Do the colorful necklaces worn by professional athletes meet their manufacturer’s claims?
In Men’s Fitness magazine, I came across an interesting article entitled “Are Baseball Necklaces Bogus?” The piece describes the colorful titanium-based necklaces seemingly sported by every player in the game. The manufacturer, Phiten, a Chinese company, states the benefits include energy boost, quicker injury recovery and relief of muscle aches.
From their product catalog:
“Our products work with your body’s energy system, regulating and balancing the energy flow of all the internal structures. Most times people will reach for chemical and medical solutions to block out physical discomfort. Phiten offers a way to alleviate discomfort, enjoy a speedy recovery or even counteract fatigue in a unique, 100% non-medicated way.”
While in New York with the Cardinals at Citi Field this past summer, a very athletic woman representing Phiten was working her way through the clubhouse with brochures and cards along with sample necklaces and wrist bands. While I certainly don’t look like I could be confused for uniform personnel, I was issued a set as well (see photo of my still-unused items). Soon, clubhouse attendants and ballboys alike were attired in the officially MLB-licensed team-colored and logoed Phiten products.
In their brochure, Phiten touts sponsorships from Josh Beckett, Brandon Webb, Justin Morneau, Tim Lincecum, Joba Chamberlain and Justin Verlander, among athletes from other sports.
Their product lines are vast, from Body Supports, to Titanium discs, tape and strips, to massage lotion, and of course, a wide variety of necklaces and bracelets.
What’s the catch?
Again, from Men’s Fitness:
“No scientific evidence exists to back up Phiten’s claims, and the “aqua-titanium” technology the company uses to dissolve titanium into water isn’t approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.”
No one seems to know whether these items work or if are they just a fad-driven movement fueled by superstitious athletes.
Any opinions out there?
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Having spent a lot of time in clubhouses/locker rooms of various sports witnessing far crazier superstitions, I would vote “not a chance in hell” – but that the players really don’t care if it works or not.
It certainly couldn’t hurt….right?
That rubs right up there against those power balance bracelets that every one of my players have taken up the last 2 weeks. A great money making scam I guess as they seem to sell like hot cakes.
And as a group I told my guys that you might as well be sacrificing live chickens to get the hex off your bat. That will work just as well as the ballance bracelt or the necklace.
I once had a guy on my summer team – very country type – who felt he needed to kill a possum to get his bat going again. So he left the hotel on foot, bat in hand, at around midnight, and came back about 2 am with the bat covered in blood. I am surprised he didn’t get arrested.
This was in Buckhead/Atlanta – literally surrounded by high end bars/clubs/restaurants/million dollar homes.
He did hit a home run that day, though.
I thought:
“Great…now he believes that worked!”
I wonder if Jobu endorses them?
It worked for Linicum didnt it?
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Great post, Westie!!!
This reminds me of Bull Durham. You know wearing women’s underwear and refusing to have sex until you lose? I don
I hit submit before I finished. I am not using my own computer. Anyway I don’t know anything about the necklaces, but I am skeptical about all that snake oil stuff.
Come on Jumbo, that probably ranks among Westie’s top 1% of of posts in terms of meaningfulness.
CC, the “…………………” are very soothing. Like classical guitar. Peaceful. Serene.
You have to read between the dots.
You are right bb. I took out my magnifying glass and just as I expected — there’s nothing there.
I only read the dots. I like looking for the good in others and when I see those dots, they make me happy.
Bw compares Westie to a preacher. Reminds me when I called him a shaman. Before that, I thought he was a psychiatrist or the patient of one. My curremt guess is he is a guitar playing disciple of Nancy Pelosi and Babara Boxer.
Interesting to see the Cards off-load Matt Pagnozzi, after he hit well during September. What does this tell us?
September stats are unimportant.
Mo appreciates the years of service by Pagnozzi to the minors. He got rewarded with a September promotion and chance to play. His ML stats are now safely in the record books and Matt can look back on them with pride.
Third, the Cards do not regard Pags as part of their ML future. They know from his minor league career Pagnozzi is not much of a hitter, even if got lucky during September.
Fourth, Tony Cruz had a good 2010 at A+ and AA and is hitting well in Arizona. It may be better to play Cruz, Anderson, and Hill at AAA in 2011. We give Pagnozzi a chance to land a job with another organization that has need for a capable AAA catcher.
Jumbo — Was Pags actually released/claimed of waivers or just taken off the 40-man?
HB–here’s brians wording from the depth charts/roster matrix………..
11/4: C Matt Pagnozzi outrighted. Eligible for minor league free agency.
