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Brian Walton's news and commentary on the St. Louis Cardinals (TM) and their minor league system

Flap over Cardinals ticket seating to Brewers party

As reported by ESPN, the St. Louis Cardinals have changed their ticket policy for family members and friends of their NLCS opponent, the Milwaukee Brewers, upsetting the visitors in the process.

In the first round, the Philadelphia Phillies contingent received seats in a designated area behind home plate. The Cardinals were afforded the same courtesy in Milwaukee in Games 1 and 2. This appears to be the standard around baseball.

Instead, the Cardinals have moved the Brewers gang to a mix of party suites down the right field line and other seats sprinkled among the regular game attendees.

Some, including Brewers outfielder Nyjer Morgan, are angry, calling the move “bush” and accusing the Cardinals of gamesmanship.

Let’s consider this.

First, do the math. The first 130-150 tickets are in party suites, a secure area. If you assume as many as 35 players, coaches and the like, that is roughly four family members each. While secure, they are clearly further from the action.

The other 200 freebies may not be immediate family members, anyway. Whoever they are, are they wearing big tags with their names on them or carrying identifying signs saying “I am a friend of Nyjer Morgan”? Of course, they are not.

There will be plenty of Milwaukee supporters in Busch Stadium, whether in team colors or undercover. This isn’t exactly New York we are talking about here.

I suspect this issue is rooted in the Cardinals maximizing revenue generating areas of the park. It wouldn’t be the first time that has driven one of their decisions, though this may be the first time it closely affects players.

However, making this change between rounds makes the Cardinals appear to be acting in a punitive manner. Despite the Cards saying there has been no change in their policy in recent years, why did the Brewers this week not receive the same courtesy as the Phillies last week?

When in Milwaukee, did something else happen to irritate the Cardinals? For example, earlier this season, there were accusations that the banner lighting in Miller Park was being used to disrupt the concentration of St. Louis hitters.

Though not related, I recall a flap during the 2004 World Series after the Red Sox assigned the Cardinals an out-of-way hotel. Lack of adequate food facilities upon a late night arrival and transportation snags angered some in the St. Louis contingent.

Whatever is behind the ticket change, based on the initial information available, the Cardinals don’t come out of this looking particularly hospitable.

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100 Responses to “Flap over Cardinals ticket seating to Brewers party”

  1. crdswmn says:

    Is it really a change? In the comment section of that article, someone posted that the Cardinals did the same thing with the Mets in 2006. The NLDS tickets and NLCS tickers are much different in price, so I don’t see the change between rounds as relevant. The question is whether the Brewers are being treated differently than other NLCS visiting teams and if that commenter is correct they are not.

    • Brian Walton says:

      If accurate, that could explain why the Cards say they are being consistent when it is apparently different from what they did in the first round this year.

    • RCWarrior says:

      Regardless if they did this back in 2006 or not the fact remains that most every team places the family in a secure location. Not necessarily secure from other people but secure from line drives and the like. And while balls can fall on people behind the netting around the plate they are less likely to be hit with shots off the bat behind the plate. And I would think that in the playoffs where most wives attend every game with their children that safety would more of a pressing issue. Just seems like the better way to handle it would be to keep the family behind the plate.

      • RCWarrior says:

        I don’t like it and it has the smell of bad karma wrapped all around it. :)

      • crdswmn says:

        Wait, how is sitting in a party suite going to make the family members more susceptible to getting hit with a ball? You can stay inside for the whole game if you want. 150 tickets is enough for immediate family members. Are the Cardinals required to keep some player’s frat brother safe from foul balls? This isn’t bad karma, it is the Brewers stirring up crap.

        • RCWarrior says:

          If all of the wives and kiddies are located inside of an enclosed area I would feel differently. I still don’t think they should be scattered throughout the stadium but I don’t see that as a huge deal. The fact that this is obviously a change in protocol does seem to stir the Brewers players up. I say this…..if they don’t like it, win a few games, go back to Milwaukee and put the Cardinals families right on the right field line……..on the front row. Thats how you handle that.

