A reminder that suspicions about Albert Pujols’ age remain, ten years after he first became a major leaguer.
Even before St. Louis Cardinals superstar first baseman Albert Pujols rocketed into national baseball prominence in 2001, questions ebbed and flowed about his age. Was he really born in January 1980 or was it earlier?
Now that as much as $300 million may be riding on his upcoming age 32-41 decade, the issue is slipping back into the forefront via the national media, albeit through the usual side door.
ESPN’s Rob Neyer most recently raised the subject via his very first answer in a Tuesday managed chat session, but as is customary in rumor reporting, the writer did not identify those whispering into his ear.
“Look, I’m going to say this now and maybe never again in this space, but … There are still some reasonably intelligent people with reasonable doubts about Pujols’ age. Just for the sake of argument, if he’s actually 33 or 34 would you give him eight years? Nine years? Ten?,” Neyer asked his worldwide audience.
It is only natural for some to wonder. After all, a number of players from the Dominican Republic have been caught with falsified ages and/or identifications. Perhaps the most recent high-profile example is infielder Miguel Tejada, who aged two years, ironically as the result of a 2008 ESPN investigation.
Prior to becoming the New York Mets’ new general manager earlier this winter, Sandy Alderson had been assigned to the Dominican by Major League Baseball specifically to try to stem the rising tide of age and identify fraud cases.
Pujols’ situation is a bit different in that he first came to the US as a teenager, at the age of 16. Before leaving the Dominican, he had been given a look by both the Florida Marlins and Oakland A’s, but was not signed. After a brief stop in New York, Pujols and his family moved to the Kansas City area, where he played two seasons of high school ball and one in community college before becoming a professional.
Back as early as the summer of 2003, even before Pujols signed his current eight-year contract that has one year remaining, there were tough questions – and strong reactions – about his alleged age.
Sports Illustrated ran a piece in July 2003 in which Pujols’ former coach Marty Kilgore of Maple Woods Community College lashed out at the accusations.
“Anything people want to check, go back to the Dominican Republic and pull what they can pull,” says Kilgore, who remains a close friend of Pujols’. “All I know is I’ve seen all the green cards and birth certificates — and his word is good enough for me.
“I’ve been dealing with this ever since he got here. You had parents and kids complaining, questioning his age. Jealousy. Because we got a big strong kid that can do something. He’s got an accent — they don’t understand him. Hell, nobody wanted him. Everybody wanted to hold him down. They still want to make an excuse for this guy being as great as he is.
“One of the greatest baseball players ever to put on a jockstrap and they don’t want to buy into it. What they don’t get is Albert’s life is so simple. He loves his wife [Deidre] and baseball. He doesn’t get sidetracked. If this kid stays healthy, in 15 years he can tell them all to go kiss his butt. Screw his age.”
Since then, exactly half of those 15 years, or 7 ½ years, have elapsed. Back to 2003…
Kilgore staunchly vouches for Pujols’ 23 candles.
“I mean 23 or 25, what difference does it make? But the fact is he’s 23,” says Kilgore. “What ticks me off is it’s a character issue. He takes it that way and I take it that way. This is a personal slam on what he says.”
Pujols’ high school coach, Dave Fry, and Phil Caldarella, a school district official and summer league coach, agree.
“I was around him every day at the school,” Caldarella says. “He may look like a man, but he was just a kid.”
Could these educators have been wrong? Could they have been duped? Were they not motivated to ask the tough questions?
Could Pujols have subsequently eluded post-9/11 crackdowns on foreigners’ paperwork? (He became a US citizen in 2007.)
With the reputations of so many sports heroes having been tarnished or destroyed, are people hopelessly conditioned to assume guilt before innocence?
Perhaps, but after ten years during which Pujols has had the highest possible visibility as baseball’s best player and given the segment of our society that elevates those who bring others down, by now would not have someone unearthed even a shred of evidence to validate the suspicions?
With the Cardinals and Pujols’ representatives getting into very serious, potentially record-breaking territory with the money in his new contract, wouldn’t Major League Baseball and the Cardinals especially, who have so much riding on this, have checked out Pujols’ background in every way imaginable?
Despite this, the unsubstantiated whispers continue, just as they first surfaced over a decade ago.
