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Brian Walton's news and commentary on the St. Louis Cardinals (TM) and their minor league system

Jay’s doubles among all-time Cards early leaders

Jon Jay (Doug Benc/Getty Images)Jon Jay has nine two-base hits in his first 38 games, joining just 16 other St. Louis Cardinals who could say the same.

In his 38th career MLB game on Tuesday night, outfielder Jon Jay continued his stellar play. The rookie hit two doubles, walked, scored and drove in a run, raising his average to .372.

It was his second career two-double game and the pair of doubles increased his career total to nine.

In the former stat, Jay joined nine other Cardinals hitters since 1920 with two two-double contests in their first 38 career games.

St. Louis Cardinals, multi-double games, first 38 career games

2 Jon Jay
2 George Watkins
2 Del Rice
2 Albert Pujols
2 Johnny Mize
2 Whitey Kurowski
2 Adam Kennedy
2 Ray Jablonski
2 Art Garibaldi
2 Howard Freigau

Jay became the 17th Cardinals hitter since 1920 to collect at least nine doubles in his first 38 games. Joe “Ducky” Medwick is on top with 14 two-base hits during the earliest stages of what would become his Hall of Fame career.

St. Louis Cardinals, doubles, first 38 career games

Doubles
14 Joe Medwick
13 Stu Martin
11 Del Rice Johnny Mize Ernie Orsatti
10 Adam Kennedy Art Garibaldi George Watkins Tom Alston Ray Sanders
9 Whitey Kurowski Howard Freigau Eddie Kazak Ray Lankford Stan Musial
9 Enos Slaughter Jon Jay

Special thanks to Tom Orf for the data tables above.

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182 Responses to “Jay’s doubles among all-time Cards early leaders”

  1. JumboShrimp says:

    Jay’s on-base percent leads the team, at .417. His table-setting is helping.

  2. JumboShrimp says:

    “They” said Jay might win a batting title. Jay does not have enought at bats to qualify, but his average is high enough.

  3. CardFanSince57 says:

    What a guy this Tom Orf is! I don’t know where you came across him, Brian, or how you coax him to grace this Blog so often: I know only that his stuff is never stale (listing only events and achievements which have occurred in the past), but in refreshing “real time” (always contemplating what is in presently in progress and how it relates to the past). I always ask myself, “Where does this guy think up some of this stuff?”, while enjoying the fact that the presentations are always fascinating and answering to the proverbial “Everything you wanted to know, but wouldn’t dare to ask”. With this latest presentation, I am thrilled with yet another piece of incontrovertible evidence that Jon Jay really is “something special”.

  4. blingboy says:

    57, I think he lives in Brian’s closet surrounded by monochrome monitors and wheezing old 80286′s.

  5. Brian Walton says:

    Sometimes I ask Tom to pull specific information, but more times than not, he sees current events and puts them in a historical perspective. That is obviously consistent with my interests. When I have a table of data in front of me, the story comes easily. Tom is a great friend of the blog and a tremendous resource.

  6. CardFanSince57 says:

    The brick wall that we anticipate (hope) is crumbling with age…
    Concerning Jamie Moyer, Jeff Gordon observes; “Like a lot of soft-tossing lefties, he has made sport of the Cards over the years. He is 5-1 with a 2.35 ERA in 11 career starts against his former team. Key Cards hitters Matt Holliday (0 for 6), Albert Pujols (2 for 10) and Felipe Lopez (5 for 27) have bad histories with Moyer”.

    While we have good faith that Chris will pitch as effectively as he did in his last outing, we hope that our offense will produce at least half of what it did last night.

  7. CardFanSince57 says:

    Jamie Moyer

    Way back… when he was 28 years of age, starting 7 games for us and “compiling” a worse-than-mediocre 0-5, 5.74 ERA, who’d a’thunk that he would have gone strongly for a grand total of 24 seasons and rack-up nearly 270 wins?

  8. crdswmn says:

    I wasn’t sure you would see this on the other thread 57, so I post here. I wasn’t on GMA this morning. My segment was only aired last night on ABC News.

    Here is the video link http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?catId=1206853 I am on after the oil spill story.

  9. crdswmn says:

    Let’s hope we can expel Jamie Moyer from the Bud Norris Club like we did last night with Kendrick.

