The St. Louis Cardinals look to upgrade at shortstop over second base for 2011.
The St. Louis Cardinals struggled up the middle in 2010 offensively at both shortstop and second base and were not strong defensively at the latter position. Many observers feel this should be a target area for improvement in 2011.
The question is the best way to do it.
If indications from the Cardinals manager come to pass, shortstop Brendan Ryan may be replaced while second baseman Skip Schumaker remains.
To date, Ryan has been a one-dimensional defensive player while Schumaker is a former outfielder who can play all three positions there. Despite a ground ball-oriented pitching staff, the Cardinals may be preparing to forfeit Ryan’s Gold Glove-quality defense while keeping Skip’s sub-optimal glove at second. The idea seems to be that the loss of Ryan can be more than compensated by acquiring a better-hitting shortstop and the hope of a bounceback season from Schumaker with the bat.
On the ITD Morning After radio show on Wednesday, St. Louis manager Tony La Russa said the following.
“…I think Skip has done an amazing job. You know we won 92 games with him at second base his first time out there and this year you know he was more comfortable making routine plays, and he’s still getting used to the position…”
Regarding Ryan, the manager’s comments were far more pointed.
“…when he struggled at the plate like Skip did early… you know Skip, he refused to, he bent a little bit you know, but he didn’t break, and I think it broke Brendan quite a few times. You know he just let those at bats drive him nuts and he’d take it out defensively so again, if there’s somebody better, then Brendan’s job is at risk.”
In his weekly Q&A session on Wednesday, the Post-Dispatch’s Joe Strauss suggested another factor is stacking up against Ryan – his impending arbitration salary may be a mismatch with his perceived value. Oddly, Schumaker was in a comparable place last winter, but secured a two-year commitment from the Cardinals. As such, Skip is under contract for $2.7 million next season after being paid $2 million in 2010.
Strauss also suggested there would be no reason for the Cardinals to keep Ryan as a reserve if another shortstop is acquired (and he wasn’t traded away as part of the deal).
One possible implication of Strauss’ arbitration value comment is that Ryan could be a non-tender candidate if not traded. I just don’t get it. It is very difficult for me to come up with an explanation for how Ryan could be worth less money to the team than what they gave Schumaker.
If you had the assignment to replace one of the two starting middle infielders, what would you do?
- Would you make Schumaker a utility infielder/outfielder, acquire a second baseman and keep Ryan at short?
or
- Would you deal Ryan as part of a package for a shortstop with a bigger bat and keep Skip at second?
It seems pretty clear what La Russa wants.
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Sounds like the team is unwillingly to accept the idea of sunk costs with Schu. Maybe Dewiitt is still upset about eating Kennedy’s money and doesn’t want to do that again. Not sure what is at play here.
This shouldn’t even be a close call (in Ryan’s favor). The only thing could at issue could be available substitutes might be more easily attained at SS, but I doubt that.
The idea that Ryan would get non-tendered seems silly. He wont make more than a little over $1 million in arby.
Pathetic.
If this organization keeps Skip as a starter and jettisons Ryan, maybe this organization is as dysfunctional as some think.
Just to be clear, Strauss did not specifically say “non-tendered,” but there are only two possible dispositions, trade or non-tender. We have seen and heard before, including most recently with Ludwick, the line of thinking that leads to dumping a player whose perceived value is less than his projected salary via arbitration. Yet as noted, Ryan’s salary would be so small in the greater scheme of a $100 million payroll, that even mentioning it as a negative in terms of keeping him seems a real stretch.
I completely agree. Even if we do acquire a starter at short (and Ryan does not go the other way as part of the deal), for a million bucks Ryan can AT LEAST backfill the middle infield defense.
Back in late July, it was rumored the Cards were offering Brendan Ryan to Houston in a deal for Roy Oswalt. More reliably, it is known the Cards signed Cesar Izturis and traded for $6MM mental patient Khalil Greene in lieu of going with Ryan at SS in 2008/09.
Ryan seems popular with Cards fans. And he seems a good bet to rebound offensively in 2011.
Two more factors to consider……1. SSes are valuable, so maybe Ryan might be useful for a trade.
2. It can be risky to hope for a player to rebound. If Ryan returns in 2011 and hits 580 OPS again, then Mo will look like an idiot. Every off-season, a team wants to make some adjustments, so as to market a fresh squad for the new season. A lot of guys are due to be back in 2011 (Holliday, Pujols, Carp, etc.). Opportunities for making changes may be limited to a few places.
If Skip returns at 2B, this may make pursuing Orlando Hudson less likely.
In any event, it has to be tough figuring this stuff out. It was fun to win the chase for Holliday last winter, since this only cost DeWitt’s pocketbook, but there may be less easy choices this winter.
More comical moves if this takes place, but I don’t think anyone with any sense would have thought Tony would want it any other way.
I’d rather upgrade at second (sign Orlando Hudson) and keep Brendan Ryan at short but I assume that depends on the available players.
TLR even mentioned in his interview with John Marecek yesterday that finding a right field bat would allow Jon Jay and Allen Craig more time to develop. That wouldn’t be bad either but I assume a better bat than the Jay/Craig combo may be too expensive (in money and/or players) for the Cardinals.
Easton wrote, “If this organization keeps Skip as a starter and jettisons Ryan, maybe this organization is as dysfunctional as some think.”
Here comes a shot across the bow by Jumbo shrimp Easton.
It does not surprise me TLR mentions RF and giving more development time to Jay and Craig. TLR probably wants their platoon as a fallback option. Neither is a strong RF defensively.
What I think will happen: the Cards will add a vet, $1MM RF in about January. This man will swing left, to help balance the lineup and reduce pressure on Rasmus. I am not going identify nominees, because there will be whines.
If the Cards do this, Craig can collect some at bats in a RF platoon and Jay can backup Rasmus and fill-in when there are injuries.
Getting rid of Brendan would be a mistake. But if MO intends to kiss TLR’s ass as usual I am sure it will happen. More of the same from the FO.
If Brendan does go, I hope a team will pick him up who appreciates his stellar defense and he will blossom offensively. Brendan deserves better than TLR, but such a loss to the Cardinals.
If the Cards were to woo and land Miguel Tejada, he could be starting SS. Then when Freese gets injured, Tejada could move to 3B and Ryan take over at SS again.
Pretty simple choice really. Does the team want to upgrade the offense or the defense more? What is the greater weakness, Skip’s defense or Ryan’s limp bat? If you want better defense, you keep Ryan and move Skip. If you want better offense, then you keep Skip and move Ryan. I think we can see which way the wind is blowing.
If rumors are true and Drew is a trade target, we get a better bat at SS who also has defensive skills, so we’re not losing that much defensively, while gaining on offense.
Outside of performance, there are other factors in play. Skip, by all accounts, is a consumate team guy, conscientious, hard-working, willing to take coaching and ready to do whatever is asked of him. Ryan, on the other hand, seems irresponsible, was not (according to the FSM guys) open to coaching about his approach at the plate and is terminally late to meetings.
