Performance of his relief pitchers was not the reason the St. Louis Cardinals fired bullpen coach Marty Mason.
A typical knee-jerk reaction to the news of the dismissal of St. Louis Cardinals bullpen coach Marty Mason was a message board post at The Cardinal Nation that said this:
“Considering how many games the bullpen blew this year, that doesn’t surprise me.”
That seemed off base to me. Given the myriad of problems of the underachieving 2010 club, such as poor baserunning, sloppy defense, lack of timely hitting and so on, the relief corps had not often come up as a problem during the season.
I decided to pull out the numbers from recent seasons to see what they had to say about Mason’s charges in 2010.
While bullpen meltdown games are often notable, especially the July 6 loss in Colorado in which the relievers coughed up a six-run lead while yielding nine runs in the ninth inning, they were relatively few and far between.
In fact, the pen had a better save conversion percentage in 2010 than in either of the previous two seasons, showing improvement for the second consecutive year. The problem was not theirs, considerably fewer opportunities presented them, down to 42 from 73 just two years prior.
St. Louis Cardinals, relievers, 2008-2010
| Pen | Saves | Opps | Save % |
| 2010 | 32 | 42 | 76.2% |
| 2009 | 43 | 58 | 74.1% |
| 2008 | 42 | 73 | 57.5% |
In terms of innings pitched, despite the starters generally having a good season, the relievers were called upon to pitch 25 2/3 more innings in 2010 compared to 2009, but the total was less than in 2008. To put that into context, in 2009, the Cardinals tossed the fewest relief innings in the National League (16th of 16), and still pitched the fourth-fewest this past season.
Won-loss record is included for completeness, but seems a more random stat, in my opinion.
The Cardinals bullpen ERA was up ever so slightly, by 0.06 year-to-year, and from fourth-lowest to sixth-lowest in the NL. Each of the last two seasons was considerably better than 2008 despite the Cardinals having a younger crew overall.
| Pen | IP | NL Rank | W | L | % | ERA | NL Rank |
| 2010 | 462 2/3 | 13th | 18 | 20 | 0.474 | 3.73 | 6th |
| 2009 | 437 | 16th | 22 | 18 | 0.550 | 3.67 | 4th |
| 2008 | 499 | 10th | 22 | 31 | 0.415 | 4.20 | 11th |
The next table includes home runs, walks, strikeouts and opponent batting average. What is especially notable to me is the considerable drop in free passes issued for the second consecutive year. That continued a positive trend in terms of strikeout-to-walk ratio, to the point the pen in aggregate had a solid 2:1 distribution in 2010.
| Pen | HR | BB | K | K:BB | OBA |
| 2010 | 48 | 169 | 346 | 2.0 | 0.250 |
| 2009 | 43 | 194 | 340 | 1.8 | 0.238 |
| 2008 | 53 | 230 | 381 | 1.7 | 0.264 |
The relief corps did have a couple of areas which could use improvement. In 2010, they did not do as good of a job retiring their first batter faced as in recent seasons. The relievers also allowed a higher rate of inherited runners to score, crossing the 30 percent mark.
| Pen | 1st Btr Ret | 1st Btr | % | Inh Rnr Score | IR | % |
| 2010 | 304 | 455 | 66.8% | 65 | 204 | 31.9% |
| 2009 | 338 | 474 | 71.3% | 56 | 242 | 23.1% |
| 2008 | 331 | 491 | 67.4% | 67 | 228 | 29.4% |
As has been made clear since the initial announcement, Mason’s firing was due to off-field issues, specifically criticism of the organization’s player development processes, not the performance of the Cardinals relief pitchers. It should not have been numbers-related, as they back up my initial impression that the bullpenners did a pretty good job overall in 2010.
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Boggs, McClellan, Hawksworth, Motte, and Salas were relievers during the 2010 season, all signed from amateur ranks and developed by the Cards. Unless Marty Mason thinks he fully taught these guys how to pitch, either these pitchers or minor league coaches deserve some credit too.
you would get a lot of national hits Brian if you would do a short history on the many uses of the term “money ball”. Locally too I’m sure. Or does that create problems for you?
I’m not sure the bullpen record is a good way to evaluate a bullpen coach. My guess is he works a lot with the starters also during their bullpen sessions and that may even include pre-game when they pitch as well as off day throwing.
LaRussa’s praise of Marty as a “competent professional” seems about as weak of praise as you can give.
There are no obvious quantitative measures of a bullpen coach. I felt these were the best we have. As I said above, I entered this by trying to verify/refute a poster’s view that Mason was accountable for the bullpen supposedly blowing so many games in 2010.
La Russa can’t say much of anything. He kept Mason on his staff for years, so his past actions spoke louder than his carefully-chosen words after his boss not only announced the firing, but made it very clear why he did it.
WC, I am not sure what you mean about money ball.
Its seems likely neither TLR nor Mason has much idea what Moneyball means. This would not be surprising, since they are uniformed on-field employees, not front office guys. (Even if they read the book Moneyball, its excusable not to know what the term means, because the author himself did not understand it, so how could readers?) To Mason, Moneyball may be what he believes brought Jeff Luhnow to the Cards and resulted in inconvenient questions about sacrosanct traditions.
Tony is using it in today’s article………….he is doing it for a reason. Be the one that understands its special connotation here.
