situation to use me. Arthur freed him up to use me more.”" Oh, really? Do you think LaRussa would agree with that assessment…that he did not know the right situation to use him? Not likely. But I think Scrabble speaks the truth…Tony was confused more often that many believe. However, he WAS a great manager. No more.

  5. blingboy says:

    Matheny would have had some input, especially in the area of Yadi’s value in getting the most out of the pitchers, and the young pitchers that will be coming in over the next few years. How much is having him catching Shelby going to be worth?

    Yadi was gimped up with the knee and still led the team with a .300 avg and had a career high OPS. And a GG. And a 29 yr old deals with dings better than a guy in his mid 30s. So I think its a good move. A risk yes, but I think 52′s position is too far the other way.

    If the 5th yr is an option, so much the better, even with a hefty buyout.

    • Brian Walton says:

      If there is a team buyout/option year, it would almost have to be the sixth year to get to $75 million. Something like 14-14-14-14-14-5, for example. That deal would be called 5/$75 because that is the amount Molina would be assured of getting.

      In this example, let’s say the year six option would be for another $14 million (with a $5 million buyout). The max would then be 6/$84.

      • blingboy says:

        The numbers are scary, but right, I see the point.

        If he hits .300 for five years, gets 5 GGs, throws out above league avg and turns Shelby into Cy Young, then I won’t gripe about the home to first moseys. Not with conviction at least.

  6. blingboy says:

    And friend is right about the benefit of not having the Yadi question hanging around all year. Personally, I’d be very happy about that.

    By the way, I saw a great college basketball game last night at St. Louis U. Sold out, they came storming back to win it. They’re on the bubble for the NCAA tournament. My two kids who are students down there work for the Athletic Dept so I got great seats. It would be nice if that program could sustain some success and give St. Louis sports fans another option for the winter off season. With the Blues having been pretty bad until lately and no NBA here its been bad hockey, bad college basketball, or nothing.

    Afterwards, at a watering hole, I had a conversation to the effect that experienced, proven head coaches have made all the difference for the Blues (Hitchcock) and SLU (Majeris). The Rams have gone that way hiring Fischer, and the Cards had success with LaRussa, so now its the Cards bucking the trend with Matheny.

    • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

      There very will could be a high incidence of roster manipulation this season.
      by jstrauss 12:16 PM

      Read more: http://live.stltoday.com/Event/Cardinals_chat_from_Jupiter_Fla#ixzz1noQs5WWs

      • Brian Walton says:

        OK, I will take the bait. Why do you see that comment as being particularly notable? Plenty of young guys on the roster and everyone except Greene has options remaining. When guys are ineffective or are injured, there are ready reserves in Memphis already on the 40-man roster. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

        • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

          Skip Schumaker has done his work in the outfield during batting practice and when players are cleared for individual work. Matheny said it’s important for him to continue to focus on second base, though his playing time during games will be in the outfield. Matheny said Schumaker has spent enough time in the outfield to not need the work. He added that while Tyler Greene will get more starts at second in games early on than Daniel Descalso or Schumaker, “that’s not showing favor to Tyler. He has less (experience) at the position.”

          Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/cardinal-beat/rain-delays-morning-workout/article_e8a73cbe-62ed-11e1-8498-0019bb30f31a.html#ixzz1nomQDlqt

          This is way too much noise……………….. Matheny is already trying to deal with rationalizing the strings that entangle him ………………… the Cardinals will always be trying to fulfill the optimal “financial” utilization of their resources…………… that knife cuts both ways…….. I’ve been talking about this for 2 years…………… this isn’t to suggest that Mo/BD can’t be virtuoso’s at this game………….. there seems to be plenty of precedes for failure though………. the pressures above will fall directly on Matheny…….he will hold competitions that may have the winners invalidated by other variables………. the team will respond to that environment……… I would say the half the teams in Baseball are run this way……….. soulless ……… you know their names ……… You could lose the heart of a Descalso…..or a Schumaker in a hurry ……….. With all the young pitching available ………. does Motte survive??? or Kmac????? these are just new challenges……..I no what they mean for me……..

    • Nutlaw says:

      Yeah, agreed. Not having this sit around for everyone to obsess over is great. Now focus can shift to on-field success and prospect development. Much preferred!

