The St. Louis Cardinals fired their bullpen coach and promoted his replacement from within.
Beginning with the hiring of Jeff Luhnow six years ago, there were undercurrents of dissent within the St. Louis Cardinals organization over new initiatives led by the baseball outsider.
After Luhnow took over scouting, the draft and the minor league system and general manager Walt Jocketty was fired following the 2007 season, much of the publicly-visible discord seemed to die down, as a more business-as-usual mode appeared in place.
There were still underlying issues, however. For example, late in the 2009 season, major league pitching coach Dave Duncan went public with concerns over minor league preparation of youngsters arriving in St. Louis.
Apparently, while the messages were being delivered, organizational change was not occurring fast enough for some.
Following the 2010 season, long-time bullpen coach Marty Mason, Duncan’s right-hand man, was let go by the Cardinals. The primary reason stated had little or nothing to do with Mason’s performance in his job. Instead, Mason was sent packing because of his ongoing and outspoken criticism of the organization’s player development processes.
Mason had been in his job for 11 years and employed by the organization as a coach for a quarter century. In an unusual stretch following a long period of continuity, the 52-year-old became the second member of Tony La Russa’s staff to be fired in two seasons. Hitting coach Hal McRae departed one year ago to make room for Mark McGwire.
A side benefit presented for Mason’s removal was to open up a job promotion for a deserving minor league coach, an opportunity missed when McGwire was hired from outside the organizational ranks. Mason was replaced by Jupiter-based minor league pitching coordinator Derek Lilliquist.
Lilliquist was the first internal promotion to the Cardinals major league staff since Joe Pettini was moved up from minor league field coordinator to bench coach nine years earlier. That same year, 2002, Lilliquist first joined the organization. At the age of 44, the former major league left-handed pitcher becomes the youngest coach on the staff.
Through the actions surrounding Mason’s dismissal, general manager John Mozeliak made it clear that he is expecting his entire organization to pull together.
Update: On Thursday, December 16, the Chicago Cubs named Mason their 2011 pitching coach for Double-A Tennessee.
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I just can’t figure out how this firing can be a positive for the pitching staff. To a man those pitchers spoke of how much Marty helped with their mechanics. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it and the pitching staff was the one rock solid part of the cardinals that wasn’t broke. I don’t know.
RC — It wasn’t about the pitching staff. It was about each side of the dispute Brian talks about getting their pound of flesh. Luhnow supposed lost day-to-day control of the minor league teams, though he still has the title he had previously. In return, Dunc lost his right-hand man, Marty Mason.
Mo plays middle man. Last year he leaned to Luhnow with all the youngsters on the bench, and this year he’s leaning TLR’s way with some additional veterans.
Mr. DeWitt set up internal tension in the organization by promoting Luhnow back in 2007, over Jocketty’s objections. So now it’s the SABR cats vs. the old-school baseball types. His idea, I think, was improve the team’s capability to produce low-cost, home-grown talent. To date, outside of Colby and Jaime, that effort’s success is still an open question.
I’d guess Mr. Luhnow’s job depends on the answer.
Ideally, one would be able to resolve these differences of opinion without having to resort to booting out talented members of the organization. Playing these sorts of politics may amuse those involved, but it doesn’t appear to make the team on the field any stronger. Stronger leadership would be able to harness superior talent that fell outside of its comfort zone.
Well you would think so Nut. Alas………:)
Wow, This is like…….a really well thought out response Nut. A rarity in these parts.
Nut — Exactly what ‘superior talent’ has the team missed out on? And please, don’t say Brendan Ryan. The league just issues their verdict on his value and it was nil.
On the larger question… I have the visual of a boxing match, two fighters clinched (Luhnow & TLR camp), and the ref (Mo) comes in to break them up. He points to the scorers, subtracts one point from each side, then motions for them to re-engage. Mr. DeWitt is the promoter… a much less funky Don King. The fight ends when he says it does or when one side or the other bites the mat… bloody and broken.
The story that everyone is missing is that the farm system is not producing impact players. Everybody jumps on TLR, points out his quirks, says this is just him getting his way. That’s just half the equation. Where in the realization that the Cards are having to go outside their system for help because the farm is empty of impact talent at the highest levels?
What SS in the organization was ready to take over for Brendan? What RF in the organization is capable of the type of impact a healthy Berkman can bring? What LH reliever in 3A was ready to take the job Tallet now seems likely to fill? What starting pitcher in 3A last year was ready to step in for the injured Lohse/Penny, the spot Westbrook now fills? What 3B-man was in 3A last year to back up Fragile Freese?
The answer to each of these questions tells the real story… and it isn’t just TLR getting his way. It’s about going shopping at the market because the pantry at home is BARE…
Lets be honest HB, TLR’s bad mouthing helped assure that Mo received nothing for Brendan.