Dave/Mason’s whole disciple was predicated on the value of recognizing correct mechanics and the observation and maintenance of those points under physical and emotional duress. Don’t you recall all the starters observing each others bull pens? It was part of the cohesiveness of the rotation. The pecking order………………………Masons firing has nothing to do with baseball.
Jumbo……….your statements show me that you are in a clear state. Tony was being facetious. Tune in.
It sure looks like from time to time that If you dig deep enough into the cardinals organization it would seem one would surely find a hamster running like hell inside one of those little wheels allowing this organization to function.
You would know that but for the absolute ridiculous lack of communication between anybody who works for them. The left hand has no clue what the right hand is doing and the fact of the matter is the right hand has been trying to cut the left hand off for the last 5 years just for spite.
I guess that is what Tony is constantly meaning when he says “the cardinal way”.
When Tony says moneyball he means ……….CHEAP.
Streamlining the use of statistical criteria and investment potential + market value for determining the most cost efficient (profitable) baseball product. DeWitt wanted to shelter allot of his cash in the stadium and ball park village….he did…………… He made the move when he took over the team in 2007.
If you knew the cash flow complexities of what he’s done…….you would squat. That is money ball.
As it applies to our current situation………..
Money ball doesn’t rely on the highly evolved, intuitive discrimination’s, made by “old timers”. It seeks a standardized approach to mechanics as they relate to current (and popular) targeting and analytic projections concerning strike zone location and speed change.
To make a long story short…………..everything that’s going on is BS. BD is changing the guard, killing baseball in the process. ……………… PT Barnum doesn’t care what the elephant does, his only concern is how much it eats………………………. you conservative traditionalist should be carrying torches………….
RC, I don’t blame you for wanting more for your son. What ever your motivations………..your aspirations are correct and sincere.
AP fans…………..how do you think this will play out???????? I’m not, so its just another day in Hooterville.
When TLR says moneyball, he probably means management consultants asking baseball managers and coaches why they do this or why they do that. Sometimes there are sensible answers available while other times the reason has to be tradition or belief, perhaps right or wrong, because there is not unambiguous evidence one way or the other. Long-time baseball guys may not like a management consultant asking questions and altering the business model to which they have become accustomed. So they brand him an outsider, not one of them, a threat, the moneyballer. They could start to imagine minor league pitchers not being taught the right way, even though many of the minor league pitching instructors have worked for the Cards for a long time. Mo decided this outlook was divisive and non-constructive.
As regards minor league development, the Card have now promoted John Vuch. He has been with the team for decades, working with many executives and on field personnel. If there are coordination problems, Vuch should be well suited to iron them out. Moving out Mason may have been regarded as one step in improving collegiality among pitching coaches within the organization.
Another Westy Anti -BD rant.What a surprise.WC you sure like to rattle on.
I’m going to add a thought. A clarification of my sentiments.
I don’t really care for Tony. I respect him. Its hard to argue with Dave. His results are superior. They do not always work, but that is the nature things. Quality has a flow and a direction in a field of possibilities……………
Albert Pujols has become something I dislike. Were I his coach, I would change things. I have problems with Molina in relationship to AP. I would handle him differently as an athlete. His physical disabilities are emotionally self imposed. To me he is the gifted of all the brothers, but none the less, if I had to pick one today, Yadi wouldn’t be the first.
At this point I am struggling to be a Cardinal fan. I feel like I’ve pretty much described where we have been heading for quite awhile. We are there now. I can’t help but notice that this group is not what I would call progressive. There are many issues here beyond Jumbo’s field of interest/need. I see his point. I could easily argue his points for there merit.
The issue concerns the predictive nature of my “speculations”. BD is not my father. He might have been if he had lived beyond the age of 49. The lack of interest in the foundations for our current quagmire of changes are a problem for me here. I will attempt to create an analogy here hoping to make a point.
Changed my mind. You’re not ready, as am I. I will post the above because I wanted to say it.
Thanks 52………….it appears I was writing it while while you were thinking it. Notice I stopped pretty much when you posted………………its where we’re at I think.
Dave will not be here forever, so it would be prudent to move a guy into the pen coach job that is seen as a possible successor. If Marty wasn’t going to be it, then it was time to go.
Tony’s use of ‘moneyball’ was a surprise. Just in general, I think of the divide between the old school cigar chompers and the bespectacled wonks. Just as in politics, there will be party line hacks who cannot accept that the other side has anything of value to bring to the table. That can be an impediment to progress.
Westie, its a very fine thing that you play classical guitar. Lets appreciate good things in life. This is a skill and gift that you have cultivated.
You admit to disliking Pujols, no surprise to me. When you testify to struggling with your Cardsfandom, this makes sense. Its pretty hard to reconcile dislike of Albert with liking the Cards. I can see how this would be a struggle. As I understand it, you got booted off some other boards for saying things that must have struck others as a bit too provocative.
Around this board, its generally not repressive. While IMHO you are a bit nutty, I dont expect musicians to know everything about life and nutty does not bother me. If every one’s opinion had to be perfect, then no one could post here.
Your psychological musings about what players are thinking seem unlikely, but I personally am not averse to them, since I do not read them. I like the “……………..” which seem like musical pauses. I find them peaceful.
Some people dislike DeWitt, since they conceive of him as some old Scrooge who they hate because if only he would spend some of his ill-gotten loot, then the world would be happier or so they hope. You have plenty of company in this line of thinking.
So if you are a Cards fan or a baseball fan, that’s pretty much up to you. In life, enthusiasms wax and wane, life entails change, unless you get stuck in a Cards rut, like JS.
