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Matheny is youngest, but not really youngest

At 41 years of age, new St. Louis Cardinals manager Mike Matheny becomes the youngest active skipper in Major League Baseball. The Cleveland Indians’ Manny Acta had been the most youthful at 42.

Much has been said about Matheny’s lack of coaching and managing experience, but he ran games from behind the plate for 13 Major League seasons, during which he earned four Gold Glove Awards. He is the tenth active manager across MLB to have been a catcher during his playing days.

Matheny’s selection is unusual for a franchise that has long employed experienced MLB managers. Excluding interim skipper Mike Jorgensen (1995), Matheny will be the Cardinals’ first first-time MLB manager since Ken Boyer was hired in 1978 and if he can win a title, he will be the first first-time manager to accomplish that with the club since Red Schoendienst.

Though 41 is the youngest across MLB today, it isn’t all that youthful compared to many of Matheny’s predecessors in the job. He will become the 29th manager of the Cardinals over the last century, but only the 13th youngest – near the middle of that population.

However, that is more about the past than recent times. Matheny will be the youngest Cards skipper since 35-year-old Solly Hemus took over in 1959. Hemus’ entire MLB managerial career ran two-plus years, during the first of which he was player/manager. (Matheny also has a two-year deal with a third-year team option.)

Hemus’ relative youth was the rule rather than the exception in the 1950’s. Starting with Marty Marion’s hiring in 1951, five of the next six Cardinals managers (including Hemus) were in their 30’s on April 1 of their first season in the job*. The only exception that decade was interim manager Stan Hack in 1958.

Perhaps it is just circumstantial that none of the five 30-somethings during the 1950’s won a pennant. Despite the presence of future Hall-of-Famer Stan Musial throughout, managers Marion, Eddie Stanky, Harry Walker, Fred Hutchinson and Hemus generally were given less-competitive clubs.

The youngest Cardinals managers in the last century were player-managers. Catcher Roger Bresnahan was 29 years of age when he took over in 1909, two months younger than another future Hall-of-Famer, second baseman Rogers Hornsby, who assumed the managerial job in 1925. At 30, “Rajah” led his 1926 club to the first of 11 Cardinals World Championships.

During the 1933 season, another future Hall resident, Frankie Frisch, took over as player-manager. He was 34. Frisch’s 1934 club brought home the team’s third World Series title.

Other Cardinals managers younger than Matheny when taking over include three more Hall of Famers, Miller Huggins (aged 35 in 1913), Branch Rickey (37 in 1919) and Billy Southworth (36 in his first shot in 1929) along with Bob O’Farrell (32 in 1927) . All except Rickey were active players along with being manager. None of them won the National League pennant (though an older and wiser Southworth later had great success in the 1940’s).

In total, 10 of 12 Cardinals managers whose stints began when they were younger than Matheny did not make the post-season. Hornsby and Frisch were the exceptions. Of course, the 12 managed during a time when the league had eight teams and no wild cards.

As a player, Matheny reached the playoffs three times, all with St. Louis, in 2001, 2002 and 2004. The latter club was swept by the Red Sox in the World Series.

Hornsby and Frisch reached the summit in their first full seasons as manager, but one might argue Matheny’s order is even taller. He is not only being given the challenge to win his first title, but to do it with a defending World Champion.

Courtesy of researcher Tom Orf, here is the full list of Matheny’s 28 managerial predecessors over the last century, presented from most recent to earliest.