Right RC. If TLR hadn’t said anything. We’d have gotten Grienke for Brendan.
Come on HB, I’ve got 10 players on my team that could give up less than 7 runs a game in A ball. But its just par for the course. TLR seems to have a knack for saying things in the media that just throws players under the bus.
RC — I’ll keep an eye out for those 10 Warriors on draft day.
Let me put it this way. If Ron Washington had said uncomplimentary things about Cliff Lee, how much do you think that would have affected Lee’s value in the market? Any?
The problem with Brendan is that he didn’t perform. He may be a wonderful guy. Tons of fun, super person. But he didn’t get it done in between the lines. That determined his value and not all this other junk TLR-detrators like to wallow in. Brendan is soon going to be a 29 year-old man who’s spent parts of 4 seasons in MLB and has never held a starting job for an entire season. He had ONE good year, followed by a horrible year. That’s being honest.
I’ve got news for Grienke better steer clear of TLR with that anxiety disorder. He may commit suicide in St. Louis.
That’s being short sighted my friend.
And Brendan would be a better player had he spent those last 4 years somewhere else. It was never gonna be a successful marriage.
RC — He’s going to get a chance to test your proposition. We shall see.
I think it will be fun for us to wager a little bit on what we think Brendan will achieve this year. It will cause us to keep up with it a little closer. We need a prediction post before the season starts.
I predict he will hit between .260 and .280 and make less than 10 errors. I’m not a SABR person so I can’t go any further than that.
Let’s be honest HB, you would never believe any of it no matter what evidence was presented to you. Unless TLR confessed to it all.
I would never pick you to be on a jury. 
Neither did the lawyers a couple weeks ago when I went for jury duty at county court.
I rest my case.
Overruled! HAHA!
Too late for that.
And in my opinion, the pantry is bare because the guy running the draft, scouting and the farm system (until recently) is a SABR-centric guy who had ZERO baseball experience before the Cards hired him as a consultant in 2003. Well, he did have some FANTASY baseball experience, so maybe that’s not fair.
Why is everyone dumping the whole bucket on TLR, here, FanGraphs, etc… because the SABR community is deflecting blame from the real culprit… Mr. Luhnow, one of their own.
I can’t argue with you about the farm system HB, but look what TLR has one with the good ones he has gotten. You think everything is peachy between TLR and Colby? Jaime Garcia is protected by the pitchers and Dunc, it is the position players that have to deal with TLR and there is every indication that Anderson, Greene and to some extent Descalso are suffering as well. See Theriot and Laird as examples.
They all have to deal with TLR, crdswmn. He is the boss of them all.
Colby is not in a good place… the Tale Of Two Tonys thing I joked about the other night. One is his dad and one is the representative of the man who pays his salary and to a large degree controls his professional life for the next few years. He wants to please them both, but it’s a hard spot, from what I’ve been observing.
It was the best of times… it was the worst of times.
Yes HB you know exactly what the truth is. Why do I suggest otherwise?
Colby doesn’t do anything at this point in his life to please me, nor should he. I really get a kick out of all the his dad stuff. I am so irrelevant to Colby’s situation. We don’t talk about the Cardinals or TLR or anything to do with Mo, Luhnow. None of it. I see him every day and we never once have a conversation about the cardinals. His mother is a huge cardinals fan so she will pull some stuff out of his finance and thats how I hear about it. I won’t listen to a word from him about it so he knows better than to talk to me about it.
Now if he wants an opinion on hitting I will gladly give my opinion. But thats as far as it goes as far as cardinal baseball conversations go. So in other words all of that BS you read about is probably just that…BS. Now we talked about the Phillies today and watched the Cliff Lee MLB show today and talked about some other teams trades this winter. But that is it HB.
I’ll also agree with you that Luhnow’s drafting of players leaves a lot to be desired. The Cardinals philosophy is one where you draft players that are assured of making to AAA or making it as borderline ML players but none are likely to be stars. To get a big payoff with a prospect you have to go for the high upside player, not the safe mediocre player.
Yes, agreed. I don’t recall anyone anywhere ever claiming otherwise, be it here or on any of the SABR-oriented sites.
In this case specifically, the team got rid of Marty Mason because they apparently couldn’t keep him in line, this despite everyone being happy with his work performance. They weakened the team because they can’t get along.
Sure, they also got rid of Brendan Ryan for nothing. Sure, he struggled at the plate, but he was great defensively (a necessity for a ground ball pitching staff) and is a better option than their current backup infielders without question. They weakened the team because they can’t get along.
I’m not pointing fingers at the TLR or the Luhnow camp specifically. I’m annoyed at the organization on the whole, which is shedding talent unnecessarily for reasons entirely unrelated to performance.
