It is common across sports and society in general to play the blame game.
As St. Louis Cardinals fans know, just last week manager Tony La Russa tried to play off the Albert Pujols contract stalemate on pressure from the Players Union being applied to Pujols to seek top dollar on the open market. Considerable debate ensued as to whether the accusations were real or imagined.
Not only do officials do it, fans join in, too.
Wednesday was an especially bad day for members across the Cardinal Nation as the serious injury to Cardinals pitcher Adam Wainwright was announced. Thursday’s news confirmed the need for season-ending Tommy John surgery.
Some pointed an accusatory finger at the club’s oft-maligned medical staff for not addressing the problem earlier while others turned their anger on the opponent – specifically, the Cincinnati Reds’ Jonny Gomes.
A report from Hal McCoy of the Dayton Daily News had the veteran Cincy outfielder singing in the Reds clubhouse on Wednesday in apparent delight over Wainwright’s misfortune.
Another writer, MLB.com’s Mark Sheldon, witnessed the same event, but offered a different perspective. Later Sheldon contacted Gomes by phone. The player said all the right things, including a denial of any malicious intent, but many suspicious Cardinals fans wrote it off as damage control, backtracking, spin to cut the heat.
This morning, McCoy was the one to backtrack. He said his “70-year-old ears” may have been “hearing things.” McCoy subsequently removed the offending passage from his original Wednesday post and offered his regrets for having written about it.
On Thursday, Gomes told ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick that he has “reached out” to the Cardinals to squash any potential bad feelings from the episode. Update: Gomes has also gone on local radio in St. Louis to explain.
Both managers earlier made politically-correct comments intended to diffuse the situation.
I can understand why Cardinals backers are unhappy about the Reds, stemming from last season’s comments from Brandon Phillips and especially the career-ending injury that Jason LaRue suffered at the cleats of Cincinnati pitcher Johnny Cueto.
On the other hand, Cardinals fans have a well-deserved reputation for being knowledgeable and classy, showing respect for opponents. Overreaction to one writer’s disputed report would seem to go against that grain.
It is completely understandable to be upset over the Wainwright news, but it should probably be left at that.
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Arm injuries happen. Any knowledgable person understands that as being as big a part of the game as the ball and the strike. No way Adam gets surgery this past October/November as he had too much riding on this season…….being on the active roster at seasons end. I’m sure the elbow was injured some at the end of the season but this was the way it had to play out. Adam had to come to spring training and give it a whirl and see what happened. He did…the elbow quit on him….and now we have surgery. Just part of the game…..albeit a hard part if you are a Cardinals fan.
October/November as he had too much riding on this season?????????………. are you reading the thread RC?
Just stating the fact that if adam is not on the disabled list at the end of the 2011 season the options would be picked up automatically.
So last year the elbow was probably injured but Adam chose to try to rehab it and subsequently alter his offseason preparation in order to try to make it through this year for monetary reasons. Regardless if he had ucl surgery in November or now its not that big of a difference. Basically 2 years will be lost of a full speed Adam W.
And WC, my post was the first in this thread.
Arguable………with all the new Techniques……..he pitches by May 2012 if he goes for November surgery……….. the point is………..they must pick up his option for both years…at that price, or he is signing with the Yankee’s for serious money for the 2012 season…………
“preparation in order to try to make it through this year for monetary reasons.”
Not sure if I made that clear……….this is a false statement……….
A clarification for some……….
The 9 / 13 million dollar options were designed as a market projection/temptation… to avoid negotiations in Waino’s arbitration years………they stand as a very good value move by BD……… the stipulation that both must be activated in 2012 is a move by Wainwrights agent……….prophetic it would seem……… Wain was/is a lock to have those options used….short of a career ending injury…………… his desire of needing to activate them is/was silly……
If not he is a FA in 2012……….. a good business to be in for a 20 game winner…………..
But would you not agree that by waiting until today to have surgery he basically has the Cardinals quite possibly being in a position to decline the options whereas if Adam has the surgery in November they most assuradly would have picked both up. Surgery in November Adam is ready for the start of 2012. Now he will basically be lost for most of 2012 so the cardinals will be paying 21 million for one year of Adam, which will be the 2013 year.
RC said:
Says who?
Just a guess but I don’t see Adam throwing 200 innings in 2012. Does he become a reliever for 2012? Do you push him as a starter in 2012? What are the innings limitations for 2012? It just seems that you would have to be careful with him in 2012.
You are all over the map, RC. Your second post is far more realistic than the first.
Yea I know. I’ve had one of the worst days of my life and unfortunately its thrown me all over the place.
Understood. Hoping the problems get righted soon.
You are still missing the point RC………. if they decline the options he is in effect a FA….. the Yankees sign him in an instant for half of 2012 at 12 million, and 4 more at 20 plus…..no question…….. Since the Cardinals waited……they look strong this January and weak next January, surely you see the purpose of that?………………
This pouting about the Bad news from Yokum………who do you think paid the 1200$ for that 20 minute consultation?