DOB Age* 1st? Manager Yrs From To G W L W-L% G>.500 BestFin WrstFin AvRk
10/4/1944 51 no Tony LaRussa 16 1996 2011 2591 1408 1182 0.544 226 1 4 2.1
8/16/1948 46 yes Mike Jorgensen 1 1995 1995 96 42 54 0.438 -12 4 4 4
7/18/1940 49 no Joe Torre 6 1990 1995 706 351 354 0.498 -3 2 6 3.1
11/9/1931 48 no Whitey Herzog HOF 11 1980 1990 1553 822 728 0.530 94 1 6 2.8
5/20/1931 46 yes Ken Boyer 3 1978 1980 357 166 190 0.466 -24 3 5 3.9
7/5/1936 41 yes Jack Krol 2 1978 1980 3 1 2 0.333 -1 4 5 4.7
5/11/1928 48 yes Vernon Rapp 2 1977 1978 179 89 90 0.497 -1 3 5 3.2
2/2/1923 42 yes Red Schoendienst HOF 14 1965 1990 1999 1041 955 0.522 86 1 7 3.5
11/3/1911 49 yes John Keane 4 1961 1964 567 317 249 0.560 68 1 6 3.3
4/17/1923 35 yes Solly Hemus 3 1959 1961 384 190 192 0.497 -2 3 7 5
12/6/1909 48 no Stan Hack 1 1958 1958 10 3 7 0.300 -4 5 5 5
8/12/1919 36 no Fred Hutchinson 3 1956 1958 454 232 220 0.513 12 2 5 3.6
10/22/1916 38 yes Harry Walker 1 1955 1955 118 51 67 0.432 -16 7 7 7
9/13/1915 36 yes Eddie Stanky 4 1952 1955 501 260 238 0.522 22 3 7 4.2
12/1/1917 33 yes Marty Marion 1 1951 1951 155 81 73 0.526 8 3 3 3
10/11/1899 46 yes Eddie Dyer 5 1946 1950 777 446 325 0.578 121 1 5 2.4
8/6/1896 42 yes Ray Blades 2 1939 1940 194 106 85 0.555 21 2 3 2.2
9/24/1890 47 yes Mike Gonzalez 2 1938 1940 23 9 13 0.409 -4 3 6 5.2
9/9/1898 34 yes Frankie Frisch HOF 6 1933 1938 822 458 354 0.564 104 1 6 3.1
3/9/1893 36 y/n Billy Southworth HOF 7 1929 1945 981 620 346 0.642 274 1 4 1.8
9/30/1882 46 yes Gabby Street 5 1929 1933 556 312 242 0.563 70 1 6 3.1
8/7/1886 41 no Bill McKechnie HOF 2 1928 1929 217 129 88 0.594 41 1 4 1.9
10/19/1896 30 yes Bob O’Farrell 1 1927 1927 153 92 61 0.601 31 2 2 2
4/27/1896 29 yes Rogers Hornsby HOF 2 1925 1926 271 153 116 0.569 37 1 4 2.3
12/20/1881 37 no Branch Rickey HOF 7 1919 1925 947 458 485 0.486 -27 3 7 4.8
4/9/1875 42 yes Jack Hendricks 1 1918 1918 133 51 78 0.395 -27 8 8 8
3/27/1878 35 yes Miller Huggins HOF 5 1913 1917 774 346 415 0.455 -69 3 8 5.4
6/11/1879 29 yes Roger Bresnahan HOF 4 1909 1912 618 255 352 0.420 -97 5 7 6.2

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Brian Walton

Brian Walton runs The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation Blog, covering the St. Louis Cardinals and minor league system.
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53 Responses to “Matheny is youngest, but not really youngest”

  1. JumboShrimp says:

    Mike Matheny is younger than southpaw reliever Arthur Rhodes.

  2. Kansasbirdman says:

    Westie got it right!
    He must have a crystal ball.
    Too bad we can’t decipher more of what he posts.

  3. Kansasbirdman says:

    Man, I’m gone a week and it seems like a year!
    RC, if you’re out there I have both tags filled. I’m 2 for 2, got my doe two weeks ago, and my buck a week ago Saturday. He was over 200 lbs field dressed and was a 152.5″ nine pointer. 18 inch spread inside. Both were harvested with a bow, and now my freezer is filled. 🙂
    I’ve never been done this early in the season, and the weather is just now getting cold. I don’t think I’ve got getting outdoors out of my system yet, still have a turkey tag, may try to get that filled with my bow.
    After that got sick as a dog for two days. Missed my first day (ended up being two) of work in six years. Thought it was food poisoning.

