A signal from the St. Louis Cardinals camp that hitting coach Mark McGwire may not return in 2011.
In the fine print of Monday’s announcement of the return of manager Tony La Russa for his 16th season at the helm of the St. Louis Cardinals was the word that bullpen coach Marty Mason was being fired for having made what was later disclosed to be internal remarks critical of the organization’s player development processes.
In contrast with past La Russa return announcements, there was no statement made about contracts for next season having been offered to and accepted by the remainder of the major league coaches. There had been earlier speculation that one reason for La Russa’s 15-day delay since the end of the season to make his decision was over the future of his staff.
One major question surrounds first-year hitting coach Mark McGwire, a controversial choice from the start due to his past steroid use, lack of professional coaching experience and later because of the offensive inconsistency demonstrated by the Cardinals this past season. Two of McGwire’s holdover students from his private hitting instruction days, Brendan Ryan and Skip Schumaker, were among the club’s biggest disappointments in 2010. The new coach also publicly criticized the organization’s long-standing reliance on video. Mac’s hiring was originally announced last October 26 in conjunction with La Russa’s decision to return for 2010.
Late Monday evening, Post-Dispatch beat writer Joe Strauss tweeted the following:
“According to TLR, McGwire “really torn” about return as hitting coach. (Family reasons.) My guess: He doesn’t.”
This seems very strange.
Just six weeks ago, the Post-Dispatch ran an article by Derrick Goold entitled “McGwire finds he loves coaching,” in which the rookie hitting coach was extremely positive. Among his remarks:
“I know one thing after this, I would really love to be a hitting coach for many, many years,” McGwire said.
Big Mac’s closing comment (highlighting is mine):
“I’ve learned a great deal of stuff throughout this whole season, and I’d love to continue doing this for a long time,” McGwire said. “But I’ve got to be offered the job first.”
Nine days later, Strauss penned another positive McGwire piece, this time from La Russa’s perspective, “La Russa gives McGwire high marks.” Strauss’ opening sentence said it all.
“Mac is back, at least if Cardinals manager Tony La Russa factors in the decision.”
What changed since September 11? Big Mac didn’t mention family matters pulling him away from his work. La Russa was pushing for his return. The outcome of the Cardinals disappointing season was already all but officially decided.
Reading between the lines, perhaps McGwire isn’t being offered the job in 2011.
In other words, could La Russa have lost an internal battle to keep McGwire, with the Cardinals offering the hitting coach a far more gracious exit than given Mason? Or did Big Mac have a 180 degree change of heart since last month?
We’ll see over the upcoming days.
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Sling blade thinking ……………………. you are right on it, is my guess. PR move…… Colby and Ryan and Skip are at the center of this. St Louey………ka pouey. Looks like Rasmus may stay………unless Tony had to give up his friends just to get rid of him in some sort of barter arrangement………………..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ8SvJE1Oqs&videos=l5LX821VUpA&feature=BF
Southpaw Marty Mason was drafted in June 1979, out of a community college serving Minneapolis, MN. He pitched in the minors between 1980-86, before becoming a pitching coach. Mason was an employee of the Cards for 30 years.
This summer, a story arose that the minor league system was not training pitchers the way Duncan wants them taught. Mason must have been part of this questioning. Mo must have felt this non-constructive or untrue, since Mason will be replaced by a minor league pitching coach who Mason must have criticized.
Also this summer, the Cards elevated John Vuch to head development. Vuch has long been with the team and must be well regarded by Mo and Jeff. Luhnow is probably happy to be freed from development to have more time for the critical role of amateur scouting.
Replacing a bullpen coach is not done to impress fans. Rather it may show Mo values coaches cooperating, versus being devisive. Its an endorsement of those in minor league system.
If Mac does not return, the circumstances may become more clear when we see if Skip and Brendan train with him again this winter.
Marty shouldn’t have any trouble finding a new job.
Not everything has a happy ending, Jumbo.
With triplets in early June 2010, Stephanie and Mark McGwire now have 5 children. Things must be pretty busy at home.
Come to think of it, I have never seen Jumbo and Ari Fleischer in the same room. Hmmmm…..
Westie, good job on classical guitar. Soothing. Maybe baseball provides one outlet for wilder thoughts.