How come no takers on this question?
You’re right to avoid the obvious……. the insurance carriers use Yokum on the west coast….Andrews on the east coast……this “second opinion” was for the insurance claim that will be made………. I would still use an independent knife just to be sure about my future dealings with the club………..when the cut Liriano open, they said the cat wouldn’t touch it. It looked that bad…………. they are railroading Wainwright here to avoid an independent from “possibly saying”…”what the hell was he thinking when he examined you this winter”………..betcha
How much do you think the Cards pay to insure all these players every year? (assuming they do)
Since this isn’t going any where……. a question for the group……
If the Cardinals have to go into arbitration with Adam Wainwright, a 20 game winner, before the 2011 season…………….. do they go for the knife in Nov……or Feb……….. to suspect that AW/Agent have no idea of their contract status is silly………to suggest that BD doesn’t consider every variable, is equally as foolish……..my finale word………..
club must exercise 2012 and 2013 options at same time
Is that a promise
I’m not usre what I’d do with Wainwright. HE may be back in mid-2012 but will he be the Adma Wainwright we know and love by then. Will he just be an average pitcher in 2012 and back close to normal in 2013. If that is scenario – do you pay $21 million for one normal season? Will he fully recover? My unscientific estimate is that 15–20% come back significantly worse than they were while another 15-20% actually come back stronger (usually via improved velocity).
The idea of the Cards reworking his deal in a manner that would include an extension is interesting but do you extend a guy with an up to 20% chance he might not actually come back the same? You can be creative and require minimum innings pitched for the extension to kick in but sometimes a guy is healthy but just not the same.
Maybe since some analysts think teams would be lining up to give Wainwright a multi-year deal if he were a FA we should consider trading him to one of those teams, sounds like maybe we could get a biddng war going.
Just some thoughts.
If you “thought” that you weren’t going to be able to sign him in 2014, that might make sense.
If you offer Wainwright a new contract, excluding the options, he might take 6 million for 2012, for team competitive purposes, followed by 16/18/ 19 /21………….. anything less would be crazy. And pointless………… NY gives him 120 million dollar deal with 12 million for 2012…….
he is still in the catbird seat………… 21 for two years is the cheap way out.
Given our recent success one has to wonder whether they can re-sign him in 2014.
Do you commit $58 million more to a guy getting ready to have/coming off of major arm surgery? To save ~ $10 million over those 3 years?
Another way to look at this could be $21 million to Wainwright for 1 good yr and half a weak year or $15 million to Carpenter for 1 yr (and a year earlier? Probably go with Wainwright given chance to re-sign him or at least get draft picks if he leaves.
reasonable conjecture………….. your failing to estimate for the “:Pujols effect” though……. you think this is about baseball……… obviously………..
Maybe I just dont care if it is not.
Just a couple questions. Been reading a lot about the team and Pujols theories. But what if they both aren’t as adversarial as everyone seems to think? I mean, if you look at what both want, the team to sign Pujols to a reasonably priced contract (that won’t break the payroll and) that would enable him to end his career here, and Pujols wanting to be recognized as the best player in baseball by some record-breaking contract, couldn’t both objectives be reached by allowing Pujols to go to FA? Here’s how it works: the team allows him to go to FA so that he is -offered- the biggest contract in baseball (by some big market team) which will be leaked and cause a stir, then the Cards get to offer him something less that fits the budget (because they have been stating all along that they don’t have the payroll to offer him a record contract) and then he takes less and stays with the Cards and becomes the new Stan Musial and the anti Lebron and anti Arod. He becomes a new hero and everyone in the media starts talking about how great a guy he is along with how he is really worth the most. Anybody think there is some collusion possibly going on? This couldn’t happen unless he went to FA and the office by some reports really lowballed him. Another theory is the team managment hopes it plays out like this. I dunno I maybe a conspiracy theorist.
Welcome, Kansas. I don’t think your non-adversarial scenario is unreasonable at all. As they say, the devil is in the details, however. How big will that other bid be and how close do the Cards need to come to satisfy both Pujols and all the observers (MLB, media, union, etc)? If it gets to the end and the two sides are too far apart (however Pujols defines that), things probably won’t be friendly any longer.
You all are definitely more knowledgeable about this stuff than me, I’m just a fan. I guess I didn’t consider the outside influences. The F.O. would have really had to do their homework to make that ploy work. I guess what really matters is what Pujols wants. If he wants the actual money and to play for a wining team he asks himself if the Cards can do both. If no then he really can’t stay. If he just wants to be recognized as the best then my above scenario is one possible solution. He’d be thought of as the best, and stay a Cardinal while (maybe) one upping Musial who famously returned part of his salary.
Having come to gripps with the Wainy news, I’m turning to the interest and intrigue that will surround the competition for the rotation slot. Less of a downer that way.
There are several catagories of choices:
The creaking relic, Batista, Valdes, Calero, etc.
The minor league starter: Otto, Lynn, PJ, etc.
