At first blush, there seem few similarities between St. Louis Cardinals first baseman Albert Pujols and New York Yankees shortstop Derek Jeter.
One is a Dominican-born slugger with three Most Valuable Player Awards still in his prime playing years while the other is a US-raised owner of five World Series rings who is approaching the conclusion of a storied career.
There are several common threads, however. They are the acknowledged current on-field leaders of the two most storied franchises in the history of major league baseball as measured by World Series championships, 27 for New York and 10 for St. Louis.
Each is among the most admired men in the game off the field as well. For example, both are past winners of MLB’s Roberto Clemente Award, recognized for commitment to community and helping others.
Another similarity is that each has recently experienced difficulty getting a new contract in place with his only home as a major leaguer.
Heading into the final year of his previous deal in 2010, Jeter announced upon reporting to camp last February that he would not discuss his contract situation until after the season. He also made it clear he had no intention of wearing any uniform other than Yankee pinstripes. The club confirmed their standing policy of no in-season negotiations, as well.
After the season, the 36-year-old Jeter and the Yankees began a negotiation process that each said they wanted to keep private. Instead, it soon spilled into the papers and turned ugly. At one point, Yankees general manager Brian Cashman publicly encouraged his shortstop to search for a better deal elsewhere.
As expected, when all was said and done, there was not a higher offer. Jeter ultimately settled on a three-year, $51 million deal to remain with New York, but the Yankees took a lot of heat for the approach taken with their long-time team captain and feelings were hurt.
“I’d be lying to you if I said I wasn’t angry about how some of this went,” Jeter said at a December press conference to announce his new contract.
Pujols’ current situation as of February 2011 looks much like Jeter’s did one year prior. Player and club are saying the right things about wanting to remain together until death do they part, but are deferring talks until the fall. That enables everyone to focus on the season at hand.
In hindsight, that approach didn’t work out as well as expected for the 2010 Yankees. While they made the playoffs, it was as a Wild Card. Some observers felt the club was unable to kick it into high gear when the post-season began. The defending World Champions lost to Texas in six games in the American League Championship Series.
Among those dissatisfied is Yankees co-chairman Hank Steinbrenner, son of the late “Boss” George Steinbrenner. On Monday, Hank said the following, as reported by ESPN.
“I think, maybe, they celebrated too much last year,” Steinbrenner said. “Some of the players, too busy building mansions and doing other things and not concentrating on winning. I have no problem saying that.”
The remark was a direct shot a Jeter, who was building a large multimillion-dollar home last year. Said to be almost 31,000 square feet, it is the largest residence in Tampa.
While the Yankees may have won the contract battle with Jeter, at what cost was it secured? Their cold war clearly continues on, long after the ink on the new contract has dried.
The Cardinals aren’t yet saying it the same way as the Yankees did with Jeter, but the one key outcome will be the same – Pujols testing his value via free agency.
No one knows exactly where the negotiations will head this fall. Unlike Jeter, Pujols is in the prime of his career and may be looking for a record haul. As such, there should be greater market interest, though the price may scare off some potential bidders.
This fall, St. Louis will likely be faced with a different problem than New York, having to decide whether or not to match a higher offer from another club. The Cardinals could force Pujols to choose between team loyalty and more cash elsewhere. That is the time when the words may start flying, even if a messy Pujols-Cardinals divorce is eventually averted.
Both sides should remain very careful. As the continuing Yankees-Jeter discord indicates, bad feelings can remain even after what appears to be a good outcome has been achieved.
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The Jeter contract was more of a game of chicken than economics. No team was going to give Jeter what the Yankees would and the Yankees thought (I’m not sure why) that Jeter was worth far more to them than the value he brought to them on the field. In the Pujols case, the first one is certainly not the case (maybe the contrary) and I don’t think the Cards see much value in Pujols beyond the field (though some writers and some on this forum do).
The flaw in RC’s position about using a threat to trade Albert as leverage in extension talks before he acquired 10/5 status is that it could (likely would) have poisoned the well and created bad feelings.
If the team’s wants to retain Albert, and I believe they do, treating him disrespectfully, making him angry or threatening to trade him would have been counter-productive. It seems they’ve avoided those things so far… but all bets are off going forward.
My position is this HB……If the Cards had a max offer and they knew it before Albert reached 10/5, they should have thrown it at Albert with the stipulations that he take it or be dealt.
If that is the most you will offer him and he refuses it to heck with the bad feelings. That would mean he isn’t staying after the current contract ends.
Then you would have been working on your team going forward instead of being hamstrung by Albert.