    Anyway, the question, I think this was kinda brought up, is what happens to Jose Oq? And, what does this do to Albert, Jose and Albert are like peanut butter and jelly. My grandpa works at a St. Louis area golf course and sees Jose and AP golfing there together quite often. Also, Jose can outdrive Ap by a decent margin.
    I digress, another question is, what if the Cubs hire J Oq in a bid to entice AP? (assuming he is more friendly with JO than MMat and his loyalty is more there than to St. Louis and assuming a lot else let’s be honest)
    And then, how much salary was TLR making per annum? How much does that put back into the pot for payroll?

    • crdswmn says:

      THe PD has a story quoting Oquendo as saying he wants to stay. Albert from all accounts has a very good relationship with Matheny as well. Matheny does some work in the Dominican with Albert from what I understand.

      I believe TLR was making in the neighborhood of 4.5 million. Matheny won’t get that.

    • Brian Walton says:

      If a major consideration in signing an eight- or 10-year contract is the identity of a coach who could be fired next week or year, Pujols is much less savvy than I think he is.

      • Kansasbirdman says:

        AP article on Fox Sports says that part of Pujol’s offer from Cards in offseason 2010 included share of franchise. I never heard that, is that the CW or has that been confirmed?

        • RCWarrior says:

          Like i stated earlier, BD just can’t let Albert leave St. Louis imo. WC believes otherwise and WC has been on the money with his predictions but I just don’t see AP leaving.

      • RCWarrior says:

        Yea, I’m sure Albert has used his power in years past to get a lot of things he wants but he is a free agent now and that gives him little or no say in the Cardinals goings on. TLR got most of his power from Albert, and I’ve heard that from numerous baseball higher ups. If Albert had signed early on I do believe Jose would have gotten a longer look but I just don’t believe Jose is qualified to manage.

        I do believe there is a chance that ALbert signs somewhere else now just because he will not have the run of the place like he did with TLR at the helm. Now I still believe there is a 99% chance he signs with the Cardinals but he will look for a crazy offer out there and could bite on something that is outrageous. The Marlins would be the one place that I believe he would consider. Close to the dominican and the fan base would be largely latino which would make him more of a GOD than he is in St. Louis. Those Latino’s stick together and would love Albert as much as he could be loved.

        Nice job on already killing your limit. In Alabama you would be able to kill as many as you could kill. deer are like ants down here…..everywhere.

        Colby and Cyle have killed 5 and 6 already…..all nice deer Colby with a really nice 14 point buck. Colby and Tim Hudson each got themselves a nice deer yesterday at Timmy’s hunting lodge right outside of town. Both shot nice 12’s. Muzzle loader season starts tomorrow so I’m sure they will lay the bows aside for a few days.

        I’m still unable to see much out of my right eye so I’m on the sidelines until at least Dec 21 when I have my next surgery.

        • Kansasbirdman says:

          Wow, no wonder you all can feed 50 people with venison.

          I can still get a doe tag for my area, but need to use up some meat first. I think I’m going to fire up the dehydrator and make a bunch of jerky. Good for christmas presents.

          Two things I haven’t done with a bow is get a turkey and a feral hog. I hope to do that in the next few months. I may end up doing both on our lease in Texas, if I’m allowed to get away for a weekend.
          Hope your surgery goes well. You may have to end up getting a left-handed bow like my friend who accidently shot himself in the eye with a nail gun (richochet). He said it was surprisingly easy to get used to and has already harvested a buck after 3 months of practice.

          • RCWarrior says:

            I’ve got a guy who is the head of one of the firing ranges at Ft. Benning Ga who has killed some 300 and 400 pound Boar hogs with a bow. They are massive creatures with huge tusks. I am hoping to get a chance to kill one of those monsters this spring.

            • Kansasbirdman says:

              Holy cow! I killed a 280 lb boar in west texas. That is fun country to hunt. They don’t get much bigger than that there though. I hear the Southeastern ( Louisiana on east )ones get pretty big. The ones in Texas are mixed with some russian/european wild hogs as well as the feral variety. They get pretty hairy too. They like that in the SE?
              If you don’t get a place to hunt round your parts you can tag along with me when I go to Texas next year.

  4. Brian Walton says:

    In case anyone missed it, I added a three-minute summary video of Matheny’s remarks from this morning plus a Jim Hayes interview with the new manager in the earlier article on the main site.