Strauss said Skip retains the support of both the front office and the field staff, so this isn’t a case where it’s all on TLR. Mozeliak is TLR’s boss, and has been increasingly assertive of that authority.
Skip seems to have zero support here and I find that strange. Admittedly, he has limitations, but he also has strengths. The same is true of Brendan. There are just 3 players on this team that have hit .300+ in two of the last three seasons. Two of them make $16M/year or more… and the other one is Skip.
Skip is SO terrible defensively that he should not be considered an option regardless. If we don’t want to trade to fill the position or spend some cash, then the job needs to be Descalso’s.
Skip does have value. He is a good ballplayer. As a utility player (and not guaranteed two years…sigh), he has plenty of value. He simply is not a second baseman – and Tony’s continued insistence otherwise if making me lose respect for his ability to evaluate on-field talent.
And I mean that genuinely and with all due respect.
If Skip is not replaced, somhow (even if just by Descalso), regardless of the other moves made, I will be deeply disappointed (and disturbed).
HB, if Skip hits .300, wouldn’t he do it no matter where he plays defensively?
Skip has little support here for a good reason—he sucks. I like the guy, but he just hasn’t measured up at 2B and never will. Skip is one of TLR’s pets to rescue and he puts that above the welfare of the team. I’m tired of it and so are a lot of other people.
crdswmn: Skip was an extra OF and could have stayed in this role. Instead, he took on the unusally difficult job of trying to learn middle infield in the majors, as once did Davey Lopes.
Skip tried to serve the team by moving to the infield. The Cards probably appreciate him for doing so.
HB: interesting TLR would consider trading for JD’s brother. His lefty swing would be helpful and give us more options as regards adding a RF.
Jumbo–Great, put him back as an extra OF, just keep him away from 2B. Skip wants to play, so moving to 2B was no big sacrifice for him. I like Skip, but don’t try to sell him as a martyr to me.
This is nothing more than TLR’s machinations. I know how lawyers think, so I am not fooled.
TLR is willing to sacrifice one of the best defensive SS’s in the league, because he likes Skip better. How does that serve the team?
skip deserves the chris duncan treatment, trade him away from tony, who is being blindly loyal. skip is a disaster at 2B, and it takes denial from tony, not to admit it.
if this is Mo and tony both endorsing skip as the 2011 2B, they are lost in the woods and can’t see their way out, for all the trees. they will have simply gotten in too deep and gotten lost.
“Jumbo–Great, put him back as an extra OF, just keep him away from 2B. Skip wants to play, so moving to 2B was no big sacrifice for him. I like Skip, but don’t try to sell him as a martyr to me.”
Exactly. He was paid excessively for it, too. I don’t think he’d feel too badly making $2.7MM this year on the bench when he would have been a non-tender candidate.
Sigh.
Skip: Good guy. Nice utility player. Probably a swell neighbor. But he’s a terrible second baseman and his contract was a mistake.
If Mo gives in to TLR, then I am finished with him as a GM. I could do much better and I would do it for less money. Hey BD, are you listening? I would tell TLR that I give him the team to manage and he manages it. And oh, he keeps his big mouth shut about it.
And I would punctuate it with a third finger salute.
Come on cardswmn tell us how you really feel about TLR? Don`t sugarcoat it.
The love for Brendan Ryan is amazing.The guy is a above average to average ballplayer.He makes some great plays and then he wanders off into lala land with a halfass throw or flails away like a teeball player.Could it be that the Cards are tired of dealing with his lack of concentration.
As for Schumaker at 2B………………i hope Descalso is kept on the big league roster as Schu`s caddy.
If Cards deal Ryan and Boggs for Stephen Drew i can live with that.
how much of skip’s “perceived value” to the org, is tied to the lack of an alternate to leadoff in 2011?
even though it would take a rebound from him at the plate.
Concerning contract mistakes-Easton thinks Schumakers is terrible.Most think Lohse has a bad contract.(in hindsight it looks that way now………….lets see if Lohse can rebound to just average).
Cards also have some team favorable contracts;
Yadi Molina-good price on the best defensive catcher in the NL and maybe baseball,he hits okay also.
Adam Wainwright-cheap price for the production
Albert Pujols-cheap price for the best in baseball
Ryan Franklin-cheap money for reliable closer
“Concerning contract mistakes-Easton thinks Schumakers is terrible”
Correction:
Easton think’s Schumaker is terrible (at second base). He thinks his contract was an unnecessary mistake.
If this organization jettisons Ryan in a trade and gets better offense with average defense.why not?As for Schumaker i see nothing written in stone that he will be the starting 2B next year.There is still a whole offseason to change things.
I think the organization sees Schumaker as a versatile team player who doesn`t go spaced out banjo bat on them.
“If this organization jettisons Ryan in a trade and gets better offense with average defense.why not?”
I don’t see your point. I thought my point was clear but I guess not.
If we get rid of Ryan and keep Skip as a starter I will be upset. Skip IS a versatile team player. I never suggested otherwise. In fact, I have said nearly exactly that. My problem is with him at second base – where he is terrible. I am not sure I can say that more clearly.
If we were to trade Ryan early in the off-season, obviously I would wait to see how the rest of the winter played out first before I passed judgment on the entirety off-season.
Saying I wouldn’t want Molina starting at third base doesn’t mean I hate Molina.
I don`t think the FO gives a rats ass if you or me or anybody are upset about who management chooses over who.The comments by TLR lead me to think a deal could be in the works (as been rumored).
Obviously Skip `s versatility and better offense is seen as a better asset than Ryans defense and concentration issues.
As of right now Schumaker is the starting 2B and the best defensive reserve OF.
Interesting item from MLBtraderumors; Rivals teams think WhiteSox listening to offers for Gordon Beckham 2B. Cards are one of many teams listed who might be inbterested.
I didn’t say they cared, Bw. I simply shared my thoughts on the situation.
I would still hope that they make the decision, when it comes down to it, that is obvious to apparently everyone but them.
I can only hope their public support of Skip the 2nd baseman is somehow a negotiating ploy (but I can’t see how any agent or team would buy that).
BW wrote, “As for Schumaker i see nothing written in stone that he will be the starting 2B next year.There is still a whole offseason to change things.”
If Skip is on the roster big money says he will be starting somewhere.
Easton wrote, “I can only hope their public support of Skip the 2nd baseman is somehow a negotiating ploy (but I can’t see how any agent or team would buy that).”
A negotiating ploy?
It does seem as though TLR has officially thrown Brendan under the bus with his comments yesterday…….I believe this is good for Brendan. I like his chances to bounce back offensively in a different situation. I say again, surround TLr with players he wants to manage. This is a start. There are probably at least a few more who need to be excommunicated off the roster in order to get TLR into a warm and fuzzy spot.
The give TLR the players he wants strategy sounds good and makes sense but breaks down without an unlimited budget since he only wants the more expensive veterans.