The suspect back of rotation guy who can be had cheap: Milwood, etc
The pen guy: McClellan, or ?
Anyone care to expand on that feel free.
Sorry to hear RC had a bad day. Best wishes.
I don’t know if 33 is a creaking relic (Valdez)
Calero isn’t competing to be a starter. I’m not sure he can relieve without his arm falling off.
Right, I guess Raul would have brought his birth certificate with him.
If you watch the ‘brawl’ video over at Viva El Birdos, you’ll see Gomes got a few licks in while Carp was pinned at the net. He was Cueto’s Tonto that day. That is what’s fueling some of the Gomer antipathy from StL fans.
Sounds like a lot of CYA going on in Cincinnasti. But they’re pretty much hopeless from a class perspective as long as Dusty Baker remains at the helm…
If the Redlegs had their choice about our hurlers to get injured, they’d have picked Carp or Jaime, both of whom wore them out last year. I think (from memory) Waino was just 2-2 or so against them last year.
Gomes has taken the time to go on a number of radio stations in St. Louis today/tonight to explain and try to calm emotions. Instead of getting a nod for being proactive and positive, he is attacked by some for apologizing about something he supposedly didn’t do. Damned either way by those always looking for something.
CYA… and I’d call it REACTIVE and positive. Tip of the cap for at least trying. Should have kept his yap shut to begin with.
I haven’t followed the Cincy side of the story today. Has anyone affirmed McCoy’s initial version? Perhaps you checked the links above and noted the only other writer I’ve seen mention it who was actually there at the time had a different view of what happened from the very start.
When people are already looking to pick a fight, it doesn’t take much.
Didn’t McCoy break the Brandon Phillips comment story last year?
Yes, McCoy did. A huge difference is that Phillips did not deny he said it. In fact, I am pretty sure he stood behind it.
Speaking of Phillips, I noticed this in Hummel’s article today:
Brandon Phillips, Reds: “The thing is that the Cardinals have a lot of money and they could easily make a trade for somebody to replace him…..”
I didn’t know what to think about that on multiple levels and still don’t.
On Waino’s options… it’s a no-brainer. You pick them up. He’s one of the elite pitchers in the bigs, going into an operation with a high success rate. If it was a shoulder, ala Mulder, then it’s a different situation.
Carp’s getting long in the tooth and Adam looks to become the heart & soul of the staff into the near future. Sign him up!
If the team didn’t pick up Waino’s options, they’d be in the condition of going from being a team with co-aces to a team with no-aces.
Trade the bum as soon as you can. You’ll never be able to sign him anyway…
Just covering all the contingencies so I can come back in two years and second-guess ownership for not playing hardball.
I though I read above where that ground had been covered already.
Where is crdswmn? Does anyone know if she is on Waino sucide watch? She sounded pretty bummed yesterday. Come back, crdswmn, come back… (Shades of Shane!)
Maybe wherever she is, she’ll find Jumbo, too. Even he would have a hard time feeling good about what has happened this week.
Pitching injuries are just part of the game.
When Herkie was a lad, he recalls a season when some forgotten lowly batter had the temerity to hit a pitch from Gibby back at him, breaking a bone. Gibson was revealed to be a mere mortal. The cheekiness of some batters!
Pitching is a dangerous job and injuries occur.
Let us look forward to competing in 2011. Baseball is an endless journey.
Word HerkO………………
Is this finally the post to which we can all agree?
Brian, you Cardinal fans love to have those pitchers do all the work. Its time to take the hammer and use the damn thing. We will give up a few more runs………lets score a bunch………
I can live with 8-6 wins just as well as 4-2. But we should keep in mind that our offense relies on Berkman and Freese and is even more lacking in depth than our rotation. But this bunch will have heart, and staying power, if I understand correctly.
bb: two words, Allen Craig.
Maybe Allen has learned that if you’re a new kid on a La Russa team you have to start out hot and stay hot for a good streatch. A guy only gets so many chances.
TLR has learned to shift Craig back to 3B. Since Freese’s health is iffy, Craig could wind up with a bunch of at bats in 2011. If Craig can get steady at bats, he will hit enough. (The fielding will not be pretty, but it is what it is.)
I have to disagree Oinkster. I think Tony saw all he ever wants to see of Craig at 3B during that one game try out where he flubbed the grounder. Craig could have been out there instead of Feliz and wasn’t. It’s somebody else’s idea to work him there this spring. (Westy thinks its a ploy to justify not spending any money on a legit backup for Freese) But i’ll admit, if he looks like Brooks Robinson out there, he’ll get some reps. Not holding my breath.
Not meaning to stir things up, but Luhnow and Co. seemed to think he was less of a 3baseman than Wallace, as they moved him off the position. And the entire rest of the baseball world (except for one journalist, albeit a fabulous one) agrees Wallace is not a 3 baseman.
It is possible Craig will drive TLR nuts at 3B, this possibility cannot be ruled out.