  10. crdswmn says:

    Lineup: LOPEZ 3b WINN CF PUJOLS 1B HOLLIDAY LF CRAIG RF MOLINA C MILES 2B CARP P RYAN SS

  11. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    The snub to Greene is about something……………Craig will only hit a big mistake. Hopefully one will be offered.

  12. CardFanSince57 says:

    Westy: Whatever that certain “something” might be, the “snub” is obvious! Otherwise, Tony is sticking Brendan out there, supposing that the “law of averages” will eventually pay off with a Brendan finally getting a hit (and Tony fans everywhere will be toasting his genius). If the Cardinals open-up like they did last night, a hitless Brendan will again be inconspicuous. However, if the offense is silenced to any degree, a hitless Brendan will stick-out like a sore thumb and the absence of Greene will come to the fore like the absence of three starters on a Sunday!

    crdswmn: Due to an agonizingly slow dial-up operation, it takes an inordinate length of time for me to download vids. So, I will tackle it after the game: Thank you!

  13. crdswmn says:

    Greene has a bruised hand. Now Skip is hurt (wrist).

  14. CardFanSince57 says:

    Since Moyer is most effective against lefthanded batters (.194 against him), why would Tony want to insert Miles at 2B, instead of Schumaker?

  15. crdswmn says:

    Skip is hurt.

  16. CardFanSince57 says:

    Thank you, crdswmn: It appears that all the questions have been answered…

  17. CardFanSince57 says:

    The only worrisome weakness that we have tonight is the bottom of the order (Aaron being a lefty, Chris being a pitcher and Brendan hitting below the Mendoza Line). Aaron has the experience to make necessary adjustments, Chris is known to hit on occasion and Brendan has been making contact of late. Although the lineup is not optimal, our strongest assets are in place and there is yet reason for optimism.

  18. crdswmn says:

    Phillies sent Kendrick to Minors. http://es.pn/b0wMwf

  19. CariocaCardinal says:

    Tony expects a low scoring game. As a result, he wants Brendon’s defense. Doesn’t make for a good Westie psycho analysis but sometimes what appears complicated is actually pretty simple.

  20. CariocaCardinal says:

    Isn’t Miles a switch hitter?

  21. blingboy says:

    Isn’t Miles a switch hitter?

    Last night I had an up close look and Brendan had some good at bats and he hit the ball on the nose a couple times. Also played the field with confidence. He may be snapping out of it.

  22. blingboy says:

    Thats scary CC

  23. crdswmn says:

    Or maybe Brendan is starting because Greene is unavailable. Equally possible.

  24. crdswmn says:

    Miles is indeed a switch hitter.

  25. CardFanSince57 says:

    I believe that you guys are right: Aaron IS a switch-hitter!

    I’ve always loved Brendan’s defensive prowess (even his cool side-arm hot-dogging) and his exuberance and, agreeable to blingboy’s observations, “Brendan has been making contact of late”.

  26. CardFanSince57 says:

    Although we ballooned Kendrick’s ERA, from 4.44 to 4.82 (not much of an inflation, considering all the runs that he gave up), it seems that the demotion is rather harsh punishment for a mediocre who simply had a miserable outing.

  27. crdswmn says:

    The article suggests it was the 3 homers he gave up. Still no reason to send him to minors.

  28. CardFanSince57 says:

    With all the recrimination, innuendo, espionage and intrigue which is surely going on in that organization, I’m thinking that our problems emanating from offensive inconsistency were a walk-in-the-park in comparison…

  29. CardFanSince57 says:

    No club handles adversity well, but some clubs handle it better than others. Right now, the Fillies are floundering, trying desperately to gain some measure of traction…

  30. blingboy says:

    When we play Cincy in a couple weeks we could be facing Isringhausen.

  31. CariocaCardinal says:

    BB, let’s hope so. Trevor Hoffman revisited!

  32. CardFanSince57 says:

    I read about Walt talking to him and watching a demonstration. Is he being signed-on?

    When my lady friend saw your remark about Tom in Brian’s closet, she went hysterical with laughter!

  33. CardFanSince57 says:

    Votto just hit his 23rd homer and the Reds are leading the Nats in the bottom of the 1st, with only one out…

  34. CardFanSince57 says:

    I should say, they are leading them 3 to 0…

  35. crdswmn says:

    Are the Reds seeing The Strasburg this series?

  36. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Vegas says Cards score 5. If AP, MH and AC just stay back and put a charge on it away, we win handily. Holiday should homer to RC…………………..Moyer uses look alike pitches on the outside, or crashes the hands………Ap will hit some long foul balls………center is the solution for him.