I agree that it not all one-sided. The problem I have is that it is presented that way here… all TLR’s fault all the time…
guilty as charged.
RC — I’d be more inclined to accept what you’re saying if I felt you were coming to the table with clean hands, just a disinterested observer and commenter on things baseball… But I don’t believe that for a minute. I was born at night… but not last night
No you wouldn’t HB.
Anybody who criticizes TLR and Mo is not a disinterested observer. 
crdswmn — You will find out some day, that I also criticize TLR and Mozeliak.
Well if that happens I will have a party to celebrate your salvation.
Here again, I’m not trying to turn you to the dark side HB. If I told you everything I know about many different situations that are cardinal related you wouldn’t believe any of it. Its just the way the cardinal world works HB.
It won’t work on me RC. I bought some tinfoil and made a hat. I’m fully protected!
Been in the world long enough to know that there is always more than one side to every story. In fact, I subscribe to the Don Henley school, when he sang:
There’s your side
And my side
And the cold hard truth
That tinfoil protects you from outside rational thought HB and keeps all things cardinal rose colored inside .
But I will say this I don’t think it is beneficial for we as fans to know all the bad things that our hero’s do or say. Better to not believe anything you hear or read, and consider all negative talk as being cheap shots by uninformed fanatics. I actually do agree with this line of thinking HB.
RC — To protect against that I poked some holes in it with a fork.
Ha Ha….HB. You’re a good dude.
Probably should have taken it off first HB.
Ok so I should stop telling the truth, is that it RC?
No Crdswmn, but the truth around here isn’t all that popular.
Probably safer to follow the sheep.
Wool makes me itch and I don’t like Koolaid.
But I can see that I am giving BW heart palpitations so I guess it wouldn’t hurt to dial it back a bit. 
You’ve read this before, I know cause i’ve written it. In a room full of misguided and confused individuals, the person telling the truth appears to be the dirty rotten scoundrel.
But I don’t believe Jumbo is a dirty rotten scoundrel at all.
Neither is HB.
Dang it bb! Now you tell me!
I pretty much like all your scoundrels here. Birds of a feather, you know…
Well I promise, for the sake of BW’s heart rhythm, to no longer refer to TLR as LaGenius or the Demon Spawn.
We can’t talk about everything here………..but consider the possibility that Tony was actually helping Mo turn over Brendan. He helped define the parameters of the dismissal with his criticisms. Could be that Tony can’t live without AP, …….. and Mo doesn’t want to be the one catching all the s–t if he doesn’t buy into BD program. They likely were working together on this one………
MMason is a complicated topic………. he was the lost soldier in the campaign for on field autonomy.
Dave was in a delicate position still from the Chris D. fiasco…………he was as it is now proven, to be the most valuable chip on the table…………. Marty got the point position.
DD is by definition a virtuoso tactician. There are mechanical elements to the structural symmetry necessary to carry out his schemes. If you can’t hit his locations with a minimum of variables in your delivery………..you will bleed to death on that hill…………….. the good one benefit , the bad ones don’t last long………………….
The entry to this level participation is highly defined and ritualized…………. its actual articulation and thus realization, are very depended on Dave’s participation and personality being present.
It goes without saying that this is problematic for the minor league coaches, who are used to contesting AB’s with simple deception and situational common sense. With Luhnow agitating the dialog, thing got distorted some what……………….. The fact that Tony and Dave weren’t happy with what was coming up, was just as big an issue as the actual technical complaints which became the cover for criticizing BD’s lack of talent support. Mason became the mouth piece for those complaints……………
BD/Mo made him a sacrifice, more as an example of inappropriate tactics in the ongoing battle, as anything else……………………….. an obvious demotion to triple A would have solved any problems and likely enhanced the strengths over the weaknesses that he was criticizing. But that of course wasn’t the point. They stopped the Luhnow agitation and took a pound for their law and order trophy case. Its not over…………. there are a number of scenarios I see that have Tony leaving the team mid season………….they are unlikely………. but Tony has readied his armor.
From your lips to God’s ear.
Your welcome God.
Pound of flesh………………..
This kind of politics goes on everywhere. It is unfortunate, but the human race is flawed. I get heated up about the Cardinals’ political shanigans I guess because I am so passionate about the team. I want the Cardinals to be the best and this kind of stuff just brings the whole organization down. Places like this are a good place to vent. I am going to enjoy this series.
Marty isn’t gone because of politics or because of grousing about Luhnow or anything else. Tony wanted him gone for some reason so he’s gone. Simple as that.
When I say Tony wanted him gone, I mean Tony and/or Albert wanted him gone. Same with Brendan and Luddy.