In due course, we will find out about the coaches for 2011.
Without any inside sources, I have to think the lesson of Mason’s dismissal is the same one we learned when Jocketty was let go 3 years ago: When you rip the organization to reporters, or use surrogates to rip the organization, you get fired. Period. Baseball’s no different from any other business.
If you can’t settle your differences within the organization’s established channels, you should either leave the organization, or accept what you can’t change. Whatever temporary satisfaction you get from seeing your gripes show up in Joe Strauss’ weekly online chats will have to be balanced against the risk of losing your job.
The irony here is that the organization seemed to take the complaints seriously, and take steps to address the apparently substantive holes in player development. So if he’d kept his issues within the organization, he’d probably still have a job.
It would be nice to know where the truth lies when it comes to player development. I never heard these gripes when Jocketty routinely went outside the organization for (sometimes overpaid) complementary players, but now that the system is providing impact players like Colby and Garcia, middle relievers, and everything in between, it’s suddenly a crisis?
Lou, my feeling is that the political trenches were dug deeply over a long period of time and as long as the principals remain, there will be tension. Hard to tell if it is increasing or decreasing. Mozeliak has taken some public action on both sides of the aisle by the change in Luhnow’s role and now by the Mason firing.
Whether the resulting ripple effect ultimately helps the team on the field is another question. Will the remaining coaches be more motivated and effective? Will player development and the MLB staff be more in sync? Will the players arriving in St. Louis be better prepared in the eyes of the MLB coaches?
It would be a little surprising if McGwire served just one year, after all the PR trouble of hiring him in the first place. Did McGwire pop off about something, as Mason did? Not that I heard. Was McGwire responsible for hitters not achieving more or are these hitters responsible? Hal McRae got a 5 year run. If McGwire departs, the reason(s) will not be easy to infer.
There is no way that removing Marty from his role as mechanical fixer uper can help this team. Marty was a valuable asset for the pitching staff. His ability to put a quick fix on a reliever’s mechanicals issues is/was invaluable but his most important role , especially for the younger players, was keeping it fun and keeping his relievers relaxed. He is the anti Tony in that regard. Which is why the young pitchers are more successful on this cardinals team than the young position players imo.
Having so many different types of pitching mechanics in his pitchers but having the expertise to be able to help and fix mechanical issues in each one of those pitchers is rare. Its one area of coaching strength that was lost yesterday. Internal promotion will not bring a guy to the table that can do what Marty did.
Being able to fix mechanical issues in his hitters is one area Big Mac doesn’t have a grip on at this point in his hitting coach career. Thats the difference in a hitting coach and someone with a hitting philosophy. I can take my hitting philosophy and try to change everything about how you hit but you will get worse before you ever get better(see Skip and Brendan). If you stick with it long enough you will start to improve but thats hard to do. Its like changing arm slots in pitchers, the pitchers lose control and sharpness on their pitches for an extended period of time before they adjust to their new position. Some make the adjustment quicker than others. Being able to take players with different hitting mechanics and help each one get back to where they are at their best is not an easy thing to do. Mark’s not there at this point. I’d be surprised if he came back as the hitting coach. A hitting coach needs a pocket full of band aids to stop the bleeding real quick before a player goes 0 for 18. Having a hitting philosophy minus the ability to put a quick fix on a player renders you just a game preparation guy, not a hitting coach. This doesn’t make Big Mac a bad guy and I’m sure he will get better at being a quick fix guy if he continues his dream to be a hitting coach. But he realizes today that helping hitters is a tough gig because everyone of them are different and need different tweaks to get them right.
So you get rid of the best quick fix on the team in Marty Mason so now you don’t have one for your pitchers and you don’t have one for your hitters. Its just another hole that has to be filled.
Just listened to TLR live on KMOX. More positive messages (not that he should air dirty laundry). He said Mason’s departure was to open up a spot on the staff for a deserving minor league coach and would not acknowledge that Mason’s outspokenness was the issue. He also said McGwire has been made an offer to return. They are waiting for Mark to decide.
His triplets were discussed. What I still don’t get is that Mac had the same number of kids last month when he was gung-ho about staying in the job as he does this month when he allegedly can’t decide whether or not to remain. What changed?
