A repeat of the first day – with different photos, of course. St. Louis Cardinals photos from Sunday’s second session of the 2012 Winter Warm-Up at St. Louis’ Hyatt Regency at the Arch.
Included in row order below are Matt Adams, Brandon Dickson, Daniel Descalso, J.C. Romero, Shelby Miller, Jon Jay, Jason Motte and Shane Robinson, with more to come throughout the day.
The Cardinal Nation subscribers should check out on the main site where I loaded the comments from each of the above Sunday speakers. I did the same Saturday and expect do so for Monday as well.
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Colby gets $2.7M 1 yr contract. Not bad for a .250 hitter.
I take it there have been no deals yet for Motte and Skip.
Skip has a contract. It is McClellan along with Motte who are open. Mo said he is working on them. When we asked Motte where he stood, he said, “That is why I have an agent.” My impression is that neither are close.
400k more than MLBtraderumors guessed it would be. I don’t know, I wasn’t expecting that much.
Colby got that more based on prior year than past year. If he’d duplicated 2010 numbers he’d be near $4 million (and might still be a Cardinal).
I listened to Mo’s comments. He sounded interested in seeing whether Tyler Greene can play 2B full-time, 150+ games, not just in a R/L platoon with Descalso. This makes sense in making up for the loss of HR power from Pujols and Rasmus. Pujols is about a 40 HR guy and Rasmus 20-25. Their replacements are Beltran, 22 HRs last season, and Jay, 10-14 HR power. This puts us down 25 to 30 HRs from Albert and Rasmus.
A way to compensate is with middle infield. Furcal has more power than did Theriot. Greene has more pop than Skip and Punto. Together, Furcal, Greene, Beltran, and Jay can equal the HR potential of Pujols, Rasmus, Theirot, and Schumacker.
Mo said if another deal were to happen, it would probably be a pitcher. And he stated the current ML salary burden was above $110MM. It has been reported the Cards would be willing trade Westbrook or Lohse. This sounds plausible. Mo might welcome a bit of salary relief.
Pujols group probably accounts for 65 HR’s total, I see maybe 50-55 from the new, and I believe I’m being generous. Beltran 25 HR, 10 from both JJ and Furcal. That’s 45. I don’t see Greene being able to keep up with real major league pitching in the Central, thus he’ll find himself riding the pine again and collecting SB’s.
I’m predicting that either Matt, Lance or Carlos out homers Albert this year.
Furcal probably should not play more than about 120 games. Greene can get 42 starts at SS and 112 at 2B. Give Greene 154 starts, he should ring up 15 HRs, from the 8th position in the lineup.
The crush of autographs bothers Yadi huh? Bull. I’ve seen Yadi several times before games signing autographs to groups of people without any signs of discomfort to me. And that was in a much less controlled setting than Winter Warm Up. Something is up with him that does not bode well for re-signing him. Perhaps the Koyie Hill signing was in anticipation that Yadi was not long for the Cardinals. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him traded midseason if they don’t sign him by then.
I also heard that the Cardinals are unhappy with Luhnow’s pillaging of the FO. Lots of interesting tidbits coming out of WWU.
Molina also did not attend WWU last year, though he may also be upset. Rob Rains has a story up today about trading Molina.
I was the one who asked Mo about Luhnow as I heard there was some discomfort. You can listen to all of Mo’s comments unplugged on the main site (for subscribers).
I know he didn’t come last year either, which coincided with some news that things were not so rosy with the Pujols contract talks as I recall. There has been talk that Pujols’ alleged unhappiness with the Cardinals started as far back as two years ago. Yadi has come to WWU in the past, so why the sudden “not comfortable with the crush of autographs” thing? Doesn’t pass my smell test.
The question is whether the “unhappiness” if it existed, extended to Yadi and then what was the source? We will probably never know. If the Cardinals did not negotiate with Pujols in good faith, then that is one thing, but if the source of the unhappiness is “I have an ego bigger than three galaxies and you did not worship me enough”, then that I have a problem with. I have a low tolerance for egomania. And since all we have heard is Albert and Dee Dee’s protestations of being insulted by a $130 million dollar offer, and the whole “Arte made me feel like family” thing, it is not a great leap to wonder whether ego wasn’t a big part of it.
If Molina did not attend WWU last year because he was upset about Albert’s contract negotiations, it sure did not show on the field all season long. Molina had his best season with the bat.
I am not saying Molina won’t try to test the market this fall. If I was him, I would do it whether or not I ever played with Pujols. I am just not trying to connect Molina at or not at being at WWU to Pujols – especially not last year. That feels like a stretch to me.