Brian — Agree that batting average is not position dependant. However, Skip’s bat slots better as a middle infielder than a corner outfielder. Corner IF and OF are typically slugging spots and Skip isn’t a slugger. Nor does he possess the speed to be a good CF. As long as he can hold his own at 2B, and he has, it makes little sense to bench or make a utility player out of one of the team’s most consistent hitters for average.
Skip moved to the IF in 2009 after they ditched Kennedy, a clubhouse cancer. It also opened space in the OF for other players like Ludwick, Jay, Colby, Craig, et. al. That’s not martyrdom, but it is being a good teammate.
I think it’s fair to say Skip is below average at 2B. I think it’s also fair to say that he’s only played the position for two years and that he assumed the role to fill a team need rather than as a personal preference. It’s fair to note that Ryan made 17 errors last year while Skip only made 16, and it’s fair to say that Skip is a much more accomplished hitter than Brendan has shown thus far.
As for personal tics, I prefer to see a guy fiddling with his batting gloves to one who licks his shoulder compulsively, which is just plain gross.
Saying that Skip ‘sucks’ that he’s one of ‘TLR’s pets’ or that he’s ‘terrible at 2B’ are all valid opinions, but such statements contain more vitriol and personal vituperation than analysis. And frankly, I think that kind of tactic weakens one’s argument rather than strengthening it.
Good point CC, let me rephrase. Mo should get rid of the players TLR doesn’t want. That should be easy.
I truly believe that TLR would love a stable full of aged vets, an equal lot of LH’s and RH’s so that he could work his magic with mixing and matching and out managing the opposition. He is at his best in these situations. All I’m saying is give him what he works best with.
My dislike of TLR is no secret BW
Brendan will go to another team and shine and then the haters will bemoan the stupidity of the FO for letting him go. You can take that to the bank.
HB, I can give you the Skip sucks at 2B analysis but once I am through impressing everyone with my incredible knowledge of baseball, the result will still be that Skip sucks at 2B.
HBT wrote, “Skip moved to the IF in 2009 after they ditched Kennedy, a clubhouse cancer.”
A clubhouse cancer? Thats a little harsh I would guess. It does seem if you ever get into an argument with TLR that is the label that finds you……cancer. Thats a shame.
I agree RC. And ‘clubhouse cancer” is a little bit of vitriol and personal vituperation wouldn’t you say?
ECW-give us your guesses on who the others who might not be on the good side right now?
Bryan Anderson?
Tyler Greene?
RCW regarding comment 31? Your guesses?
Adam Kennedy was not a cancer. He was mediocre, so he had to share his position with Miles.
To his credit, Kennedy went back to AAA and worked his way back into MLB. He’s a pro. I like to see that.
RC & crdswm — When you pay a guy $4M to go away, I think it’s safe to assume that person was a disruptive presence on the team. Maybe ‘clubhouse cancer’ was a bit strong.
My understanding of the Kennedy affair was that he was miffed that he had to compete for playing time. Given that he’s not been able to stick with any team (Oakland or Washington) since leaving, maybe the assessment about him competing for playing time, just like other players, might have been the right call.
Being cut by Washington, as he just was, isn’t exactly a strong point on one’s resume.
BW, You don’t have to have a PHD in people skills to know if TLR doesn’t like you. He feels the need to take swipes at you via the media if he’s not high on you and will defend you when everyone in the world see that you are wrong when he likes you. Easy money.
CRDSWMN-i bet you are a Whitey Herzog lover ,And you don`t think most managers have favorites/ Hell Whitey had Tom Lawless and Darrell Porter (highly overrated in every department).
It is not safe to assume anything when dealing with TLR. Was Scott Rolen a clubhouse cancer? TLR has terrific managing skills which are only exceeded by his meglomania and his inflexibility.
Jumbo — A mediocre player is platooned. A disruptive mediocre player is released with pay when he puts his own personal interests/desires above those of the team.
I had some issues with Whitey, but I liked him for the most part. Whitey may have had favorites but he didn’t use the media to promote them and villify those he didn’t like as TLR does. Nor did Whitey let his loyalties overshadow what was best for the team, as TLR does.
Rolen had a history of problems with managers. Do a Google search into his relationship with Larry Bowa in Philly. That’s why he was available in trade and how we were able to acquire him.
crdswmn — Does ‘not safe to assume’ encompass claims of megalomania and inflexibility?
Bowa is no longer a manager because you can’t keep having those confrontations with the players. See Freddie Garcia.
That TLR is a megalomaniac and inflexible is not an assumption. So the answer is no.
Last i heard TLR has not quit in thwe middle of a season or give up on his team in May like The White turd admits in his book about 1986.Only a fool would think Whitey didn`t have a ego.The people that think hitey walked on water and have such a dislike for TLR are always funny.All these guys are human and have their issues.The appeal of the “good ole Boy” Whitey and the hatred towards TLR because of who he is and his methods aren`t the Beer drinking spitting on the floor cornpone BS of Whitey says a lot about people.
RC — I think Bowa is no longer a manager because his teams didn’t win.
crdswmn — That sounds very megalomanical and inflexible to me…
Nope, just observant.
I wonder if something is going on here? Like everyone says…………………………..radio by phone interview? Improvisational? Off the cuff? What is that Tony up to? If……….Tony has his own agenda…………what is it?…………………..If he is pushing an Organizational position……..Rasmus is already gone………….two player deal……..or possible a three team thing happening. If it doesn’t cost any money………be afraid………or celebrate………
Tony’s agenda is the same as it has always been—to get what he wants whatever the cost.
I agree with the crowd in saying that it should come as no surprise that TLR is publically backing his boy Skip over Ryan, who he barely tolerates. Fortunately, TLR isn’t the GM.
Given that this superb pitching staff and its pitching coach rely upon the ground ball, having good defensive middle infielders is more or less a requirement for successful results. Getting rid of one of the top defensive shortstops in the league in favor of one of the worst defensive second basemen is not a good choice for the team as constructed, so I don’t particularly agree with the assertion that TLR should run wild with his own roster choices.
Crd……..I was playing a round with a couple members of the Cardinal rotation. Both really believed in Kennedy and his abilities as a player. He got caught up in a very similar situation to this one, BD/Tony wars………….. Bd was just getting his feet wet as a GM. Bush was still in the white house and the money was flowing freely……..he gambled…….we all lost.
Well said Nut…………. what is he up to?
Bowa was a nutcase when a player and abrasive as a manager. He’s a lot like Piniella, fiery.
Rolen got misdiagnosed by the medical geniuses that serve the Cardinals. He got fixed by the Reds doctor and guess what, now he’s a Red and 8 time Gold Glover. A real class act. It was classy of DeWitt to trade Scott, when TLR and he found the Clubhouse was too small.
The Cards released Kennedy to make room for Rasmus. Yes, Kennedy whined a bit, but he has manned up and earned Ml roster slots the past two years. Maybe he needed to be released to get remotivated.
You have more confidence in the FO than I have Nut. I will believe Mo is not TLR’s lapdog if he, (1) keeps Colby; (2) keeps Brendan; and (3) gets Skip the hell away from 2B.