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Pujols age and the Obama birth certificate – the mysteries of life!
No doubt, O is Keynesian!
I hadn’t realized that fellow players and parents were complaining that he was older than stated way back in high school and community college. Interesting.
IMO, Albert is now a righteous man. I have no idea what he was like when he was a teenager in the Dominican. I also have no idea what sort of ‘guidance’ he may have received as a teenaged player in the Dominican being looked at by MLB orgs. But I can guess. Whether he would have been influenced by shady advice at that point in his life I have no idea. I wouldn’t hold it against him now. But it is still relevant, especially now.
Brian makes a good point about somebody like Albert being subject to extreme scrutiny. One would think a smoking gun would have been discovered by now. Presumably, those promoters, or whatever they are called, know how to bury the smoking guns deep. Still, the lack of anything so far is important.
Well it looks like the technology might exist for proving one of the two things above.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071106101204.htm
In addition to the bone density exams for skeletal age as CC noted, a couple of summers ago, I had a conversation with a baseball official about DNA testing, which could be used to verify parentage. Tests very expensive, take time, etc. Not clear how often, it ever used.
I’m sure the folks in charge have a pretty good idea of what’s true and what’s not true but it wouldn’t help the Cardinals to come out and say that Albert is 33 or 34 so even if true I doubt you would ever hear that type of stuff come out.
And I’m pretty positive Albert wouldn’t jump to the front of the line to volunteer for that test.
Brazil is more developed and probably less corrupt than the D.R. I can get a new identity here (including original birth certificate) for less than $500 – $1000. I can do this by either paying a family to assume the identity of one of their children (possibly even one who has deceased) who was never registered at birth. Or I can magically appear as a new person out of no where by making a “contribution” to the local diocese who will then make a declaration of when i was born and my birth name which I can then take to get a birth certificate (no matter how many years after the fact) and any other documents I need.
Interesting CC. Does a person from Brazil have any trouble traveling to and around the U.S., airport procedures, Homeland Security, etc. If not, its kind of disturbing. Osama could be some Brazilian guy living in Miami. No wonder we can’t find him.
Well, they still need a Visa to enter the country and that depends on another set of criteria but many documents used in that determination can be falsified as well. The state dept used to have document fraud investigators at the embassies/consulates here but I’m pretty sure they did away with them.
I have actually had some dealings with some dominican kids and their agents over the years with the agents trying to get players into some high schools here in the states. I never spoke to a parent. I did have one move in to play for me and to say they can basically pick an age that they feel comfortable with is an understatement.
I had more than one agent(they call themselves) tell me that if a kid is playing in the states that his age is probably off 2 to 3 years. Who knows whats fact and what is fiction but these guys were from the Dominican telling me this. Heck, maybe Albert is the exception to the rule. The one diamond in a quarry of coal.
And truthfully, who cares? If Albert is 31 or 35 there is no denying the fact that he is a hitting monster.
I care. I hope the team cares.
We are talking about an 8-10 year deal. That matters. It has to.
Yea, I should have been more clear. It hasn’t mattered what Albert’s true age has been to this point so in that respect, who cares? He has been excellent these last 10 years.
From this point forward his age should have a bearing on contract length, that is obvious. He is not the most athletic guy so one can see a Manny type of player right around the corner as he does appear at times to be running on broken glass.
The big money would be in figuring out when he falls of the table production wise because of that body continuing to decline.
I understand your point, for sure. His age doesn’t change what I think he is worth on an AAV basis but it DOES change how long that contract would/should be…
Day #6
I think Pujols is the age he claims. But I still wouldn’t give him 10 years.
Congratulations! And I agree with your point. No to 10 years and also no to $30M/year!
Here is my issue. Some of the people who believe Pujols is older than his stated age are the same ones pushing for 10 years/$300 million and apparently don’t get the connection. It makes no sense whatsoever to commit to pay a 43- or 44-year-old player $30 million per year especially in a league with no DH.
Manny was mentioned above. His last big season was 2008, when he was 36. This year, his age 39 season, he signed a deal for $2 million.
Albert appears to have his head and work ethic going for him (compared to Manny and, well, most players) but I totally agree with being concerned about the back end of this contract. The first five years or so are almost irrelevant to me.