Thanks Jumbo…………………………………I needed that…………………………. insightful as always.
“Albert Pujols has become something I dislike. Were I his coach, I would change things.”
Around this board, its generally not repressive.????????????????????????
Just out of curiousity WC, what is the “something” that Albert has become? And what physical disabilities of Yadi’s are you referring to? Be a little more specific please.
Westy have you considered a short break? Sit back relax and take a new look after a couple of weeks and see if your thoughts are the different.IMO if you are struggling to be a fan then its time for a break.I am a fan of the team………………not just a player.
If Albert leaves i will still be a fan.The logo on the front means more than the name on the back of the uniform.
Those are fair questions Crd……………..I must also say that a straight forward answer on the first could move us to Def-Con 4 before the appropriate time.so I must decline.
The second however isn’t really a problem……….. Having grown up in a family of 4 brothers, all athletes of Merritt and enshrined in the local sports HoF, there is a tendency to be imitative, and competitive to say the least………… I was number 3. I pitched on my older brothers Varsity high school baseball team as a freshman. My little brother made the team as a freshman my Jr year. Brother number 2 was the first ever to be selected as a freshman…………All starting on the Varsity football team as Sophomores. Brothers 4 and 3 lettered in 4 sports adding basketball and track to the expected………………… unusual????????? I think so. To the point……
Molina is one of 3 brothers if I recall. All catchers. Benji and Jose are a little heavier, a little stockier………..a little slower than Yadi. In the world tourney, Yadi road the pine most often, being the least talented amongst the team choices which I think included one of the brothers. He came back a very different hitter, better suited to creating opportunity down in the order. He went to school…..he knew his place there……his role………………… Sometimes the peer group (family group) has boundaries, imitative behavioral characteristics, that create a very powerful identifier for a competitive family amongst other families and competitive sub groups. They stick together. They become very careful not to show up their siblings, conformity becoming a powerful emotional force……………..for good……….in some cases not……….
Bottom line…………… Yadi can run……I’ve seen it………better than his brothers…. The election to do so becomes an emotion issue. The body image preparations needed to do so becomes very “evasive”………..emotionally hard to initiate. Being able to run, and having the privilege to not run, with precedent and excuses from your surrogate big brother (AP) effects his entire competitive self image…………… the privilege to jog out a ground ball, in the competitive environment that he was raised in is a huge honor…………showing that territorial dominance in a team environment is hard to get away with…………….without causing problems that is. You must have or share consent with your peer group. …..These stress on the team are what RC refers to on occasion……………………
In closing……….Yadi, like Albert, spend a lot of time seeking comfort in expressing their perceived cultural dominance displays. They both need more rest. More stretching and muscle preparation………………….. and my boot print on their bottom sides when they don’t run out the fruits of their massive ego displays involving pitch selection and pitch targeting, and situational responsibility.
I have avoided the some of the physiologic explanations. So he squat’s allot……more rest and more preparation before each at bat……………..get a credible back up god sakes. The team needs a leader, not another wounded hero playing on our sympathies.
Sage advice 52……………..
Recalling great thoughts from Westie…….
Westie, you are sound on the topic of muscle helpers, understanding competitive players trying to improve their bodies in the absence of testing. You are not a jihadist when it comes to Bonds, McGwire, and the hundreds of others in baseball and other sports. Good job.
WC–Thanks for the response on your Yadi comment. I’m not buying into it, but thanks for your input.
Shocker alert………….St. Louis is not in the top group of most desired places to play for Major Leaguers.
http://157.166.224.105/vault/article/magazine/MAG1175379/index.htm
You’re welcome Crd…………Its not for sale though…………..its just the way it is. An analogy with so many complex variables was challenging for me. Possible you can write down what you actually are purchasing. That is the theme here. Make it predictive and we’ll both wait for the flowers to bloom over it.
And its getting better all the time RC. There is open warfare. If BD tries to take AP into the FA market of 2011 without a contract…………unless we are spanking butts, Tony never finishes the season. He will take the firing as advertisement for another job……………..BD know this……….he ‘s got something going on.
WC, IMO when The Cards didn’t trade Albert for a mother load of players, which they most certainly could have got, they made their bed with Albert. They must sign him at whatever coast or get two measly draft picks, which would be a colossal blunder.
Unless the Cards are willing to raise payroll Albert will be fun for the fans to watch but the team may not sniff the World Series again for the duration of his contract. The Reds are the better and younger imo, and may be hard to beat for the next few years plus you have Walt over there with a chip on his shoulder concerning the Cardinals. The Cards may very well have a battle on their hands with the reds and the Wild Card will most likely never come from the Central so its winner makes the playoffs and losers go home and wait on the MVP and Cy Young vote.
But the Cards will always be competitive in this division and that combined with Albert should keep the attendance total around the 3 million mark so everyone should stay happy.
And Tony will manage at least the next two years and then find his way back to the Bay…………2nd place secured for all time. Never reaching the playoffs in his last 3 years.
Ref RC comment #25. The only surprise on the most desired team list is Atlanta. Three of the five are the teams with the top three payrolls in MLB and the other is #8. Gee, I would like to play on a team where they spend the most money on players. What a revelation that is! The Cubs being on the top five list shows where the players’ priority is – not playing championship baseball.
Ref RC comment #28. No need to play the games since the outcome of the next few seasons has been pre-determined. Heading to Vegas to put some money down….