Westie, I hope you are not supplying weed to…………………our boys in uniform…………maybe you are just teaching them ………………. classical guitar……………Guitar is very…………….popular now in Clubhouses…………………….
Glad you stopped by Westie, you’re the Bret Farve of TCNB. I too am wondering what is going on. Its out of character for Tony to publicly kick a player to the curb. And especially a fan favorite like Brendan, one of the more entertaining players to watch. I think it has become obvious that the reason it took so long to finalize Tony’s new deal was his insistance that Mo have his testes surgically removed. They will probably turn up on ebay.
Crdswmn, I still see absolutely no reason for the team to trade Colby, despite the wishes of some of our friends. Unless Skip is removed from the team, however, it is La Russa’s responsibility to determine who to use where. Mozeliak can’t force La Russa to use Skip as a reserve outfielder.
Westie, I assume that TLR simply doesn’t see Ryan as being worth the hassle. Brendan Ryan is probably a miserable person to try to manage as he clearly has yet to grow up. I can sympathize with TLR. As a manager in an entirely different field than baseball, I have stuck by a guy who was hard working, reliable, and trustworthy over someone with more ability because the latter caused me more headaches than he was worth.
La Russa is a very organized, methodical guy. He’ll have plans in place with expectations for the players in those plans. You can plan around a steady guy like Skip because you know what you’re going to get. You never know when Brendan will fall asleep or lose his cool. He’ll making planning difficult. It makes sense.
Assuming the choice to replace Ryan is Drew, there is a large financial component involved. Drew will make almost $4 million more than Ryan next year and possibly the same difference in 2012. Will you get more production for this money? Last year Drew’s WAR was off the charts (5.1) but in 2009 Ryan’s WAR was actually higher than Drew’s.
I’m not worried about the 2011 salary that much but in 2012 every dollar will be critical if we are to sign Pujols. On the other hand, if Drew can repeat 5+ WAR, that could come in handy if Pujols isnt re-signed.
But Mo can get us a much better 2bagger like Orlando Hudson and force TLR’s hand.
Reliable and steady doesn’t win ballgames without talent. Skip does not have the latter at 2B. There have been reports that Brendan’s reliability has improved and I believe his offense will improve as well. This isn’t about Brendan’s abilities or demeanor. It’s about TLR preferring Skip and being determined to get what he wants at both Brendan’s and the team’s expense.
Good point about the manageability factor, Nut, and about the likely increased cost of a replacement, CC.
If the payroll savings in 2011 reason for trading Luddy is believed, then what is the chance of replacing the cheap Brendan with an expensive vet? Of replacing the cheap Colby with an expensive vet? And it is not just the 2011 cost that must be considered. What would the replacement of those guys do to the payroll in 2012, 2013? In the end, money may do the talking.
Nut wrote, “Crdswmn, I still see absolutely no reason for the team to trade Colby, despite the wishes of some of our friends. ”
Lets hope Mo is smart enough to do whats best for the Cardinals and TLR. If he does that everything will work out. If he doesn’t it won’t. Its as simple as that.
The problem is RC, that in some cases what is best for the Cardinals and for TLR are mutually exclusive. I will never succumb to the theory that giving TLR everything he wants will make the Cardinals world go round.
Nut wrote, “Brendan Ryan is probably a miserable person to try to manage as he clearly has yet to grow up. I can sympathize with TLR.”
You know whats funny, I’ve spoken to Brendan 100 times and he is one kid who actually loves the cardinals and loves and respects TLR. He loves the history of the game and loves that he is playing for one of the more storied franchises. I mean he really wants to be in St. Louis, no matter what anyones says to him or how much they may tell him he is not a big leaguer, he still wants to be a Cardinal. Did you read that correctly? loves and respects TLR. Its definitely a one sided love affair it seems. He’s learning a life lesson the hard way, sometimes no matter how hard you try to please somebody, they always see you as second rate.
not grown up?
Thats right up there with clubhouse cancer isn’t it? I doubt thats it, more like just plain beat down, that fits better.
Well crdswmn, if you don’t, the players that are kept against TLR’s wishes are the ones that take the beating, not Mo. It just doesn’t seem to be a model for success imo. But 2011 may very well be a repeat of 2010 in the way things are run.
We’ve talked about it before, if you choose for TLR to be your manager, you need to give him what he works best with, the scrappy, on my last leg type guys, who will crawl over hot coals naked while soaked in gas just to hang on another year or two. Plus a dominant pitching staff, Albert and Yadi. You give TLR these things and he will have a competitive team that will get after you.
Very solid points by all. I would remind everyone that things aren’t likely what they appear. AZ plays indoors. They have a unusual fan base. They have financial issues……maybe circus Brendan………and young Colby, are a good enough reason to make a change???????? People like to see change………when you can’t afford it, or you don’t want to spend it……you move people with trades………
It is highly probable, because of the “before Christmas” time line now………that Colby will be traded. Teams like AZ, if giving up a SS, may want one back. Tony is going to be stirring the waters with impunity until he sees what BD’s intentions are with AP. In order to stay on top of his position as it stands, BD needs to create change that AP will like…………or……..dislike?. Tony is going to try to get what he needs, which is a different team chemistry. Tony whats to win. Its likely that his being very opinionated and vocal today, is an attempts at reclaiming on field command……….he’s the supposed expert………
I would also remind everyone that other teams have different methods……… I’m sure other teams see Colby’s problems and figure “we can fix that”. Everything has been done to keep our players “value” high. A cashless trade is exactly what BD loves………the most likely scenario. A two player deal makes everything easier. Its showy……………ask yourself……….is Tony trying to give Albert a few enticements, helping him to be more signable? You could easily argue that any money spent before talks, could really be canceled out in the negotiations………… that being so obvious……….. why hasn’t it been done? I don’t know the answer to that. BD has a play going. He’s good.
You don’t lose more games than anybody except Connie Mack without getting good at shifting the blame. Maybe Mo buys in and gives him whatever he says he needs to win. RC makes a sound arguement, but sometimes a sixth sense tells you that something just isn’t a good idea, like eating a corndog on a nude beach. If Mo gives in and 2011 doesn’t go too well, the whole situation would become very disagreeable.
BB-another anti-TLR bash.You realize you have to be pretty damn good to be in rthe situation to manage as many games to put up the stats.Thats without the pearls of wisdom from the internet smart guys and gals that know everything and always have the right answer.
“Westie, I assume that TLR simply doesn’t see Ryan as being worth the hassle. Brendan Ryan is probably a miserable person to try to manage as he clearly has yet to grow up. I can sympathize with TLR. As a manager in an entirely different field than baseball, I have stuck by a guy who was hard working, reliable, and trustworthy over someone with more ability because the latter caused me more headaches than he was worth.”
Nut, RC seems to know Brendan fairly well. I’m sure he is a good kid……………..question is, does he have special needs………….. or better yet, has Brendan been able to fulfill his needs……with what is available to him………from coaches, teammates, fans?