Tony seems to have two moods. There is spring training, during which many things can be tried. His mind seems more open, because he can slot guys into special TLR training that he thinks empowers them to be better. Case in point: Anderson is now in the coveted 3rd catcher role, unlike last spring. It could be bull or it could be TLR, sometime its hard to know for sure.
My guess is TLR wants to gat at bats for Craig. He can replace Berkman against lefties. And since Freese cannot play a third of the time, at best, Craig could collect at bats at 3B, and get replaced around the 7th inning by Punto or Greene.
TLR likes to think about players who can play multiple positions. He has a pretty good collection this spring: Punto (3); Greene (6); Craig (3); Jay (3); Skip (4); Descalso (2).
I agree he will get plenty of at bats this spring, and if he hits they’ll find a place for him, or trade him for something else. We’ll see how Berkman looks later on this spring. If Craig hits and can spell both Freese and Lance, that would be ideal.
The boot lickers love to quote the local scribes when it suits there agenda but when it doesn’t……
“Though he was viewed as better at third than Wallace…”
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_9924f742-2905-5746-8c88-7cebcd74b6de.html
I got a chuckle out of that quote, as I’m sure no one in the organization ever said it before now. But spin knows no bounds. You left off the truly remarkable part:
“Though he was viewed as better at third than Wallace, his arm mechanics and strength weren’t consistent enough for the position, coaches said.”
What?? If Craig’s arm mechanics and strength weren’t consistent enough for the position and he was viewed as better than Wallace??? You see the point, of course. What the hell did they draft Wallace first for then? And keep him at third all that time.
The fact is there is no competent 3B backup at AAA, they don’t want to spend any money, and so they are trying to foist a rejected 3B prospect as a legit option. Ordinary Joe six-pack fans like me will not question it if they spin it right. Gould is good.
Looking back to when the Cards were scrambling to find a guy to play behind gimpy Glaus, The order of precedence was Freese (was unavailable due to injury), Wallace (was deemed not ready), Mather (outfielder unavaiable due to injury). As to Craig. In the words of Brian “…Craig isn’t viewed as a major league third baseman …”.
http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/27/wallace-and-the-hot-seat/
Brian’s opinions may be disputed, but I challenge anyone to dispute the accuracy of his reporting.
So, indisputably, the Cards org thought Craig was not a major league third baseman, even in a time of rather desperate need. That was May 2009. He hasn’t played the position much or at all in two years, and now he’s an option. He was batter than Wallace!!! kkkkkkkkkkkk oh kkkkkk.
For the 2008 playoff, TLR preferred washed up Glaus at 3B and the injured DeRosa versus Freese. Come spring training, however, the Cards were keen to hand the position to Freese (who then got hurt in a car accident). The point: there can be curious changes about who gets priority to play 3B. TLR gives priority to the vets, until they leave. Then Freese got priority because he was the best combination of offense/defense.
In spring training 2009, TLR wanted to get Joe Mather involved at 3B, because he was high on Mather as a hitter/ This was similar to how we moved Mike Shannon from RF to 3B at the ML level, during the late 1960s. Mather dropped out because a wrist injury stole his power. Wallace was too new to pro ball (he had only played in the Midwest League). Whether Wallace was a 3Bman or not, long-term, was irrelevant to Tony.
In spring 09, TLR and Jose Oquendo must not have liked Craig’s throwing motion. In 2007/2008, the Cards had Craig on an arm strengthening program, aiming to make him a better 3Bman. So the Cards knew about the problem and were working to overcome it. TLR must have said, give up, move Craig to corner OF.
Now we are in spring 2011. The situation is changed. Freese has been vulnerable on health, but Craig has stayed healthy. Craig has now had a couple of seasons of AAA hitting experience and we can use his bat. Craig is not nifty at corner OF either. So it makes sense to shift Craig back to where the need is greatest, 3B. He can be a stopgap fill-in, until we find a longer term solution. It is what it is.
The Cards have depth at 3B. This is good, in case Freese reinjures his foot.
A stopgap alternative is Descalso. He does not slug or have the arm strength to be a longterm fit, but Descalso could fill-in.
Craig can fill-in for a year. He has the bat, even if the arm is a little short.
Matt Carpenter needs to gain experience at Memphis. He could be ready for the majors by August.
Zach Cox will need a year or two of minor league ball. He should be ready to take over by 2013.
Freese and the Cards have had bad luck during 2009 and 2010, with onjuries. If Freese is able to bounce back physically, he will be useful.
Depth in terms of bodies but not in terms of experience. Craig has 10 innings at 3B in MLB, Descalso 73, Cox and Carpenter zero. In fact, Cox and Carpenter have zero experience at 3B even at the 3A level and Descalso is primarily a second baseman.
Freese himself has only 598.1 innings at 3B in MLB. Together… Freese, Craig, Descalso, Cox and Carpenter have 681.1 innings at the position in the bigs. Compare that to Punto, who has 2133 innings, more than three times as many as all the others combined. That’s why, given Freese’s fragility, the loss of Punto was a serious blow to the team.
“The loss of Nick Punto was a serious blow….”