Best hot dogs in the Major Leagues at Wrigley………..enough said.
On your second point I’ll be willing to put my money where my mouth is………..I’m always out to make a nice winning bet with fans who think with their hearts.
I’m loving the intensity of the playoffs. Good baseball. RC, DeWitt is developing so many options,it looks like the 3 stooges in one of those hallway with 10 doors skits. With a gorilla.
Rarely have I seen so much animosity toward a coach……….who was then rehired, and then pissed off……………… DeWitt isn’t going to spend any money………..he has the goat chained already.
MM has developed an out………..or had one created for him…………..that’s going to be a good tell on what Tony’s perspective is. Lozano may have an attitude, whose nose……………….
Where were you before I lost my job RC? I could have used your clairvoyant powers.
A fan who doesn’t think with their heart is not a true fan. Not in my book.
Cox looks like he couldn’t hit a ball off a tee in Arizona. I can’t find out anything about how he looks defensively at third. Any first hand info on that?
I haven’t heard bb, but will be heading down there in about ten days.
Bernie is back in action, spewing out melodramatic soap opera. http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bernie-miklasz/article_62b1fff1-21c4-57fc-a14d-211ee28d580f.html
Bernie dredges up the dreaded concept of Moneyball leading to Luhnow leading to the eviction of Walt and real baseball men, now including Mason. The word Moneyball is code for something Bernie and others do not understand. Its a vague word that old school guys use as code for something new and different, hence it evokes fear.
The Cards are a business. Its not a surprise that owners (and fans) would like a scouting and development system that produces useful rookies. Who on earth would be opposed to this, other than Bernie?
DeWitt hired Luhnow because the Cards were getting killed in terms of poor international recruiting. The Cards were competing for last place in terms of producing ML candidates from the Dominican, Venezuela, and elsewhere around Latin America. Luhnow speaks Spanish. He also has an MBA and also has not spent years playing or coaching baseball. DeWitt did not have faith in Walt to improve this situation, so he brought in his own guy and put him in charge of amateur scouting, both international and US. DeWitt first removed Manno from player development and long-time scouting expert Marty Meier. When Walt was uncooperative, he had to be evicted too; it was basically his choice. Walt had a cadre of former GMs from other teams as advisors, like Jerry Walker and Cam Bonifay and they chose to leave, not surprising, with their friend and sponsor gone. Mark Riggans a long time minor league pitching coach decamped to the Cubs. A minor league coach Gene Tenace was fired, since he had a lousy attitude about any changes to traditional ways of developing players.
Apparently Mason did not understand that Dewitt wants employees like bullpen coaches to support the company, not bellyache or bad-mouth others. Even after the big upheaval of Walt’s departure, this lesson had not sunk in, for Mason. And it now seems for Bernie. DeWitt wanted to improve the scouting and development process, try new ideas, invest more money in international bonuses, add a Gulf Coast League rung for younger athletes. If Mason does not want to support this program and disrespects minor league coaching, he can look for a job elsewhere. This is a message not just to Mason, but to those who continue to work for the Cards, including TLR.
Bernie also says the job of hitting coach is not worth the bother, so he thinks McGwire should not return. Bernie is a columnist and wants to be provocative.
Earlier McGwire talked about how much he loved the job and wanted to return. What else could he say? TLR stuck his neck out for McGwire, taking a lot of flak. Mo and DeWitt did the same, hiring a PR guy to orchestrate his return to uniform. Is McGwire going to say: oh, I hate this job, after MLB goes to so much bother on his behalf? That would not be loyal to the Cards or his friend TLR. So McGwire was real positive about returning for 2011.
However, the triplets could provide a wonderful way out, if McGwire prefers a graceful exit. There are a lot of Pampers to change and Daddy needs to do his fair share.
Its hard to say what Mark will do. I’d rather teach hitting than change diapers, so he has to weigh these choices carefully.
Bernies full of more crap than a christmas turkey.
Are people really getting bent out of shape because Cox is having a rough start? Give the kid some time.
You seem to know allot about this Jumbo…………..Luhnow/Mo/Bd against the world……………..oh yeah, and Jumbo. The integrity of many men, most ex-players, struggling in a system dominated by special interests……………..up against a man who thinks his son is a buffoon, and intends on leaving him a risk free/ integrity free, self cleaning “circus……with elephants on a diet”.
I back you all the way Jumbo…………….. have you enjoyed the playoffs……….. SF has done this with mirrors……and miracles. Look at their lineup and explain how money ball works. Do the Phillies while your at it………….Oh yeah, and the Yankees…………..Texas?
You guys should really market this stuff on TV. It would be better than any reality show I’ve seen.
Jumbo is in therapy Crd……………..it can messy.
Miles, Wynn, Lopez, Feliz, MacDougal, Westbrooke for Ludwick…………….. all within the parameters of money ball……………………………………………………………………………….I mean…….”my money ball”……..
Jumbo was Westie’s second worst nightmare a couple of weeks ago. Now that he’s saying things Westie agrees with, he’s a great guy. I love consistency.
RC, I’ll take your bet and no one has ever accused me of thinking with my heart (or even having one).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moneyball
Reading this can’t hurt………….. add in these abstract concepts………… Steroids/Revenue sharing.
This is a volatile mix…………………but it has little bearing with the Cardinal situation. It has become an excuse to achieve quite a different set of “objectives”.
You have certainly achieved consistency Brazil……………..I love you.