  7. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Contract structure will show what the “grinding” was all about……………………….. here is the most probably scenario ……………. Molina came to camp a week early…agent in tow…..10/15 lbs lighter…..and pissed……… he tried to force a move if they had one in store ….so that he might get a grip on it………………………… when he was poo=pooed ………….. he got really pissed and it took 75 million to slow him down ……………….. they needed him and he knew it ……………. this is really of no consequence until next year …….it will effect Berkman………

  8. CariocaCardinal says:

    I voted in the “other” camp. Because I agree it is problematic to trade him and get in a decent replacement at this late date. A month ago, they probably could have gotten a nice haul, been able to sign or trade for an adequate replacement, and had the money to sign Oswalt. At this late date you take the draft picks but they should have been preparing for this at least ever since AP signed elsewhere. As Westie said, this affects Berkman next year. For what we are going to pay Molina we could have a solid defensive player and another Berkman/Beltran/ or 2 oswalts every year!

    • Brian Walton says:

      If I interpret your answer accurately, you are suggesting going back into time because you don’t like any of the current alternatives. Not exactly feasible.

      Given that he didn’t get traded before, your current choices seem to be limited to trade, don’t sign or sign.

      • CariocaCardinal says:

        Well, if the Heyman report is correct, anything one suggest other than signing him is going back in time. You also used the term “handled” as in past tense but gave no time frame, so my answer seems logical and fair.

        But if I had to choose of the three choices you are now limiting me to, I’d not sign him (for that price).

        • Brian Walton says:

          I see your point but I did not intend to imply the time frame is vague. I mean the choices available right now.

          Given where we are, you would not sign him (at that price). Would you make the qualifying one-year offer this fall to get the draft picks or just let him walk? (Maybe I should have made the latter a voting option, but I assumed the few “other” votes would encompass that.)

          • CariocaCardinal says:

            Oh, I take the draft picks – they are freebies – no way he takes a one year offer even if he was only going to get $10 million AAV for 5 years.

            We can now all turn our eyes to Berkman now I guess. With the yadi signing we have probably lost the flexibility to bring him back. Probably even the flexibility to offer him a qualifying offer even with a monster season so we lose out on those draft picks as well. Sigh.

            • Brian Walton says:

              I have to think about it more, but with the emergence of Craig, I am less worried about keeping Berkman beyond this season. Surely, if I had to choose between a 30-year-old Molina next year or a 37-year-old Berkman, I would take the former without hesitation. Berkman is far more replaceable than Molina.

              P.S. With both Lohse and Westbrook coming off the books next year and Waino still a year away from his payday, I would not make any assumptions about 2013 affordability.

              • CariocaCardinal says:

                I think Yadi is over valued. His defense can be replaced and I’m guessing we’ve seen his offensive peak. $15 million buys a lot on the open market these days.

              • CariocaCardinal says:

                I never look at money coming off the books – I only look at what salary we have coming back and need to replace. I’d say we are around we are around $100 million for 2013 at this point and that is with two inexperienced starters and a Craig/Adams first base combo.

                As an addition to my above comment, saw a reason poll where Yadi was voted 8th best catcher in baseball. That poll may not be the end all but it shows me that their is a lot of bias built in to most Cards’ fans opinions of Molina.

                • Brian Walton says:

                  I get your point that you see Molina as overvalued and know you are not alone. Heck, the max the voters right here wanted to pay was $13 million.

                  My only comment on the poll you reference is that I question its credibility.

                • blingboy says:

                  There is deferred money, I heard. So how much over this year’s $7M are we really talking about over the next 2-3 years?

                • T8Ball says:

                  CC, you’re about right on with payroll if a few fellows live up to fans expectations. That being Motte and Freese. If Motte becomes a top 10-15 then he’ll break the 3.5-4.0MM in his 2nd Arb season. If Freese can play a full season, then he’ll see a hefty spike north of 3.0MM in his first Arb season.

                  Financially, I don’t see 2 of the following 3 making it past this season: Motte, Boggs, KMac. Nor do I see Cox making it, if we need to shed his nearly 1.0MM for 2013, then we’ll do it. Might even shed if for a Prospect for Prospect move, just to save a few dollars.

                  Also, is the 110MM the target this season? My math says it’ll be over 110MM this season, but just barely. Who knows exactly what the budget will be next season? We can assume, but as fans we are usually wrong.