For me personally, his inability to appear in any way “athletic” at the plate……….proportionately to what he displays on the field……….is highly suspect…….. his ability to make adjustments to me screams of co-dependent head trips. A player that struggles, and deals with it so poorly, is almost appealing for an interventions from those that he derives his self image from. That very issue is Tony’s problem……….he plays surrogate father to a number of players. He is to sensitive emotional players………he knew Kalil was loopy………..he did everything he could to help the kid, including adapting and promoting the “social anxiety” diagnosis, instead of what it really was…………………..Brendan is not a self motivator in a complex and corrosive environment.
Brendan’s mustache, sox, hat head trips lasted right up until he was hung out to dry…………he has an identity problem…………..mixes real well with AP and Carp……………..grown men playing for money……….on the Tony stage?????????????? Brenda has value……..Skip has no value in a trade………….. Tejada would cost the Cardinals a lot of runs for a pitch to contact rotation. Plenty of smoke in the air…………..I don’t know whats gonna happen………….. Brendan doesn’t play on any team I choose…………… the variable……….without AP around, allot of people grow up. Know his future?
RC–I don’t disagree with anything you say about TLR. His treatment of Brendan Ryan is a prime example of the point I am trying to make. Giving in to TLR’s insatiable need to control his environment no matter the cost to players or the team just feeds the beast and makes him stronger. I realize trying to tame the beast takes a toll on the players, but the beast must be tamed. Otherwise the team is doomed to the SOS we got this year or worse. It’s like breaking a heroin addiction, it’s going to get worse before it gets better but you just have to do it. Enabling TLR is just not the solution imo. Obviously the ultimate solution is no TLR, but the Genie didn’t grant my wish.
Forcing TLR to manage the team he is given will reveal whether TLR cares more about winning or more about his ego. My bet is on the latter. If it is the former, then we have a winner. The ball is in Mo’s court.
Does loving your manager mean that you’re responsible and receptive? It’s clearly not just TLR who gets frustrated with Brendan Ryan. Doesn’t mean he’s not a good guy. Doesn’t mean that he’s not a good player. Probably a headache.
Sorry Bw, I forgot we’re all supposed to get in a circle and. . . scratch each other’s back. Let me make amends by passing along some info to back you up.
Best win percentages by managers with at least 600 managed games
Rank Name -Win Pct. -Games
1 Joe McCarthy .615 3,487
2 Jim Mutrie .611 1,114
3 Charlie Comiskey .608 1,410
4 Frank Selee .598 2,180
5 Billy Southworth .597 1,770
6 Frank Chance .593 1,622
7 John McGraw .586 4,769
8 Al Lopez .584 2,425
9 Earl Weaver .583 2,541
10 Mickey Cochrane .582 600
11 Harry Wright .581 2,185
12 Eddie Dyer .578 777
13 Cap Anson .578 2,288
14 Fred Clarke .576 2,829
15 Davey Johnson .564 2,039
16 Joe Girardi .563 648
17 Monte Ward .563 751
18 Pat Moran .561 1,344
19 Steve O’Neill .559 1,879
20 Walter Alston .558 3,658
21 Larry Dierker .556 783
22 Bobby Cox .556 4,508
23 Miller Huggins .555 2,570
24 Patsy Tebeau .555 1,339
25 Bill Terry .555 1,496
26 Buck Ewing .553 903
27 Billy Martin .553 2,267
28 Charlie Manuel .553 1,382
29 Grady Little .552 648
30 Walter Johnson .550 966
31 Ron Gardenhire .550 1,459
32 Mike Scioscia .550 1,782
33 Nap Lajoie .550 700
BB-Never said we all had to agree.IMO all the TLR hatred is freaking stupid.Thats my opinion.You and some others feel different.Thats your right.Just don`t expect me to goosestep with your little parade.Have a good one BB.
BB- how many seasons do some managers have? Where did they manage? How smart would Charlie Manuel be managing in Pittsburgh? Different circumstances make for different managers.Look at Joe Torre and how smart he got when he went to NY with unlimited payroll.Same for Terry Francona and CXharlie Manuel.Amazing how monster payroll makes a lot of managers smarter and win more games.Thinik about that BB.
No Whitey herzog on that lsit? Joe Torre?
No Whitey Herzog on that list? Joe Torre?
Welcome home Westie. Remember, you can’t choose your family.
600 games is a very low threshold… not even 4 full seasons. To put bb’s list in perspective, TLR has more WINS than the total number of games managed for all but 5 men on that list of 33… McCarthy, McGraw, Clarke, Alston and Cox.
TLR has managed at the highest level in baseball for 32 years. He’s 3rd all-time for wins with 2638 and 2nd in losses with 2293. With the White Sox his win % was .506, with Oakland .542 and .543 with the Cards. Overall, .535. A winner everywhere he’s been. In 15 years with the Cards, 12 winning seasons. In 10 years with the A’s, 7 winning seasons. In 8 years with the Pale Hose, 5 winning seasons.
He’s won 5 pennants and 2 World Series, is the only living man to win the WS in both leagues and one of only two men to ever accomplish that feat in the history of the game.
As Bw52 points out, you don’t get a chance to be #2 on the loss list unless you’re a good enough manager to hold a job… sort of like Cy Young, who heads both the lists for all-time wins and losses as a pitcher. Was Cy a good pitcher or a bad one?
I don’t agree with everything TLR does. I didn’t like him at all when he first came to the Cards because he changed the style of play from speed, defense and pitching to an AL-style home run game. But over the years, I’ve warmed to him. Bottom line… he wins. He gets more value out of marginal players than any manager I’ve ever seen and he’s probably forgotten more about baseball than all of us who comment here combined (excepting Brian).
From my viewpoint, attempts to demonize, denigrate and marginalize him speak volumes… but more about the people engaged in those pursuits than TLR, who will be a first ballot Hall of Famer when he decides to hang up the spikes.
I don’t think TLR will be a first ballot hall of fame manager though he’ll get in.
Someday we will have a tool that is able to accurately rank manager’s (and teams) based on their payroll. If TLR gets so much out of marginal players, he must not be getting enough out of higher priced players or he’d win even more.
cc wrote, “Someday we will have a tool that is able to accurately rank manager’s (and teams) based on their payroll. If TLR gets so much out of marginal players, he must not be getting enough out of higher priced players or he’d win even more.”
I believe most baseball managers really appreciate TLR’s game preparation. Dave Duncan is also part of that game preparation. Those two guys really know how to prepare for battle in a baseball game. Part of that preparation is also knowing how to put his older players in spots where they can be productive. TLR is a master in this regard.
The better player’s will tell you he likes to have his stamp on every single game, that he believes he has a bigger influence on the game than a player. Now he allows some players to do their thing while others can so much as let a fart out without getting fined. This is where the younger players will continue to have problems with him. They are not used to having their every move dictated to them and it makes some lose interest. The game becomes a calculus class instead of players reacting to their instincts on the field.