So, paradoxically, Mason’s complaints were about an issue that provided the best reason to keep him employed. The system provided him with pitchers with problems that needed to be fixed, and he was the best guy to have around to fix them.
Too bad he couldn’t find a more constructive way to voice his concerns, because it sounds like everyone agrees on the quality of his work.
Brian, as for the politics of it, what kind of CEO do you think De Witt is? Is he a “pretend the problem doesn’t exist” guy, or does he like some tension and competition within his management team? If the political dysfunction is as deeply entrenched as you described, maybe the owner likes it that way.
Lou, given tension has existed since at least 2005, I would guess they have learned to live with it. It would seem that DeWitt does have his limits though since he did fire Jocketty in 2007. With other principals still in-house, the fundamental concerns seem to remain. Apparently, DeWitt can live with the current level of discord, since I think the only dismissals since Jocketty have been a hitting coach and a bullpen coach. This is all speculated from a reasonable distance. The most 1-1 time I have spent with DeWitt has been about ten minutes.
I’ll fire a few spitballs across the bow Lou. Marty works with his relievers and starters on mechanical issues……fixes them…..they get better. Then they are sent down to AAA. When they arrive back with the big club its like ground hog day all over again. MArty has to correct the same issues again all the while those pitchers are struggling until they make the corrections which are not done overnight.
Marty is tired of the AAA staff teaching mechanical issues that are 180 degrees opposite of what he teaches and believes to be correct.
He raises a stink about the ineptness of the minor league development staff.
He is fired because he was right but not quiet enought about being right. The only person allowed to throw people under the bus is Tony….everyone else has to pay the piper if they aren’t following the company line.
I’m pretty sure those same issues exist in the hitting department as well at the AAA level.
For the record Derrick May is the best hitting coach the cardinals have in the minors. He has a pocket full of band aids and knows how to use them. There’s you a good choice for internal promotion of a hitting coach Mo.
Brian
Could it be that MM`s wife decided she would rather have him around instead of on the road for 6 months.Its a possibility.Things do change family wise .
Brian, As long as Albert and Tony are on the same page everything else is meaningless in BD’s eyes I’m sure. Albert apparel sales = $$$$$$$, Albert = ticket sales = $$$$$$.
The name of the game here is money any way you slice it.
I think RC hit the nail on the head.Why can`t everyone sit down early in the year and agree on a way of teaching that is consistent all thru the system?.The squeaky wheel gets the grease sometimes and sometimes it gets replaced.
Bw52, ref comment #17, yes, one explanation for McGwire’s new hesitation could be pressure from home. It is hard to tell. Earlier, all the articles were about his wife being from the area, coming home, taking the older kids to the park, etc. Maybe triplets were enough to change all that. It would have to be a huge amount of work, especially for Mrs. McGwire.
If I had his financial means, I might hire some good domestic help and be glad I had a reason to get out of the house now and then!
(For the record, I have three kids, but they weren’t all born on the same day!)
Ref comment #19, if I remember correctly, I think it was Strauss who reported on a spring training meeting between the major and minor league pitching coaching staffs that went badly.
Brian
Maybe its time for the majors and minors coaches to all sit down with the minor league director and all hash out their differences and decide on a system wide method of coaching and teaching.This is beyond stupid that this is even a issue.
Bw52, we have been led to believe that one reason John Vuch was promoted into that job and Jeff Luhnow moved aside was to facilitate the mending of those fences. We shall see how easy or difficult the gap is to close. It is fair to wonder why the problem remains three years after Jocketty was fired.
Its a fair answer to think that someone on the ML staff has the memory of an elephant, and never forgets. I guess with this latest news, we are led to believe the culprit is Marty Mason.
Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your perspective, the more powerful person is still around.
If they bring in a bull pen coach and possibly a hitting coach from the minor leagues, I would think that would be a benefit to the younger players. Perhaps that is what the FO is going for. (though re hiring TLR would negate that assumption) It will all come out soon enough.
It may be useful to recall the instance of Anthony Reyes. Reyes was a sore armed college senior (like Bittle) when he turned pro. He pitched in 2004 and 2005 in the minors. He did not have a lot of development time, because an advanced pitcher when he turned pro. Then there was a kerfuffle in about 2006 as to whether Reyes knew how to throw a sinker.