Pagnozzi was removed from the 40 man roster. This haas the effect of turning him into a minor league free agent. It remains to be seen where he will land for 2011. He could re-sign with Memphis or go to any other AAA team.
There are at least two ways of looking at this. If we thought he was a strong candidate for backup catcher for the Cards in 2011, would we surrender control over his services? Probably not, I would guess.
An alternative outlook is we have someone else we wish to protect on the 40 man this fall and believe we can re-sign Pagnozzi to a more appropriate value as a AAA type player. So its not clear that Pagnozzi is headed out the door. But he now gets to choose whose contract to sign for 2011.
Baseball entails a great deal of personnel change. About 60 new players a year come into the system at bottom rungs, so there has to be equal upward or outward flow from the system, to make room for newcomers.
bip & Jumbo — Thanks for the info. Hope Jumbo’s alternative outlook is the real deal. I know Matt has miserable offensive numbers over a long MiLB career, but he was really stinging the ball the last few weeks of the 2010 season. It seems an odd way to ‘reward’ him for doing a fine job those last few weeks. But either way, I wish Matt Pagnozzi well.
I wonder if this points toward the club looking for a veteran backup backstop, or whether they’ll give Anderson or Hill a shot at the job? Maybe we can talk SF into taking Anderson for Buster Posey? (Yeah… right!)
There is a reward for Pagnozzi — he is no longer tied to the Cards. If he gets offers from other teams, thanks to play in September, he is free to decide what is best for himself. At this stage of his career (late), this is helpful.
From the Cards point of view, they need to use roster slots on the people they hope can help the most, in short and long runs. At catcher, they have enough guys high in the system (Anderson, Cruz, and Hill). They had to shed Pagnozzi, like Joe Mather, to make room for others to play. They did not dislike Pagnozzi and fire him, rather gave him freedom to job hunt.
A key thing to watch will be whether the Cards recruit a backup ML catcher. They traditionally like to sign the backup early in the off-season, like November.
Who will the Cards pursue as a backup catcher? It will not be someone who is a Type A free agent, who would cost loss of next year’s top draft choice in June.
Another factor is price. We typically do not pay much more than $800K for a backup catcher.
However, maybe for the right guy, we would splurge a bit. DeWitt did not like getting overtaken by the Reds.
One possibility could be Jason Varitek, if he does not retire. Varitek could supplement Yadier by offering a lefty swing. We like those ex-Red Sox players.
Another name available in the market is Jose Molina, Yadier’s brother.
Correction, the Jays retained control over Jose. Benjie Molina may be a free agent, however.
Bengie collected $4.5MM in 2010. Even if he commands less in 2011, when he turns 37, he is probably too pricey for the Cards. Maybe by 2013.
I agree, Jumbo. Doesn’t seem likely that Bengie would accept $1M to ride the pines behind his little brother.
stl will probably be shopping in the varitek, blanco FA isle. if one of buck/olivo accepts arb, AA may look to move jose. olivo and buck ranked 9th and 10th in innings for 2010, surely they both decline and look for a starter role/$.
Jumbo wrote, ‘There is a reward for Pagnozzi — he is no longer tied to the Cards.”
At least you have it in you to even make this comment.
Pagnozzi is family. His uncle played for the Birds. We are grateful for his loyal service.
Yet the baseball business is cruel, few win fame and fortune, many must be cast out, to clear a path for the next year’s crop.
If Pagnozzi and Mather have come off the roster, who will be added this month? I will guess 5 names: SS Pete Kozma. RHP Brandon Dickson. Right relievers Reifer and Sanchez. Catcher Tony Cruz.
Chambers is certainly another possibility.
What would be the reason to add them to the 40 man this month?
It protects them from being chosen by another team in the Rule 5 draft.
Time flies, I hadn’t thought Chambers and Kozma had been around that long.
I dont see another team able to carry Chambers on their ML roster for a season. He may need 750 more AAA at bats before ready for MLB.
Chambers has a better chance of sticking than either Cruz or Kozma. He has more AAA AB’s than they do (with pretty good success) and he was more successful in is AA stint. On top of that he is probably closer to ready defensively.
SS is a more valuable position than modest hitting OF. Another team could select Kozma and carry him as a reserve IF in 2011, assign him to AAA for 2012, and hope he could become a ML starter in 2013. I doubt an opposing team would go to that trouble for Chambers.
Kozma is not good enough of a prospect to be worth stashing on the end of the bench for a year. Kozma most likely will be protected but it will be as much out of PR concerns as baseball concerns in my opinion.