I may be wrong, but didn’t Yadier miss last year b/c of a family issue? Maybe with his daughter, or something of the sort?
Even after acknowledging that I “called it” last year on Pujols, you still don’t want to take my intuition seriously? Brian, I’m hurt.
I thought WC called it!
On trading Yadi, I was discussing that with Rob as he was writing his article. First of all, I think the odds are low he would traded in-season (as it would imply the Cardinals are tanking). Plus, it seems like they would want to pick up a good catcher as well as prospects in exchange. The other club would probably not want to pay much of anything unless they were assured of signing Molina to an extension. I can’t see why Molina would be inclined to do that with a new relatively-unknown team (even Anaheim?).
Finally – and here is the clincher – draft pick compensation no longer applies for players dealt in-season. If the Cards keep Molina that long, they may as well play it out.
“You apparently saw the shadow and pegged this accurately.” — Dec. 13th post about Pujols grief model.
So it was “pegged it’ and not “called it”. Same difference.
I would rather get some good return in a trade than wait just for draft picks which are at best a crap shoot. Besides, Arte is good at making players feel like family, so why would Molina pass that up?
Good point. All it takes is a couple of phone calls.
or trade him before the season!
I think if the offer is right, you’ve got to consider it. We are not talking about Pujols here.
That’s an option too. I would like to keep Yadi, but not if we have to go through the same song and dance with him that we did with Pujols. All that Bull Durham talk over a full season can become nauseating when you really think they are lying like a cheap Thai watch. If Yadi is pissed off with the Cardinals, whether it is about Albert or something else, I have to believe Mo has some inkling of it already. If you don’t think he is going to sign, trade his backside and get it over with.
Wow, okay, “IF” we were to trade Molina, I’d go for a team like Seattle and request their SS prospect Nick Franklin.
Not to worry, Mo is not going to trade Yadier.
Mo’s fault. I assume Luhnow was under contract when they let him go to the Stros. They could have demanded a no raiding clause (supposedly Boston did that with Epstein).
Fine line to walk. Need to allow people to take promotions or they leave on their own but Houston traveled at least one bridge too far, methinks.
I’d say “Go easy,” c-wmn. I do agree that it would have been preferable for Yadi to have shown up, but I have few doubts that we’ll get 100% effort from him once the season starts. Is he upset or even “hurt” that we weren’t able to keep Albert? Sure, but I know Yadi is a fierce competitor. I, for one, WOULD be surprised if the Cardinals traded Yadi, regardless of whether or not we have him signed by then. I actually expect that he will become a free agent. Will he stay with the Cardinals? I like our chances, but so much can happen before then which can influence decisions. I suggest we wait and see. Then again, there could be some conspiracy, behind-the-scenes, “not about baseball” type activities going on. That’s out of my league to speculate and postulate and permutate and extrapolate upon. I’ll leave that for the experts. I like my rose-colored glasses.
I call ‘em like I see ‘em FM. I have never shied away from that.
Does anyone know if Adams went through that special off season weight training or physical fitness program since his abbreviated stint in the AFL? Or did his injury prevent that? If he did go through it, how does he look?
Adams had a program with a conditioning guy from Penn State. He looked about the same as always to me at WWU.
JJ shaved the Fro. Sigh….
Brian can you photo shop a magnifying glass and pipe into Shelby’s picture? Anyone else think Sherlock Holmes with that hat?
The no trade clauses in Jake and Kyle’s contracts may not be as much impediment as everyone assumes.
I’m fine with going into the season with them holding down the 4-5 spots. They are pitching for contracts next year and could be one of the better back of rotations in MLB.
But that said, if they do look good early on, one of them might fetch something we need at some point. The key is the NT.
If you’re a starter, its hard to pitch for a contract out of the pen. Niether would want to do that. So it might be better to waive the clause and go somewhere to stay in a rotation, than spend the second half as a middle relief guy, then try to market as a starter next winter.
So in theory, if Miller comes up, and one of those guys goes to the pen, the NT may not be a problem.
Westbrook and Lohse are pitching for contracts next season. In Westbrook’s case I think that just got a bit tougher. Joel Pineiro, who has better career numbers than Jake and is the same type of pitcher, could only muster a minor league contract with the Phillies. I would bet that Jake would JUMP at trade if the team trading for him exercises his 2013 option.
Lohse on the other hand? I don’t know how that’ll work.
My understanding is Piniero had to settle for a minor league deal because of health questions. Shoulder I think.
If Jake goes 12-9, 180 IP, he will have no problems.
The loss of both Dunc and Yadi would be a serious one two punch. No way we’d get as much bang for our pitching bucks without what they contributed to the effectiveness of pitchers.