This question is long-standing. Reyes was drafted and trained under Jocketty. Luhnow was out of the picture.
Luhnow may not have changed a lot of minor league pitching coaches, I forget. He added Dennis Martinez, for one change. The Cards have seemed to put draft priority on pitchers with sinkers, like Mortensen and Todd. That should be supported by Duncan.
If Mason and Duncan had complaints or misunderstandings with certain minor league pitching coaches, its not surprising these have persisted because these guys have been working for one employer, the Cards, for years. Maybe there are headstrong people involved who could not see the point of view of others.
Luhnow could see it as smart to step out of a disagreement that pre-dates his arrival. Let Vuch try to mix oil and water. Mo must have decided Mason was not constructive, so is going to elevate one of the minor league pitching coaches with whom Mason disagreed.
From Cincy.com
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/firstup/2010/10/19/cardinalslookingfornewbullpencoach/
Mason, the team’s bullpen coach the past 12 years, said he was surprised when notified of the move early Monday afternoon.
“It’s my life’s work,” said Mason, whose roots within the organization extend to 1983 when he pitched for its Springfield affiliate. “If I was doing something wrong that upset somebody it looks like somebody could have said something.”
Mason reiterated respect for La Russa and his staff but didn’t retreat from his issues with player development in recent years.
“There are plenty of people that didn’t buy into what was going on in the player development system,” Mason said, noting the positive vibe created by recent changes within the department. “I don’t know if I voiced my opinion louder than anyone else’s – maybe so. But a lot of people don’t agree. Does that make us all bad guys? Does that mean you’re not a team player? I’ve been a team player for 28 years.”
It seems like the chronic disagreement or misperception was between Mason versus Dyer Miller and/or Derek Lilliquist. IIRC, Miller used to be the pitching coach at AAA back when Reyes was riding the Memphis shuttle up and down. There seemed differences in what was said about Reyes. Miller was more supportive of Reyes pitching the ways he knew, including high fastballs. Luhnow may have moved Miller out of Memphis, to try to ease the disagreement, since Illsey has been pitching coach at Memphis recently.
Its too bad if a guy who worked for the Cards for 3 decades, Mason, has to go. But since the tension has been going on for years and years now, Mo may have felt that someone had to depart.
If the Boss wanted it to end, I’m sure it would end. The boss being Bill Dewitt.
perhaps crdswnn is on to something here.Could it be promoting minor league coaches as a bridge between the older guys (TLR and Duncan)..Whatever happens the minors and the Big league coaches need to agree on a philosophy and coaching goals.This devisive BS is beyond dumb at this stage of the game.What everybody should be worrying about now is how to we make this organization better fron the bottom to the top.
Dyar Miller has had 3 tours as AAA pitching coach for the Cards, adding up to 10 years service. Miller has also had about 7 years as minor league pitching coordinator.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/Dyar-Miller.shtml
So for perspective, the disagreements among pitching coaches within the Cards organization are nothing new. Miller and Mason have been working for the same employer for 17 years.
As Cardinals Fans Stomach Churns—brought to you by Dove Soap.
Dyar Miller has been around the minor leaguers for nearly 30 years now.He was here when the Redbirds came back to Louisville in 1982 as a player and was helping the young pitchers back then.A long time organization guy.I don`t know what the total situation is and none of us really know.My main concern is that they get thre rift mended and work on improving the Cards.
Jumbo, I am not comfortable with your view of past events. I think most people who follow this believe the internal problems exploded when Luhnow was hired despite having a non-baseball background and the previous farm director, Bruce Manno, was pushed out. The gulf is miles deeper and wider than Dyar Miller.
Another guy who could be part of this discussion is Mark Riggins. Riggins is about the same age as Mason, turning pro with the Cards back around 1980, and then becoming the minor league pitching coordinator, probably under Whitey. He had that job a long time, before leaving by choice or involuntarily, I forget, probably after Walt left. Riggins soon landed with the Cubs as minor league pitching coordinator (and has been credited with the Cubs acquriing Mike Parisi).