Pete had a good year with the stick at AA, better than Brendan Ryan, if IIRC. He racks up errors, but is by no means alone among minor league SSes in so doing; it goes with the job. Kozma is on a normal trajectory. He’s not Starlin Castro, but may become an everyday ML player. We shall see.
Agree with CC on Kozma. If he makes the 40-man it’s to spare Luhnow embarrassment. He was a #1 pick in 2007 and has spent all but 18 games of the last two season at 2A, where he’s hit .216 and .243. He did have some nice HR/2B/RBI numbers this year but here’s the most alarming number… 34 errors at SS in each of the last two years. Who’s going to put that on their MLB team for an entire year? Nobody…
Does anyone know the average number of errors (on a per game basis) for AA shortstops? Does Kozma record more errors than normal for a AA SS (on a per game basis)?
Kozma began 2009 at Palm Beach, but the Cards had to promote him because of an injury gap. In 2010, his OPS was above 700, good for SS.
Kozma has been unlucky. He got blamed for not being Porcello, who lots of teams refused to draft. He had to be promoted to AA in 2009 though not ready. Because a high pick, he comes in for excessive expectations. He should just keep working and not pay attention to the fans.
On Pete’s AFL team, there is another SS, Cale Iorg, sone of ex-Cards Dane. Cale is 25, having played some college and gone on a Mormon mission for a year or two. Iorg collected a million dollar bonus same year as Kozma, 2007. Kozma has 2 errors in the AFL, Iorg has 5. Kozma is hitting better than Iorg and is younger.
Jumbo, you can obfiscate all you want but the question at hand was related to whether Kozma was at risk of being chosen in the rule 5 draft and sticking on another team’s 25 man roster all year. Whether or not the Tigers made a mistake with Iorg is immaterial to that discussion.
However, if you want to discuss the relative merits of spending a 1st round draft choice (which current research tends to value at about $5 million) or drafting a similar player in the 6th round, we can do that. Iorg has played a full year in AAA and is considered a better fielder (certainly has made less errors at AA and AAA than Kozma has the last 2 years. Kozma may have the better bat.
The bottom line is that Kozma did not rate to be picked where he did. Iorg probably didnt rate the bonus he did (though I don’t know for sure). One plays for the Cardinals and I care enough about them to bitch from time to time about the wasted draft pick. The other plays for the Tigers and I could care less about him.
For what it is worth, Sickels ranked both as C prospects before the year. Kozma ranked 16th in our system and Iorg 20th in a stronger system.
Hmmmmm………..C prospect in the 1st round or C prospect in the 6th round. No question in my mind who was the better deal (or the lesser mistake).
different product (I think) but here’s some research.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_weekend/20101104/ts_yblog_weekend/do-power-balance-wristbands-work
Correction: Cale Iorg is a nephew of Dane, son of Garth. He went on a mission to Portugal, after his freshman year at the U of Alabama. Having not played for two college seasons, he was hard to rank and price. The Tigers feeling generous on bonuses (Porcello and Crosby), also invested in Iorg, ranked about 180 in the nation by MLBs scouting network. Kozma was ranked 39th.
Kozma is playing better than the older Cale in the AFL, though this is paltry n.
Its untrue to say Kozma did not deserve to be selected in the first round. He was rising on the eve of the draft. If you were to subcribe to Baseball America, their pre-draft coverage of the 2007 draft is easily available on line and you can look at the contemporaneous rankings and scouting opinions about the top US amateurs.
It seems unfair to dump on Kozma or on the Cards for picking him. He is doing ok, at least with the stick, for his age given the level.
Of course, he is no Starlin Castro, but few are.
So one player was drafted about where he was ranked and the other was a significant overdraft (by the info provided by you). I thank you for making my case for me.
Overdraft is tricky in drafts in recent times, owing to the size of bonuses influencing decisions. Iorg got bonused like a supplemental first round talent. He was a classic small n gamble, since out of the US for two college seasons. The Alabama area scout who signed Rasmus moved to the Royals and by 2007 the Cards may not have had a scout who saw Iorg play in 2004/5. But they did have a guy, Steve Gossett, who had followed Kozma closely. The Cards value defense, so invested in a SS high.
Another guy the Cards might add to the 40 man is Tommy Pham. Pham improved last year, has a strong arm, good speed, can drive the ball, and is 1.5 years younger than Chambers.
I still like Chambers, but between the two of them, I would protect Pham.
I am not sure the Cards are done yet on dropping some folks off their current 40 man roster. They may make roster room for both Pham and Chambers.
Two more candidates for the 40 man are a reliever Delgado and LHP Additon.