The issue to me is the last two…or FIVE.
This literally just popped into my head so I haven’t had a chance to think it through much…
What about guaranteeing 30×8 ($5MM per deferred), with vesting options for 9 and 10 (such that an injured a non-dominant Albert would not achieve them).
Concession in return for the two vesting options? The ability for the team to defer an exceedingly high percentage of the salary for years 6-8.
So, if injury or massive decline happens, our commitment is $240MM…but $115MM of it might be able to be deferred interest free for, say, 30 years.
Big money. Big guarantee. Highest AAV ever. Ability to make $300MM. But the Cardinals have some safeguards and flexibility.
Just spitballing (with almost no thought)…
I just don’t believe Albert will be willing to defer that amount of money for that long of a period if the reports are correct. But here again, who knows what it truth and what is just made up reporter stuff?
Guilty Brian.
I do get it though, but I just believe that this was so badly played by the cardinals (and I know you disagree) that they deserve to take one up the tailpipe. Thats why I say 300 mil for 10 years. I believe that signing Albert will secure many seasons of mediocre teams but its the bed the cardinals have created for themselves and they are just gonna have to lie in it.
You touch on one completely non-understood potential factor, which crdswmn mentioned the other day. Emotion can cause people to take less rational positions and hang onto them. We don’t know if that is happening here, but it surely is possible.
I suspect the Cards will let him walk before they give him $300MM. If he does walk, I wonder if he will be worshipped where he goes like he is in St. Louis? Lots of intangibles besides money to think about. He can’t be Stan Musial the sequel if he leaves.
I didn’t word that very well…
A’Rod had a big squabble between the Union and MLB concerning his incentive clauses…………
AP, by suggesting that his value is 30 million at age 40, suggests that he may catch up and surpass at least A-Rod in this instance……………. incentives already included in his base salary…………
Baseball has had a change of heart about whether a player is entitled to share in the profits of their notoriety/fame, which they contend are services they have already compensated for…………..
AP very likely will want an Opt out in any deal he signs…………the delaying at this point is based solely on the premise that his threat to go elsewhere is real…………… DeWitt is challenging that……………..for money…………… the only way Pujols can take that challenge is to prove its true………………… where do you think this goes? Why do you think both want secrecy? AP in a “60 Minutes segment” to be shown in April..being filmed now……..Lozano? whats it about?
There has been bad blood between AP/Tony and BD……….it doesn’t/didn’t just disappear…….
Cardinals are the foundation of any market Lozano hopes for……….. BD is playing all the appearances……it is not in his best interest to be blamed for AP leaving……he has prepare well.
Look where Tony has placed his bets……………….and Dave………..
I like our chances without AP……….I think it would be fun……… real baseball…….not some attempt at creating statistic for a “Super Star”……….
People will never see that WC but I agree 100%.
The team reminds me of a showcase team where a ton of scouts come to watch one guy and the outcome of the game takes a back seat to watching the prospect put up his numbers. Albert is that stud and I think his desire for Stan Musial type of accolades take priority over everything else. I just feel like the team has the appearance of a team that knows they are just there to fill out the lineup so that Albert can play and be Stan Musial. JMO.
True…but the outcome of a showcase game isn’t really important. The whole point is getting scouts to see individual players.
Obviously the outcome of Cardinals game does have some significance.
I agree Easton….to the fans.
But in my opinion the players may get the impression that Alberts numbers take priority to the team winning most of the time. Its like Alberts numbers are the most important thing to TLR, then winning comes a distant second. The game is played by the team so that nothing disrupts Albert from his numbers goals. Thats just my view from the cheap seats.
Tony emasculates his own team with that competitive posture…………. the teams just fell apart when AP went on his tear after July 30th………………. Albert, having his party the whole time……. then buys into to BD’s rent-a-brown BS………..and then crashes himself……….. I seriously doubt that any other player on that team save Molina gives a flying F whether AP walks…………. and that is the word…..
Shhhhhh WC. Don’t let the cat out of the bag. Thats St. Louis’ best kept secret.
It’s a shame they can’t all get along but we’re talking about professional athletes with egos. No surprise. As for Albert I hope he stays just for the pride of having the best player in baseball but if he leaves I won’t lose sleep.