I agree its quite possible Yadi feels orphaned without Albert and Tony. Probably he has the same feeling of entitlement as Albert. I wouldn’t think he thinks much of playing for Matheney, a mere mortal.
But who knows. Let us see if he hits. Lets see if his caught steeling rate bounces back. Lets see if he gets down the line to back up first. If he’s not all in it should be fairly obvious I’d think.
I take crdswmn’s concerns seriously, and also agree with T8 about the possibility of sub-plots.
Perhaps K Hill has a rep for handling pitchers and calling a game. I don’t know. Statistically, he blows.
I think of guys like Rosenthal, Jenkins, Miller and Martinez coming to St. Louis in the next 5 years and having Yadi behind the plate (with eroded offensive numbers or not) seems like a HUGE plus. He makes those kids that much better. Granted they’ve gotten to this point in their young careers without Yadier, but still….sigh, I see Yadi being more valuable to the team as a whole than Albert would have been.
I wonder if Beltran revealed his # selection at WWU?
Yes he did. #3.
excellent.
I noticed niether Cox nor Wong made the Scout.com top 100 prospects list. Jenkins did, along with Taveras, Martinez and Miller.
One has to believe that they are knocking on the door. Wong has shown up in several publications’ top 100 list. Cox was ranked previously, I would guess that there is concern about his power?
Rosenthal is another that is knocking on the door. It wouldn’t surprise me if one of those 3 shows up in BA’s top 100.
I chuckle a bit, b/c I really truly believe that Swaggerty will see the Majors before those 3, and he’ll stick.
Isn’t it grand to have a problem like this? Such depth in the minors, and they are finally starting to gravitate towards the Show.
I miss Luhnow. GL Vuch, big shoes, means……. big socks.
Yes. In case folks missed it, here is the 2012 top 100 announcement. In addition, the top 300 will appear in the spring magazine, the FOX Fantasy/Scout.com Prospect Guide. All annual subscribers as of 1/20 will receive a free copy in the mail when it is published. Others will be able to buy it on newsstands across the country. I wrote and just proofed the final copy for the Cardinals section this past week.
The person who did the top 100 (and 300) is Frankie Piliere, our National Baseball Analyst. He is a former scout with the Texas Rangers. Frankie answered some questions about the top 100 already on The Cardinal Nation message board. He also runs a live chat every Thursday at 1 PM, so there are several ways to ask him his opinion about the two infielders. I know on draft day he was very high on Kolten.
Brian, I’m missing a Post. If you could release it, that would be much appreciated. I’ll try and use Kolten and Zack from now on
Sorry, I guess the spam filter got a bit cranky.
Tee Hee
I agree with some of the posts that suggest Yadi is invaluable as far as the help he would be able to provide to pitchers, esp those coming up.
If he is traded I guess it would be helpful that our Manager was a former catcher and could hopefully help mentor his replacement.
Also, if he is traded I hope it is for someone like Trumbo, as that could help our first base needs going forward.
I wonder if Motte wants ‘closer’ money and the Cards want to pay ’9th inning guy money’.
Does anyone know if Yadi is with the team in Washington DC?
KMac and the Cards just agreed to a deal according to BJ Rains. Didn’t see any details.
Awww. You hurt my feelings. I’ve had an article up on the main site for several hours now.
DOH…….sorry, Brian. I’ll go to timeout now.
Nope.
Oh gee, was anybody shocked that Molina didn’t go to the White House?
“writing on the wall…..”
I don’t know his circumstances, etc, etc. But if this is how he’s choosing to play this out, I don’t think his days as a Cardinal are long. Sad, really sad. Next thing that comes to mind is him holding out of camp, or showing up 1 day late, something like that to make a statement and show he’s pouting.
Then again, it could be like Furcal and it was a scheduling conflict.
And Waino and Oquendo and TLR and ….
I understand why folks are disappointed about Yadi not attending WWU, but let’s be careful not to make it into more than it should be without any evidence…
Waino is doing rehab. TLR I don’t give a crap about because he is what he is.
Brian, I understand your desire to be charitable and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. However, I don’t share that sentiment with Yadi. I believe what I believe.
Being very careful, I was just saying that I can see it playing out that way. It’s classic player is jaded with Owner/FO and then goes on a downward spiral. But, yeah, I know what you are saying, he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I’m sure what ever he decides for 2013, he’ll be the consummate professional in 2012. We’ll just be watching closer at his every move and psycho-analyzing it all “…………………..” included
Molina wasn’t a scheduling conflict. He doesn’t like “the crush of autographs”
If he wants to be a prick, just trade him to the Tigers for somebody. They just lost Victor Martinez for the 2012 season.