          I will admit they sound a lot like TLR with the crying game stuff. :)

          • crdswmn says:

            But it isn’t a change apparently. The Brewers just want to sit behind home plate and they are covering it up with the bogus safety issue. Are they going to complain now that their family members are not being given the same kind of food the Cardinals’ family members received? “This is an outrage, the Cardinals are making us drink Bud Lite instead of Miller Lite!” “Call Bud Selig now!”

            • Brian Walton says:

              It IS a change. It is a change from other organizations, apparently. More importantly, it is a change from what the Cardinals themselves did in the DS. (Of course, this assumes the ESPN article was accurate in its depiction.) Without that explanation of why, the Cardinals motives will be open to question. (I am trying to get that answer.)

              • crdswmn says:

                Is there some MLB rule about where family members sit? I got the impression from the article that it is up to the individual organization. If there is no rule that all organizations do it the same way, how is it a problem for the Cardinals? If the Cardinals policy is consistent and not singling out the Brewers, I don’t see the issue.

              • crdswmn says:

                A commenter from VEB who lives in Phoenix and went to one of the NLDS games there said the family section for the Brewers was not behind home plate but was on the first base side. She said she knows this because she sat there. Anecdotal evidence only, of course. ;)

            • RCWarrior says:

              I will ask you this Crdswmn……what do you think Tony would come out and say if the Cardinals families had been scattered to the 4 corners in Milwaukee?

              • crdswmn says:

                See this is the problem I am having. To whom are the other 200 tickets going? If they are just going to friends or distant relatives then I think this is just a red herring. If wives and children and parents are being put in the party suites, then it seems to me the beef is with location of the seats, not the safety. I admit I look at this through a lawyer’s eye, and unless the Cardinals are departing from their existing policy just to piss off the Brewers, I don’t see the problem.

                As for TLR, I don’t give a damn what he would say. If the Brewers put players’ children in harm’s way, I think what TLR said about it would be the least of their problems.

                • RCWarrior says:

                  I don’t think it is a huge problem, but it is definitely a change in policy from what most clubs do. Thats what makes it look worse than it probably is. Like I said, if they don’t like it, win a game and force the Cardinals to travel back to Milwaukee and put them all over the stadium. Like Tony always says, you hit our guy we are gonna hit your guy.

                  • crdswmn says:

                    You know what I think the crux of this whole thing is? Who wrote this article? ESPN. The media has been ratcheting up the attention on this “bad blood” thing from the get go for one reason—ratings. They want more people to watch these games and so they create this impression that there is going to be fisticuffs and blood flowing to get people to tune in. And the one Brewer they get to comment? Nyjer Morgan, the biggest attention whore in MLB. The media is creating the controversy. I doubt it is hard to find something for someone to bitch about, so go talk to the one most likely to bitch and see what you can come up with and go from there. Greinkegate apparently wasn’t enough and if Ticketgate doesn’t work well enough, the media will look for something else.

                    • Brian Walton says:

                      That feels like a reach to me. ESPN isn’t televising the playoffs. The Brewers brought forward concerns to the union and MLB. ESPN learned about it, asked questions and reported it. Unless it is proven later that the facts were misrepresented, I see no issue whatsoever with what ESPN did.

                    • crdswmn says:

                      If there is controversy for ESPN to report on, it increases ratings for them. If more people watch the games, then more people will tune in to ESPN to watch the reporting on the game. Don’t be surprised if this issue doesn’t get brought up by other media outlets as well. It all snowballs. Do we know how ESPN learned about it? I know as a media person Brian it is natural for you to feel defensive about media attacks. I feel the same way about lawyer hatred, even though there is some basis for it. But all this focus on “bad blood” by all the media is so obviously an attention ploy.

                    • crdswmn says:

                      That was supposed to be “does get brought up by other media outlets”

                    • Brian Walton says:

                      I don’t blindly support the media just because they are the media. Nor do I condemn them for reporting the news (if they get it right).

                      The level of interest in this particular item is going to vary.