Lets laminate these words and present them to his parents.
The Oinkster has gone where no one has gone before.
Or has he. .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .we haven’t heard from Jumbo yet. . . . . . . . . . .
Jumbo is with us some how BB……… If Herko is Jumbo in disguise, he must be ready to explode from holding back the platitudes…………
WC, beware of flying particles…
Correction: Gibson’s leg was broken in 1967 by a liner off the bat of Roberto Clemente. Nellie Briles stepped into the rotation and won 9 straight. But Gibson returned in September and we beat the Red Sox in the Series. My first recollection was not entirely relevant, because Wainwright is not going to be returning by September 2011.
Now that’s a forgotten lowly batter we could use.
About the Reds BS……….its intended to sell tickets…….let it go. If Zambrano broke down……..I might skip a few steps myself…………..
All this talk of who is going to fill in the rotation and whether Wainwright can be signed when he will be due big bucks brings up the question of how the farm system is going to sustain the team through this decade, esp if Pujols is going to drain a chunk of the payroll. Rosenthal’s article quoted a ranking that put the Card’s farm system at 24th
We kinda got a preview when Freese went down. The farm couldn’t supply a serviceable replacement. Dry as a bone.
Finally, when it came down to the chase for the Division, Feliz was better than anything else we had, and he stunk. Looking at it another way, light hitting middle infieder Descalso was deemed a better 3B option than the 3B options. I’m still disgusted by the whole thing, and no one will ever convince me it didn’t play a part in JL getting downsized.
Dang, bb. Where were you when I was having it out with CC on this very point?
I was lurking HB. I already got poo-pood by the heavyweights over the Freese thing last year.
good to know for future reference how closed minded you can be.
Luhnow boot-licker!
[I wonder if I spelled 'boot' correctly?]
Reminds me of that Joe Strauss chat, where he said, “Nobody, and I mean nobody, takes being challenged harder than a member of the Sabe religion…” Old Joe hits the nail on the head every now and then…
Typical Tex, post something that is totally irrelevant to the real issue being discussed.
KBM, I am glad you are asking questions here. Rosenthal is cherry picking stats to support his theme that the world is about to end. ESPN ranks the Cardinals system 14th, in the top half. Two other national rankings have them 17th and 19th with Baseball Prospectus still to report. One year ago, every single major prospect ranker had the Cardinals somewhere between #28 and dead last. Of course, he didn’t mention the improvement.
BB, you do know that the new farm director reports to Luhnow just as before, right? And that the top 3B prospect in the system was traded away for Holliday? I know for a fact that a change in responsibilities had been discussed for months prior to it being announced. As you say, your mind is made up already, but I talk with people in the system regularly and am quite confident that the 3B problems had nothing to do with it.
Brian — I have a quote from Mozeliak saying Vuch would have ‘autonomy’ as farm director, so it’s not so cut and dry that he reports to Luhnow ‘just as before’.
Baseball America’s most recent ranking of the Cards farm system was #24. Obviously, others have ranked it higher. Sort of like the various new defensive metrics… a menu to choose from until you find one that supports your position.
Not sure how fair or realistic it is to call Brett Wallace a third baseman, either.
You guys can believe what you want to believe, that the changes were revolutionary. All I do is cover this stuff for a living.
Since you want to base your decision on what you read, here is the quote from the release, where words used are very carefully chosen:
“John Vuch (pronounced vooch), a member of the Cardinals organization since the late 1970s, has been promoted to Farm Director and will oversee all aspects of the team’s player development under the direction of Luhnow…”
Regarding third base, you miss the point entirely. Brett Wallace probably would have been at least as good of an option defensively as the internal alternatives they had/have, which is Daniel Descalso and Allen Craig and is a better hitter than either.
I am not suggesting the Holliday trade should not have been made. I am pointing out the top third base prospect in the system had been traded 12 months before and the new heir apparent had just been drafted and obviously wasn’t yet ready. There was a gap in the prospect pipeline for that position that was created with their eyes wide open – a decision that the farm director was not responsible for.
I lost track of how many teams decided Wallace isn’t a third baseman. In Jeff-land he is though, I’ll give you that.
Wallace’s body type reminds me of a Weeble… bottom heavy… ‘weebles wobble but they don’t fall down’…
Vuch seems to do a good job. If there have been any differences of opinion between Luhnow and Vuch, the latter has been in the player development business for decades and probably has developed a realistic sense of when to give up on a prospect. (Of course, this is unproveable, as many expert opinions are.)
Brian — It’s true that the ‘reorganization’ of Luhnow’s empire was not called a demotion in the joint press release issued by Mozielak/Luhnow you quoted. However, as a veteran of the corporate world and many reorganizations, I can tell you demotions are often not presented as such for public consumption. This is done to assuage the feelings of the one losing power and responsibility. Sometimes, by self-deception the demotee even buys the spin, only later understanding the full dimension of what has happened. Managers do this when they’re happy with some aspects of a guy’s performance, but not others, want to fix a problem yet retain the employee and keep him motivated.