So the younger guys spend all their waking moments on the field worrying about not making mistakes and that only makes them make more. Colby has gotten worse these last two years. He was the most instinctive player I have ever had play for me in high school. You didn’t have to tell him anything, he knew how to play the game. Now he looks lost most of the time. Brendan has looked the same, Greene as well. Jay started having his fill there at the end. Case in point, Colby was made to play much more shallow this past year by TLR and his defense slipped according to all accounts. 2009 Colby played where he thought he should have played. Which year was better for Colby defensively? Over managing? But you do recollect Tony coming out and saying one day that he positioned Jay too shallow….not once did he say that about Colby.
Yet he positioned the OF.
TLR will have to adjust his style if he is to have success with the younger players. But my money is that he can’t so the younger guys need to be dealt and more aged veteran guys need to be put in there place so Tony can be at his best. And like I said TLR is a master of putting his stamp on every game so he needs the tools to be able to do that in 2011.
There are a total of 8 managers in the entire history of the game who’ve won more World Series than TLR. Joe McCarthy and Casey Stengel won 7. Connie Mack won 5. Walter Alston and Joe Torre won 4. Sparky Anderson, Miller Huggins and John McGraw won 3.
There are just 20 managers in the entire history of the game who’ve won as many World Series as TLR. That list includes the 8 men in the previous paragraph, plus Bill Carrigan, Frank Chance, Cito Gaston, Terry Francona, Bucky Harris, Ralph Houk, Tom Kelly, Tommy Lasorda, Bill McKechnie, Danny Murtaugh, Billy Southworth, and Dick Williams.
HBT and BW. There is no denying TLR has had a magnificent career and will be in the HOF one day. You won’t get an argument from me on that. He is excellent at what he does well. My problem is with the cardinals signing him and not giving him the tools with which he works best. If you keep the same team around him you will have the same issues next year. Those won’t evaporate into thin air.
Yet most of those guys won as many or more titles managing less seasons and many in an era when there were no playoffs (which greatly improve your chances at getting a shot to win one). Not saying TLR isn’t a good manager but I doubt he’d be in my top 20 all time either statistically or
subjectively.
Yet Billy Southworth with the 5th highest winning % of all time and the same number of titles as TLR never made the regular HOF vote (only made it via the veteran’s committee.) First Ballot will be tough.
It seems counter-productive for Tony to want to be rid of Brendan while wanting to keep Skip.
Does he want players that fit the team’s needs best or does he want players he likes?
The way our pitching staff is constructed (per Tony & Dave’s wishes), having Skip at second hurts us as much as he would any team in baseball. I just can’t grasp the concept of him backing a terrible defender in the middle infield, regardless of who it is. It just doesn’t make sense.
Simply playing a whole season with Westbrook and taking our second base defense from bad to average (or, preferably, even better) would have a HUGE impact on this team.
That is why the combination of Westbrook and Hudson makes SO much sense to me.
HB—My dislike of TLR speaks of only one thing about me–my dislike of TLR. We encourage tolerance of differing opio
Cont. opinions here.
Of the 8 managers who’ve won more WS than TLR, 4 of them (McCarthy, Stengel, Torre and Huggins) won all their WS titles with the NY Yankees. Two of the others (Alston and McGraw) won some or all of their titles with other New York teams… McGraw won all his WS with the NY Giants and Alston won 1 with the Brooklyn Dodgers and 3 with the LA version of that team.
Only Sparky and Connie Mack, among the 8, didn’t win some of all of their titles with the Yanks or another NY-based team.
Of the 12 men who have as many WS wins as TLR, Houk won both with the Yanks and Harris one with the Yanks and 1 with the Senators. Carrigan and Francona won with the Red Sox, Chance with the Cubbies (1907 & 1908), Gaston with the Blue Jays, Kelly with the Twins, Lasorda with the Dodgers, Williams with the A’s, Murtaugh with the Pirates, McKechnie with the Pirates and Reds, and Billy Southworth with the Cards.
Not too shabby…
Tony will use a progressive statistical analysis, to validate a personal (pet) preference………..basking it it uniqueness and its personal vindication of said pet preference….
The most famous is the pitcher hitting 8th……….there are others…….. another example has been talked about here today……….can you name it? And more interestingly, how and why he justifies using these moves………………..
Easton wrote, ‘Does he want players that fit the team’s needs best or does he want players he likes?”
I believe Tony would rather have the player who he likes best because that player will buy in to what Tony is doing because he realizes that Tony will put him in the best spot to continue his career, which most any other place would probably have ended. If Tony doesn’t like you then Albert doesn’t like you so then you have more to put up with than you can imagine.
Best to surround Tony with those guys who will do whatever. If Tony chooses a player then no matter what he will continue to support that player, if he doesn’t you are dead on arrival. So, in other words, Mo should get who Tony wants. Then you wouldn’t have these squabbles where Tony is just showing you who is boss type of things. It should be about baseball, not the other mess.
Get Tony who he wants, and this team will contend. Easy as that.
RC — You say that in handling young players, TLR needs to change to accomodate them or trade them. There’s another option of course, the most logical and obvious one. Young players should adapt to the teaching, instruction and wishes of their manager, who is the agent of their employer, the guy who pays their salaries.
He who pays the piper calls the tune, not the other way around.
And as I recall, Albert, Yadi, Skip, Jaime and Waino all came to the club under TLR as youngish players and have done well. The same might be said of Freese, Boggs, Kmac, Hawksworth and Jay to a lesser extent among those currently with the team and many who came before them. So I think your generalization about TLR and young players is not entirely accurate.
As for Colby being an instinctive player… apparently those instincts don’t include throwing the ball strongly and accurately, stealing bases, taking the outside pitch to the opposite field, positioning himself to throw after the catch and having his head in the game at all times.
Don’t get me wrong, I think Colby has mad skills and is going to be an excellent ballplayer, but he’s not a complete player yet by any stretch of the imagination. I hope he continues to improve in the areas noted, under the instruction of TLR and his staff, and remains with the Cards for a good, long and productive time.
crdswmn — I agree, and please forgive me if in defending TLR and Skip I feel like the diversity candidate here sometimes.
It works both ways, HBT. It has to.
If I don’t like how MY manager (or any significant representative of my employer) treats me – heck, if I simply don’t like him/her/them – I can just find a new job.
Pro baseball players don’t have that option.
People don’t think it is a big deal because they make ‘a lot of money’ but pro baseball players have no choice with regard to their employer. How would you like that?
No matter how much you disliked your boss, disagreed with the higher-ups, felt you were treated unfairly, weren’t put in a position to succeed, weren’t promoted when you felt you deserved it, etc., etc. every night you went home realizing there was NOTHING you could do about it. If you wanted to be in that line of work ever again, you had to suck it up and put a smile on your face every morning.
It doesn’t take a psychology background to realize that it must work both ways.
I once left a job that I hated because several of the above were going on. Had I not been able to leave voluntarily and do nearly the same thing, for at least the same money, elsewhere I would have lost my mind.
HBT wrote, “RC — You say that in handling young players, TLR needs to change to accomodate them or trade them. There’s another option of course, the most logical and obvious one. Young players should adapt to the teaching, instruction and wishes of their manager, who is the agent of their employer, the guy who pays their salaries.”
