Some assessments of the contract situation between Albert Pujols and the St. Louis Cardinals suggest the team has lost all negotiating leverage with the player. As such, the club must eventually pay whatever the player demands to keep him, goes this line of thinking.
Such a narrow view does not take into account a number of important counterbalances, including one that may hold a more lasting value for Pujols than temporarily becoming baseball’s highest-paid player.
I am referring to Pujols’ quest to become a career-long franchise icon, the likes of which has not been seen in St. Louis since Stan Musial.
Other than perhaps Pujols himself, no one knows the relative importance of these two factors – maximizing money and years in his next contract versus his attempt to eventually replace Musial as being accepted as the greatest Cardinal ever – or at least earn a spot next to Stan the Man on the top pedestal.
As Pujols’ self-imposed Wednesday contract negotiating deadline nears, some who are attuned to pulse of the fan as measured by message board posts and radio call-in shows are sensing a turn of opinion in support of the position of the Cardinals over their first baseman. Of course, these opinions have been set without any substantive knowledge of the contract parameters being discussed.
If Pujols eventually decides to leave St. Louis behind, his only home as a major leaguer, he would forfeit his place on the following top 15 list. It is a unique group of players, pulled by researcher Tom Orf.
The following are those men who have played the most games as a Cardinal without having appeared in even one game as a major leaguer while wearing another uniform.
Most games played, entire career with St. Louis Cardinals
| Rank | Player | Games | Start Year | End Year | Age |
| 1 | Stan Musial | 3026 | 1941 | 1963 | 20-42 |
| 2 | Albert Pujols | 1558 | 2001 | 2010* | 21-30 |
| 3 | Terry Moore | 1298 | 1935 | 1948 | 23-36 |
| 4 | Pepper Martin | 1189 | 1928 | 1944 | 24-40 |
| 5 | Tom Pagnozzi | 927 | 1987 | 1998 | 24-35 |
| 6 | Whitey Kurowski | 916 | 1941 | 1949 | 23-31 |
| 7 | Mike Shannon | 882 | 1962 | 1970 | 22-30 |
| 8 | Yadier Molina | 805 | 2004 | 2010* | 21-27 |
| 9 | Ray Blades | 767 | 1922 | 1932 | 25-35 |
| 10 | Ernie Orsatti | 701 | 1927 | 1935 | 24-32 |
| 11 | Bob Gibson | 596 | 1959 | 1975 | 23-39 |
| 12 | Skip Schumaker | 586 | 2005 | 2010* | 25-30 |
| 13 | Rube Ellis | 555 | 1909 | 1912 | 23-26 |
| 14 | Specs Toporcer | 546 | 1921 | 1928 | 22-29 |
| 15 | Austin McHenry | 543 | 1918 | 1922 | 22-26 |
| * current |
Not surprisingly, Pujols is currently second, but a very distant second. To put his challenge into context, even if he could maintain a 150-game per season pace, it would take Pujols another complete decade to pass Musial. In contract terms, it would require nine more years with the club after his existing commitment expires.
If achieved, Albert would be 41 years old at the time. Note that there is no way to speed up ones’ pace in ascending this list. Growing career games played requires both durability and good fortune. Avoiding wars would help, too.
A pair of Musial’s former teammates, centerfielder Terry Moore and outfielder/third baseman Pepper Martin, each of whose service time with St. Louis was interrupted by World War II, are the only two other lifetime Cardinals with over 1,000 career games played. Having missed three seasons each, they would both still likely be ahead of Pujols had they been able to play contiguously.
By definition, this list is skewed toward everyday position players and away from those that appear less frequently, specifically pitchers. As such, Bob Gibson is the only hurler in the top 15, ranked at number 11 in exclusive career games played despite 17 years of service with the club.
Along with Pujols, two other current Cardinals are among the top 15. Yadier Molina is eighth and should pass the top catcher on the list, Tom Pagnozzi, during the 2011 season. Second baseman Skip Schumaker is 12th. Of course, Molina and Schumaker would disappear from this list if they were to eventually join another organization.
Same for Pujols, something that most would prefer does not happen.
Follow me on Twitter.
Follow The Cardinal Nation Blog on Facebook.
Although I know it to be true, it still surprises me the Schumaker is the third longest tenured homegrown position player.
Gibson’s greatness shines through, in the table. If his appearances are multiplied by 4 or 5, to compensate for being a starting pitcher, Gibson gets up near Musial for games played.
“The club must eventually play what the player demands.” Not sure it is just about what the player demands. McGwire has said Albert is a $30million year player. Albert wants his fair market value. Next winter bidding can establish what Albert’s value is. Albert can just sit back and see how it all turns out. No demands.