Here is what some other people who ‘cover this stuff for a living’ had to say on the matter…
‘…Jeff Luhnow takes the fall for the 2010 Cardinals implosion…’ — Tipsheet: Reggie Bush is a small piece of larger problem | JEFF GORDON | Posted: Friday, September 17, 2010 7:53 am
‘Before the moves, Luhnow had served as both the director of amateur scouting and… farm director… those roles will be split into two jobs, a more common arrangement… While the club was careful not to couch the moves as a demotion… the truth is that some of Luhnow’s influence over operations will be diminished… Vuch will have a more direct hand in how Minor League players are developed.’ — Cardinals promote Vuch to farm director | By Matthew Leach | 09/16/10 9:36 PM ET
‘… Some will undoubtedly view this as a loss of power for Luhnow, and that’s a reasonable view… I don’t care as much about the ego aspect… or keeping score on who has the most clout… what’s important [is] what’s best for the future of the Cardinals… — Bernie Bytes: Cardinals making changes | BY BERNIE MIKLASZ | Posted: Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:45 pm
‘…The… reorganization… is a subtle comment on the importance of and performance… [by] the minor-league system. — Cards reorganize farm system, scouting assignments | BY DERRICK GOOLD | Posted: Thursday, September 16, 2010 2:15 pm
‘… Luhnow technically retains a supervisory role over both departments… Mozeliak underscored that Vuch will enjoy full “autonomy” over day-to-day operations and personnel… concern had mounted over Luhnow’s ability to handle… both departments… field staff has also voiced concerns about the lack of help at… Memphis this season… Mozeliak conceded… support [has been] lacking with the exception of… Jon Jay… [the] announcement represents the first speed bump [in] Luhnow’s rapid ascent. — Luhnow relieved of some duties | BY JOE STRAUSS | Posted Friday, September 17, 2010 2:15 pm
‘… “It really frees Jeff up to do more on the scouting side… bear down on the amateur scouting,” Vuch said. “It allows me to take advantage of my connections with the Minor League staff… it will increase communication… One thing that I’ve always been a big believer in is the fundamentals, stressing playing the game the right way and doing the things that [George] Kissell and Ricketts and Hub Kittle and all those guys taught”…’ — Cardinals promote Vuch to farm director | By Matthew Leach | 09/16/10 9:36 PM ET
HB: You mention being a veteran of the corporate world. Well it seems as if you know little of the corporate life within the business of the Cards.
Bill DeWitt is the lead owner. Luhnow is Bill’s recruit. When DeWitt and Luhnow found GM Walt Jocketty insufficiently supportive of the firm’s business plan, Walt received a severance check. Vuch has been with the Cards a long time, under various leaders. He must have been a good team player and colleague for Luhnow. Vuch has lately been rewarded with a new title and bigger paycheck. One happy corporate family!
Oink — I’m fully aware of who is the principal owner of the Cards, who brought Luhnow into the organization, who is his champion, and the circumstances of Jocketty’s demise. It’s a bit presumptious of you to suggest otherwise based on my posts today.
I’ve got no problems with Vuch, but I don’t think it was a good idea to put Luhnow in charge of the entire pipeline for player development. After all, prior to 2003 his only experience in the sport was playing fantasy baseball. Seems DeWitt reached the same conclusion last year… that giving Luhnow the farm system was a bridge too far.
Vuch has autonomy… which means independence, freedom or self-government. If Vuch has autonomy, that means he makes decisions, not Luhnow. That is a de-facto loss of power, regardless of what the press release says. Luhnow retains titular control, a title on his office door and on his business card, but Vuch has the juice, the real power and authority over the farm system.
In the Baseball OPs department, Mo is Senior VP and Jeff is the only other VP. Vuch has worked for Jeff. He still reports to Jeff. The more things change, the more they remain the same.
Oinky — I’m sure ‘Jeff’ gets a little tingle every time he walks past his office door and sees the words VP on there. He likely gets the same tingle seeing all those boxes under his name on the org chart he keeps in his pocket.
Sometimes you have to read between the lines a little. Titles are different than real power. A man with ‘autonomy’ has real power. A man with a title has ink on a piece of paper (the org chart and his business card) and some words on the sign on his office door.
I do not know the present rapport among DeWitt, Mo, and Jeff. Not shy about admitting reality. Sadly I am also persuaded, despite paragraphs about special assistants, ducks and stuff, HBTexas has no insider insights either. Brian is going to need to help us out by hiding in Mo’s closet with a tape recorder and then reporting the inside scoop.
Sorry, Oink. I have moved on from this conversation. Minds were made up before it began so it is a waste of time to share what I pick up while in my job.
Only in Tex’s world (and dislike of Luhnow) would taking the V.P of Marketing and Logistics job and breaking out the logistics function in a seperate division (of the same department) that reports to the VP of Marketing and Logistics be considered a demotion. This would be seen universally as a promotion for the VP in the real world (not Tex’s fantasy) as the VP now has a another division reporting to him. In the Federal government the VP would be able to use having one more division director reporting to him as justification for his job being reclassified and most likely have his pay grade bumped up. But in Tex’s fantasy the analogous situation with the Cardinals is a demotion. I’m sure he is very comfortable in his fantasy world though.