  5. blingboy says:

    Will we see any difference in Matt Holliday in the Tonyless era? He’s put up pretty good numbers but hasn’t been the offensive force I expected, and hasn’t seemed to play with much enthusiasm at times (or maybe intensity is a better word?). It has seemed at times like his heart and mind weren’t in it, much like Colby. Maybe he will become more Berkmanesque.

    And Yadi now will play for his one-time mentor. Does anyone recall Matheney’s running habits out of the box?

    It seems like I read somewhere that Mo sees Skip as more of a utility outfielder than an IF-OF. Skip is/was a TLR guy if there ever was one. We’ll see what his future holds. IMO he’s darn usefull and I’d like to see him back and see how Matheny would emlpoy him.

    Good to hear you guys talk of enjoying the hunting season. I don’t go anymore. The deer are think in east central Missouri. I traded my nice Mossberg to my brother for a Henry .44 lever action that he didn’t like. Don’t know what I’ll use it for, but it sounds kool at the range.

    • Kansasbirdman says:

      I got a buddy that used to hunt the state (or is it national) forests north of springfield, MO. How do you make your sauer-braten then if you don’t have venison?

      That rifle would still do well on a deer or hog BB, at close range.

      I too like Skip, don’t forget that in a jam he can pitch too! I think he is more than adequate at second, he offers a pretty reliable left-handed bat (I wonder if MM will be back as batting coach?) and he has a rocket of an arm for an outfielder. The game we were at he threw out a Cub’splayer from right field trying for home and killed a rally. I will have to go back and see which player it was, I remember the crowd going wild at the time. I don’t think it ever hurts to have a player with a great work ethic on the team.

      • crdswmn says:

        Do you fish K? I don’t hunt, I’m scared of deadly weapons, but I do love to fish. Haven’t been fishing in years because I don’t have anyone to fish with anymore.

        • Kansasbirdman says:

          I like to fish too. I haven’t been for awhile. I love crappie, but the strip pits (old strip mines that are now filled with water that are ubiquitous around SE Kansas) on the place I have permission to hunt and fish don’t have crappie. They do have decent catfish and surprisingly big largemouth bass. The bass bite the best in May-June, but they also are active again round this time of year when they are loading up for winter. All of the lakes, ponds and pits are down this year because of the lack of rainfall. Don’t know what affect it has had on the population.

          What kind of fishing do you to crdswmn? I must confess I am no expert fisherman as far as what lures work best for different situations, but I can usually find fish in places I’m familiar with.
          There is also a deep spring fed pit about 20 miles from where I live that they stock with lake trout every winter that I have been wanting to try out. I hear it is pretty fun, and if they don’t bite your lure you can catch them with canned corn! I haven’t gotten my jonboat registered because I havn’t had anyone to go with either. All the private land I have fished I haven’t needed it.

          • crdswmn says:

            I do mostly lake fishing, though my father took me trout fishing (cold water stream) once when I was about 14. We used cheese for bait. I have never tried fly fishing, and at my age I am not sure it is something I could learn. I prefer live bait, worms mostly (crickets are too hard for me to handle). I do have a collection of lures that I got from my dad, but I have yet to use them. I don’t like to use bobbers on the line, I do better without them. Ironically enough, though I love to catch fish, I am not big on eating them, which is why I like to have other people around who are willing to take the fish I catch. I never learned to clean them, my father always did that, and since I don’t keep them it hasn’t been necessary for me to learn. Like I said, I haven’t fished in years, so I no longer have a fishing license, though they are easy enough to get, at least here in MO.

            • Kansasbirdman says:

              Kansas too -I think out of state licenses would be cheap for fishing. If you don’t eat fish, you just haven’t had it cooked right. Same with wild game. Apparently that stocked pit has pretty good fishing. If you are ever this way during the winter. Maybe your brother will want to visit his alma mater?

              • crdswmn says:

                Well my brother’s alma mater is Mizzou, but if you mean where he used to teach, I doubt it. I don’t think he left there under amiable circumstances. But if I am ever in the vicinity, I will definitely get in touch.

                I will eat some fish, but usually it is ocean fish, not river or lake fish.