  9. T8Ball says:

    I voted 4 years @13MM AAV in the previous vote. I can live with the 5 year, +70MM deal. I don’t know the exact details, but I’m assuming an option year pushes it past 70. Didn’t 5 years/13 win the vote? That’s 65MM, so it’s close to what we are hearing the amount is.

  10. ball in play says:

    vote: agreed with the decision

    a little pricier than what i projected, but i am not disappointed. i don’t see a future all-star gold glover in the pipeline being blocked. and now, i don’t see another position that needs upgrading next offseason, especially one of positional scarcity on the FA market.

  11. CariocaCardinal says:

    Is there anyone who thinks Molina would have cost more than 5/75 after the season?

    • Brian Walton says:

      One wouldn’t think so, but who would have predicted Albert’s deal? Reaching the market adds risk and uncertainty.

      • JumboShrimp says:

        The high end of the market seems unbounded. If there are two rich teams who choose to do so, they could bid an elite free agent to $40MM/yr or more. It may happen someday.

        For average players, their salaries can be largely calculated, based on comparison to similar athletes.
        Agents must use the salaries for elite players to help argue average players deserve more money. The Union must argue that the higher the pay for stars, this more $$ deserved by their supporting cast.

        • CariocaCardinal says:

          I think we’ve seen from this and seeral other deals, it doesn’t necessarily take a second team. Gm’s seem more than willing to bid against themselves.

      • CariocaCardinal says:

        Didn’t most “experts” expect more than that for Albert?

        • Brian Walton says:

          No, but you could have researched your own question. For example, this article showed the predictions of two agents, two team execs and Heyman. They were at $25 million per but were only for 5 to 7 years max.

          • CariocaCardinal says:

            yes, I can do research

            “Rumblings surveyed a dozen executives from clubs that are unlikely to participate in this auction and asked them to predict A) how many years and dollars each player would get, and B) what team would give it to them. Here is what we found:

            The Pujols prognostications were fascinating. They ranged from 10 years, $300 million to one (mostly tongue-in-cheek) prediction of three years, $90 million. But otherwise, nobody forecast a deal shorter than seven years. And the average contract worked out to 8.5 years, at just over $28 million a year. ”

            http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page/rumblings111110/exploring-market-free-agents-albert-pujols-prince-fielder

            Of course this was last Winter and I believe (and can research it also if you really want me to) that the predictions were even higher in the off season before his final year as Boston hadn’t yet acquired Adrian Gonzalez and was expected to be an active (and deep pocketed) bidder.

            • Brian Walton says:

              Sorry for the snarky reply. I guess I still had that vague survey you quoted yesterday about Molina ranking as the 8th best catcher in the back of my mind. In the case of Pujols, the estimates were clearly all over the map and varied by time. If your original assertion had been “some experts” instead of “most experts,” I would have let it pass without comment.

    • RCWarrior says:

      Probably not CC but there will be somebody who will go higher than that number if Yadi reaches free agency. It seems to be the Cardinals have to pay for him at a fair price or lose him. Hopefully they choose to pay up and keep him. The guys pretty good imo. :)

  12. Kansasbirdman says:

    I wonder how much Yadi’s game management and pitch selection (and continuity with some pitchers) factored into the offer. We have a new manager (new to managing) and Dave Duncan is out indefinitely (hoping the best for his fam).
    Can we assign a value to that? $1 mil 2 mil + per year? Was it a factor?

  13. STLfan51 says:

    I agree with this decision. While I think the money is a stretch, I do believe he would’ve gotten it elsewhere. I don’t care where fans rank him among the best in the game. I care about how he affects this team. Period. The veterans love throwing to him. The young guys love throwing to him. And he loves catching them!!!! He puts as much effort in working with the staff as he does his defense and hitting. Oh and by the way his defense is phenominal (can’t put value on that) and his hitting is above average for a catcher. If his hitting slumps he still has a positive influence on the staff and he doesn’t let his defense slump either. He impacts this team in three different ways, EVERYDAY, and two of those three are under his control. IMO the trade talk or let him walk talk is lunacy. It’s been stated that we as fans overvalue him. I would ask the question, do fans now see him in a different light due to his buddy leaving? Maybe it’s just me but lately it seems we as fans have taken for granted what a player he is. Trading him for prospects to afford Oswalt? Come on people.