Delgado gets people out. He is not said to have a big arm, but he has been effective. I would guess he does not get protected, but he was a last minute fillin for the AFL rising stars game.
Additon has been a starting pitcher and eats his innings. 6’5″ southpaws are not to be overlooked. He may not throw hard, but he might develop into a Loogy.
Come on you guys, quit talking about the Cards most ML ready prospects, its depressing.
Additon? You are joking aren’t you Beau? If they protect Additon, I’ll bow to you superior knowledge on all things related to prospects for at least a year. (I’ll also be calling for Mo’s head!)
Additon was 18 when drafted in ’06, but it looks like he did not play until ’07. So he has only 4 seasons.
I would be a little surprised if they protect Additon this fall, but the Cards will want to think about it, since lefties are useful assets. Ray Mileur used to love Additon. He has been poised for his age. He’s a starter, a reason not be sent to the AFL. Cotton Dickson and Additon have done better at AA than high picks Lambert and Pomeranz. He may not be a great prospect, but he’s not bad either. Low profile but chugging along.
I wouldn’t think there was anything to protect him from.
GOOD lefties are useful assets. Not that Additon is bad but he is soft tosser who will have to have superb control and command to make it. He isn’t there yet and there is a high chance he never does.
Additon led the Springfield staff in innings pitched during 2010. He was a draft and follow pick in 2006, put in a freshman year at Indian River Community College, then signed in May 2007. Additon keeps chugging along, while others fall by the wayside. I like the job he has been doing.
Its fun to think of some of the guys Additon has outpitched:
first rounder Chris Lambert.
supplemental first rounder Mark McCormick.
second rounder Stu Pomeranz.
3rd rounder Gary Daley Jr.
fifth rounder Tom Eager.
4th rd Rice U All american Degerman.
2nd rdr Druggie Herron.
Flame throwing hop head Kenny Maiques.
First rounder Adam Ottavino.
Second rounders Josh Wilson and Nick Webber.
Second round southpaw Brad Furnish.
Baby Face Thompson did not have a big arm, but put in 4+ years in the Show. Lefties do not have to throw as hard as righties. Additon is a prospect.
Um, I’m not so sure about that list. In particular, I’d dispute Ottavino.
And all the others never sniffed the majors.
Additon? Seriously?
He is exhibit A that you can dominate in the lower levels simply by throwing strikes and having a commanded, if uninspiring, change.
Nutlaw, Ottavino’s ERA at Springfield was an unbecoming 5.23 in 115 innings. At about the same age, Additon threw 150 innings for Springfield with an ERA of 4.43 (0.8 lower).
Addition also made 8 starts at the end of 2009, 48 innings, 3.19 ERA. Combining these numbers at AA, he has 198 innings versus 115 for Ottavino and an ERA about 1 run lower, at about the same age.
In terms of WHIP, Ottavino was 1.60, Additon 1.38. In terms of walk to K ratio, Additon was better during 2010 than Ottavino at AA during 2008. In terms of innings pitched per start, Additon went deeper into games. The kid from Western High in Davie FL wins the head to head matchup.
I looked up Kozma versus Cale Iorg, team-mates in the AFL, both SS bonus babies in 2007.
Kozma outhit Iorg during 2010, for each the second year at AA. Iorg played in the Eastern League versus Texas and it may be harder to hit there, I am unsure. Unless there are league effects to explain the 100 point difference in OPS, Pete is the stronger hitter.
The fielding percentages between the two men are close. Kozma 948, Iorg 953.
Pete is a couple of years younger than Cale.
In a head to head matchup, Kozma is looking good.
On Ottavino v. Additon…there is not a scout on the planet that would agree with you, Jumbo.
Ottavino spent a lot of time harnessing his plus stuff (which is common with pitchers with plus stuff). He seems to have his hands around it now (assuming his shoulder is okay…of which I am skeptical).
Additon has significantly below average stuff. It is among the weakest I have ever seen in my 10+ years of watching Midwest League baseball. Based on his stats, I was expecting to be impressed – and I wasn’t. I was surprised, really.
How did he post solid numbers? Solid command and and effective, if weak, changeup. Nothing else.
He is the poster boy for succeeding in the lower levels on command alone.
Now, if you look at major league potential, today, Ottavino has the stuff to be an above average reliever (again, if healthy, and that might be better for his shoulder anyways). Additon, even as a lefty, does not.
You aren’t going to be an above average reliever – let alone decent LOOGY at all – with a straight-as-an-arrow 84 mph four seamer and a fringy change. Minorleaguesplits.com is down for updating at the moment but I don’t believe he is any more successful against lefties than he is against righties.