Ken Williams said it best, give me 30 million spread out over a few players and that beats the hecks out of 30 million for one guy. Its obvious that ALbert alone isn’t going to win anything….check the last few years out. He has been awesome and the team has nothing to show for it.
We can argue all day but the team messed up and now they are in a pickle.
One fallacy in that line of thinking is the assumption that the Cardinals pushing a “max offer” two years in advance, forcing an early showdown, was the best thing to do.
They may have determined it would be better for them to gamble that they could sign him for the same amount or less later on. Perhaps they were satisfied in delaying a decision in return for two more years of Pujols’ services in the prime of his career. Only with hindsight do we know that 2009 and 2010 did not turn out well for the team. Had they dealt Pujols and the team cratered in each of the last two seasons, ownership would have been vilified for having given up by trading their best player early. Revenues would likely have taken a dip as well.
Unless any of us are clairvoyant, which we are not, we don’t yet know which strategy will have worked out best.
I continue to find it surprising that from the perspective of a message board that some are so confident they can make better multi-million dollar business decisions than those running the team. Of course, no one is perfect, including ownership, but I will submit that they have access to better information than we do and have exponentially more at risk personally.
I agree that we don’t know what management is thinking. I do know that I think they can’t win letting Pujols go to FA. Time will tell how it works out and we can analyze it to death then.
RC, since you admire Kenny Williams’ point of view, do you think it is prevalent across MLB? In other words, do you think others will agree that $30 million for Pujols is “asinine”, as Williams says? If my memory serves me correctly, Andy MacPhail in Baltimore recently made a similar conclusion.
If so, what should have been that “max offer” for Pujols two years ago?
Just maybe, the market will come back around to the Cardinals and they will not have “messed up”, after all.
If I recall…….KW was aware of the 09 collusion…..now settled…..before it happened.
The trip to see Andrews……….OBVIOUSLY…….had more consequences than most are aware of…
All of baseball ownerships interests have some commonality……… but the ultra wealthy obviously have “games they play”…………………………. there are many variables, dictating many different leverage points on the way to 2012………… I believe BD has escaped the AP “black hole”………which was his intension…………very few of the possibilities lead Pujols back here …………. but those are the ones that you should fear ……
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110222&content_id=16702732¬ebook_id=16704944&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws
Di Pujols use a black helicopter or in a stealth spy plane to transport him to see Dr. Andrews?
Di = Did
First off Brian, I don’t claim and never have claimed to be smarter than the people who own and run the cardinals. My opinions are just that, my opinions. I tell my wife all the time that I never claim to believe that my opinions on this life are always right, but its just what I believe to be right. There is a difference.
You don’t get money making advice from a broke guy…….which is what I am.
And with everything that has been said by people on both sides of the issue I believe that the Cards never entertained trading Albert because of money not winning. In other words, Cardinal fans love Albert and show up at the park to watch him, filling the park, buying all sorts of goodies and are happy in their ignorance. The ignorance being that having Albert equals championships. Its the people around Albert that won the last Cardinal championship, and that what has been lacking.
Furthermore, if the Cardinals were serious about placing winning over money Albert should have been dealt unless the club knew he could be re-signed either sooner or later…..even then imo he should have been traded in order to put a better team on the field (see Texas).
Now even if the Cardinals do re-sign Albert (and I do believe that they will), I doubt that the Cardinals will see the playoffs again except for some lottery winning chance lucky year in Alberts next 8 years in St. Louis. The Cardinals will make sure Albert stays in St. Louis for money reasons, not because they plan on winning championships. You see, they consider making money winning.
And fans will keep on coming to the park just to see this iconic figure and they will rationalize the losing by saying they would rather have Albert than to have traded him for a chance at winning because he is the next Stan Musial.
I spoke with a ML Bureau Scout on monday at our opening day and he told me that the Cardinals are run by businessmen, not baseball people, and that he doubted if they would ever do much winning again. But they will continue to make gobs of money because thats what their people know how to do. I thought it was Westy dressed up as a scout listening to him talk. And this guy pitched in the big leagues for over 10 years…..he wasn’t some new aged scout or baseball nerd.
DeWitt’s father was an owner and he has been around the game pretty much his entire life. In your definition, which successful baseball teams are run by baseball people, not businessmen?
Without evidence, you state as if fact that ownership cares about making money, not winning, as if the two are mutually exclusive. Apparently, ownership’s track record over the last 15 years should be ignored and being in business with the intent to make money is a bad thing.
Going forward, we should accept that winning is through because some scout and ex-player told you so.