  37. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    What does a quiet locker room mean to everyone, as in the Mo quote………..factions maybe? whose side is he going to reinforce?

  38. crdswmn says:

    J. Isringhausen signed with the Reds.

  39. CardFanSince57 says:

    crdswmn: I asked that question over 45 minutes ago. Thank you for looking it up. I believe that his appearance will be just like Carioca had indicated; “Hoffman revisited”.

  40. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Or he goes super human and conquers his old team……………………………nay!!!!!!!!!!!

    Its a good sign that Jocketty thinks it might work. They must be worried about their pen.

  41. CardFanSince57 says:

    The only thing that bothers me about that particular deal (as well as the one with Springer) is that Walt has been pretty accurate with his visionary eye in the past; seeing things in players that others cannot…

  42. CardFanSince57 says:

    Did Chris make quick work of it, or not?

  43. CardFanSince57 says:

    The first hit might as well be Albert’s…

  44. CardFanSince57 says:

    The second hit might as well be Matt’s…

  45. CardFanSince57 says:

    Albert and Matt might as well pull-off a double steal…

  46. crdswmn says:

    Other than Flip, everyone is waiting Moyer out.

  47. CardFanSince57 says:

    Ah, well… Moyer ought to be very careful: His ERA is slightly higher than Kendrick’s and the Fillie management is evidently feeling mean, miserable and intolerant…

  48. CardFanSince57 says:

    You’re right: Even Allen drove the pitch count high…

  49. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Phillie feed thinks Moyer might be hurt……..they’re warming up a rightie……….

  50. CardFanSince57 says:

    Long, lanky Werth reached on an infield single?

  51. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    lets hope we see their Carpenter………………..will he put Jay in?

  52. CardFanSince57 says:

    Ah, but Chris is the master of the groundball and inducing timely doubleplays! He is definitely on top of his game tonight. I can detect no chinks in his armor!

  53. CardFanSince57 says:

    Two consecutive 9-pitch innings! Chris is definitely at his stingiest and most efficient.

  54. blingboy says:

    A few weeks before Jaime Garcia was born Jamie Moyer won his first major league game. Lee Smith saved it for him. The losing pitcher??? Answer in five minutes.

  55. CardFanSince57 says:

    Attaboy, Aaron!

  56. CardFanSince57 says:

    A Carpenter vs C Carpenter (at Bat) = chalk up a sac for our man

  57. CardFanSince57 says:

    Brendan could have walked on the first four thrown… But he’s hungry and he’s swingin’! At least, just like last night, he’s making good contact…

  58. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Ryan is a mess…….. if they are patient with this guy, he will come over the plate. You have to think about getting the kids in…………..Lopez is starting to leak oil.

  59. CardFanSince57 says:

    It will take some time for Flip to master 3rd Base and throw accurately across the mound…

  60. blingboy says:

    Moyer beat Steve Carleton in his rookie debut June 1, 1986.

  61. CardFanSince57 says:

    I have no idea why Chris was so careful to pitch around Valdez…

  62. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    what in gods name is going on here

  63. CardFanSince57 says:

    C Carpenter vs A Carpenter (at Bat) = fielder’s choice out

    C Carpenter 2 A Carpenter 0

  64. CardFanSince57 says:

    Yeah, Chris is definitely the master of the groundball and inducing timely doubleplays!

  65. crdswmn says:

    Defense screwed up. Fortunately Carp was his masterful self and got the DP he should have gotten.

  66. blingboy says:

    Luddy homered his first at bat for Memphis.

  67. CardFanSince57 says:

    Our offense really needs to take advantage of the fact that Chris is mowin’ them down to the tune of 10 pitches per inning. It’s good to see Flip send one way out there and get on base…

  68. CardFanSince57 says:

    If Ludwick continues to do really well tonight, what would be the wisdom of keeping him down there for another game?

  69. CardFanSince57 says:

    Randy caught my memo…

  70. crdswmn says:

    Randy has been earning his pay lately.

  71. CardFanSince57 says:

    Notice the pattern? Our small-ballers and B-Teamers are stepping-up, heedless of how our Boppers are performing…

  72. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Weak at bat by AP…………..weaker at bat by his double Craig. The guy has nothing but both are waiting for a cookie…………………….to pull……….he will put Jay in shortly.