  14. Brian Walton says:

    Molina press conference to be held in Jupiter at 2 P.M. ET today. They won’t discuss money then, but once the contract is filed, the specifics will leak out.

  15. crdswmn says:

    I haven’t weighed in on the Molina extension, because I have been pondering it. I’ve finally landed on the fact that there just wasn’t any alternative out there that was guaranteed to be a lot cheaper. I don’t agree with those who believe any old average catcher would have sufficed in order to save money. I certainly don’t agree that we should have traded him to get Oswalt (really?). Trade him to get an elite pitcher (which Oswalt isn’t anymore) or some other top player, but not a 34 yr old with back problems.

    There are a lot of things that Yadi brings to the team that aren’t measured. The loss of Dave Duncan I think was a big factor here. The PR issues that would have come with losing Molina on the heels of losing Pujols probably also played into it. The catchers we have in the pipeline just wouldn’t cut it as replacements for Molina.

    It’s a lot of money, more money than I think he is really worth, but then my opinion of Molina has fallen somewhat from what it used to be and that probably colors my judgment. The bottom line for me is that I don’t see this as being a problem for future contracts, Waino’s being the most important. We have Waino for two more years and by that time sufficient money will have come off the books to afford him. That is my primary concern and I am satisfied that we are okay with that.

    • blingboy says:

      Good summary of the situation. One other consideration is the front office wouldn’t have wanted the Cards to become known as one of those teams that can’t hold on to its big stars.

      • STLfan51 says:

        If not Yadi then who? To me, there is nobody cheaper, younger, or better. Yes there may be younger with potential, but you pay for that too, while facing the unknowns of it. Yadi is a known commodity. Pay a little more, run less risk, and not have to face the problems of 3/4 of this league, paying for a warm body behind the plate. I’d spend the extra money to delay that from happening as long as I could. Yadi will age eventually and we will be forced into that situation soon enough. And will be thinking, “remember when we didn’t have to worry about our catcher?” Worth every penny.

    • CariocaCardinal says:

      If the Cards win as many games this year as last, does the PR argument regarding Pujols hold water. I think it just reinforces to the fans that the team is more important than the individuals and that would have been a good thing.

      • crdswmn says:

        This is the problem with not being clairvoyant. There are a lot of “ifs” involved, with this as with almost anything in life. I imagine the Cardinals weighted all the “ifs” and decided the better risk was on the side of paying the money. Whether it was worth it we will know in 6 years.

  16. Brian Walton says:

    From Ken Rosenthal via Twitter:

    Confirmed: Molina deal with #STLCards indeed $75M for five years, according to source. None of money is deferred.

  17. JumboShrimp says:

    This Molina story illustrates why Mo is the reigning Executive of the Year. Albert leaves town, so Mo re-signs Berkman, re-inks Furcal, adds Carlos, and now re-signs Albert’s amigo, Yadier. Molina is not going to go into the Hall of Fame wearing an Angels jersey!!!

    Its nice when the tres amigos have a chance to relax together after another successful campaign, doing charity work and playing dominoes down in the Dominican, as revealed by Brian. Combined, this trio may earn $600MM during their baseball careers. Hard workers.

    • JumboShrimp says:

      Yadier sure got a better payday than Mike. IIRC, the Cards offered Matheny about $4MM over 2 years to stay put, thus Mike took $9MM over 3 years to move to the City by the Bay.
      Today’s deal will lift Yadier’s lifetime MLB earnings to $99MM. Yadier should pick up the tab for Mike, every now and again.

  18. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Good read by Roman…………………….. what other choice did the Cards have???????? The only visible move would have been Ianetta for Molina ………. I don’t think the Angels wanted any of that….because surely they examined that possibility …………………. all the talk early on wasn’t BS it appears …….. the particulars will tell the story………… does he have any protection for the next 20 months? does he have a restricted teams list ………….. how much of a back load is there? no deferred likely means that things weren’t cordial …………….

  19. Brian Walton says:

    Started talks May-June last year, tabled. Reopened two weeks ago. Momentum after face-to-face meeting 10 days ago.

    5-year deal (2013-17) for $75 million guaranteed plus 6th year mutual option at $15 million (2018). 2012 at $7 million remains unchanged. Deal also includes no-trade protection.