I don’t think TLR should accomodate anyone, and he won’t. I do believe, however, that he will have more success if given a team that he wants, which would not include many young players. Which is why Walt traded away the young players for years.
Dave Duncan deals with the pitchers, exclusively, so TLR has little interaction with them.
I think you’re right about David and Jay. TLR has spoken real positively about both. I believe they will have a lot of success in St. Louis under TLR.
HBT wrote, “As for Colby being an instinctive player… apparently those instincts don’t include throwing the ball strongly and accurately, stealing bases, taking the outside pitch to the opposite field, positioning himself to throw after the catch and having his head in the game at all times.”
I did say Colby used to be, not currently is. I also stated that he was a better player in high school than he is now. Everything you wrote is the spot on truth. I can tell you this HBT, If TLR is the manager you say he is, then he should be the one who corrects those problems. They weren’t problems 5 years ago, just today. If TLR is responsible for all of the instruction and teaching like you say and he can’t get the player to improve in any one area, then you most definitely need to get rid of those players who he can’t seem to reach. I guess they will start with Brendan and go from there.
HBT wrote, “Don’t get me wrong, I think Colby has mad skills and is going to be an excellent ballplayer, but he’s not a complete player yet by any stretch of the imagination. I hope he continues to improve in the areas noted, under the instruction of TLR and his staff, and remains with the Cards for a good, long and productive time.”
I say again, He used to be a far superior player. I doubt he improves much in his current situation. But maybe TLR can work his magic on Colby and Colby can turn into Albert. Man wouldn’t that be nice?
Actually, after six years of service, every professional ballplayer has the right to seek a new employer then and every year thereafter. I am not coming down on one side of this discussion or the other, but it is fair to remember that these young men are highly compensated for their efforts.
And for the record, I have previously stated that it was Colby’s job to conform to TLR, not TLR to Colby. But I can also watch the games and see something is wrong. I can see Colby getting worse as a player. There comes a time when one has to ask oneself if this can’t be fixed some way. I guess you can say, you are stuck buddy, and you just better learn to deal with it. My concern lies there because I don’t think that will work out very well for anybody.
Brian, six years is a long time to be tied to an employer you had no real chose but to join in the first place if there is a compatibility (or similar) issue.
I am not saying either side is right or wrong but I do have issue with the belief that people that make money should have to deal with more that others don’t….just because.
How many minor leaguers never turned into major leaguers because of, ultimately, a philosophical or personal conflict with his controlling team? My guess would be ‘tons’. They certainly don’t make money in the minors.
I am simply presenting a possible psychological counterpoint. I am not, necessarily, arguing for it.
easton — A player signs a contract in professional ball with his eyes open. Nobody forces it on him. Indeed, it’s a rare opportunity that many seek and few attain. Part of the deal is not having the freedom to break a contract without suffering consequences. That just goes with the territory.
Personally, if someone were to offer me a $1M signing bonus and agree to pay me almost a $1/2M per year to play a game I love… well, I’d find a way to make it work. No excuses.
If they told me to jump, I’d ask ‘how high’? I’d do what they asked and the best job I possibly could or go down in flames trying. Pride, when swallowed, isn’t always tasty… but at times it’s a necessary nutrient for personal growth. I’ve certainly swallowed my share and imagine most others have too.
RC — Nothing I’d love better than to see Colby become a fixture and top performer for the Cards. Becoming another Albert is a pretty tall order, but I’d settle for a reasonable facsimile of Jimmy Ballgame in his prime. That’s definitely not out of reach. He has all the tools. Now he just needs the discipline, drive and determination to get the most out of them. And if he’s willing to listen and learn from those who are trying to help him, I think he’ll get there.
TLR doesn’t demand pefection. He does demand maximum effort, respect for the game and going about things the right way. When he sees those characteristics in a player he is in their corner through thick and thin. Skip is a fine example of this… not the most gifted player in shoe leather but a guy who approaches the game in the the right way.
I’d bet money TLR was just that kind of player himself.
I hope Colby is better than he was 5 years ago. Maybe he just seemed better by comparison, not playing against/with the best ballplayers on the planet, as he is now. If he’s not better, then he’s been failed by someone in our minor league system whose job it was to help him hone his skills.
HBT, that is a pretty naive approach to the real life. Things work out so well on paper.
“Personally, if someone were to offer me a $1M signing bonus and agree to pay me almost a $1/2M per year to play a game I love… well, I’d find a way to make it work. No excuses.”
What about those who sign for nothing or darn near it and make e a few hundred a month in the minors?
HBT wrote, “Personally, if someone were to offer me a $1M signing bonus and agree to pay me almost a $1/2M per year to play a game I love… well, I’d find a way to make it work. No excuses.”
You know what, it sounds like you would be one of those aging vets that would excel under TLR.
easton — Well, there’s always that job stocking shelves at the grocery store…
RC — Well, I am a veteran and I am aging… a little more every day. (Insert wink here, I don’t know how you guys do those smiley faces).
Your pushing a bad position RC……………… Tony is staying and you guys are leaving……….the only question is………..how much and where. Help yourself.
This is also the answer to the Quiz……….. Why is Colby playing so shallow.
WC I got it, been pushing one for a few years now.
WC, Here is the truth as I know it.
Colby actually just found a new home in the St. Louis area, complete with a basement big enough for a full batting cage. He just put money down and has, I believe, had someone sign a contract to purchase his old home. Colby has actually scheduled some hitting sessions with Mark McGwire for this month as he knows he needs to be the hitter that Mark and TLR want him to be. Seems to be heading in the right direction huh HBT?
He actually wants to be in St. Louis and actually is excited to get after it this year in hopes that the team can win enough games so that TLR can retire a year earlier than he presently had planned.
Trying to help TLR reach the Hall of Fame a year sooner than some would expect.
I actually believe Colby is in Illinois right now on a hunting trip with Mark McGwire. That is a positive again isn’t it HBT?
Most excellent news RC…………………………….
RC — That is good news and I wish Colby every success and a long career as a Cardinal. Mike Shannon always says it takes 3 years to become a big leaguer, and this is Colby’s third year. Time to rise and shine and be THE GUY we want and need him to be. I think he can do it.
Maybe with that new batting cage his dad will show him a trick or two about taking the ball to LF like he did a little late this year and in the post-season vs. LA in 2009. There are 20-30 points added onto his batting average over there… seek and ye shall find!
But you never know… if TLR wins another WS he may hang around longer, trying to catch up with Torre and Alston!
Damn, RC, there is probably a month worth of material that Strauss can extrapolate (exaggerate ?) out of that post!
Hanging with MM is a good start, RC. Encourage him to snuggle up to Yadi and Skip. Learn the bat flip and the home to first mosey. By all means shun Brendan. Then, when the moment is right, meekly approach the mang, curtsy, couple of we’re not worthy bows, and ask permission to wash his feet. I assume he has already given up meat and adopted some stray rescue dogs. This could be a hell of a year.