It is word games as far as I am concerned, Herkimer. There have been reported rumors that Team Pujols asked/requested/floated/expected 10 years/$300 million last year. Did they make a demand? Probably not at that point, at least.
Have they threatened free agency if this week’s bid is unsatisfactory? We don’t know, but it wouldn’t be surprising.
If Pujols is after top dollar this fall/winter, the following scenario is not only quite possible, it is probable. Team A offers $30 million, then Albert expects/requests/demands/pick your verb at least that much from the Cardinals or he takes Team A’s deal.
Unless McGwire is paying the bill, what he said in October 2009 before becoming a team employee is immaterial to setting Pujols’ market value, IMHO. Read the article at the link including McGwire’s earlier comments critical of escalating salaries across the game, including this quote:
Agree about Gibson. If there was a way to get service time in years and days for the old time players, it would be just as good or perhaps better measure.
I thought it would be usefull to look at Stan’s 5 seasons age 36 through 40. That would be the second half of a ten year span beginning with his age 31 season. My quick math came up with the following averages per season:
G 124, PA 479, R 59, RBI 68, HR 18, BA .304.
Not bad at all for an older player. About as good as anybody could reasonably expect without PEDs.
Interesting stuff, bb. Not bad for an old guy but not exactly $30M man stuff either…
USA Today is reporting that Pujols has rejected the Cardinals’ offer. He wants 10 years and will not talk in camp, says the article.
I guess the blackout is breaking down. Details of the offer should appear soon. Try to scoop that Brian.
There is no scoop BB………..Lozano phoned an independent so it wouldn’t be held up in channels for a counter move by BD……….he’s a player.
I guess Albert doesn’t care about looking like the bad guy. No statue in front of Busch Stadium for him.
Last year, 3 of the 5 highest paid people in St. Louis were Cardinals.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/article_2da43437-aac5-5ea9-a94a-bb7f6b7b1e74.html
Just about everybody has picked up the Albert turns down offer story, except the PD. I’d guess they are waiting for marching orders.
Twitter hasn’t exploded yet. It appears people are waiting for the PD guys to confirm it. Some aren’t sure about the USA story’s credibility.
Bob Nightengale has been around for a long time. Doesn’t mean his rumor is true but he is a recognizable veteran reporter. Perhaps despite all the kvetching the locals were just scooped.
Perhaps.
I’ll tell you what happened Brian……….. Lozano headed off BD/Mo’s Tuesday maneuver himself. This has been a 3 person negotiation……..Billy 3 probably hasn’t even been involved I’d wager.
Their announcement of the offer at that point was intended to create a fracture in player/ agent relationship……….. 190 million and no more hassles are a true temptation. There is some bad blood developing here though…………if we get to a point where we need to make a money move, and BD doesn’t respond……. its going to stink worse than usual. Lozano made that call. He knows what he’s about.
Tony has stepped up a little early…….likely because of Lozano’s play……… funny thing is, now that its been refused……..they can just give a higher number if they want….. good entertainment.
The Cards official MLB site has a blurb on the Nightengale story now. No new info.
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110213&content_id=16628342&vkey=news_stl&c_id=stl
The Nightingale story makes no claim to time………I’m guessing Brian must have been suggesting that it was a validation that an offer was made at some time…..I was deeked…. plenty of energy in the denials though……wasn’t there………. it doesn’t matter…….he won’t be signed by anyone this year.
STLToday’s headline says Albert rejects “latest” offer. The USA scoop article does not call it the “latest”.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/article_7f511f48-37e0-11e0-b9d1-0017a4a78c22.html
The article I read said the offer was made two weeks ago.
The article has already changed since I read it a few minutes ago.
Buster Olney is one who says the rejected offer was made to Pujols two weeks ago.
“more top headlines
Pujols rejects latest offer, USA Today reports”
That’s a copy and paste from the stltoday site. As I posted above, USA did not say he rejected the “Latest” offer.
Cards only willing to guarantee 6 years.
ESPN have a crew at RDS all next week.
TLR talking about the union pushing for top dollar.
Juicey. Should be a fun week.
(Franklin is happy to be knocked out of the news)
The Union isn’t pressing BB..there is no precedent for these contracts………….Tony is just trying to get Albert a couple of breathes………… watch the arbitration between Toronto and 54 hr’s……3 million separation.
This morning the story has been further edited to have the Cards willing to guatantee 7 years. Last night it said 6.
Here come the leaks in the dam.