Westbrooke has overcome allot……….. spring training and some grab-ass will do him some good. Lohse has his new “Eagle Feather” talisman tattooed on his arm…….. his velocity has returned.
The big three are looking for a chance to throw some fastballs and cruise more often……….
the rotation is killer……….. once we get Berkman to bond with Holiday……get the scowling Skip in the dugout with Punto laughing at second……..we could take some serious momentum into the fight.
If we have to deal with AP’s ups and downs in his struggle for self validation………it could all burn down……………… I wish Boston were stupid enough to let us have Gozales for AP….and pay him his ransom/weight in Gold…….which is about right it seems………… just having some fun sounds good.
Some great stuff WC.
Not a tattoo fan as Colby has 5 or 6 and they make me want to punch him in the mouth but the Eagle Feather tat on a native american sounds like the thing to do.
Am excited about Berkman giving Holliday some extra sac to lead this bunch. Also hope Nick keeps his demeanor and maybe rub off on Skip some.
We are stuck with Albert and his HOF run unfortunately. I just hope Berkman and Holliday will take charge and not tip toe around Albert like has been done these last two years.
Then the Cardinals have a chance.
Word………………………………. the tattoo is designed to disguise the “shark bite” scar………….. he isn’t a tattoo type of guy I would guess………. just doesn’t want to dwell on it maybe……….
tattoo’s suck, except the very pretty small ones “you know where” ……..and in that case, I usually encourage…………their suckling………….
I’d say something here but I want to make it to Day #7.
why? are you going to let the kool-aid drinkers bait you into silence with a mere challenge?
No I am just having fun with it.
I wqnt to spring my next TLR rant when no one expects it. 
Crdswmn-knock yourself out.If you feel the need to go on a TLR rant go for it.After reading the crap spewed by the hemlock crowd with their agenda what can your rant hurt? Go for it.At least you are honest about it and not just stirring crap for reactions .
kool aid drinker………..BW has not left any kool aid for anyone. That poor chap is a kool aid addict.
Got a purple mustache.
BD runs SLC Holding company……………a little different that most owner run their teams….it’s a grade one tax shelter……..and more importantly…….carefully structured to reap all the benefits for city ,county, state business concessions………… the reason that he isn’t going to be lured into a mega contract is simple……………the investment protections he favors, will add an extra 20%, at least………………. people in St Louis have nothing better to do………. if he puts a competitive team on the field……….”they will come”……………..
There is a 50/50 chance that AP hits the wall without special treatment…………..or…..if he goes to the right team……………the fact that he doesn’t get special treatment, will be a revelation to him. He deserves that as a man and a player………………………….using Tony as a lure against Albert’s weaknesses, really doesn’t speak well of BD or the organization…………. allowing himself to become the ” non racist” poster boy for the Glen Becks rally doesn’t speak to highly of any of them……………………..
“BD runs SLC Holding company……………a little different that most owner run their teams….it’s a grade one tax shelter”
What the hell are you even talking about?
The legal entity is St. Louis Cardinals, LLC. That is a simple limited liability comany. How is that different or unusual? That is the same setup I used to set up my consulting business. It is the easiest and most common business legal structure.
Amazon.com’s an LLC.
Google’s an LLC.
????
Is it possible the holding company owns (part of) the LLC?
Doesn’t really matter. I dont think how it is set up has any affect on whether Pujols is signed or not.
Yes.
St. Louis Cardinals LP (Limited Partnership) exists but it doesn’t operate anything as far as I can tell. In the business history and rating services I can access (several) there is almost no information about the Limited Partnership. The LLC is the operating company.
The only way the LLC is a tax benefit (let alone a “grade one tax shelter”, whatever that is) is if the books show net losses every year. In that case, the LLC’s income or losses pass-through to the owner’s individual tax returns on a pro-rata basis. Is that (the losses) possible? Sure. Is it likely? No.
“Whittle, the Cardinals’ attorney, said the 2009 sales prices didn’t exceed their 2002 value. A small chunk of ownership isn’t worth that of a majority share, he said. “Just because there are profits doesn’t mean there are distributions,” he said.”