RC — I’m just glad to hear it’s not you and TLR out hunting together. I fear one of those Dick Cheney moments might result… as you each urge the other to take ‘the point’.
Thanks for the news, RC.
CC, I will beat the others to the punch. I am preparing to make a blog post on the subject now. That is the least I can do to continue to try to keep the Rasmania under control!
HBT, I’m more of a hands on guy. If I have a problem with you I’m more apt to lay hands on you than shoot you.
I believe the hunting trip has a lot of cardinals or former cardinals there. I believe Danny Cox is the one who sponsors it, at least I believe it is, Just guessing but I know Danny has had Colby out to his farm numerous times. I’m only playing about Mark McGwire being there, Brian.
I believe Pheasants are on the menu this weekend.
You mean he didn’t pack up and move to Alabama? What’s a person to believe?
HBT wrote, “Maybe with that new batting cage his dad will show him a trick or two about taking the ball to LF like he did a little late this year and in the post-season vs. LA in 2009. There are 20-30 points added onto his batting average over there… seek and ye shall find!”
Dad coaches a team, here in God’s country, Alabama. I am dead set on not doing any hitting work this year with anyone north of Auburn Alabama. That is a promise. Mark knows how to hit, hopefully he knows how to coach hitting.
Metal flake……..emerald green corvette will be fine.
There goes my big site giveaway scheme for next season, up in smoke.
A hitting lesson with RC in Colby’s new cage…. Darn….
Durn RC you’ve gone and ruined the melodrama.
I’ve got Direct TV so I can watch the games from my living room. No need to make that long trip to St. Louis. I do plan on going to Chicago cause I love watching games at that joint but I won’t have time to visit ol St. Louis this year. I have a full summer on tap of baseball related activities so I will be busy.
Than kfully for you too by the way. If TLr found out that I was going to be giving hitting lessons anywhere in St. Louis he may have the power cut off, or even may have the house bulldozed.
I know Crdswmn, it is fun to rev the hardened cardinals fan up only to let the air out of the balloon. They all will walk over broken glass barefoot to defend TLR or the cardinals. I think it is cool. I just like to see it every once in a while just to make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
I wouldn’t across the street to defend TLR.
But then everyone knows that already. 
That was supposed to be “walk” across the street. It’s been a long day.
I guess some of us diehard Cards fans happen to like most of what the manager does.I don`t call that walking barefoot over broken glass.Nobody saying TLR is perfect by any means.He is not the antichrist that some people don`t like because they prefer the spittin beer drinking ass scratching aw shucks type.I prefer the type of manager that has a team thats in contention yearly and does not run off and quit because the owner doesn`t give him everything he wants (The White quitter Rat)..
Guess what Whitey lovers…..how many teams play banjo ball anymore.Not a whole hell of a lot.So just pop your beer and moan about good ole Whitey and when baseball was baseball in your minds.
Relax there good buddy. Here you go…enjoy.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EuBu-c7pox0/Rbgs1SgPE6I/AAAAAAAAAEI/oTuyDBYS994/s400/tony%2Btony%2Btony.bmp
RC i realize everyone has their own opimion.Thats their perogative.I just get tired of the TLR hate from so-called fans.Hell yes TLR does things that make people shake their heads and wonder at times and he not Mr Television personality..i realize these things.For people to not appreciate the fact that the Cards have had a damn good run since his arrival is simply assinine.Have a good one.
Well BW, its more of the, what have you done for me lately sentiment, that has TLR in hot water with some fans. His team has really wilted these last 4 years and he seems to have a hard time adjusting to the up and coming player that is entering the league. Some people see that, while others see the winning record and say he keeps us winning. I see both sides and they both are logical positions to argue from.
So I’m guessing so long as the team has a winning record over the next 2 years you will be satisfied? I’m not expecting much change but you never know, thats what they play the season for.
The team had a winning record last year but it wasn’t reallly satisfactory. 2009 wasn’t so great either. Whenever the team lays down and dies at crunch time it is reasonable to wonder about the effectiveness of the leadership, on the field and in the dugout. Its happened two years in a row now. How much sense does it make to blame the young guys for that? None IMO.
RCW-never said i would be completely satisfied with just a winning record.Don`t try and spin.Its nice to be in contention every year .Its even better to make the playoffs .Even better to make and win WS.The Cards have been a contender most of the time in TLRs stay.Of course i would like a WS winner all the time.That said dealing with the budget restraints and staying in contention yearly in a good deal.I grew up watching and listening to Cards baseball in the early 60`s so i am not a latecomer bandwagon fan.I remember the terrible decade of the 70`s and the team winning in the 80`s and flopping in the 87 series and being screwed in 1985 (even after the Denkinger screwup the Cards still failed to make the needed plays).TZLR ain`t not saint and he sure as hell drives people crazy with his moves at time….yet the team has been a contender on a consisitent basis and thatys more than what happened under several other managers who preceded him.You can`t reach the 2nd step until you reach the 1st one.
There is no doubt there is not much togetherness involved in this group. There is the pitchers led by Carp, There is the duo of Albert and Yadi, and then there is the rest of the group. All under the umbrella of leadership of TLR.
I heard this at the end last year when someone was asked why there was no fight left in the team. The response was that they were too tired from fighting among themselves.
TLR has his work cut out for him it seems in order to try to bring this group together. The Cardinals seem to be mentally spent at the end of these last 3 or 4 years. A good challenge it seems for a Hall of Fame manager to figure out and fix.
BW, No spin. You are a cardinals fan and have been for a while. Good for you. I just asked you a question and you answered. I really could care less either way to be totally honest with you. I’m just an unattached bystander.
Well, my spin from a “so-called” fan since 1965 is this. TLR has been with the Cardianals for 15 years. His effectiveness has diminished as seen from the team’s performance since 2006. Players can’t stay on top of their game forever, why should anyone think a manager can? Tony has lost it. He can’t deal with the younger players as RC as said and they are the future of this ball club. TLR has an ego that refuses to acknowledge either that his time has come and gone or that his methods no longer work. He will not change and it has brought this team down. I am a Cardinals fan through and through but not a blind one. There will be no more chanpionships for the Cards until TLR goes or by some miracle he decides to put the team before his ego.
Mo confirms plans in Sunday Strauss article. No surprises.
Considering SS upgrade for offense.
All but ruled out trading Skip, who is more likely to be 2B than utility player.
Looking to add utility guy for 3B behind Freese.
May add experienced RF who is limited defensively.
Reyes replacement secondary to improving offense.
Will move on from Westbrook if goes into December.
Doesn’t see Colby as a “big issue anymore” after it was talked through. “Very difficult or almost impossible to replace…”
I think I am going to be disappointed this off-season.
(sigh)
I am not asking for the world. In fact, I am not asking for anything that costs a huge chunk of money. I just want ‘The Cardinals” (define that however you want) to open up their damn eyes and admit Skip is not a a second baseman.
Get rid of Brendan AND Skip for all I care but do not tell me that you are trying to replace Brendan but keep Skip and expect me to take you sersiously.