A guy who knows how to play Moneyball is Billie Beane. He has the cheaper entry in a battle for SF Bay area fans. To compete, Billie corrals a journalist and appeals to his wish to write a best selling book so the journalist can make moola. Is a journalist going to want to write a story reporting the Oakland As are screwed up? Who would buy such a book?
No, the journalist wants to use his access to tell a fable about how the As are smarter than other teams. This helps the writer make money and it is free advertising for the As and helps them compete for Bay area fans.
In reality, the most interesting thing about the As draft discussed in the book is the team was too impoverished to give a normal bonus to all high draft picks. So they filled two high picks with mediocre amateurs and made up stories for the author about why these guys were actually good choices, based on their collegiate stats. This appealed to readers who value statistics. Some of the As employees went to Ivy League colleges, so the book argues the As are the smart guys (though there is no information presented about the other 29 teams, for comparison). Moneyball the book is a nice story, without a lot of substance.
MLB veterans are suspicious of college guys, like Paul DePodesta then with the As or Theo Epstein with the Red Sox, because they become GMs, even though they have never played MLB, but get to boss around the baseball vets. The baseball men must call these college educated executives, like Luhnow, Moneyballers.
Bw, you are correct, Bernie is a character. He spews out enough words that sometimes he offers good ideas, amid the other ones.
P-D reporters are going to suck up to guys who work for the Cards, Mo, DeWitt, Tony, and anyone else they can lasso as sources. They want to write entertaining stuff, including speculation or gossip, to titillate and inform the fans. Reporters can claim there is tension between executives (who play with the money) and guys in uniform (who play the game on the field). Its a social class difference, moneyballing business executives versus players, suits versus uniforms.
Alright CC, what is the bet? That the Cardinals won’t make the playoffs for the next 3 years? And my initial post stated that with a raise in payroll that was the case. I stand by that and I’ll give you 100 million dollars as a number that I consider not raising payroll.
You name the stakes CC.
In all seriousness, 2011 will be the last hurrah I would guess with Carp, as he appears to me to be on the downhill side of dominant. The Cards are I would guess gonna go at it with Freese at 3b, Brendan at Short, and Skip at second again. a platoon of Jay and Craig in RF, and Pagnozzi at backup catcher. A pitching staff of Carp, Waino, Garcia, Lohse, and Westbrook/McClellen. Got to add a lefty reliever and a righty reliever to replace McClellan. Alberts a given, as is Holliday and Molina.
Is this what everyone believes will be the starting team, minus some minor moves as far as the bench goes?
No, I don’t think that Freese will be starting for the team nor do I think that Skip will be starting either.
And Colby will be…………?
Your are right on it RC……………. and that lineup can’t win it. Reds made a little money. They will improve cutting lose the “fat”. Votto is stabilizing. Bruce is just starting to develop an appetite. I don’t see us as 2nd next year. Carp and Waino both hit the wall…………..with a flying start. They will be starting next year in harness, waring wall for a hat.
Nut, if you think that the front office knows what its doing, and they do. Why is it that you see any changes ahead. Does it seem like they are trying to appease anyone? It has nothing to do with baseball. Freeze is certainly no less appealing this year than last. He was hurt and drunk…….this year………who know………………..the Lopez signing late, was the spare tire that got us deep into the season……before it blew out.
Well Crdswmn, My guess is somewhere else. If not Tony better sure take a different approach or he’ll have his hands full. Once those easy going types have had enough, they’ve had enough.
Clearly WC, The Reds have the better TEAM going into 2011. The only position as far as position players go where the Cards are better than the Reds is in LF. I like Waino better than any pitcher the Reds have but after that I believe the Reds have a clearly better rotation.
Nut, I’d like to hear who you predict as replacements for Freese and Skip. There is no way Skip is not going to be starting for the Cards if he is on the roster and Tony is the manager. No way.
Skip is the Hemlock, RC………….. Tony is here as a diversion…………a weakness in the AP armor….just like his National award in Washington………….BD is the player here. He tempts Albert with a low pressure career on an underachieving team………..tears and records aplenty. Sympathy and Narcissism…………..oh what pleasant company………
“Come one…….Come all……….see the greatest player in baseball.”
How about this angle…………..the Comish and the baseball cronies have agreed that Pujols must stay in ST Louis……….they’ve allotted a large amount of money via Fox Sports Broadcasting rights, and BD is just playing this game to see how much of it he can keep for himself…………………..I’m watching that one.
RC: “There is no way Skip is not going to be starting for the Cards if he is on the roster and Tony is the manager.”
Everybody knows that, including Mo. Mo has proven that he can and will offload underachievers who would otherwise continue getting trotted out there. Tony will argue Skip will be a usefull fifth outfielder/ emergency 2B, LH bat off the bench, etc., all the while returning to .300 form. No way Mo buys that. He’s learned. Besides, Tony would be forced to admit that defense up the middle is key, and Skip obviously is not going to grow into that guy.
As to Cox, when the Cards think they have a legit MLB 3B prospect, I take it with a grain of salt. Can he hit anything above A pitching? Can he field better than, say, Wallace? There is no way to know, and I see no good reason to take the organization’s word for it. I will be interested in Brian’s reports.
You’re getting to close for comfort Westy. Beware the black choppers on a moonless night. Suits don’t play nice.