  73. CardFanSince57 says:

    blingboy must’ve wandered-off and Carioca is evidently glued to the TV. Perhaps Westy will answer the question for us: If Ludwick continues to do really well tonight, what would be the wisdom of keeping him down there for another game?

  74. blingboy says:

    He struck out his second time up. Seems like after 3 weeks it would take a couple games at least to get back in the groove.

  75. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    We don’t need him. They can keep a soft schedule for him…………He will be in Chicago. The question is who will they send down………..right now its Craig.

  76. CardFanSince57 says:

    That sounds unreasonable and, with our crowded outfield, I really don’t know why I’m being so impatient…

  77. CardFanSince57 says:

    Did Yadier just get through flexing his muscles?

  78. blingboy says:

    It stands to reason they send down the outfielder who is contributing least.

  79. CardFanSince57 says:

    A Carpenter vs C Carpenter (at Bat) = single to center

    C Carpenter 3
    A Carpenter 0

  80. CardFanSince57 says:

    All RIGHT! A Carpenter truly IS on our side!

  81. CardFanSince57 says:

    Guess who is being sent down to the Fillies’ AAA club tonight?

  82. CardFanSince57 says:

    Yep! Brendan continues to make contact…

  83. CardFanSince57 says:

    Allen and Brendan are the only two in our starting lineup (so far) to remain hitless..

  84. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Brendan is a mess…….big cut followed by a fake bunt…………..Tony rolling his eye’s in the dugout…They are shopping him.

  85. CardFanSince57 says:

    What a waste of vitality and effervescence!

  86. CardFanSince57 says:

    If Brendan were his .290-.300 self, the entire clubhouse would be really turned-on!

  87. blingboy says:

    Lets see if the big boppers do any better.

  88. blingboy says:

    Stealing with Albert at the plate????

  89. CardFanSince57 says:

    Matt’s beauty is but a complement the fact that Chris is now down to an average of 9 pitches per inning.

  90. CardFanSince57 says:

    All right Allen: No body out, no pressure..

  91. CardFanSince57 says:

    …no hit

  92. CardFanSince57 says:

    Can Yadier be 2 for 3?

  93. CardFanSince57 says:

    They’d better make room on that plane to the minors for Baez…

  94. CardFanSince57 says:

    How did Yadier get from first to third?

  95. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Boy these Phill’s are just whipping boys it seems………….Craig won’t bat again. His approach is very suspicious.

  96. CardFanSince57 says:

    So Chris grounded into a DP. Considering his cushion and his superior performance on the mound; so what?

  97. crdswmn says:

    What in the heck was Waino doing in the dugout? He looked like he was having spasms. :)

  98. CardFanSince57 says:

    You were right about the fact that, as of now, when Ludwick comes up; Craig goes down…

  99. blingboy says:

    Missed it 57, sorry. Hafta run an errand, enjoy the game.

  100. CardFanSince57 says:

    Uh, oh! Chris is back up to an average of 10 pitches per inning…

  101. CardFanSince57 says:

    All RIGHT (FINALLY)!

    Allen is now the only one in our starting lineup to remain hitless..

  102. crdswmn says:

    “Uh, oh! Chris is back up to an average of 10 pitches per inning…” Oh my Gawd. :)

  103. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    That is some embarrassing moment for Tony…………. trying to keep AP out of the db play he knows is coming…………….and he gets it any way…………………….in front of Holiday……………That is little league no matter how you look at it……….. if AP doesn’t swing at that grounder……….everyone is safe. Not a word in the Cardinal tv booth

  104. CardFanSince57 says:

    Very, very interesting…

  105. CardFanSince57 says:

    Contary to what one expects to be the natural order of things, stats that I’ve seen in the past prove that Chris gets tougher as the game progresses (especially in the later innings).

  106. CardFanSince57 says:

    Matt and Albert are now both at .310

  107. CardFanSince57 says:

    A 5 hitter after 7 innings (and only 82 pitches) is a superior start any way that you slice it…

  108. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    How will this team get better with plays like that from AP………..he wanted contact for the rbi. He is vulgarly self interested…………………….. Game after game he is nothing more than an opportunist. I can’t cut the guy any slack…………..

  109. CardFanSince57 says:

    He certainly got out-shined by Matt tonight!

    Hey, our Colby got a hit!

  110. JumboShrimp says:

    Westie is in normal form.
    He calls Albert Pujols “vulgar” and “little league.” Albert has indeed gotten on 2 times in 4 at bats and is leading the Cards in RBIs for the season.