                    • crdswmn says:

                      I wan’t suggesting you blindly support the media, just like I don’t blindly support all lawyers. If that is the way it came out, I apologize.

                      This is my perception. I am not the only one who perceives it that way, but there are probably just as many who don’t.

                    • Brian Walton says:

                      I wasn’t offended so no apology required.

              • STLfan51 says:

                Now who sounds whiny?

                And to Nyjer: You’re in line to tell others what is “bush” or not? Really??!!!! Cheap shotting a catcher with his back to you? Calling a grown man by a woman’s name? Throwing tobacco at an opponent? Really?!!!!

                To Brian: As a journalist, are you ever amazed at the responses you continue to get from some guys? I realize they open their own mouths for attention, and your job is to get their quotes. But after his antics you’d think his team would calm him down a bit. You know, pissing off the best player on the planet and all probably wasn’t the best of strategies… And yet he still yaps given the opportunity. I’m amazed but not around it everyday, your thoughts?

  2. blingboy says:

    I like the photo of Nyger in a Nats cap.

  3. blingboy says:

    “The team plans to distribute 40,000 rally towels with a squirrel motif for Game 3 of the NL championship series Wednesday night against Milwaukee.”

  4. crdswmn says:

    Brian, do you know what the rainout policy is for ticket holders? I have a ticket for Game 4. If Game 3 is rained out, will Game 4 be moved to Friday? Are the tickets specific to the game or the night? I need to know whether I would still go on Thursday or be moved to Friday.

    • Brian Walton says:

      This is not official, but this is what I believe would happen.

      Game 3 rained out, moved to Thursday
      Game 4 moved to Friday
      Game 5 moved to Saturday (currently open day)

      The tickets are for the game, not the day.

      • crdswmn says:

        Here is what the PD is reporting.

        http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_cdc32e1c-f4cf-11e0-8dc6-001a4bcf6878.html#ixzz1aaAX5eLx

        Sounds like the Game 3 ticket holders will attend the makeup game on Saturday and the rest will remain the same.

        • Brian Walton says:

          I guess we will see. The writer of that article, “Staff Reports,” was simply going off his/her recollection, just as was I.

          • crdswmn says:

            A couple of posters on VEB said they called the ticket office and were told the Game 3 tickets were for Saturday, unless MLB told them otherwise. Don’t know how accurate this is either, though as I recall this is how it was done when one of the 2006 WS games was rained out.

            • crdswmn says:

              When I think about it, it makes sense to have Game 3 ticket holders attend on Saturday. That way the schedules of only Game 3 attendees are affected and not the schedules of the attendees of all 3 games, which is what would happen if everyone was slid ahead a day. It would inconvenience me to attend on Friday, since I have plans to travel to KC on Friday for the weekend and it would mess up my plans to have to travel on Saturday instead. Which is why MLB will probably cause me to have to do it that way because they are douchey that way. :)

        • Brian Walton says:

          Here is the Yankees’ policy, for example.

          “In the event that any postseason game is not played to completion, as defined by MLB, or is rescheduled, the Ticket that bears that postseason game’s number (i.e., American League Division Series Home Game 1, Home Game 2, Home Game 3, American League Championship Series Home Game 1, Home Game 2, Home Game 3, Home Game 4 or applicable World Series Game) is to be used for the next postseason game scheduled to be played at the Stadium.”

          Other teams do not appear to have documented their policy as clearly. It looks like it may be a local call.

        • Brian Walton says:

          KSDK sees it sliding…

          “Game three ticket-holders would go Thursday.”

          They also note 2006 was handled differently.

          This is just a guess as to its relevance, but in the interim since 2006, MLB changed their post-season rainout policy in that all games must now be completed. That obviously has a resulting ticketing impact that could have driven a change here, too.

          • crdswmn says:

            My question is why would it be relevant to MLB which people attend what game? I understand the logistical side of just sliding the games a day ahead, but as long as there are people at those games, what is the interest of MLB? There may be one that I just don’t readily see.