“In a head to head matchup, Kozma is looking good.”
What were there respective draft positions again?
Easton dismisses Additon with the opinion that “you can dominate in the lower levels by simply throwing strikes.”
Setting aside that throwing strikes is useful at any level of play, there may be a fallacy here. As a general rule, pitching becomes harder at higher rungs, for the common sense reason that ineffective hitters are weeded out. As a general rule, every pitcher is going to dominate at lower levels and suffer a rise in ERA, etc., at higher levels.
Consider Jaime Garcia, even though his numbers are likely distorted by a sore elbow. At low A, he had a whip of 1.09 and a 1 to 4 BB/K ratio. At high A, a whip of 1.29 and a still nice 1 to 3 BB/K ration. At AA, 3.75 ERA, WHIP of 1.34, BB/K ratio of about 1 to 2.5.
To sum up, there is nothing unexpected in Additon or any young pitcher encountering better hitters at AA than at low A. Its normal for pitchers to enjoy more success at low A than at AA.
Garcia had a WHIP of 1.34, Addition 1.38; same diff.
Additon’s BB/K ratio was 1 to 2, a little lower than Garcia.
Coming out of high schools, Garcia was a 30th rounder with the Orioles, Ottavino a 30th rounder, Additon a 47th rounder. All were well down in the draft, though Ottavino later went to college and enjoyed some success, so became a better bet and was selected at the end of the first round in 2006. This happens all the time, eg, Max Scherzer, drafted at a low round by the Cards back in 2003. Just like Ottavino, Additon’s pitching has improved since high school. He’s been doing a fine job in pro ball.
In 2007, the Tigers bonused Cale Iorg $1, 497, 500. In the same draft, the Cards signed Pete Kozma for $1, 395,000. Both short-stops, both swing right, both are now team-mates in Arizona.
Bonuses are important as indicators of how much teams value amateur talent.
It a nice coincidence it was the Tigers who selected Iorg, because some Kozma bashers may think the Tigers are geniuses for signing Rick Porcello in the same draft. It turns out, the Tigers too value the position of short-stop and spent a little more of their pizza money on one than did the Cards spend those Burger King bucks.
“Garcia had a WHIP of 1.34, Addition 1.38; same diff.
Additon’s BB/K ratio was 1 to 2, a little lower than Garcia.
Coming out of high schools, Garcia was a 30th rounder with the Orioles, Ottavino a 30th rounder, Additon a 47th rounder. All were well down in the draft, though Ottavino later went to college and enjoyed some success, so became a better bet and was selected at the end of the first round in 2006. This happens all the time, eg, Max Scherzer, drafted at a low round by the Cards back in 2003. Just like Ottavino, Additon’s pitching has improved since high school. He’s been doing a fine job in pro ball.”
>>Are you seriously comparing Additon to pitchers with plus stuff just because you found a few numbers that you think indicated he compares favorably?
Did you even consider that the other players overcame the upper level challenges because of the stuff they had/have that Additon does not?
“Ray Mileur used to love Additon”.
>>I used to love Additon too, based on the numbers.
But then I saw him in person.
How did he look to you, Jumbo?
“In 2007, the Tigers bonused Cale Iorg $1, 497, 500. In the same draft, the Cards signed Pete Kozma for $1, 395,000. Both short-stops, both swing right, both are now team-mates in Arizona.”
>>So, in other words, the Tigers signed Porcello and Kozma in the same draft? And they got a similar player to Kozma outside of the first round?
The money is relevant, certainly, but the Tigers decided to take advantage of soft-slotting and get both of them. That means they got more value our of their selections.
My issue with taking Kozma is not that he was a bad player. It was with the opportunity cost of not selecting someone else in that specific slot. After all, the Tigers proved that similar players could be picked up later in the draft.
I am not down on Pete at this point, either. I think he still has a shot to be solid player even he cleans up a few things – but those are not really the words one hopes to say about a former first rounder.
Easton, I remember when you believed the economic Recession would be trivial, because you are an economist. I may remember your loving Kenny Maiques, who flopped at Palm Beach, albeit possibly for drugs rather than arm. In other words, its good not to be overly certain about the future, because it has not unfolded yet and odd things can happen.
Baseball history includes plenty of lefty starting pitchers who do not throw hard. Jamie Moyer is a classic example. The Cards enjoyed John Tudor, the Dodgers Claude Osteen.