    Pretty straightforward.

    • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

      Mutual option is fluff……… its just an agreement on fixing a price……….. it is hiding a little barb worth 5 large over the life of that contract to BD no doubt ………………. I would say that Roman compensated nicely ……. good for Molina and agent ……………………. this will impact the market for a number of other players …………. some on teams that could find it costly ………………. play ball ………

      • T8Ball says:

        The Mutual option was another way of saying, “here, Mrs. Molina, I hope you enjoy the stay, you are very, very important to us, Yadi is, too.”

        Yadi declines, it’s worth X amount, Team declines, then X amount. There could be a gentlemens agreement. It could have thrown in as a “sweetener”.

  20. T8Ball says:

    Here’s one for you, WestCoast, last line of the Goold article.

    Mozeliak said. “We’re in the business of retaining our best players.”

    Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/cardinal-beat/molina-my-first-choice-was-to-stay-here/article_e9c63fd4-63d6-11e1-a0b1-0019bb30f31a.html#ixzz1ntzU1lwQ

  21. T8Ball says:

    Brian, do I have a post in the filter?

  22. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    T8………………. there is no X amount…….its fluff……..you think they take Holiday’s option……….. ????
    had it been a team option with even a modest buyout….1 million………. that would have been about buying some control……….its fluff………….. the No Trade is significant…………. it means there was serious arm twisting by Molina………. those are always to protect a discount….not a gouge…. he has protection coming shortly ….summer of 2013……….. taking more shows an element of protectionism ……………….. who cares anyway………… its ball time…….no one …….no one at all….. knows what Molina will be without his big brother at first base………… I’ve always said everything will be better………I look for Molina to take better AB’s now that he won’t be prospecting………… lets hope he is the surprise/bargain of the year………………….

    • T8Ball says:

      I was agreeing with you, WestCoast. Fluff, Sweetner……same thing. And their is an X amount, one will be greater than the other. Just depends on which side declines the option. FO declines, then Yadi will pocket more. I assume there was a gentlemen’s agreement for the FO to decline it.

      To me, the Mutual option was more of an arm twist than the NTC. Calling it a Mutual option allows the FO to save a bit of face and quasi defer a bit of salary.

      • T8Ball says:

        Doh, I misused “their”, meant there

        • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

          There is no buy out on a mutual option 8………………..there is a team option……which is control at the expense of the buyout clause…………there is a player option…..this is almost alway accompanied by a few statistical requirements ………. the truth be known……. Molina/Roman just exploited a vulnerable BD…… this has to do with tensions and agreements being held up by certain parties ……. the struggle goes on ……………. bottom line …….. the no trade is just a safeguard ……………. in all likelihood, Molina will be reunited with TLR by 2014 …………… Billy D. has to hate this……all of the Agents are going to be talking tough to him for a few years ……… he’ll get even though……….. he hasn’t a worry in the world now for a few years……….its all mapped out………. the only irritation is if Westbrooke or Lohse win 17, and he has to deal with own planning………… he has everybody waiting for the kids now…all of them…. and they will be given “ample” chances at succeeding ………… the guy is good ………..

          • T8Ball says:

            Of course there are buyouts on mutual options. One is usually greater than the other. Usually, to protect the owners, A player takes less in a buyout, if they are the one to end the contract/decline the option. In some cases the player would forfeit the entire buyout, though that’s not usually the case anymore.

            Most recent example was Roy Oswalt with the Phillies. Roy would have received less than the 2MM, if he were the one who declined the mutual option. The Phillies took care of that for him and declined his option on Oct 24th, thus Roy received the 2MM.

            • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

              Oswalt, Roy rhp-s 9.149 Robert Garber 5 yr/$73M (07-11)+12….. cl opt……. $16,000,000 $2.000

              there are two options …………club option…….and a player option….which is just an opt out …….. a player can arrange a buyout on a club option when he signs the contract………… a mutual option is just agreeing on a price should they wish to engage……..it is non binding……its just a right of refusal. …there is no compensation…………if there it to be compensation…….its a cl opt (club option) players never pay a team………they use there opt out……… I’m sure you are understanding this….its just your terminology thats screwed up………..