          • Brian Walton says:

            Joe Strauss now Tweeting exactly what I have been saying all along regarding tickets sliding one day. He didn’t mention his paper apparently being wrong about it, though, including whoever runs their Weatherbird twitter id, who posted the opposite just before Strauss. ;-)

  5. JumboShrimp says:

    The Brewers should just relax. Everything will turn out happily.

    (After the Brewers fold, Mo plans to release every single last one of the hostages!)

    • JumboShrimp says:

      Here is how I think this must have happennned…..

      Mo reads this blog. Thus Mo knows about the hex prowess of Octavio Dotel. So Mo figures, if we have inadvertently added a wily player with strong hexing powers, I should consult with Octavio about how we can jinx the Brewers.

      While voodoo is most associated with the nation of Haiti, this is the west side of the island of Hispianola, two-thirds of which is the Dominican Republic, where Octavio was born. It is perhaps little appreciated that Dotel is a French name, for instance common in Quebec as may be seen from this link:
      http://www.hotfrog.ca/Companies/Dotel-Airbrush

      Is it any surprise that a Dominican with French heritage would know a little bit about black magic? When Mo consulted with Octavio, Dotel thought very hard about how best to hex the Brew Crew and play with the minds of Nyger and his friends.

      Finally the wily veteran suggested: before the Brewers ask for seats for their families behind home plate, simply tell them “don’t ask, do tel” your families they shall have to sit elsewhere.

      During the remaining games of this series, we shall find out who Octavio has hexed. The Phillies families sat behind home, yet they lost. Maybe sitting behind home is the hex and Octavio has now hexed Mo by moving the Brewers families out of the jinxed section of the stadium, to the lucky boxes up the right field line.

      Or, perhaps the Brewers shall lose the Series and Mo will be able to thank Octavio for his voodoo tip that enables Octavio to finally pitch in a World Series, after a long career.

      Either outcome, as with so many issues within the realm of magic, it will be hard to know for sure about Octavio’s magic influence.

  6. chicagocardinal says:

    The question remains (as it was not mentioned in the original article…)

    HOW MANY tickets did the Brewers give the Cardinals behind home plate?
    150? 350?

    If it’s 350… then our boys should offer roughly the same, IMO.
    If it was 150, then we’ve given an upgrade.

    Just sayin.

    • Brian Walton says:

      My interpretation is that the gripe is because of the perception of unequal treatment.

      Welcome, chicagocardinal.

      I heard a great line yesterday morning as some of the CS contingent were changing planes in O’Hare that it is true that the playoffs do run through Chicago! ;-)

  7. blingboy says:

    The suite is because the Brewers’ wives would melt if they got rained on.

  8. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    I could make a list………………..about what information you don’t seem to have here. Seems like the Brewers lighting a wagon of fire ………….. as they attempt to circle them………….is working……

    • blingboy says:

      Westy, I picture the scene from blazing saddles with one wagon circling.

      • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

        and Nyger is driving it……………… Lets see……… 20 rows behind the Dugout…… 60% chance of a rain out………. It may take us all night (Tony)……….. or …….Party suite…….. Even Jumbo could make 10 grand brokering that swap…………

  9. blingboy says:

    Heard Jeff Suppan is throwing out first pitch. Brewers should like that.

    Does Tony play games with the starter if rain looms? Again.

  10. JumboShrimp says:

    Mo and I have respect the fickleness of fans. They hate you one minute, love you the next, until the next time they hate you again.

    Back in 2006, we led most of the season. We slumped late and only made it into the playoffs on the final day when Houston lost, since we were busy losing a must win game.
    A lot of fans were outraged, but then we won the WS, despite Detroit being prohibitive favorites and despite our having one of the worst regular season records of a WS winner. Go figure.

    This year, quite a few fans got fed up and died away during August, disheartened by the Brewers and by the venerable age of Arthur Rhodes and Octavio Dotel. I knew the odds were actually not as long as some claimed, because TLR had a plan. And this year, we make it into the playoffs again on the last day, this time by doing a lot of late season winning, rather than losing.