WC, I will agree on the point that Albert on the team puts butts in the seats, and dollars in the pot. People will disagree but if Mo/BD wanted to put the best team on the field Albert would be playing somewhere else and with that trade the cardinals would have added 3 or 4 guys and had a better chance at winning the WS. Would that have been a tough trade to make? Surely but if winning was the goal, it should have been a no brainer.
Now if Albert doesn’t sign, then you have fugged up severely.
Albert and his agent know this now and can and should make BD pay out the butt now to keep him. And BD will pay to make sure that people don’t say that BD/Mo make a huge mistake by not trading him when they could get the mother load for him without extending him. Now Albert sits in the cat bird seat and will wait it out and break the bank. In breaking the bank the Cardinals are surely destined to not be on top unless BD agrees to take on added payroll. Adding payroll may or not happen….tbc.
I believe you have said WC, that Albert surely wants to win so he will bolt to a winning program(Yankees, Red Sox etc. I would say that Albert wants to put up his numbers first and win second. No way Albert leaves St. Louis…..He puts up his numbers and is a hero…the team loses…… its not his fault. Why would you leave that situation? Yep, Albert should set a new mark in terms of salary when he signs, and he should, he has made peanuts for his record breaking numbers and needs to get paid. But leave?…….BD can’t allow that to happen and Albert doesn’t want to go so the negotiations should mirror the Holliday negotiations with the Cardinals bidding against themselves to make sure Albert retires a Cardinals.
If Albert continues to put up the numbers he has put up these last 10 years what does that mean……team wise? Nothing because it is evident that Albert can set record after record and the team can’t overcome the other holes in the lineup.
So its a new year with the same cast of characters. I ask you this…..can Albert do any better? How about Holliday? Do we expect Waino to be better next year than this one? Can Jaime get much better? Do we expect Carp’s stuff to stay the same or will he slip more next year?
My answers are…No….No….Nope….Probably not…..Probably slip as his HR rate rose exponentially this year as opposed to last and he’s on the wrong side of his career. And if everyone of those players maintain their numbers in 2011, is that enough to win next year? Maybe…maybe not.
All essentially true RC……………… there appears to new variable at this point…. that being a collusion outside the framework of a single interest. The money to Texas had little to do with market control or competition with Comcast. ………… the new Ranger ownership knew that money was coming to them when they were in the bidding process. Baseball scared away the Mavericks owner who had a higher bid…………………. Baseball does not want to see another A-Rod contract. They may go 6/180, but they aren’t going 8/240…………… Dewitt will set a new record for deferred payments, 5/7 million a year interest free……………..
To be honest, I think teams pitching to Pujols this year wouldn’t be in a hurry to carry the rest of his baggage………………….. His miraculous turn around on July 30th was fun, but it took the team out of its stride……………… when scouts adapted, he went dry again and the team was finished and could no longer respond…………………..
And no………I said in this thread that he would probably opt for the cream on the cow pie….. The man is filled with fear, as his religion and self image morph………..its a common malady for people in the spotlight.
As I watch these wonderful games………I recognize that the Cardinals are in real trouble. We suck at the plate………we really can’t run……..etc, etc………….DeWitt is on course…….I hope someone airs the Westbrook numbers.
I am going to keep this thread so I can keep coming back for a pick me up in the future
Or to gloat if everyone is wrong. 
Whatever.
crdswmn, you will be able to gloat. Lots of negative ideas offered, one-sided and head-strong.
Can the 2011 Cards improve on 2010? Of course.
Its likely Ryan will hit .270+. His wrist operation last spring likely explains a down year. The Cards also have depth at SS, with Greene in reserve.
Schumaker also dipped offensively. He may rebound to 2009 levels. But if he does not, by mid-season Descalso should be ready to compete for the 2B job.
Lohse got hit with a pitch in May 2009 and has struggled as a result. He had an operation and is working his way back. There is no reason Lohse should not rebound to 2008 form and this would give a nice lift.
The Cards will look to sign a veteran starting pitcher. They are talking to Westbrook. If this does not pan out, they will find someone else.
They will sign an experienced catcher.
And another LOOGY to backfill Reyes.
One or two more additions will be important. They need a 3rd baseman and this may require a trade. And they could use a left swinging veteran RF, such as Hermida, Hawpe, or Ankiel.
Jon Jay can replace Randy Winn. Aaron Miles will not be back. Stavinoha should play in Asia. Felipe is already gone.
If there are pitching injuries, Dickson, Lynn, and Walters are stashed at AAA to backfill.
Well Jumbo, Like I have stated earlier, I am a staunch Republican so I believe in capitalism and I believe BD has every right to make money by the billions if he can do it. And I believe he does an excellent job of putting a competitive team on the field while making pretty good money. So I’m never gonna be getting into a tirade about BD and George W Bush making millions off of unsuspecting hacks and pocketing this and swindling that. Because it really makes me no nevermind. Now WC will give you a conspiracy theory with the Republicans as the villains, with BD at the head of the spear………..but I won’t cause I really don’t care. But does BD go all out to win? Well thats an easy NO. If he did we would have seen a Cody Ross or a Pat Burrell on the team instead of who we had. But it makes me no nevermind to tell you the truth but I can see things for what the appear to be, not what I want them to be.
But its hard to list the facts in regards to the cardinals and their decision making on roster moves, pickups, trades, lack of trades, and the like and not come to a similar conclusion that I’ve come to. I would enjoy a logical rebuttal from somebody with an alternate opinion to counter my negative ideas, one-sided and head-strong as they may appear.