We agree about one thing. We are both suspicious of Ottavino’s shoulder, for the good reason a doctor wanted to operate. We also agree Ottavino should focus on relief. Thankfully, Additon does not have a shoulder problem yet. From his results, he seems a better pitcher than Ottavino, even before the latter suffered a sore wing. Additon is no Arnoldis Chapman, but he did not cost $30MM either and Chapman is only one injury away from having to rely on junk.
Who’s more promising? Kopp, who has had two operations? Or Additon, who has not needed one yet?
If Additon has no advantage matchup against left swinging hitters, then he may not have promise as a Loogy. If not, there is less chance another team would draft him and try to hide him in the bullpen for a year, as the Athletics once tried with Tyler Johnson despite an ERA at AA was above 5.
My bottom line is the Cards should weigh protecting Additon. They do not have a lot of southpaws. He may have higher ceiling than Kopp, Broderick, and Dickson, though Dickson has to be protected because already effective at AAA.
Evan MacLane would probably be a comp for Addition. And did you see how hard it was for Evan to get ML hitters out with his stuff?
If you want to bring up things said years ago, at least consider the context in which they were said. You were on the right track with Maiques. I did really like him…but I am not sure I could have seen the drug issue. Same with Herron (who I wasn’t in love with). Same with Garceau (who I was).
As for the recession, at the time, it wasn’t as bad as people were chirping. I would certainly not contest, at this point, several years later, that things changed. Although, I did not lose money in the stock market.
Anywho…
Kopp is far more promising. To me, promise describes a combination of upside and probability – not simply health.
And I don’t understand the relevance of the TJ info to your point. It more supports mine. LOOGYs might have poor overall numbers but show promise in their splits. Additon is the opposite of that.
I just don’t see how you can say he has a higher ceiling than basically any starter in our upper minors – and certainly not Kopp and, to a lesser degree, Broderick and Dickson.
If Additon does make it to the bigs, which I would bet against (not hope against, but bet against), it would be as a fringy 5th starter…and that seems so unlikely to me that it was difficult to write. He does not have the stuff to be better than that…and even that is HIGHLY unlikely. Kopp has the most “promise” of all of them, by a fair amount, like Ottavino, because he has the stuff to pitch potentially late innings out of the pen if his rotation days come to an end.
Exactly, RC. I have used that comp before – and I think MacLane has even more stuff than Additon.
Johnson could miss bats, striking out over a batter an inning in the minors – something Additon hasn’t done since rookie ball. He might get a way with that if he had low walk totals or kept the ball in the park; neither of which is the case.
Jumbo, I seem to remember you predicting depression as well – which also didnt happen.
Beau, Additon walked nearly as many as he K’d in his first AA stint. In his second, he decided he needed to get the ball over the plate and K’d twice as many as he walked (though not as good as Garcia’s worst half year at AA) but the result was he gave up 22 HR’s. Additon’s FIP in a year and a half of AA is over 4.92.
When he gets the ball over the plate in AA consistently without it flying out of the park he will become a prospect.
Carioca, the economic malaise is not over and Mr. Bernacke is trying to inflate away some debt, making many unsettled.
RC, the comp to MacLane may be good. MacLane has spent 5 years as a starting pitcher at AAA.
One difference of uncertain import: Additon is a little bigger, 6’5″ to MacLane’s 6’2″.
Additon is going to need to improve on his groundball rate. If he cannot, he is unlikely to reach the majors.
Be it noted, MacLane was on the 40 man roster for the Cards. If the issue is the 40 man roster, as it is, then MacLane-like Additon is not prima facie out of the running for elevation this month.
CC, I tried to help by deleting the posts where the above comment was misplaced. I accidentally deleted the wrong one, however, so I appended the words to your comment #74 above. Sorry.
C’mon, Jumbo. You are reaching again. MacLane was never protected by the Cards. He was added to the 40-man briefly during the season when they needed immediate help and dropped shortly thereafter.
It is tempting to develop a case why every eligible player should be protected. The reality of a limited roster requires those in the real world to make tradeoffs, however.
MacLane was a 4 or 5 year AAA starting pitcher when with the Cards, traded away by the Mets and Diamondbacks. He was not a likely candidate for elevation to the Cards 40 man, given this context. Additon being 22 or 23, may provide a bit more basis for roster protection.
During the fall of 2009, we added to the 40 man roster a fringy southpaw in his late 20s, Manning. He was a reliever cast-off by the last place Nationals; he had spent 08 on their ML roster and was not real good. We needed to stock up on fringy southpaws and later added Royce Ring to the 40 man roster (to help persuade him to sign, not because we adored him). In any event, both Manning and Royce spent 09 at Memphis.