    Was it better in 06, when we held on, by the narrowest of margins, or better in 11 when we eked our way in?
    Does it feel better to be in first place for more days during the season or better to be there on just the last day, the one when it matters?

    • STLfan51 says:

      The end of this season has been unlike any other I have seen. I have been a Cards fan since I can remember, my dad took me to my first game, it was when Brummer stole home. My 2nd game was Game 2 in 1982. Losing the 3-1 lead in 96 was crushing. The NLCS losses in early 2000s were frustrating. 04 was ok because they finally made it back and ran into a buzzsaw. Now to your question, 2006 was the ultimate. Winning the World Series as an adult was great because as a coach of 15-16 year olds in my town, I appreciate the strategy and skill much more now. It also was very frustrating down the stretch watching losing baseball. Luckily they squeaked in and won it all. This year? I look at it like this, we have been treated to 6 weeks of “must win” games. 8.5 back….7.5….6.5, “if we could sweep ATL here”….and so on. Seriously, what a display of entertaining, no quit, drama for 6 weeks. So much so that if it all ended in Sept, vs. the Phillies, this series, or next, would we really be able to complain? If we go on to win the World Series it would be better than 06. If it ended now or next week I’d give the nod to 06 because they won it all. But this year they made losing a moot point due to their will, desire, and never say die attitude. I can’t thank them enough win or lose.

  11. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Brewers are in a pitching crisis……………….. Cardinals?????????? who knows.

    Huge game on the line………… Roieike against LaRussa…………… both threatening to do a Queens exchange??………….. with there aces…………… who has the best position???????? if they do……… will one or the other sacrifice something else……………..???? Will you see Narveson against Lynn? for at least a few innings???? is it best to burn the ace……both aces? for St Louis??…… Lohse has been endlessly bumped……..why not just throw him to game 7…………….and let the rotation slide down as it seems to warrant….that way we may not even have to use the bum….he could do the BP…….he can start the series…………..

  12. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    …………..

    http://www.vegasinsider.com/mlb/scoreboard/previews/brewers-@-cardinals.cfm/date/10-12-11

    No comments by Nyger…………….. Roenicke is struggling to keep control……… he knows better than us what to fear…………..

  13. Bw52 says:

    If i remember correctly i give the nod to 1964.Checking the paper each afternoon when my brother and i could not pick up KMOX for whatever reason and just cringing when the damn Mets fought the Cards the last 3 games until Cards finally won.That was the first year the Cards made the Series (1964) in my life and when Barney Schultlz gave up the monster HR to Mantle my brother and i thought momentum might go to the Yankees.But Boyer,Brock and Mr Gibson made sure that the Title was the Cards.
    1967 was great beating Yaz aand the Sox
    1968 still ticks me off because Donut man Lolich shut the Cards down and Cards blew it.
    1982 Cards punch and judy bunch beat Harvey`s wallbangers.Nice.That bunch of Brewers had several Cards and the Brewers looked like a bunch of guys playing in a softball league…….i didn`t dislike that Brewers team .
    1985……no explanation needed…………have a rotten day Denkinger.
    1987….Cards banjo bats couldn`t overcome Twinkies pitching.Cards really missed Jack Clark a bunch.
    2004……….screw the BoSox
    2006..Great.so much for the talking heads and their predictions.

  14. crdswmn says:

    Brewers travel secretary says Ticketgate overblown. The players have no problems with the seating.

    http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/brewers.html

  15. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Molina is incredible…………………………no outs and he says …I’ll take my chances……….idiot……that could have given carp the 5 inning win……..and rest…………

  16. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    We are going to lose this game………………. and its all about Tony and his permissions………They try to hand us the game……and we don’t want it……….. and then instead of Holiday for the money……..its the embarrassing walk of a guy ahead of you for no reason……..so they can pitch to you…humiliation.