But I can tell you this from sitting where I sit and knowing what I know….the fan knows what the cardinals want them to know, and that very rarely includes much of the truth. And what I find amusing is that the large majority of cardinals fans believe what they are told, because they believe the cardinals to be honest and wholesome.
While the truth from my seat is that the cardinals are a really big business where the public relations aspect of the business is filled with the same thing as big politics………keeping the public happy and allowing them to know what you want them to know. Which is all rose colored and sweet smelling.
The truth is never important its what is perceived to be the truth that matters most.
Jumbo, You make excellent points with your hopes for improvement to last years team……………that the 2011 Cardinals are gonna have to count on Brendan and Skip to have bigger years. And if Skip flounders, that Descalso will be called on the save the day.
The cards are counting on a Lohse comeback as well.
Also signing Westbrook or a veteran pitcher ala Suppan. Westbrook was with the Cardinals down the stretch and as good as he was didn’t make a difference in wins.
Lefty specialist.
Need a 3B, and you point out that they may have to make a trade to fill this spot……….Who, pray tell are the cards gonna trade to get a good 3B without opening up another area on the team?
Jeremy, Brad, or Rick as a veteran RF? If Rick is on this team he will be like Skip………..in the lineup every day. The other two guys…………..meh.
So after reading all of your reasons for being optimistic about 2011 forgive me if I chuckle a little bit. You have basically added nothing offensively but are hopeful of a couple of rebound seasons by your SS and 2B, neither of which will provide any power to the lineup. And on top of that you are presuming that your pitching staff will be as good as last year, when they were really excellent. And you don’t think that that view is a bit rose colored? You appear to be George Clooney starring in the “Perfect Storm”.
RCW, the suggestions about Cody Ross or Pat Burrell are not persusaive……..
Pat Burrell was let go by your beloved Joe Madden early in 2010. The low budget Rays ate $9MM to get rid of him. The Rays must have been pretty fed up. Burrell was then a free agent, free to choose where to sign. The Giants took a chance and Burrell chose them, and things worked out for both sides. Good for them. The Giants spent big on Mark DeRosa, but he was unable to play in 2010, so sometimes gambles do not pan out.
Ross was waivered by the Marlins. IIRC, the sequence for waiver claims is last year’s standing. Because the Cards did a little better than the Giants in 2009, the Giants were able to lay priority claim to Ross. The Cards did add Westbrook, twice the salary of Ludwick. They might well have added Ross, had the opportunity been there. Its something we do not know. But the Cards are not a cheap team, shelling out big bucks for Holliday, Carp, Albert, Westbrook, Penny, Lohse, etc.
RCW
And most big business have PR departments don`t they? Or media spokepeople.RCW you bact like the Cards are the only team engaging in the practice of sugarcoating things.
The Cardinals lie. Tell me something I don’t know. Where a lot of money is involved there is no such thing as honesty. But, money wants to make more money. Putting a losing team on the field ain’t going to make more money. If BD wants to keep his 3million+ fans coming through the gates, opening up the wallet would be a wise move. Cardinal fans are loyal, but a few more seasons like 2010 and BD can kiss his sold out crowds goodbye.
Ryan Ludwick’s brother used to pitch for the Cards. And he used to post at the Birdhouse. He was a fan favorite and deserved to be. Cheered for his younger brother’s success, after Ryan finally got a chance to succeed in the majors. It was nice. No doubting the owner, manager, or declaring things hopeless for next year, when the games have not even been played yet. The Ludwicks must be fine folks.
Jumbo, The Rays have a pipeline of OF’s and realized the chance to put the youngsters into the mix.
And by the way, The mention of Ross and Burrell were in reference to these types of players becoming available from time to time but the Cardinals always ending up with a feliz, wynn, miles…etc type of player.
I never the cardinals were cheap, I stated Tony means cheap when he says moneyball. But if they pay Albert 30 million a year we will find out if they are cheap or not with the remainder of the payroll.
BW, The cardinals are not the only team sugarcoating things. They are just better at it than most. Thats not a knock by the way BW, it is a compliment.
Crdwmn, I don’t think the Cardinals had a losing year. It was no doubt considered a winning year….10 games over .500. And the Cardinals fans will keep piling in as long as the team maintains that type of record and keep Albert. The next two years will tell. I very well may be wrong.
But I am still waiting on CC to name our terms on our bet.
Jumbo wrote……..”Ryan Ludwick’s brother used to pitch for the Cards. And he used to post at the Birdhouse. He was a fan favorite and deserved to be. Cheered for his younger brother’s success, after Ryan finally got a chance to succeed in the majors. It was nice. No doubting the owner, manager, or declaring things hopeless for next year, when the games have not even been played yet. The Ludwicks must be fine folks.”
I don’t know……….they are with the Padres now.
The critical point here is that no one was brought in the would cover up a “home grown prospect” or that might become a fan favorite, creating contract pressure at the end of their short stay which might set a dangerous precedent..
Penny’s contract, DeRosa, Green, Holiday, Lohse…………..All one year deals remaining or agreed too….All except Lohse and Penny costing a mint in minor league investment………look at the ones that cost them money………………..They know where there heading……..it has nothing to do with baseball………..and that’s the embarrassing part for management.
When Ryan was a Cardinal, the point is his brother did not offer bleak thoughts about how the team could not win. Erik of course had the chance to do this, but if he privately harbored such thoughts, he did not offer them on the Web. Neither the Union nor MLB like discouraging thoughts dished out to the fans by players. Both ownership and labor tend generally to be in agreement about wanting to boost the game’s popularity, giving them more pie to divide.