What’s the moral of the story? Lefties are useful and sometimes we add some to the 40 man roster even if they are not Arnoldis Chapman wannabes.
Just to make sure the record is straight, Ring was removed from the 40-man by the end of spring training 2009 and Manning was taken off before Memorial Day. While the two did spend the entire 2009 season with Memphis, most if it was while they were OFF the roster. All that proves is that the Cardinals keep readily-available minor league lefties around. It has little or nothing to do with whether or not they protect Additon from the Rule 5 draft now.
So why does placing major league experienced on the 40 man roster have anything to do with placing a fringe minor league lefty who is most likely (at best) several years away from being major league ready on the 40 man roster ? The answer: It doesn’t. Jumbo continues to try to obfuscate the issues when he has a losing argument.
I would be shocked – absolutely shocked and worried about the sanity/ability of our front office – we protected Additon. I doubt he’s even in consideration. He likely (hopefully) wouldn’t make it past the first cut.
That doesn’t mean he can’t pitch or he has no shot or whatever. It just means that there is no reason to protect him. If someone took him – which would equally shock me – it would not be a loss for the organization.
Once upon a time, there were some lukewarm about Mitch Boggs. His fastball was circa 92, it was said, as a starter and his WHIP was too high (higher than Additon’s). Starters do not want to be max effort on every pitch, because they will have short careers.
Then Mitch went out to the AFL and threw for an inning at a time and cranked it up to 96 on a short basis. Keith Law reported he had a good arm and his stock went up.
Let us assume Nick Additon throws an 85 mph fastball. Who is to say Nick cannot throw a few 90 mph fastballs, if in the role of reliever? Why can Mitch crank it up a notch as a reliever, but not Nick?
The answer to Carioca’s question at 80: we knew Manning is mediocre when we added him to the 40 man. He got released by the then hapless Nats, for pete’s sake. But we wanted to add another lefty. Manning could not make the Cards and get sent down to Memphis. Additon is on the way up. He can pitch at Memphis next season, same as Manning did. There are not a lot of lefties on the Cards 40 man.
Here is another comp — Randy Flores. He spent about 5 years at AA/AAA with the Yankees, as a starter. Nowhere to go, given the pricey Yanks roster.
Randy finally earned his freedom and signed as a minor league free agent with the Cards. We made him pitch another year at AAA, then gave him a chance in 2005. Flores has now been a fringy ML reliever for 6 years, presumably earning some money and a retirement check after his playing days. Good for him.
If Additon keeps working at his craft, and if lucky enough to stay healthy, he could get lucky like Flores. I dont know if he needs to be protected yet and there may be advantage if he can pass through the Rule 5 draft this fall. But if the Cards were to protect him, it would not seem no-brainer wrong to do so.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/F/Randy-Flores.shtml
Boggs always had a solid fastball-breaking ball combination. He just gave up too many baserunners when starting. Like Ottavino, you could see success in short roles coming a mile away.
Neither compare to Addition, though. Boggs and Ottavino didn’t have to grow stuff to be successful. Additon would. Significantly.
And Flores? The Flores with a solid fastball and decent slurvy slider? Yeah, Additon is not that. And, again, I don’t have acceess to minorleaguesplits.com at the moment, but I would bet he did far better against lefties all along.
Keep grasping for straws. Maybe soon you’ll find one pitcher out of the thousands of possibilities that matches up with Additon.
Plus, I wouldn’t exactly be excited if Additon turned into Randy Flores. If that is his upside, that certainly doesn’t make him a prospect.
Easton, you still need to answer the question why Boggs can add mph as a reliever but Additon cannot do the same. Now I admit the question is not answerable as long as Nick is a starter, but its still not a bad question.
I kind of recall when Joe Magrane was coming out of college, scouts said he did not throw hard enough. There are always naysayers. The Cards drafted Magrane in the first round anyway and “tweaked” his delivery to add a few mph.
There have been plenty of lefties in the majors without plus velocity. Additon’s future may hinge on the quality and placement of breaking pitches.
“I would not exactly be excied if Additon turned into Randy Flores…that certainly does not make him a prospect.”
Randy Flores has spent years in the majors. This is simply history.
You may be falling into the perceptual pitfall of the 25 Musials and Gibsons. If somebody is not the next Pujols or Carlton, they are thus “not a prospect.”
Actually, if Additon became a Flores, he would have value to a ML team, as demonstrated by Flores. I am not sure Nick should be protected as yet, since Randy put in a lot of years at AA/AAA before he reached the majors, but I cannot agree Additon is “not a prospect.” He is around 23, has thrown 198 innings at AA already, competently, certainly better than Ottavino. It would seem premature to underestimate his future.