I would venture a guess that every owner would be a really good businessman. And untimately you have to make money to stay in business and remain an owner.
Fact? Come on, I just went through an entire HB type post declaring that I don’t propose to know anything and that these are my uneducated opinions. Nowhere did I state that it was a bad thing to want to make money, or want to make money. And 15 years of winning records in the Central division does not a juggernaut make.
Not at all, but the fact that most in the business that I have spoken with seem to believe that winning in St. Louis is fast approaching an end. And to a man those same people believe that when the cards sign Albert to a huge deal that will solidify their fate as not winning again for a while. Their opinions are just as irrelevent as mine is but the fact that many a baseball person believes it makes you at least try to analyze why they would think that.
And my entire argument is not about the Cardinals business ability in its entirity but their possible miscalculation of this Albert Pujols affair. And until it is settled nobody is in the wrong. But we can surely talk about the possible blunder if the cardinals get two draft picks and Albert is somewhere else, or the fact that giving him billions is or was the right thing to do.
But in my uneducated opinion, Albert should have been dealt to make the team better. But that may have cost dollars and imuo that is the bottom line.
Make relish………..number two is where the money is.
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_62138098-3da7-11e0-a73c-00127992bc8b.html
I really liked this “angle”…………. God is amazing in his creativity……………..
I fail to comprehend the logic here. Either Pujols signs a contract that he is satisfied with
9or he wouldn’t sign it) or he doesn’t and is traded. We are going to care if his feathers got ruffled when we have traded him?
Not suprising… we’ve already discovered that logic isn’t your strongest position, haven’t we?
That’s why you were sent to Batavia this winter.
The necessary assumption is that the team wants to retain Albert, wanted to retain him last year and want to retain him now. If you listen to what BDII & Mo have been saying all through the last several years, they’ve never entertained the idea of trading Albert, ever. So the tactic RC has been humping… using a threat of a trade to induce him to sign an extension… has always had that piece of reality to bump against. The team has stated flatly and repeatedly that they don’t want to trade him.
Personally, I think it would be near impossible to get return in trade that would cost less than AP’s $16M the last two years that could replace his production.
So all I was saying is that if you use a trade as a empty threat, it causes hard feelings and is counterproductive of keeping Albert here… which I believe was the goal last year and remains the goal now.
Who’s talking about an empty threat? If you want to make the argument that you can’t get enough in production to make up for Albert’s bargain salary that is a different salary. I think Texas with their Texeira haul (and their world championship) would disagree with you.
San Diego it seems would also disagree as Gonzalez has as much excess value in his contract in one year as Pujols had in two but traded him for far less than we could have gotten for Pujols a year ago.
I don’t apologies for not understanding things that dont exist.
When did Texas win a World Championship? Best I recall the Giants won the Series last year… unless there’s an alternate universe in the southern hemisphere. The difference-maker for them last year was Lee, and a division that underperformed.
Look, my point isn’t very complex. What didn’t exist at any time was a desire of the owners of this team to trade Albert. There’s a legitimate arguement to be made whether that was the right move or not, but that’s the way it is.
Any talk about trade in that context while trying to sign him to an extension would be empty. It’s really not that hard and it’s no more conceptual than talking about what you could get in a trade that was never going to happen.
Not surprising that boot lickers want to hide behind “the water over the damn” scenario rather than have to hear legitimate criticism of those who screwed the pooch.
Look CC, what you do in the privacy of your own home is your business. But you really should leave tales about your unusual activities with dogs and footwear off this blog, you freak!
Hoover Damn? World Champion Rangers? Whatever it is they smoke down there, best lay off of it, dude! It’s messing you up and making you more surly, kinky and slow-witted than usual.
I see I hit too close to home.
Swung and missed is more like it… back to the Batavia bench, sitting there, commando, day-dreaming about your dog in ‘manly footwear’…
I would seriously question a mentality that would stubbornly refuse to trade a player, only to let him walk away in FA. Management has yet to show me why their apparent strategy makes sense.
Well said.
Right. An incomplete grade is very fair. A failed grade is not.
When I guy continually says things like, “I want to be a Cardinal for life”, you have to think they believe they can eventually get it done. They may be wrong, and those words may have been insincere… we shall see.
If it doesn’t happen, I predict they’ll be no shortage of blame to go around and fingers being pointed.
The blame will fall entirely on the Cardinals and how they allowed the situation to play out. Good business dictates that you try to control 300 million dollar business decisions and not let them hinge on a guy saying “I want to be a cardinal for life”.
Getting an early start!
Just where I can say I told ya so.