              • CariocaCardinal says:

                No T8B has it right (including the terminology). If it was truly a buyout on the club option, the player would never collect a buyout when the team agrees to pick up their half of the option, But the way many of htese are structured the player often gets the buyout even if they (not team) opt out. Only one thing screwed up here ……..

            • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

              T8………………. this page has examples of most variants…………. Placido has a Cl opt with an opt out that is termed a Mutual option ………….. because it contains a buyout clause…… it is really club option….invoking all the rules concerning negotiating with other teams prior to prescribed deadlines…..as listed above….the Roy was a club option with buyout………… a mutual option…without a buyout clause ………. is a politeness ……….invoking certain rules and deadlines……… it has possibly become more common because of all the fu fu contracts ………….. teams will rarely offer a buyout number…….with an end of contract option opt out………..whats the point……….. except controlling player negotiations with opposing teams……..

          • CariocaCardinal says:

            I have to give Westie credit for sticking to his guns. Despite the Cards continually raising payroll and on the heels of a ridiculously overpriced and budget busting deal (my opinion) to Molina, he is going down guns blazing sticking to the idea that this is all part of BDW’s master plan to lower payroll to the $80 million range.

          • Brian Walton says:

            WC said:

            in all likelihood, Molina will be reunited with TLR by 2014

            Since you know Molina has no trade protection, does this mean you are predicting the return of TLR to St. Louis? Fascinating…

            • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

              The “no trade” just gives him control……………. WSox are in a troubled transition ……… their rookie coach is likely a temporary in my mind……………someone to try to hold things together as they reorganize………… I see Tony and Dave going there ………………. Cards give up Molina in an instant under the right circumstances ………… and he goes …………. they can’t like that contract ……… AJ is in his last year there ………….. just a hunch ……………. but that is contingent on many things, including how the Wsox play………….. Molina has his deal ……doubt he cares much who pays it ………. he now decides all of that ………… if Tony calls ……….he goes…………Tony is gone from ST Louis …………… they have an understanding…….much like the AP understanding………..its in their mutual interest to hold this shared illusion …………………. bottom line…….there was a bunch of ways to disguise the value of that contract……………….. somebody didn’t let them …………. 15 is a hard number ……….. they keep the 7 this year which is conspicuous ………… if he has a great year,,,away from AP ……..maybe he learns to be happy here …………….. allot of BB to play…………

  23. CariocaCardinal says:

    I have to admit I am just stunned.

    So Molina gets basically top, top dollar.
    He gets no trade protection
    …and he gets all this a year early thus avoiding injury and performance risk for 2012.

    AMAZING!

  24. T8Ball says:

    Time to go out on a limb.

    3 guys enter Arbitration for the first time after this season. Boggs, Freese, and Rzep. 2 More will be in their 3rd and 2nd year without multi-year contracts. Payroll availability is shrinking after recent signings/extending with the likes of Yadi, Carp, Furcal, Beltran.

    Of the 5, 3 or 4 won’t make it to 2013 with the Cards. Will Motte and Freese one of the casualties? With depth in the minors at 3B and the BP (especially, RH relief), one could argue there isn’t anything utterly special about Motte or Freese. Those two are fair game when it comes to possible casualties, since they will be the most expensive.

    I don’t have to explain Freese’s negatives, and I understand that I will strike a major nerve with some Freese faithful (never touch a WS Hero).

    I did say I’d step out on a limb, no? :) I found myself not being able to commit long term to either, nor able to commit myself 100% to endorsing money north of $4MM AAV, when Motte’s job can be easily duplicated and Freese has never played a full season in the majors. Freese’s likely arthritic feet/ankles concern me more than Yadi’s possible ailing knees.

  25. Brian Walton says:

    Just saw an MLB Network poll: Which catcher would you most want on your team?

    There were seven choices. Molina was first with 36 percent of the vote.

  26. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    DeWitt, asked whether he sensed momentum when Roman arrived, offered, “I didn’t think he was showing up just to watch batting practice.”

    “Who knows what would have happened if he had gotten to the market?” DeWitt said. “Ultimately, we decided to take advantage of the opportunity we had to get something done before the season started. We’re glad it worked out.”

    Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/cardinal-beat/molina-i-feel-good-here-i-m-glad-we-got/article_e9c63fd4-63d6-11e1-a0b1-0019bb30f31a.html#ixzz1nwQp6bYb

    Pass the lube…………………………………..

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