Nightengale noted his source was from the Pujols side. The other side corrects Strauss’ story to make them look better. Quite possible.
It could turn into a PR battle hear soon. I am excited to watch Albert this year having to deal with this mess. This may turn out to be a good thing for the team as Matt may take over the leadership role since Albert may be playing resembling a lame duck. Optimism is creeping in and I’m starting to feel all googely eyed like HB and BW.
What do you expect from a guy with tight pants and a little black mask?
Well if I ever get an inkling to play dress up I feel like you have shown a deeper knowledge of such a thing than most anybody I associate with so you’ll be my go to guy if I decide to venture to San Fran Texas and put me on some tight pants and a mask and want to ride someone while they are on a 4′s.
Well you know TLR is going to be jumping in to save his boy now. ITs not Alberts fault he hasn’t signed yet, its the big bad ol unions fault. If not for the union Albert would have been signed a month ago.
If the Cardinals offered 7/210 then Pujols is crazy not to take it. His problem is Lozano is looking for the big score and wants Pujols to go for FA. Rumor has it Lozano is already discreetly shopping around with other teams. If Pujols really wants to stay with the Cardinals he needs to put Lozano on a short leash. If it just about money, then Pujols and Lozano are a match made in heaven and the Cardinals fans should say bye bye now.
I sense it may be too late for any reeling in. One thing I truly believe in this saga is that Pujols does not want to talk contract while focusing on baseball.
Too late why?
I have felt all along that the Cardinals had no chance on signing Albert unless they agreed to his 10/300 demand. Anything short of that was gonna lead to Albert testing the market and therefore forcing the Cardinals to beat any other offer that Albert gets from the other teams. And like we have said before, the cardinals will ultimately have to beat every other offer. And maybe that was their plan all along.
I don’t see the Cardinals willing to pay 10/300 or more. If Pujols reaches FA, he’s gone.
They were never going to sign him before he reached free agency without any leverage to force him into a decision unless they were going to be willing to meet his number.
I still believe they sign him its just gonna cost what his number was to begin with. They messed up if they were trying to get him for less than what he wants.
I’ve been fortunate to be able to speak with a bunch of agents over the last 2 months as they are around looking at 2 of my kids that are gonna be top 50 pick guys.
They all say the same things, that the cardinals held off from putting any pressure on Albert because they thought he was really gonna give them some sort of discount. Albert didn’t want to be traded so Albert made them think what they wanted to think until he got to 10/5. Then he changed his tune and the cardinals were stuck. And they remain bogged down until they get it through their thick heads that all they can do now is give AP what he wants.
Or they can let him walk, which is the more likely scenario.
I may be wrong but I just don’t see that happening.
I disagree with your last sentence, RC. Why do you think ownership does not understand their current position? If they have to pay market price, why not wait and see what the market will bear? It may be less than Pujols expects. It likely won’t be any more than 10/$300. so why not take the risk and let it play out?
Well I actually agree that the cardinals understand their current position, and I actually agree that they will swoop in at the last minute to sign Albert at whatever the market dictates. And they have little choice but to pay the 300 for 10 or wait it out, and the waiting it out seems the better plan at this point.
Something that has entered into my thinking after speaking with a few people over the weekend at a baseball conference is that maybe Albert really wants to win in these last few years of his prime so to speak. And if so does playing in St. Louis provide the best place for actually winning a World Series championship to take place? Maybe Albert realizes that if the Cardinals pay him what he is worth then that will, during his time in St. Louis, hamstring the team as far as winning goes. In that case he may be looking for the best dollars + the best chance to win every year.
Team chairman Bill DeWitt, Jr. has left town to fly Musial and members of The Man’s family to Washington. DeWitt will accompany them to Tuesday’s ceremony at the White House.
This suggests that BD wants to be at a press conference Wednesday………he could have easily used this as an excuse not to be………………………..its also theater……looks like the Cardinals are trying there best and AP is just obstinate………… there should be a counter move coming……
I think the Cards value the PR aspect of this negotiation. I’m not sure the Pujols camp cares that much. (maybe they should but they dont)
They know the outcome already. Don’t forget, the Cardinals are the foundation of Lozano’s prospective market in 2012. He has to keep them in place……they know it, so they are taking as much flesh as they can…………they are just starting to pressure AP…….thats the sad part.
If Albert didn’t jump on a 7/210 offer then it becomes clear that Albert wants a AAV and total value of the contract to be higher than ARods.
I still say, and I’ve beaten this dead horse to a pulp, that this should have been dealt with in a more businesslike way by the cardinals. Just saying……again and again, and again.