  17. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Holiday eats it again………………..and he will bat 4th tomorrow…………….. as Molina will bat 6th……..its like a nightmare………….every bit of it concerns Tony presenting Albert as the guy worth more than the 120 million dollar player,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, he’s making his point……at the same time he knows the flack is coming………………Molina AB was a travesty………not bunting Jay ………. priceless……….. and by the way………..Holiday is a puss………. not a pitch in the strike zone………..unless that last challenge caught it……

    • blingboy says:

      Westy, you have mentioned before that when Albert is feeding Matt is hiding under the sofa, or something to that effect.

    • blingboy says:

      Freese seems willing to risk getting nipped.

      • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

        The guy throws a cutter behind berkman…………………hit him in the butt………payback…..way over confident by Brewers………..unless you calculate the Molina factor………….then hell why not do it here

        • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

          Huge game……..and Tony is playing match up………..so he can do it again tomorrow too…………..

          I have a bad feeling about this match up …………… Lynn could have finished that inning………huge game

  18. blingboy says:

    Chris having 2 out of 3 poor post season starts is disturbing. You have to be able to count on your ace. IIRC, he wasn’t so great in 09 either.

    I’m not taking anything away from his clutch masterpiece in game 5, just saying we don’t know what we’ll get when Tony rolls him out. That’s not good when he’s your ace.

    • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

      He’s human BB………Tony, by showcasing him is adding more pressure maybe than he can handle…
      I though Galardo was going to pass out in the 1st…………….. there can be no excuse for hitting Molina 6th again……………..why don’t you parade his numbers Brian……..he stunk tonight. Holiday may be hurting…………….why not make it an issue………We could get to series…….if Tony starts managing…………I predicting Craig playing center and hitting 2nd………that gives Tony the excuse to do nothing behind him……..Theriot will start…….why not hit him second………..give me Laird behind the plate………..

      • blingboy says:

        It may be that, so long as we win, Tony figures showing off Matt’s limitations is not a bad thing.

        Tony doesn’t have any choice but to showcase Carp. Don’t tell me our ace can’t handle post-season pressure. E-gad.

        It seems like Yadi and Lance both have been very hot or cold. Speaking of Lance, letting a guy take second on a fly out, surprised it hasn’t happened more, but that can’t happen.

  19. Nutlaw says:

    Motte continues to impress! I’m feeling hopeful about this series.

    • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

      He sure is making them look bad isn’t he Nut………..he is winning his game………..even if he gets tagged……I hope he sticks with his guns…………

    • blingboy says:

      I wonder what happened to the secondary pitch stuff from earlier. He’s back to how he was when he first broke in, heaters, except better control.

      • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

        He has that little cutter that breaks about a foot BB………and he is using it………its the key to his success……….. everyone wants to sit on one pitch………they are trying to read him………the cutter is 90…………..no time to read anything………… I though scrabble was a cool customer tonight to…..slider was sliding……he got that pitch on his hands by too…………

        The Nyjer control game has backfired on them………. if we shut him down tomorrow……he won’t play against Garcia…………season over…………..

  20. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Tony got some serious backing right there and he knows it………………… Craig will start tomorrow…………….. if Tony leaves Holiday in……..Craig will hit 2nd and play center field……….If Molina hits 6th ………..I will puke…………….

    • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

      http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/cardinal-beat/article_3d61b392-f55c-11e0-b221-0019bb30f31a.html

      here it is………………………as expected…..not where I expected……..that allows him to leaves Holiday at 4th………. how will he find a way to leave Molina at 6th?????????????? watch him…………

      • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

        Clearly Holiday can’t hit behind Pujols right now. The solution. Move Pujols to 4th, put Holiday 3rd, put Freese 5th, and get Molina out of the 6th slot by putting Craig there. The only way that Tony can leave Molina 6th is by hitting Craig second. That has already been proven to be a losing move. Watch Tony make it.

        If he does…………I will then predict that Tony is retiring. He knows AP wants to stay here and play with his buddy Yadi. And he is willing to lose games trying to make a point of AP’s superiority over his teammates…………………..every walk that Pujols takes now, exposing the 120 million Holiday contract, Tony seems to thing enhances Albert’s status……………………….. I don’t think he gets it……….the not so subtle point he is making will cost him his job……….so obviously, he doesn’t care………….thanks for putting up the Yadi numbers in the 6 hole Brian…………

        • blingboy says:

          During the regular season Yadi hit .316 in the six spot. Hit into 10 DPs.