      • blingboy says:

        One of my boys hunts and I always get some care packages from my brothers-in-law. The Henry uses the same rounds as my personal defense weapon so I thought it would be practical. But those darn feral squirrels better stay off my lawn.

        • Kansasbirdman says:

          Hah! My dog has taken to catching squirrels, but she tears em up too much to eat. Your .44 would probably leave even less edible meat on a squirrel!

          • blingboy says:

            Have to go for a head shot.

          • crdswmn says:

            My father was a rabbit and squirrel hunter in his day, but that was something I was not interested in taking up. My eldest brother went with him a couple of times, but just didn’t get into it. He doesn’t fish either. My younger brother never did either, so I was the only one of my dad’s kids who would fish with him. My dad used to say (outside of the earshot of my brothers) that I was more of a son to him in some ways than either of my brothers. 🙂 We all loved sports, including my mom, so that was a family affair, but the outdoor stuff was me and my dad. I was less finicky about getting dirty.

            Unlike the fish, I did eat the rabbit and the squirrel. I prefer squirrel.

  6. blingboy says:

    The Cards did well without a $50M closer. Some blown saves isn’t the end of the world. The Phillies are crazy. They think they are the Yankees.

  7. Brian Walton says:

    Absolutely cherish this paragraph from Gordo’s column today…

    “Jocketty loyalists maintained a dismissive view of the Memphis graduates. Their views got wide media play, even from the Cardinal TV broadcast crew.”

    Those darned TV rascals, always stirring up trouble… 😉

  8. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    No one wants to pitch at Anderson ……they need to turn him over……………….. You have to Love Florida…….. A very interesting situation developing…………… money would position themselves to snap off Haley Ramirez…………… Florida begins to shape the case against a collusion grievance…..
    the herd dogs pushing AP toward his destination all the while………….. Gordon pretty much covered the loose ends surrounding the “historical rewrite”……….. what a guy……….. the Cardinals won it all……..had they not made the playoff……….. pretty much the same outcome could have been expected……… It would have needed an extra larger tube of lube is all……………… I have to guess that Oquendo and Big Mac are history…. and as they go, it seem meaningless to keep Pettini………. they may keep McKay as a statement of continuity………..and to keep Dave company……… I like the changes……… We could give Tony a roasting………but I see no point……. a curious point for the very informed…….. Tony appeared to lead a pogrom against a few Cardinal players and their contracts……..even after he was a “lame ducked” bleeding from the rear………. was this Mo/BD trying to get some work done….trying exploit his situation a bit? or was this Tony trying to create/enhance AP’s foundation as he understood it at the time? Greene certainly was targeted to enlist Tony’s cooperation……….which Tony fought tooth and nail………..for more reasons than “winning baseball”…………. …………… it doesn’t matter at this point really………. but for those of you that might enjoy seeing all the dots connected as you learn to appreciate the work of a real pro…. yes, that Billy D. I’m talking about………………. he knows the to sign AP………..appearing to save 80 million, would cost him……with everyone else in a collusion grievance ………. so those of you that think thats still possible ……….. time to wring out those handkerchief and move on…………. watching how the league works the Collusion however…….. could be an education for some of you……

    • crdswmn says:

      Okay I want to read the end of this book now, so where exactly is Albert’s “destination”? Or does it matter to the Collusion as long as it isn’t St. Louis? You have been right on up til now so reveal please. 🙂

      • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

        ?????????? Study the threads…………..its all there…………. what were the very expensive…and resent concessions made in LA that resolved the McCourt objections to the sale of the Dodgers? And so timely………. ?????????? I always thought Washington was the Target……….. Marlins clearly not a player………….. AP is the pawn of Bud Selig at this point………… he will be sent to fill a need….. its just not in St Louis that he’s needed ……………….. Picture this…. Pujols/Molina vs Mike Matheny….iver jogging privileges…………with Dave D. and the country club boys having to choose sides? …… Ain’t going to happen …………Mo is torching bridges as fast a he can………… Mark/Jose/Pettini will be part of the next arson attempt……….. Furcal’s agent isn’t stupid………he’s working to find a new team……….. BD will do things just like he wants……..because either he is looking like a genius….or Matheny is looking like the goat that was just too young and inexperienced………. BD’s on a roll……. he won the fight …………. and now the savings moves begin ………… we will do nothing under the pretext of saving every penny for AP……….. and then the golden bid will come in from the designated team that will give Albert something in the 190’s range at over 26……… Cards will then sigh a few folks from the dead pool in discouraged resignation……….. they likely let Skip and Punto become floaters………… I’m wandering of anyone will touch Theriot…………