I gave you full credit on the “I told you so” for Waino. Hoping to even the score this winter!
I don’t know how you do it RC………..its like “a miracle”……….
Really though, CC, I don’t know why we even bother discussing this stuff. Westy has is it all figured out already, black helicopters, collusion, confusion, et. al. ………………………………..
“Is that what the Cardinals will do if they can’t get Pujols signed? Spread the “Pujols” dollars around on several players? Would chairman Bill DeWitt Jr. do that, or would a Pujols defection prompt the owner to cut payroll? There’s a long way to go before any of this is pertinent.”
Like hell there’s a long way to go……………
This is why your analogy is weak Brian…………. there are a least a dozen teams that would fight to give AP a three year 100 million dollar contract…………. Cardinals not being one of them in my opinion………… Lozano has unlimited flexibility in this matter…….. if Albert is pissed he can go that way……….. Jeter had no takers………… Lozano can break up a collusion by taking a 1 or two year deal for large dollars………..teams will borrow money to pay Albert for a short window to capitalize on an alignment of talent already under contract………….. AP/Lozano have endless leverage…………………..unless AP blows a fuse this year………..I don’t see that happening at this point…….I believe he knows he’s leaving and is resigned to enhancing his market value……..
I sense the intended message in my post has been missed by several here. Here is the Cliffs Notes version:
Even if Pujols ends up back with the Cardinals, ongoing damage to the relationship could be caused if the negotiations are not handled with extreme care.
Jeter is just an example as no two situations are alike.
There is bad blood………….. likely….dark enough red to concern everyone……. It is in Pujols best interest to maintain his “apparent” relationship with the club…… even though they really tried to piss him off in the last three months……….. all those weird bids…..and subsequent leaking, were more than misinformation/misdirection……………look at the story lines in the Post…… they will be doing that all season long……everyone in baseball will be doing it……….. if Kinney Williams gets a shot at a 3yr deal…….White Sox will be front runners………… for the good of baseball, let Albert go…..its hard enough staying healthy and engaged let alone being the “lone gun”…..
Lets talk about Colby’s swing…………….
This group is straining for relevance Brian………….
Does anyone see the difference concerning the public expectations surrounding this topic?
If the Cardinals pressure AP with a trade threat…… 1) they would need to be prepared to be judged on their offer……..especially if he excepted it……which is a heavy judgment……..
2) If he was traded refusing their offer at 200 large……….comes the expectation that they were willing to spend a bunch of money…..and should compensate by contributing a good amount of that to a talent pool……….. they may well have ended up in a position to have to pay another talent…..Gonzales comes to mind……………. 3) as they profess there desire, as AP does, that the cruel realities of unfair market competitions, makes them victims of circumstance beyond their control, and of course because of the delay, “weren’t in a position” to get anything they liked from the FA market in 2012. …………………4) as it is Carpenter, unless he has a successful injury free year, will not have his option picked up by the deadline because of the pending AP offer….(excuse)…..whether thats good or bad is liable to be controversial…………he will then likely sign with someone else………………..AP juggling will create a large accumulation of “Dry powder” in all likely hood……….. gotta pay Davis back for his little loan.
I could care less about AP………. the play that BD will likely make……….sucks……..
I will leave you all with a nice blade I’ve sharpened, should you desire a change in the most likely of these scenarios……………………………………………the Punto injury exposes Freese even more. Since its Tony’s move, its very unlikely to be covered with another move……. thats”keep Albert” ball isn’t it? At least follow what is going on here………..like Berkman being the new advertising focus.
RC, sadly, you were right about Waino.
I learned last night that he may have experienced a problem yesterday. I asked Mo, who just sent me this:
“Adam Wainwright experienced discomfort in his elbow after throwing on Monday. He is being sent to St. Louis to be evaluated and may seek a second opinion. As of now, it does not appear to be a good situation.”
Time to panic…
Article posted on the main site.
Unfortunately history has shown those type of injuries to follow a similar path. That is a kick in the gut for sure to this team.
Damn damn damn. I am going to cry.
Thank goodness they still have Albert HB as he still be on a HOF run and put up HOF numbers. Thats the important thing.
Well, it’s not a bad thing. Beats keeping a running count of young Rasmus’s strike outs or the number of times he falls asleep manning CF…
Ouch…….dammit HB, if I was a sensitive person that would have hurt my feelings. Hey if I had my way you would be keeping count when he was playing against the cardinals but until that time comes you will have to suffer through those nasty K’s and shitty outfield play. One things for sure, without Waino it really won’t matter….we can just all enjoy watching Albert put up his Hall of Fame numbers and continue to listen to your wet dreams about him.