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_dc308b52-aaa4-5f52-aa30-9f05e6040265.html
If you want to snoop around………….they did a radio round table with all the players here, that was very revealing to some one that knows more………… he is running a hedge fund, but thats just the start…………..Davis is a player. He doesn’t just set 20+ million on the shelf in this market for no reason. I’m not going to say more at this time………..
Not sure what that quote is intended to convey in response to me.
So, apparently, a company called SLC Holdings does exist. But I do find it strange that they don’t identify the legal name.
Either way…I don’t see how the structure makes it a tax shelter. It is entirely common. Perhaps the LLC shows losses because of management fees paid to the parent, etc., but that, too, is entirely common.
At some point the positive earnings have to show up…unless siphoned off to the Caymans or something. Somehow I doubt they are doing that. Their business is too public.
And I don’t think they are large enough to bother with a Double Irish.
“unless siphoned off to the Caymans ”
find it strange that they don’t identify the legal name.
have to show up
thats where the stadium bonds are………..sshh…………..
its okay not to know………but when you get curious about non moves……..requiring cash………don’t fret……….its part of the business………find the radio round table……..listen to the explanation as to why 10% can be sold for half its appraised value…… avoiding revenue sharing.
I just pulled a specific business history report on:
SLC HOLDINGS
250 STADIUM PLZ
SAINT LOUIS, MO 63102-1722
The result?
“Confirmed: Out of Business”
My house is a tax shelter
Westie posted a link? I guess that old dog stuff isn’t entirely true
“. . . we’re now in an era in which hitters routinely decline rapidly after age 35. Over the past nine seasons, we’ve only seen two players age 36 or older have a season in which they got 400 plate appearances, hit more than 25 homers, drove in 100 runs, slugged .500 and had an on-base percentage of .400 — Barry Bonds (twice) and Manny Ramirez (in 2008).
So no matter how long this contract winds up being, it’s pretty much a lock that Pujols won’t be as productive in this deal as he was in his last one. And it’s far from out of the question that the back end of the contract won’t be real picturesque.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove10/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=6056760
Notice that the two players who did have big seasons post age 35 are both PED guys. He’s talking about the post-PED ‘era’ where nature takes its course. So the Cards are most likely looking at no more than 5 prime seasons, age 31, 32, 33, 34, 35. Albert will almost certainly not be worth $25-$30M a year after that. Obviously, if he really were to be, say 33, then its three prime years.
We can all love Albert, but BDW has to act based upon reality, and what I pointed out is real. It is worth noting that Albert’s 2010 defensive metrics show a rather steep drop-off from past years. Offensively, his 2010 ten stats are all below his career averages, except HRs, a couple of percent above, and Ks, about 20% above.
“Over the past nine seasons, we’ve only seen two players age 36 or older have a season in which they got 400 plate appearances, hit more than 25 homers, drove in 100 runs, slugged .500 and had an on-base percentage of .400 — Barry Bonds (twice) and Manny Ramirez (in 2008)”
It’s actually pretty rare for any age. In those nine years, only 58 in total.
Only Pujols and Cabrera have put up such seasons at 23 or younger. Pujols actually has put that up every single year! He is 8 of the 50 by himself.
“. . . we’re now in an era in which hitters routinely decline rapidly after age 35. Over the past nine seasons, ”
Also, the era is different? In the nine [full] years before that, there were also just two players who met those thresholds after age 35; Bonds(2001) and E-Mart(2000).
In the nine years before that, none, in the nine years before that none. Granted alot of the issue there is that the minimum season you describe was a pretty elite year before ~1993 and merely very good since…
http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/5/b8/eec/5b8eecd4-b103-11df-9349-00127992bc8b-revisions/4c764d0710836.image.jpg
http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/1/a1/1ff/1a11ff53-6dcb-59e7-85bc-73112044e26f-revisions/4d32156a82dd5.image.jpg
Brian, you could do a psychology experiment. Put these P-D photos side by side and have a poll. Which person is the good guy?
In a (very) small trivia item, my voice recorder is the blue one on the left next to Mo’s water bottle (second photo).
Over on the main site for subscribers, I have been running all the audio interviews from WWU in their entirety. I have posted the rotation and the relievers so far with the infielders, outfielders, team brass and minor leaguers yet to come.
Both are good guys Bling. Thats an easy one. But that scarf reeks of the Gay parade in San Fran……..