        • RCWarrior says:

          I am interested to watch the Yadi/Albert battle with Matheny that is coming. There is no doubt that Mike is gonna be the type of guy who will be fair to everyone, the type who wants to bring everyone together, the type who may not give Albert the leeway to come and go as he pleases. I know for a fact that the younger players are partying like its 1999 over the Matheny hire.

          Funny you mention Dave Mc……he is the one guy who had some individual thoughts. The others you mentioned were so far up TLR’s butt they they had to ask Tony when they needed to take a leak.

          It is always fun to watch the hot stove when it starts heating up and this year will be no different.

          • Kansasbirdman says:

            It will be different, because it will be the hot stove to the Extreme. 🙂
            Especially since we have the games (current) biggest FA in AP
            and, because as a Cards fan there is so much going on, and so many changes.
            But, I know what you meant. 🙂

  9. Bw52 says:

    So let`s see now.
    Albert is gone.
    Oquendo gone
    Big Mac gone
    Molina at odds with Matheny
    Coaches divided
    Furcal gone
    Dewitt only concerned with saving money
    Theriot gone
    Selig pulling strings to decide Alberts new team

    Did i miss anything Westie?
    What should all your revelations be filed under? Fiction or fantasy?

    • RCWarrior says:

      So let`s see now.

      Albert is gone. I say Albert cannot go anywhere else.99/1

      Oquendo gone. This is a possibility 50/50

      Big Mac gone. I think so 100/0

      Molina at odds with Matheny. With Albert around possibly, without Albert never happen.

      Coaches divided. Those coaches are followers so they will do what they are told.

      Furcal gone. Yes 90/10

      Dewitt only concerned with saving money. No, Making money. 🙂

      Theriot gone. Yes 100/0

      Selig pulling strings to decide Alberts new team. Interesting thought by WC, and he has been consistent with these conspiracy theories so we’ll just have to wait and see where this goes.

      • Bw52 says:

        RCW-you think AP stays.I think he realizes things will be better in STL…………chance for repeat.comfort zone…legacy etc; i agree with you.
        Oquendo-who knows…………………will he stay as a loyal organization man or be bitter and leave?

        Big Mac-why leave? team hit better this year.

        Molina/Matheny-why should there be a problem.Wasn`t Matheny a mentor for Yadi……….i would think those two would be in agreement

        Furcal-Furcals money demands will decide his fate.
        Theriot-he will be a non-tender because of salary IMO.could be off man out if Punto returns
        Selig grassy knoll theory just too far out to even consider.

        • RCWarrior says:

          I don’t think Oquendo is/will be bitter. I believe he could possibly see that he has been pigeonholed as a good instructor but since he has been under Tony for so long he may feel the need to break away from the stigma he has………which is a good infield instructor who has not been allowed to develop any managerial skills because of his situation under Tony. In other words he may just need a fresh start somewhere else. If he decides to stay then he reakizes that he may never manage would be my take.

          Big Mac would not be missed imo. The team decided on going with hitters who hit like he wanted them to rather than teaching any of the other guys to hit his way. He has great ideas but he does not possess at this time the ability to get his points across to hitters. imo.

        • crdswmn says:

          Albert–His pride is his overriding principle. He goes where the highest offer is.
          Oquendo–He stays if allowed to.
          Molina/Matheny–Maybe but I doubt it.
          Coaches- Whoever remains will get along fine.
          Furcal -I think Mo wants to give Greene a try. He stays only if he’s cheap.
          DeWitt–Of course it’s only about money, this is America.
          Theriot- Gone
          Selig and Collusion- not into conspiracies but stranger things have happened. He is on a roll ruining baseball as we know it, so why not?