          • Brian Walton says:

            Thanks for the assist, bb. I am a bit busy working to stop and do research on demand. WC, I recommend checking out baseball-reference.com. You can easily answer that kind of question yourself. Less dots and more data can be a good thing. ;-)

            • STLfan51 says:

              “willing to lose”????!!!! Are you kidding me? Westy, I enjoy your take on things and your insights from a different angle. I like when you say, “they are going to lose this game” and they don’t. But seriously of all people Tony is not “willing to lose” $%#^. If anything his overwhelming WILL TO WIN has turned him into an outcast in baseball, aside from his players and fans.

              Be pessimistic and brooding, please don’t be disrespectful. Nobody on this team is willing to lose, so stop it.

              • STLfan51 says:

                Sorry I’m not done yet. Keeping the batting order intact 3-4-5 has been a constant all year, save injury. Yadi hitting 6th has also been fairly constant. This team got hot and is in postseason, continuing their hot play. Is a shake up in order to penalize MIL for walking AP? Probably. Last night was the first game in which MIL blatantly said, “Make Holliday beat us” and he didn’t come through. Plain and simple. If Holliday rakes last night or Molina hits a gapper in the first, is Tony “willing to lose” still? Hell no! My opinion is that you stay the course.

                Is Roenicke putting Kotsay in CF (for the 10th time all year), on the road, in game 3 of the NLCS a sign that he’s willing to win more than Tony? NO!!! It means he is grasping at straws in Game 3 (A great sign for STL), while our guy is calm, cool, and collected.

                Staying the course is far from “willing to lose”. …Unreal…

                • Brian Walton says:

                  Not arguing with your general theme, but did you know that Freese had exactly zero starts this regular season batting seventh?

                  In an oddity, Molina had the most starts on the team both batting sixth and seventh, though Freese was only five games behind him in the #6 spot and I think would have been the team leader there had he been healthy longer.

                  FWIW, I join those who would rather see Freese 6th ahead of Molina. IMO, Freese is too valuable as a consistent run producer to be hitting that low.

                  If Berkman is unable to go tonight, they both could move up.

                  • STLfan51 says:

                    I agree with Freese moving up as well. My point was more about “willing to lose”. The lineup has been pretty much the same for 3-4-5 hitters. For the first time this postseason a team said “no more” to Albert. The guys behind him didn’t get it done. And it’s Tony’s willing to lose now? In the NLCS? Keeping 3-4-5 intact and Molina 6th for this team that is raking is not “willing to lose”. Five straight games scoring in the first inning…..Holliday hitting .300+ in postseason….WINNING GAMES…..

                    Moving Molina and Freese around may make STL an even better lineup. But last night was the first time MIL finally said “Uncle” to Albert. Now Tony can react accordingly. Holliday’s K’s and Molina’s DP weren’t because Tony is making a point…..A POINT WE ALREADY KNOW…..WE DON”T NEED TONY LOSING GAMES TO PROVE ALBERT IS THE BEST PLAYER OUT THERE…….

                    • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

                      Get…IT…done??????? Do you see what the “it” is?????????? Losing is the result of inferior performance and or tactics………….. if Tony’s major focus is to prove AP is better or more valuable than everyone else….and he has been for 2 games………….. He becomes vulnerable to someone trying to prove that they have a superior team……………. what happens in todays game when they walk AP two or three time and Holiday chokes again?………….or Berkman sees no pitches because they like the Molina match up……….???? You were going to see Craig today one way or another………the Berkman announcement early on was to pad his ego, and receive his consent……..lets see Tony’s order….Molina is not only under producing……..he has become a tactical liability…….except in the management of the AP illusion…………..that sucks……..the larger war is the year long conflict…not playoff success……….thats why Tony is sweating his moves so much……..he hopes they work in both worlds………people are noticing the oddity’s…………