When you turn on somebody you really turn on them.
Not that long ago nobody could bash him without getting blasted.
It was a lot longer ago than you think it was. And I haven’t turned on him. I’ve just opened my eyes.
Carl Crawford had his wrist scoped today(?). Holliday’s contract looking better and better. Holliday played most of the year under some sort of ailment and still produced. Good one Moz.
If this info is on the TCN.com page then I’m blind
According to MLBtraderumors’ Arbitration Tracker: KMac deal is for 2.5 million
Motte submitted 2.4 million. Cards submitted 1.5 million. Midpoint being 1.95 million.
I have to say I don’t get that. They are willing to pay KMac 2.5 million but not willing to pay Motte 2.4 million when KMac is the far inferior pitcher?
Its a case where its both about baseball and about service time.
KMac got $1.375 his first time. So the whole range is shifted upward for Motte. Reflecting his superiority on the mound.
But Mac has been through arb before, so he’s on a higher plane.
IMO, it is much the same as with any employer. Both service time and value of contribution affect a person’s pay. Of course, the number of dollars is vastly more.
All the more reason why they should have non-tendered KMac in the first place. Now they put themselves in the position of having to pay KMac more than he is worth. I can understand why Motte didn’t take the 1.5 million they offered him, that is a joke compared to what they offered KMac. I am not impressed.
I expect Motte will get round about 2.0 million from the Cards, which as BB explained will be more than KMac’s 1.375 last year.
Imagine all the fun to be had this time next season with Rzep, Freese and Boggs entering their 1st years of Arb. Add in Motte’s 2nd, and if KMac is still tendered and here, his 3rd.
I believe that will make it tough to retain someone like Berkman. Especially with raises in salary for Jaime and Waino in 2013 vs. 2012. Even with 20 million coming off the books with Lohse and Westbrook departing I would imagine it to be near impossible to retain Berkman. Unless we let Yadi walk?
It seems like we should have guys up from the minors by then. Either to play first, or take over RF from Craig so he can move.
And, like Brian pointed out, the Astros will need a DH in 2013.
On one hand, the pen did fine the end of last year without any real contribution from KMac.
On the other, the vet presense of Dotel is gone.
So Mo has to think about whether paying KMac around $1.5 over a pre-arb guy is money well spent.
There is also the question of if KMac’s ineffectiveness late was due solely to fatigue. We can assume he will bounce back to his pre-starter self, but time will tell.
If a cheaper option emerges at ST something might happen.
All the more reason I would feel a lot more assured if DD was still in the dugout.
Very reasonable comments, BB. The Cardinals aren’t breaking the bank to keep KMac around. Who else would they go out and sign for that sort of money?
They have pitchers in the minors who are better than KMac.
Pitchers with better potential, certainly. Pitchers who could pitch better in the major leagues right now? I’m not as convinced. Plus, there aren’t an endless supply of them and injuries will build up over the season. No reason to cut bait on McClellan so early.
Who else? An experienced righty reliever Mo says. Well, that’s what KMac is, and like you say, $2.5 isn’t breaking the bank.
So Mo wants an experienced righty reliever not named KMac. OK. But the money will be in the 1.5-3.0 range, and we already know Mo didn’t want to spend 3 on Dotel, so presumably doesn’t want to spend 3 period.
So the lower end, then. For a RRP better than KMac with experience.
Any thinking person and true baseball fan would quickly narrow it down to Todd Coffey.
KBB-One would think that the Cards organizxation has faith in Derek Lilliquist`s ability or else he wouldn`t be DD successor.Unless he is also on Crdswmns hit list.
I don’t have a hit list BW. Just a highly developed manipulative liar radar.
Crdswmn-was that radar honed thru years of lawyering?I would think that the lawyering gave you ;pts of chances to give your radar a workout.
Touche’ BW. Yes, dealing with lawyers for 25 years was a big help. So was dealing with dirty businessmen, tax cheats, and professional system gamers. Manipulative liars exist everywhere.
I guess my comment could be interpreted in different ways, but I don’t think it was real ambiguous in that I wasn’t so much trashing the current replacement as holding Mr. Duncan in high regard. I don’t think many would disagree that DD is one of the best pitching coaches around.
No doubt he’ll be missed. Hopefully he will be willing to contribute in some manner at some point. But his heart and mind are elsewhere for the time being, so better to get on with the inevitable page turning.
I am still scratching my head over the Cards unloading both the pen coach and pen catcher these last couple years. Guys under Duncs direct command. And as far as I know, it was not his decision. And at the same time he was signed for two years. Its like somebody ripped a chapter aout of the middle of the book. Perhaps someday it will turn up.