My point would be that the Cards have had long-time minor league pitching coaches. A lot of coaching continuity. Miller, Mason, Riggins, and others have been co-workers, for the Cards, for a long time. If they have had any disagreements, these are probably long-standing differences. Mo has to know these guys well, having worked with them for a long time.
I get that Manno was popular, but in what universe were he and his staff doing a good job drafting, signing, and developing players?They got lucky with one 13th-round pick in 1999. They had entire drafts that didn’t produce a single major-league regular. Their record was irredeemable.
Maybe it’s telling that Jocketty was willing to go down fighting for somebody who was objectively hurting the organization with his poor performance. You can’t have a successful organization, in any realm, when loyalty is valued over competence.
Manno was a long-time farm director and a Walt “guy.” Mo himself was scouting director in 1999 and 2000 so he should get some credit for Pujols and Molina. It is just that change clearly has taken time.
A few clarifications…..
Manno was recruited by Walt to serve as development director. IIRC, he came from Milwaukee in around 2002. Bruce never had amateur scouting in his portfolio.
Walt felt loyalty to Manno since he hired him (or Walt felt unhappy with DeWitt giving responsibilities to Luhnow, who was not hired by Walt). Walt chose to disrespect DeWitt and not to support DeWitt/Luhnow readily, so Walt was paid to leave and happily for him has landed in a fine situation along the Ohio River.
The Cards have had a lot of long-time employees. Some were able to adjust to a new GM, some may have chosen to leave of their own volition or been asked to leave, as part of the changes sought by DeWitt and Luhnow. Examples of long time pitching coaches have included Riggans, Miller, and Mason. If they have disagreements, its hard to think these just came up for the very first time this summer, given Mason and Miller have been working for the same employer for decades.
DeWitt, Mo, and Luhnow may have decided this summer’s complaints were nonsense. They gave Vuch a deserved promotion and a mission to get everyone on the same page. And sent a signal to Mason or others by not renewing him after 30 years and they will replace him with one of the minor league pitching coaches he was criticizing. This could be a way of saluting the work being done by minor league coaches, in the face of criticism.
Mason says he has been a team player for 28 years, so is surprised to be let go. Maybe the Cards are grateful for his long years of service and would like to give someone else a chance to serve on the ML staff?
Or maybe Mo got fed up with the same old broken-record whining?
A lot of the actors within this mini-drama have been around for a long time. Mo started circa 1996, brought over from Colorado by Walt. TLR was recruited by Walt for 1996. Mason has worked for the Cards for a long time. Vuch has worked for the Cards for a very long time. We shall find out soon enough who is hired as the new bullpen coach, but it could be a long-time employee.
We used to wonder if TLR would be back. This seemed a big issue. However, it turns out that the bullpen coach will not be back. Not only Tony, but Big Mac has been offered a new contract or so it is said. Since TLR does not want to be caught in a needless lie, maybe Big Mac or Mrs. Big Mac is truly wondering whether he should focus on being Big Daddy?
Nothing like a little off season drama to spice things up.
If Mo had real balls he’d have re-assigned Mason to be the minor league pitching coordinator. That would have stirred the pot nicely. (actually there are organizations that practice this type of job switching on a regular basis as a matter of organizational philosophy).
If Mason’s dissent was only internal, than this firing is bogus and a terrible move.
The fact that Mason was never approached about his outspokenness (if true) shows me that Mo may be in over his head leadership wise (yet alone baseball wise). I am not optimistic about the near term future at this point.
CC, as regards job shifts, a couple of the leading amateur scouts, Fick and Rigoli, got a rotation to pro scouting a few years back. Luhnow has championed job rotations, to expand people’s horizons, so they are not doing the same job, until they die. A Florida scout took on being a rookie league manager. I expect the Cards could have moved Mason to minor league pitching coordinator.
I doubt Mason’s dissent was only internal. He has probably been an anonymous source of gossip to P-D reporters and the front office can figure it out, from the views expressed.
Letting someone go, without any prior warning, seems iffy, I would agree. However, we outsiders cannot know the full story. Luhnow and Mo may have heard complaints about minor league pitching coaches for years and years already; they may have heard enough. And they may want to introduce a bit of change within the coaching staff. If Mason is good, then he can get another job, like Riggans and Uncle Walter did.