  10. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Molina is will be fine without AP…..that was what was suggested. It appears Jose might stay, but I’d guess with a different designation…….. I like the coming changes……. 99/1 AP returns…………..I put you in a box with a shopping cart with that bet……………… DeWitt is in a good position….. He won’t have to spend this year. In the future that may prove interesting……………. Just to clear something up…..this whole thing appears to the public that its AP’s greed that DeWitt is revealing……….. thats BS………..if you study you will see that these points have already be predicted and validated. The only variable I didn’t consider is that very improbable WS……….BD is the luckiest man alive………. as we are lucky Texas kept walking Albert…… was like a miracle…………….. bottom line…….and this is it…….TLR was so incompetent in the end……… we could not do worse tactically…….. Everything I see looks positive, and DeWitt’s sensibilities in this momentary bubble of euphoria………..looks like improvements to me….. ………………………. something that might be difficult to see………BD has been in a position to “learn” AP’s real age……. he appears to have an ACE tucked somewhere……… that would pretty much explain a lot of peculiarities in the on going “psycho-drama”………… but hey…..the earth might be flat………..who knows………..

    • crdswmn says:

      I’ve never supposed it to be greed for Albert, but pride. Pride in terms of status, not money, I think the money is secondary. If Albert’s age is in question, a normal decline in abilities is to be expected. If that is the case, Albert’s pride would dictate he receive the desired status ASAP before that decline becomes obvious to other teams. If BD is already aware of Albert’s decline, then why make him a substantial offer to begin with? 9yrs/200MM is a lot of money for a player that you know is not going to be worth it in the long term unless you are 100% sure it will not be accepted. Does BD know his offer will be trumped by some other team and that he can sit on his offer and let Albert walk? If the Collusion is to direct Albert to another team, surely BD would not use any info he has to derail another team from signing Albert. The only purpose I see for keeping the age “ace” is perhaps to use in case Albert doesn’t get a better offer or decides to accept BD’s original offer and BD wants to justify withdrawing it. I am trying to think like you WC, but you are still the man for conspiracies. 🙂

      • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

        You can’t examine the dynamics of a situation………and then call your observations “conspiracies”.
        Its just business…………………… to some……………… Facts…no one has seen an offer sheet to AP for that type of jack……… those numbers might have been talked about…….but only after BD was positive they would be rejected…………thats what happened………. Pujols put his trust in Lozano…” I Trust my life with this guy”, is what he said……….. he is hung out there now……… and BD will not make an offer until the market is established…….if at all……. Tony played his best hand this year………he stepped over the line with his Colby attack………he made his decision then…all or nothing…….he made his final concession to get Furcal…thats when he technically was retired………… there were other factors but thats a dead issue now for me…………. AP could have done irreparable damage to this organization……but that was never in his interest………..the assumption that the Cardinals will be competitive is the last device/illusion AP/Lozano has…..this assumes that they will come in around the high bid and force the competition upward…….so if anyone wants to bid, they better give DeWitt a good excuse not to make a public offer……….. and thats what will happen……..DeWitt crushed AP with the Freese MVP. Alberts last pinch was the 3 hr game…… and that whole thing was a miracle opportunity for us to see the action. We lose a few, Braves win a few, you would have see all the same moves as being made now………. our tails between our legs……DeWitt did fantastical thing to get in this position……he will not pass that up…….signing AP now would be stupid for him ……… the war is over……….I think that if Fielder slides away….we crush the division next year without AP……Holiday hitting 335 with 35 hacks……Berkman matching them………….. we are a better team now………… knowing whats going to happen isn’t going to make this any better if you’re an AP lover……..he needs to go through this challenge to become the player he believes himself to be…………… he knows whats happening……….

        • crdswmn says:

          Sorry, WC, you are the man for “unique observations”. 🙂

          I wouldn’t call myself an AP lover WC, so knowing what is going to happen would not not be too traumatizing. 🙂

    • Nutlaw says:

      I think that I have to object to the characterization of the team entirely relying upon luck and the statement that TLR couldn’t have done worse tactically. The players, manager, and front office do deserve some credit here. The team has won its second World Series in six seasons. That’s pretty darned good! What more were you expecting?

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