CC — Apparently most of the writers at the P-D and MLB’s Cardinal beat reporter see it differently. Enjoy Luhnow Candyland…
In my fantasy world, the Birds were not all that great at drafting and developing since the 1970s. Whitey and later Walt made some good trades to help the team during up years. For the long run, DeWitt realized the team needed to do better at developing Latin and US amateur talent, and committed more money to it. The minor league system seems better, but there is room for more improvement. They need to give a little bit more value to physical upside over collegiate performance.
The team may be headed in this direction. Tuivailala seems like a good gamble with a 3rd round pick, like Joe Mather once was. Big kid with physical potential.
Yep, those Cardinal beat writers are experts in the workings of business organizations! They even love to go around repeating the speculations of others (and each others) some some bozo’s can say that by repeating the speculations of these writers that their speculations are informed.
Apparently ‘some some bozos’ have problems with the Queen’s English.
The bottom line here is that Luhnow lost power. Not only that, he lost power in an area that was central to his rise in the organization and to the ongoing organizational rift. This is significant.
Most teams keep the roles of farm director and scouting/draft director separated. That was the case in StL prior to late ‘06, when DeWitt gave Luhnow control of the farm, adding to the scouting/draft role he gained in ‘05.
In fact, those events precipitated the ongoing rift, and led to Jocketty’s firing. Walt strongly objected to giving Luhnow that power, replacing his own people. In that fight, Luhnow won, gained clout & deposed the head of the opposition. Any change to the order of things achieved in that important event in Luhnow’s rise would reasonably be seen by him as a threat to his organizational self-image.
In addition to naming Vuch farm director, the press release names two others to new roles, one for each piece of the divided Luhnow empire. Both are Special Assistants to Mozielak and will continue to report to him.
A ‘Special Assistant’ is a troubleshooter, one who takes on hot jobs at the direction of the boss. One, Gary LaRocque, will take on ‘a significant role in the minor league operation’. The other, Matt Slater, will assume unspecified ‘amateur and international scouting responsibilities’.
Why would Mozielak assign two troubleshooters, one to each part of Luhnow’s empire, if everything was going well? Answer, he wouldn’t. In my view, Mo put those guys in place to ‘ride herd’ & to ensure that his directions are followed. Imagine your boss putting one of his assistants in the department you supervise, keeping an eye on things you do and reporting back without first consulting you. Does that show confidence or something else?
Change itself signals a need to fix something that is not going well. It’s a sign of problems, and there are problems. We know about Marty Mason; we know Duncan said the farm’s pitching depth couldn’t support a championship-caliber team; we saw that the farm didn’t provide depth needed to support the team’s needs in 2010 or this off-season; we saw a farm unwilling/unable to use minor league pieces in trades for Oswalt or Westbrook; and we see players coming to MLB who aren’t well schooled in the fundamentals. But most of all, we see a system producing complimentary pieces in abundance but few everyday players or impact pitchers. Jaime and Colby are exceptions, not the rule, and there a questions about what’s behind them.
Success has many fathers… failure is an orphan. In mid-Sept., there was a blame game & finger-pointing contest going on within the organization that spilled into the press. TLR was blamed for not motivating the team; there were stories about late-season collapses; the Colby flap; the team underperforming; not being able to beat sub-.500 teams; and lots of speculation that TLR would retire. There was some pushback, far less publicly. TLR must have felt that the knives were out for him. And then, before the end of the season, DeWitt & Mo acted. I interpreted the change and timing as signals that TLR retained ownership’s support and wasn’t being blamed. Changes directly addressed field staff’s concerns, and Vuch’s first visit was with them. Luhnow’s control over the farm was curtailed and his empire, in practical terms, split and returned to pre-’06 form. TLR was invited back, but in a sop to the Luhnowites, Mason was fired. Luhnow kept a title but lost real power… a demotion in real, practical terms. TLR’s increased clout and input to building the team for 2011 is a stark demonstration of who won the fight… and it wasn’t Jeff Luhnow..
Agree or disagree, this is my interpretation… my opinion based on what I’ve read, seen, and on my own experiences. I freely admit to engaging in speculation, hopefully, informed speculation. As the Silver Fox famously sang, nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors. But I’ve learned that what looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, is probably a duck. This move looks like a demotion, waddles like a demotion and quacks like a demotion.
As for his trying to adopt McGwire’s philosophies, Ryan said, “I don’t want to throw ‘Big Mac’ under the bus. I was trying to get better. I tried something new. It wasn’t his fault. The stuff he was teaching wasn’t wrong or anything. I just think I learned that I’m not strong enough to do some of those things.”
Glad we finally hear this issue resolved.
Here is the link to the story WC quoted.