The articile (I want to be odd too) linked by RC in the other thread was in the same vane as the SI article linked earlier by Brian. It seems like what is going on with the Cards this winter has become pretty obvious to those outside the org. The ridiculousness of the Berkman scenario and the short sightedness of the Brendan dump are compelling it seems. Add in the perplexity of a team with a ground ball staff purposly going forward with a utility infielder at short and a utility outfielder at second, and no back up for a third baseman who looked good for a couple months in the bigs but can’t stay healthy, and just had both ankles operated on, again. If things don’t go well, it will get embarrasing. It could get ugly too.
I won’t argue with the rationale of Tony wanting somebody gone and their gone, but I hadn’t heard anything about Tony having issues with Marty. Hmmmm.
I did not mean to say I know that for a fact. I’m saying it doesn’t make any sense to fire Dave’s long time right hand man, relied upon by the staff, because he grumps about some newfangled ideas or whatever. He had been grumping for a couple years. So, just as trading Luddy made no sense, and Brendan either, and Berkman, and Theriot, and Skip, etc, etc, the real reason for Marty getting wacked seems rather plain.
Nice BB…………. you think I’m making that stuff up………………….
The KMOX interview with Lance is good…….he a professional…………..BD-3 sure isn’t going to be playing poker for a living.
I have to admit to a moment of weakness, Westy. But it has now reached critical mass, so I have dug my tinfoil hat out of the recycling. My dog shares my thoughts so I have made one for him as well.
It will be nice seeing Luddy roll into town with the Pads on opening day. We will see how our new right fielder stacks up.
Well I think there is no question that defensively there is no comparison., But offensively…..there could be a competition.
Just a quick question………………..do any of you have any idea what the technical complaints were concerning unprepared minor league call ups? Please speak up……….. I may be able to adjust my observation accordingly.
That would be some of the double secret Cardinals stuff RC knows about but won’t mention because he’s such a tight lipped circumspect kind of guy.
Classified Bling.
I invited an ex sports journalist/attorney to check out the group……………… Nice timing by me. With everyone drunk it seems, and Viva El Birdos one liners the rage, perhaps God is speaking here. Merry Christmas to all………………and to all a good night.
Westy — Here’s some reading on the technical complaints between the Dunc/Mason camp and the Luhnow camp.
Disagreement seems to center on a guy named Brent Strom, a Luhnow guy who’s an acolyte of something called ‘natural mechanics’ or ‘momentum pitching’. When you consider that Mason was the ‘mechanics guy’ with the Cards, it appears his ideas and those being taught in the minor leagues by Strom/Dyar Miller were at odds… and a major source of friction.
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/article_fa4a6c52-b158-5403-a231-dbddbecb8af8.html
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/4/7/824829/q-and-a-with-jeff-luhnow
http://www.pitching.com/articles/view/will-momentum-pitching-soon-find-its-way-into-major-league-baseball
Thanks for the research Tex……………………. Its much better than the stuff I had to make up to sound like an authority………………………… so there’s your answer for those that are interested.
I found this somewhere.
One of the least understood concepts/terms used here is “pitch to contact”. One of Dave’s greatest teaching assets is essentially a form of therapy. One of the greatest “little league” illusions that may still permeates a pitchers “Psyche” is the idea of contact avoidance. The “heater” and breaking pitch causing a swing and a miss, dominate. A base hit becomes a personal affront, the HR being a massive blow to the ego. Strikeout, the supreme validation.
Our rotation doesn’t go up there looking for contact. They prepare to create an out by sequencing pitches to a hitters “statistical vulnerabilities”. Dave’s book is about that very issue. He journals a players tendencies.
Good players usually know their “holes” and will look for pitches there in certain counts. Dave’s trick is to affirm that expectation, and at the same time making the expected pitch a little worse than manageable. It is why our defensive adjustments are so much better than the competition. It is why Dave stress mechanics. It is the lookalike motion that disguises a pitches eventual location, without stifling the swing impulse. Smart guy.
Bottom line. Carp and Waino are being forced to throw to many breaking pitches of late, seemingly avoiding some of this reasoning. No run support makes life difficult. Hazardous to your health too. Scoring more runs will allow everyone to relax a little. I’m sure Tony figures Theriot’s range will increase, just as Brendan’s range will likely decrease in another program do to loosing the advantages of this system.
When a Pitcher is in Dave’s groove, they often end up running there own pre-game meeting. And that is the point. Excepting the premise of contact, with the view of using it to your advantage reduces anxiety and most importantly, overthrowing to compensate for its presents.
Interesting WC… No doubt, Dunc is the best in the business and is paid accordingly. Wonder who brought him to StL? Must have been that TLR guy… not a bad move, that one….
Thanks for confirming what most of us already knew.
RIP Bob Feller
[...] he is not the headline of either my number 19 or 20 stories of the year for the St. Louis Cardinals, Jeff Luhnow is a common thread between the [...]