Sometimes we overlook the obvious in our desire to manifest boundaries that enhance our sense of sanctuary………………WC
Maybe you’re trying to see to much in this friends…………………………… the Romans built awnings on their Colosseum to protect the desires of the folks that would be sitting there the longest………and who incidentally, were paying for the entertainment for the “privileged” and themselves…………. they needed to “want to participate” in order to be vulnerable to exploitation.
Questions?????????
Is Mason just an innocent bystander……….a casualty of war?………………..or is he in fact , a ” pound of flesh” ……….. extracted in combat? when the opportunity presented itself …………….
Don’t watch the side show. Focus on the main attraction……………………
Was this a clumsy sword thrust by BD? doing very little “real damage”…………. or the act of an arrogant, overconfident emperor…………..(Gladiator)
Answer…………………… ?????????? time will tell……… One sure thing….. “detente ” is over. BD is vulnerable to, and will get “public criticism” from Tony over his off season moves now………..
and that possibility is way to predictable and obvious for BD to miss………… he knows something…………….. a variable that we don’t in all likelihood…………………..
Speculation………..he knows Albert’s future……………. and is unconcerned. He is more worried about “carving up” his holiday turkey…….that’s you all, as RC would say…………
Caution……………. when the battle starts to get ugly, and it will from my “vantage point” ……
chew toy players in the line of fire may be fair game in coming hostilities…………….. someone reading this best pay attention………… the golden fleece comes to those who seek it least. It is guarded by some formidable adversaries………….usually within our own minds……It may be time to produce a safe product……..thus greasing the Pig……….so to speak……………..bad time for a treasure hunt works too………………….
Sometimes there are clear reasons for a coaching change. Mitchell Page after the 2004 season was rumored to sometimes drink to excess. Showing no hard feelings, the Cards tried to bring him back at Quad Cities in 2010, but this ended after a month or two.
Hal McRae had the job for 5 years. The Cards had problems hitting last year and the fans get burned out. The Cards decided to bring back one of their own great hitters. Its hard to recall a better Cardinal hitter than McGwire of the right age to coach. I don’t think there was a clear reason to end the relationship with McRae, it may be the fans just needed a mood change.
Mason and the team have loyally gotten along for decades. The bullpen coach is not a controversial job with turn-over, like batting coach. The Cards may not want to leak reasons for ending the relationship.
Is it just me or does anyone else feel that the Luhnow/Mozeliak tandem could go down in Cards history as the turning point of the organization success? We see the Jeff/Walt rift push out Walt one injury plagued year after winning the WS. Now getting rid of a very good coach and then Mo offers Duncan a 1 year after he said he wanted to be in St Louis for 3 years right after you axed he right hand man.
2011 sees us have tons of holes offensively and limited resources to fix them. If Albert isn’t impressed and doesn’t sign a new deal and ultimately walks then the whole staff in turn leaves and even if our better prospects all progress they still aren’t ready for the start of 2012 we could see some lean times and when the money isn’t flowing BDW would likely make the change ousting Mo/Jeff and our payroll would drop.
If Mason was at odds with the minor league guys, and Mason is out and a deserving minor league guy is in, then we know which side won, don’t we? The strange thing is that Dave also was concerned and, presumably, he and Mason were on the same side vs. the minor league guys. So it seems like Dave’s side must have lost out, but he’s anxious to be back. Strange.
Great discussion today. Enjoyed it.
bling, its hard to know the compatibility of thinking between Mason vs Duncan. Duncan is sensitive to organizational consistency in pitching approach. Maybe Mason thought he was protected by TLR if he expressed concern about this. But Mo and DeWitt may have heard enough about what is now an old story that they do not want to hear it anymore and consider it a petty old complaint that only ends when you move out a protagonist.
TLR seems year to year. This being so, its not clear the Cards should offer Duncan a three year deal, unless TLR would sign one too.
Up at 32, Brian suggests there were internal problems that “exploded” under Luhnow. The explosion ended with Walt’s eviction.
Luhnow is not a pitching coach, so cannot be blamed for arcane residual differences of opinion among long-time pitching coaches. These differences may be blown out of all proportion by a bunch of old guys who have been arguing with one another for so long they may not remember all the reasons why.