Every time a team does not win its division, which is many years, it has to make a few changes to freshen up the roster and say it is trying to improve, so as to sell tickets. You can’t have the same scapegoats, year after year. Ticket-selling makes the world go round.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/baseball/mlb/la-sp-dodgers-fox-20110225,0,2429465.story?track=rss
Several interesting twists here……….McCourts moves are obvious……… but the Commish sure is going somewhere with this………
My first thought was that perhaps the commish doesn’t want McCourt saved and right afterward I wondered if the problem was with who would be doing the saving.
“…Craig isn’t viewed as a major league third baseman …”.
http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/27/wallace-and-the-hot-seat/
I like it better not all scrunched to the right.
In Brazil they would say ‘Craig não é visto como uma major league terceira base’.
It would be interesting to know if Brian had a particular source for that, or if it was just common knowledge among those in the know. Also would like to know the same about Gould’s source for his ‘better at third than Wallace’ statement. (or would he claim it was common knowledge among those in the know) kkkkkkkk
Craig played circa 120 games at 3B for Palm Beach and for Springfield. With the glove and arm, he is not Scott Rolen, but he can make some plays. Craig has stayed healthy unlike Freese and he could help us out during 2011. Craig’s bat is much better than Pedro Feliz and Nick Punto. We need some sock out of 3B. In the long run, he may not be Mr. Right, but Craig is Mr. Right for Now.
Well said Oinky. Thanks for not insulting our intelligence. Apply for a job at the P-D.
bb, if my sources had been quotable, I would have named them.
I will say that as soon as Freese had been acquired from San Diego in December 2007, I placed him ahead of Craig in our prospect rankings. I specifically noted defensive concerns at that time. Though I took a fair bit of heat from Craig supporters, it turned out to be the right call.
Thanks for the response. I guess a lot of stuff has changed in a couple years, although probably not Craig’s 3B ability. I concede he may be a more attractive option now than when Glaus was gimpy, but not because he’s gotten any better at the position. But I consider that statement in Gould’s piece to be patronizing if not insulting. Oh well. I’ll live.
I had thought it more than possible that either Freese or Berkman wouldn’t be able to answer the bell for the first game of the season. But now there is a chance that both could miss the first game of spring. Tony’s hope for Freese is now at 110 starts, down from 115. More tidbits come out about Lance. I wonder if the Cards knew his elbow had bothered him while throwing over the winter. The official optimism surrounding both does not seem to correspond to on field reality.
Joe Mather played 3B at Johnson City for two years. The Cards development people had to have decided he did not have the hands or reactions for a ML 3Bman, since the next year he was at 1B, and thereafter in RF. Then after many years of no training at 3B, suddenly the Cards gave Joe a shot, just like Skip got moved to 2B. The reason would be similar as it is with Allen Craig. Mather used to hit for power and TLR wanted to see if Joe could handle himself acceptably at 3rd, so as to bolster the lineup.
Freese and Craig both finished college eligibility in 2006. Freese was from the St Louis area, began at U Missouri, transferred to Meramec CC, then 2 years at S Alabam, with PJ Walters. Craig spent 4 years at U Cal’s flagship campus. Craig played SS his senior year. The Cards popped Craig in the 8th round, just before the Padres selected Freese. So the Cards could have chosen Freese. They were scouting U Alabama, since they selected PJ in the 11th round.
After they turned pro, both Craig and Freese hit in the minors. Freese must have improved via conditioning, because he improved defensively from college. Craig was arm limited for 3B, so the Cards put him on a throwing program. When the Cards had a healthy Glaus and Freese, it made sense to move Craig to corner OF. Then Glaus got hurt, had to give up 3B, and moved to Atlanta. DeRosa got hurt. 3B has been Death Valley for the Birds. Freese has had bad luck with his health too. So now, in 2011, it makes sense to bring a healthy Craig back to 3B, where we have a glaring need. Craig was not horrible at 3B, just crowded out by Glaus and Freese a couple of years ago. We need him at 3B now.
I didn’t read the article and I don’t know from whom the comment is attributable, but over time I have generally found that players still around are treated more favorably than guys that aren’t….
Brian, in looking at archived matrices, I had noticed you ranked Wallace something like #2 and Craig #18 I believe. That was when Craig was still at 3B.
In looking around for ammo I was reminded about Mather being in the thick of the 3B scene for a while. Your ‘hot seat’ description was apt and still is.
Since Wallace was a number one pick, he went high in these kind of guess ratings. It does not mean Wallace was a better prospect at 3B than Craig. Wallace was viewed as the best collegiate hitter in the 2008 draft, and borderline as to whether he could improve at 3B or would have to move to 1B.
Wallace, Mather, and Craig were all good hitters who were not great defenders at 3B. Mather suffered a broken hamate, IIRC. Wallace had value as a trade chip. So its Craig for 3B for us in 2011.
The Padres had Freese train at catcher. The Padres had a lot of depth at 3B at the time and were looking to give Freese another way to advance. The Cards traded for Freese, since they had a need at 3B and let him stay there.