Jumbo wrote, “He is around 23, has thrown 198 innings at AA already, competently, certainly better than Ottavino. It would seem premature to underestimate his future.”
Jumbo, you are steadily comparing Nick with others, and my comment would be this….what dummy is responsible for placing Ottavino on the big league club while leaving Addition down in the minors if Addition is superior to Otto?
Who is responsible for this absolute talent evaluating snafu? Marty Mason.
There is no use, RC. But I am sure you know that.
There has never been anyone quite as talented as putting words into people’s mouths as our man Jumbo.
Even more unusual is his apparent need to store thoughts of others, probably in an Excel spreadsheet, sometimes for years, just so he can say “you once said this…” even though it is now years later.
RC, for those who do not know your sense of humor, Ottavino had two more years of amateur ball, so started 2007 at Palm Beach, while the younger Additon was still at Indian River State. Nick has been coming up, several rungs below Ottavino. When we compare them, at the same level and age, Additon during 2010 outpitched Ottavino at Springfield during 2008. Maybe in a couple of years, Additon too could be called up to start a game in the majors, as was Adam, owing to injuries.
“Randy Flores has spent years in the majors. This is simply history.”
>>And irrelevant, but yes, it is history. That’s nice. Having one person who you think is a little bit similar spending a few years in the majors doesn’t say anything.
“You may be falling into the perceptual pitfall of the 25 Musials and Gibsons. If somebody is not the next Pujols or Carlton, they are thus “not a prospect.””
>>How in the world do you come up with this garbage? You manage to be intentionally condescending even when you are the lone person defending your position. Not thinking Additon is a prospect does not mean, in any way, that I think all prospects must be stars. Just stop, please.
“Actually, if Additon became a Flores, he would have value to a ML team, as demonstrated by Flores”"
>>And this is something someone disputed? Where? I must have missed that.
Hey Jumbo…does Additon have “Major League arm strength”?
You know…I am not really sure why I started posting more over here. I avoided it to stay away from discussions like this.
Water off a ducks back Easton.
Ottavino is a better pitcher and has a brighter future – more “promise”, if you will.
Sorry.
Homework: Find one person (who has a clue) who agrees with you.
And my question was never answered…
What did he look like when you saw him, Jumbo?
After one substitute teaching job in college, I knew I could never be a Special Ed teacher. The people of that noble profession are far better than me.
I just want to know the relevance of comparing putting major league experienced pitcher’s (even if mediocre) on the roster has to do with protecting a guy from being chosen in the rule 5 draft who has struggled in a year and half of AA ball. Why protect a guy who wouldn’t get chosen, if chosen wouldn’t stick, and if stick’s wouldn’t be missed? If Additon is to have any success at the major league level he will need a couple of more years of minor league development so why would even someone who like Addition want to start his option clock and possibly stunt what little chance he might have?
I know what you are all thinking: how about Dave Lapoint? Good question.
Lapoint threw almost 1,500 innings in the majors. I doubt he was a flame-thrower. His Ks per 9 innings were under 5 for his career.
Here are his stats http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/L/Dave-LaPoint.shtml
Dave helped us win a World Series in 1982 and was in the rotation in 83/84. Whitey picked him up from the Brewers.
Lapoint slumped after leaving StL. We exhumed his career in 1987 at Louisville and the guy had a big back half of that season and 1988 with the White Sox.
If Additon works on improving his sinker and lowering his HR rate, he might become a new LaPoint.
The only way we will find this out is to play the games for a few years and find out. I like this kid, Additon. I am interested to see what kind of luck comes his way.
Easton, I’m glad to see you posting here more. My advice would be that you shouldn’t feel as though you always have to convince others to share or acknowledge your views. Posting can become less stressful that way.
Nutlaw, Westie has helpfully taught all of us about the mellowing value of “………………..”es. These little dots can be remarkably peaceful and soothing.
Another thing posters can do to try to calm the mood is to end each post with God Bless or Go Cards. These can be effective mechanisms for moderating the atmosphere.
Thanks, Nutlaw, but am not sure I can handle it for extended periods. I am not wired the right way, I guess.
“Why protect a guy who wouldn’t get chosen, if chosen wouldn’t stick, and if stick’s wouldn’t be missed?”
This point deserves to be repeated (in bold italics, if it were possible).
Simple enough, really.
Apparently, titanium is being trumped by holograms. CNBC is so impressed, they call Power Balance the Sports Product of the Year. Amazing.