Does any one here actually “know” what the pitching issues were?
If my memory serves me, Tony, Dave, and “influential” staff members like Mason, all took turns battering the DeWitt henchman…….. Jeff Luhnow…………………. they pressured him out……..costing a pound of flesh it would seem………………. this is not Mo………it is BD that measures out the gold, and with that goes other privileges. Tony had this and the MM “ultimatum” put on his plate at the Monday meeting after the season ended. Did he fight against it all the way? and lost, failing to show any strength from his position?
The fun isn’t guessing how or why…………..its recognizing the game……enjoying the match.
Ugh. I’m not interested in the petty front office bickering, myself. I just know that my team had a darn fine pitching staff last season and I don’t like them shaking up the coaching staff in that area.
This stuff makes me nervous:
http://www.foxsportsmidwest.com/10/18/10/Relievers-disappointed-to-see-Mason-go/landing.html?blockID=333939&feedID=3779
Thanks for the read Nut………………… Is this getting interesting! This will all play on the MM “child care” issues confronting Tony/BD I’d guess……………….. you do realize that its Johnny Mo that is taking all the flak here……………. he is quite a tool…………for BD………..
You like relievers to like their coach and find him helpful, as B J Rains reports. Mason will be replaced. Its not like the Cards are going to go into 2011 without a bullpen coach.
Even after 30 years service, employees who express a bad attitude toward the boss or toward minor league pitching coaches trying to do their jobs can be replaced. That seems the message from Mo.
Bad attitude??????????????????????? you don’t have a clue Jumbo. Mason was a soldier, lost defending a cause that should never have come into question. He was/is collateral damage. And this all as to do with the Tony/AP posturing. I’ve been reading your stuff Jumbo……….some very good, astute observations. When you are threatened concerning roll playing issues, especially patriarchal issues, you begin to generalize toward “lets be a happy family resolutions”. ……..
Every moment the dynamics surrounding these events become more and more apparent. Don’t let that rattle you……………………………. your OK.
Between me and you…………. Dave D has a huge amount of information derived from the new technologies………………….he still keeps his “Book”…….every game………..for a reason. I will share that with you at another time. It is very interesting in deed.
There is a lot to be said for balanced reporting, and the lack thereof can present a scewed picture of reality. We’ve all heard a lot about Tony’s quest to surpass McGraw and take over second place in all time wins. So far, so good. But wins is only half the story, is it not?
Tony has already taken over second place in all time losses, trailing only Connie Mack. Congratulations, Tony. Nice going. Only a guy who couldn’t be fired lost more games.
Should Tony hang around two more years, to pass McGraw in wins, he might also move up from his present position at eleventh in all time games over .500. He’s at +345 now, and could pass Cap Anson (+349) and Sparky Anderson (+360), to move into sole possession of ninth place. You rock, Tony.
He will never catch McGraw (+815).
RC, thanks for letting us know Colby is relaxing on the beach. Glad to hear it.
A Shirley Temple, not so much. A while back, I knocked a guy off a bar stool for ordering a Shirley Temple.
Some general information………………………
Cardinals have been cutting back for awhile…………. especially in the bullpen where I’d guess they pay a fraction of what contending teams spend. (speculation by me) As the pressure to preform in recent years has been focused on the Pen………… the need to provided quality arms by ” spending” became a point of contention between Tony/Dave and BD/Mo, who of course wanted the pen to be filled from the farm system.
Clarification!!!!!!!!!!!! there is no one in the farm system from a coaching standpoint, who is going to challenge Dave and Sargent Marty Mason. They would not / could not do that. DeWitt had Luhnow working pressure on minor league coaching to present some sort of denial of accountability about the cause for the bull pen weakness and their spending plan. They were essentially instructed to ignore Dave’s instructions on mechanical issues that relate directly to his staging of the sinker and “pitch to contact” philosophies………………….. for reasons justified by “the new order of things” that they would eventually become a part of. (animal farm)
I’m sure everyone here remembers the skirmishes………Tony……and then Dave…..and then Tony asking for help. ……………..the blaming of Mason has to do with his constant contact with the Memphis/St Louis conveyor belt this year………………… he would have come into contact with Mo often as Mo made his rounds………………………Does anyone think that the need for “clarity” would cause strong opinions to be expressed………………??????????? Mason is the pound of flesh, now filling the mouth of Mo…………………. a really strong willed individualist……………… this is how BD operates. Mo is his front man…….pun intended…………………this is just the beginning……..of what? who knows……………… I’m watch Rupert.