RCW- you seem like the one who is obsessing about Albert…………spoon get stuck?
Something terrible has happened to Cardinal Nation and you guys are squabbling like school boys. Grow the hell up.
crdswmn-get a grip.Life goes on.Have your hissy fit onn your own time.
Trying to bring you out BW.
HB is an Albert knee padder, and you know me, love to pick pick pick. 
I actually hate this for Adam. Like I have stated many times, he is one of the best people I believe I have ever met. This might quite possibly cost him dollars and I really hate that for him. He’ll bounce back from Tommy John and be as good or better so he will be back. The team will go on and this will just be another kids chance to be the next Adam Wainwright and injuries are part of the game. I would be sad if Adam had cancer or something but come on……Adam will be fine and he will pitch again. The cardinals will be fine as well. I’m not sure they were the favorites in my mind before so this does little other than push the cardinals further back in the pack.
RCW-I hope you are right about Waino.Isn`t 2 years about the time frame for complete return to form? Seems to be the general time.Agree it is a big loss ………………….the season still will go on and the Cards have tio deal with it.Some fans apparently can`t.
Some come back quicker than others but I can say that with the players I’ve had it has taken them closer to the 18 months to be back at full strength. But they don’t have the resources that Adam will have at his disposal so you may see Adam back quicker than 18 months. I do believe the recovery time is somewhere between 12 and 18 months though for what its worth.
Wasn’t Jaime’s a short recovery? Do you think Adams age might factor into length? Or is he still young enough to recoup quickly?
Jaime was back in 12, but it was near the end of the season and they watched him carefully in the minors during his return. Then he could rest. Because of the off-season, it was about 18 before he was back in the bigs. Even then, TLR and Duncan were nervous.
What you are failing to notice…………it seems………that it was Palletta that sent it into spring training…….avoiding any off season moves to guard against the “expected”……. he “likely wasn’t the only one who got this treatment………….. this will take him into mid season next year….invalidating his contract guarantees I believe……… more dry powder………..second opinion? Andrews……why…..why do you think.
I wonder what this means in AP game?????
If this were the only issue, I say the Cardinals would be fine. But it likely isn’t. Carpenter better go real easy this spring………there is no available pitching…..ask the Yankees.
It means the Cardinal fans get to watch AP put up numbers again this year and the tream will still have a winning record. That is enough.
Well I doubt this was anything but a total Wainwright decision. I’m sure he would have tried rehab before ever agreeing to surgery for the UCL because of his contract status and the options. I doubt any player would put much faith in what the team doctor would say without getting an unbiased opinion from a second Doc.
Or not……………….. he couldn’t move on that under contract. He could have got his second opinion though…………. and had a full season next year………. this was going to happen. Bottom line……like Paletta’s attempt to do the surgery for AP before the 09 season……….. anyone think that could have influenced our current situation?………….. having AP numbers broken up a bit? Welcome to the world of “its not about baseball”………………
Wainwright won’t get hurt financially all that bad RC…… He will be looking at a long range deal soon enough. He has spending money.
The issue here concerns his breaking pitch. It won’t really be the same till 2013. He will need to stay within himself a bit more during his reentry in June 2012. That will be to an Albert less team of weak hitters and transvestites…………….. Adam got cheated here by BD, and he likely knows it at this point. He will undergo surgery within a week……. I’m guessing Yokum because of problems with Andrews………..Palletta did Carpenter……..but that ain’t happening here.
On a positive note…………… Westbrooke is still getting stronger……Lohse does better when he is needed as in 2008………. Garcia, if he is smart, will gage himself somewhat for a few years to get to the money (Liriano) ………. He should still pitch well………I don’t see why we can’t expect someone to step up…….they signed 3 or 4 veterans (for a reason?) which could come in handy. Maybe a kid pulls a Garcia…………… The KMac idea is a poor one…….he has always had problems with endurance, and changing his role further exposes Franklin……….
The real issue is going to be Carpenters shoulder……if that goes……end of story……..
I say we will be fine………..there is a positive here……the offense must produce big time, because the horses aren’t going to be pulling the weight this year………
To me, this is another reason to hit AP forth………we need to run up front instead of trying to help discourage his walks…………. Maybe BD’s clever move backfires………….
Since when did you turn punk Tex…….mouthy too……… from the bench no less……….. I trust Brian values the environment here enough put you in your place. I wish RC wouldn’t encourage you. Argue with the Brazilian somewhere. Try the Scout sight.