RCW, you would offer a more compelling disparagement of the Cards if you could identify a specific player who the Cards could have obtained, but the Cards declined to do so.
Cody Ross likely does not qualify as such a player, because the Giants probably had higher waiver claim opportunity versus the Cards. If so, Ross was not available to the Cards and it would be incorrect to suggest that he was.
Would TLR prefer $9MM salary, just $450K cost, Pat Burrell to Stavinoha? I think so. The question, however, is whether Burrell chose to play in StL, backing up Ludwick and Holliday, at the time. Why should Pat want to sit on the bench in any city if he figures he can get more playing time on a team without Holliday and Ludwick.
There is only one Burrell, not 12 of them, and the real one chose to go to the Giants and I can understand why, because this gave him more opportunity. For you to claim the Cards could have signed one of all the many Burrells floating freely around yet ignored by Mo is not real world. You may know how to advise Colby on his swing, but this genuine expertise does not make you correct as regards opportunities to obtain Ross and Burrell.
I am not suggesting you are deliberately trying to mislead people. I am only suggesting you appear incorrect in suggesting the Cards could have obtained either player. This seems unfortunate because then you in effect offer discouraging thoughts to the Cards fan base, by innocent mistake.
Its very hard for outsiders, fans, players, their families or friends, to know the genuine choices available to teams. GMs will compete with one another and play a lot mindgames. Sometimes deals are available, but they are bad deals, so a GM holds off, because better off in the long run. Its not possible for one team to manufacture favorable trades unilaterally. There has to be a willing trade partner. So its good to be cautious about making casual assumptions that the Cards could have landed Ross or Burrell.
Jumbo, I’m not speaking for RC…………………. Ross and Burrell are examples of players who happen to be in the spot light. There were many others…………………… do you remember Mo’s stern admonitions when he signed Lopez…..at Tony behest………making it very clear that he was a backup utility man……….and no more………………as far as he could extend himself over the on field barrier anyway………………….
I hope everyone realizes the paradox arising here…………..Tony likely doesn’t protect any of the property liability for the Cardinals this year…………….he will let them fail early, pressuring moves by Mo/Bd…………………he knows the game approaching……….well…………its war……….bad time to be a weak armed outfielder………..or 150+ strikeouts chew toy.
Reference Jumbo comment #64. The previous season’s won-loss record is only used for waiver claim priority through the first 30 days of the season. After that, it is the current season.
Jumbo wrote, “For you to claim the Cards could have signed one of all the many Burrells floating freely around yet ignored by Mo is not real world. ”
So you are saying that the cards couldn’t have signed a Burrell type of player or wouldn’t have? The real world is the cards didn’t do as much as was necessary in order for the team to win this year…..thats the REAL truth. Ludwick for Westbrook? ………….Geez, that move had Hindenburg written all over it.
Jumbo wrote, ” You may know how to advise Colby on his swing, but this genuine expertise does not make you correct as regards opportunities to obtain Ross and Burrell.”
Well I’m gonna go out on a limb and say it qualifies me to know whatever they did didn’t work. Therefore I am qualified to look back and say they didn’t do enough to give the team a chance.
Jumbo wrote, “GMs will compete with one another and play a lot mindgames. Sometimes deals are available, but they are bad deals, so a GM holds off, because better off in the long run. ”
ahhhh I see…The Feliz deal would qualify as one of those bad ones. And Mo should have held off?
I’m not so sure that it makes sense to call next year’s team unable to compete and to chastise the Cardinals for not spending on next year’s team before the current year’s playoffs have ended and free agents have even filed.
Nut, come on now. did you read what was posted? What I wrote was if the cards plan on winning next year with the same group it seems a stretch to think the outcome will be different from this year.
I must have missed a few of those ifs written in white text somewhere.
Sure, the team needs to improve. I mean, most teams probably need to take steps to improve themselves over the off-season. Franklin and Miller are old and Carpenter is getting old, but other than Lohse at 32, everyone else on the team is 30 or younger. I wouldn’t expect serious decline. Garcia, Rasmus, Jay, Salas, Boggs, and McClellan are all still moderately young and should continue to improve.
Nut, just for fun, compare the Reds and the Cardinals position by position and tell me what you think. How do the cardinals match up against them in the years to come?
Do you think the Cardinals can win next year with no major additions on the roster? Do you think Brendan, Skip, and Freese rebounding from their year will be enough?
No. I already said that I didn’t think that they’d stick with Skip and Freese as starters. Ryan should be fine, I think.
Uh, I don’t know who is projected to return for the Reds next season. Are all of their veterans signed?
C: Molina > Hernandez (defense)
1B: Pujols > Votto (barely, also defense)
2B: Schumaker < Cabrera (defense, age)
3B: ??? < Rolen (but Rolen is also old and injury prone)
RF: Jay <>> Gomes
That didn’t format well at all.
C: Molina over Hernandez (defense)
1B: Pujols over Votto (barely, also defense)
2B: Schumaker well under Phillips
SS: Ryan over Cabrera (age, defense)
3B: ??? under Rolen (but he is old and injury prone)
RF: Jay well under Bruce
CF: Rasmus even with Stubbs
LF: Holliday well over Gomes
And uh, is it even fair to compare pitching? I don’t think that the Reds match up anywhere to the Cardinals on that side. Maybe at the tail end of the rotation.