Westy: “the blaming of Mason has to do with his constant contact with the Memphis/St Louis conveyor belt this year”.
I think that’s the crux of it, Westy. Mason would have had some uncomplimentary things to say about the minor league approach to his young charges. Those things would have filtered back to the young charges’ buddies back on the farm. That would have created problems and undermined the authority of the Mo/Luhnow folks down there.
Thanks for the You Tube link earlier. . . . . you have a lovely voice.
Ha ha……………….. in reality BB, the actual technical aspects to that problem don’t fit. If anything, they would have been taking back “the way” it needs to be done. I watched the AAA coach work during Lohse’s warm up in Reno. It was also being scouted and filmed by many………… he was afforded a religious formality………..with silk toilet paper if you get my meaning…………there was no loss lack of attention given to instructions given from the high place. Reverence would be the correct term………………… the technical part of it is BS. Everyone there is just trying to keep there jobs…………
She does look good doing Portuguese doesn’t she. Be sure to watch all three. My first of 5 levels of terror aimed at the state of Brazil.
By the way………………..NY / Texas is a great game…………did you see that pick up and throw by Francouer……….and trap by Molina……………….yeah, we have a baseball team……….Nice play at short too………………….but the biggest thing is the “money placements”, in the RBI situations…….look what their doing…………. We have none of that finesse.
Obama: We just got 100 Brazilian troops to help out in Iraq.
Bush: Wow, that’s great! . . . . . How much is a brazillion?
Aside: When Nolan bought the Rangers out of bankruptcy court, he put up a certain pile of money to pay unsecured creditors, of which A-Rod was a biggy, being due $24M deferred compensation from the Rangers. So, I suppose he is being paid handsomly by both sides. Sweet.
Those agreements are always interest free BB. They wouldn’t pay him all at once. He just isn’t going to lose it in a bankruptcy hearing……………If they owe him 24, that’s over a 5yr period or more…….add up the interest and you see the point………
The other Molina, Jose’, is a free agent, and will likely make LaRue money on a one year deal next year. With someone. He’s used to part time work and his OPS is better than LaRue’s was the last couple years, so he compares favorably.
Yeah Benji……………
I didn’t mean they were stuffing cash in his locker. Getting paid is getting paid. A cut of the gate in both parks.
I didn’t think Texas had a chance. They got protection for their closer last nigh, and they’ve done it again. Yankee’s have to make it close enough to pressure him……….
Notice Hamilton’s bat/hand position? Nice…………………
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_f9f43d1c-870f-5bf0-85e4-535209e7804e.html
Lets see if we can come up with some creative explanations………………. Mo’s sorry though. Got to have room for some new blood…………. Cardinals are going down, and isn’t because Tony is good our bad, its because DeWitt is on course…………..
does anyone think that Dave really needs security? The real issue is that this “show” will poison the environment surrounding the Pujols negotiation. We all no I could care less about that. But the gamesmanship is NOT IMPROVISATIONAL………..period. DeWitt is maneuvering toward a goal. His only concern, as with his politics, is to appear unaccountable.
Dave probably wants to be paid at a salary commensurate with his stature among ML pitching coaches. Mo needs to make it so.
McGwire has to decide whether to supervise the rascals in the dugout or the littler ones at home. Maybe he can get Mo to pick up the tab for nannies.
…………………strum, strum……………………..soothing concerto…………….Carioca is going to fall asleep……………………strum, strum………………..
I would be happy to see McGwire go, but not DD. I hope he returns.
Worse than falling asleep, for the rest of my life classical music will make me think of conspiracy theories. Thanks for ruining one of the finer things in life for me Westie
CC, just for the record, classical music is chock full of conspiracy theories. Opera was an early vehicle for the genre. So was classical literature.
Six days later, the Post-Dispatch is now running a story with the exact same line as this one.