                      Tony’s BP logic is about????????? I know what its about……….. he is trying to create a unit….where no one is surprised by their usage or functions………… its a good tactic……….I respect that. I the end, is it about baseball………..or his legacy…….I don’t know the answer to that one, so I’m just spectating…..I hope it works for us ……and him………

                      We scored 4 in the first……..could have been much more……… and we didn’t score afterwards because of their tactics……….pitching really wasn’t any better………. so how about today??????
                      We know they will be pressuring Holiday…………….. here is another prediction………if Holiday hits…Pujols will start chasing again…………because he is playing a different game than his teammates…… its nice when they coincide……….

          • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

            regular season????…………… how about since he moved back there in the last 2 or three weeks???

            • STLfan51 says:

              Is it your opinion that Tony is willing to lose games in the NLCS to make a point that Albert is the best player on the team? Yes or no?

              My opinion is he is not.

              • STLfan51 says:

                “Tony is willing to lose games to make a point of AP’s superiority over his teammates.”

                Who thinks he isn’t superior already? Wouldn’t winning prove that much easier? If Holliday hits last night, by your theory, then Holliday would be moved out of the 4 hole (he’s ruining Albert’s standing by performing), every time he has a good game. Right? If it’s Tony willing to lose then the worst hitters should surround AP. I agree it’s time to raise Freese and drop Yadi. If he does fine, if he doesn’t its not because Tony is willing to lose.

                Your theory is he’s willing to lose to prove what we already know, Albert is superior. That’s insane. What got me riled up is that Tony is willing to lose. In the NLCS. Show the man some respect. Make your “sky is falling” argument using some other argument.

                • crdswmn says:

                  I agree that TLR is NOT willing to lose in the playoffs. You can tell by his demeanor in the dugout, that he wants to win in the worst way. He appears to have lightened up considerably in the last month or so.

                  I will say that during the regular season there are times when I think TLR puts his ego ahead of winning. It’s not that he wants to lose, I don’t think he ever WANTS to lose, I just think he is more willing to risk losing if it means he can win his way, rather than the easy way.

                  • STLfan51 says:

                    Well said. Over the course of 162 games, to win “my way, if we lose so be it”, for any agenda is human nature. I do not disagree. Willing to lose in the NLCS to prove any point, especially a point we already know, is insane.

                    Side note: Happy Birthday, enjoy the game, I will be there too!!

                    • STLfan51 says:

                      Side note #2: Tony winning “his way” has proven to be pretty damn successful.

                    • crdswmn says:

                      But maybe he would have gotten those second place win numbers a lot sooner if his ego didn’t get in the way. Not to mention all of the drama and dissension could have been avoided.

              • WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

                As this is a “practiced” dialog 51………I’m surprised at your need to ask such a demeaning question……. I’m sure every player in a war hopes to win………. its really about the “cost” of winning…….. at some point Tony will mutter……..well David was hitting so well at the unpressed 7th spot, I didn’t want to change anything………………… and what? Holidays hand is better? Berkman got hit on the leg…..”say lance, do you mind sitting out tomorrow”? Tony is seeking a conditional victory………….I don’t know of Milwaukee is going to agree………….

                • STLfan51 says:

                  I’m not asking any demanding questions! Those are your words. I’m asking if you really believe what you said, that the manager of STL is willing to lose to prove Albert is the best player on the team. That’s all…

                  • STLfan51 says:

                    Crd – Does he get this far as a manager if his ego doesn’t get in the way? Very good debate for another day. I could do without most of his antics as well, but that’s who he his. Are we here without him? No.

                    That said I explain Tony like this, if you watch him day to day he is maddening. If you watch only game 1 and only game 162, 9 years out of 17 years he’s pretty damn good for STL. He just flat gets it done.

  21. blingboy says:

    Check out the first sentence

    “Theo Nathan Epstein (born December 29, 1973) is the former General Manager of the Boston Red Sox, and in 2011 moved to the Chicago Cubs. ”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Epstein

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