    Please give us some more of that vulgar little league play, Albert!

  111. CariocaCardinal says:

    yes, we need to get better quickly. 7 straight wins against teams with winning records.

  112. CardFanSince57 says:

    At only 90 pitches, Chris will no doubt go in for the complete kill…

  113. crdswmn says:

    Well if you are going to criticize it’s more fun to use pejorative words. I do. :)

  114. blingboy says:

    I missed the play in question, what happened?

  115. CardFanSince57 says:

    Pejorative words add emphasis and reveal emotion! Nobody knows that better than the one who would hasten to warn, “Hell hath no fury than a crdswmn scorned”!

  116. CardFanSince57 says:

    Westy got pissed about the manner that Albert handled his last at bat…

  117. CardFanSince57 says:

    Flip feels that he must keep opening the wound… Little did the Fillies know after their four game sweep of the Reds, that they’e wheels would come off as soon as they hit the road.

  118. CardFanSince57 says:

    Evidently, Randy has no pity for the Fillies either…

  119. CardFanSince57 says:

    Matt’s turn will never come tonight… Chris shall presently finish ‘em off!

  120. CardFanSince57 says:

    Well, at only 90 pitches, I thought that Chris would surely go for the CG…

  121. CardFanSince57 says:

    I look at that double and consider that we have only one out… then I look into the mirror and see Alfred E. Neuman saying, “What me worry?”

  122. Brian Walton says:

    CC, minor point, but the first win of the streak was not against a winning team. Houston only wishes they had a winning record…

  123. CardFanSince57 says:

    All RIGHT! Bring on Fernando and let a future closer polish it off!

  124. CardFanSince57 says:

    A 5 pitch out is a great way to start back on a Major League mound: Right on, Fernando!

  125. CardFanSince57 says:

    “Good Morning! Good Afternoon! Good Night!” That’s how a Major League closer goes for a 3 pitch out and a lights out! Congratulations Chris, Congratulations Matt and Congratulations Fernando!

  126. crdswmn says:

    Salas is very impressive.

  127. CardFanSince57 says:

    When, pray tell, is the last time that we enjoyed a 7 game winning streak?

  128. blingboy says:

    Luddy went 1 for 3, HR-K-F9. In the same game Ankiel has 3 K’s and is 0-4. He is supposedly at AAA to rehab, but the Royals seem to have parked him there since its been 17 games now. Shouldn’t they have to put him thru waivers to essentially send him down?

  129. blingboy says:

    Would have been in 2008, 57.

  130. CardFanSince57 says:

    I’ve admired that young man both times that he had been with us earlier this season. We was good both those times and something tells me that they won’t be able to send him back down now. I truly believe that he is here to stay!

  131. CardFanSince57 says:

    I should say, “He was good both those times…”

  132. crdswmn says:

    Bitching at Phillies website to begin..3…2…1.

  133. CardFanSince57 says:

    Well, blingboy, 2008 seems like ages ago! This is really, really a great feeling! I can’t believe how our offense continues to fire on all cylinders! Chris got tonight what he has always deserved!

  134. blingboy says:

    W: Carpenter (11-3) L: Carpenter (0-1)

    Brian, how about asking Tom to look into winner/loser same name?

  135. CardFanSince57 says:

    Did I forget to say, “Congratulations, Randy!”?

  136. CariocaCardinal says:

    They can keep Ankiel on a rehab assignment for 20 days. he’s hit well there so I’m sure he’ll be back up. As a 6 year veteran he’d have to approve any assignment to the minors. I’m sure if cleared waivers he’d declare FA rather than go down to Omaha.

  137. Brian Walton says:

    bb, regarding post #128, if my memory serves me correctly, rehab stints can be up to 20 days for position players and 30 days for pitchers.

  138. CardFanSince57 says:

    I just got through gazing (gloating) at the box score and had not noticed that interesting coincidence, blingboy. I do know the results of the 3 times they faced each other at the plate:

    C Carpenter 3
    A Carpenter 0

  139. JumboShrimp says:

    Albert had his 10th stolen base. A hardworking man. SBs are unnecessary, but HE bestows them anyway.
    This web site is rich in posts disrespectful of Cards players (especially those who are Latin). Disgusting.

  140. CariocaCardinal says:

    Jumbo, no need to induce race. I may not agree with Westie but he (and others here) are equal opportunity criticizers.

  141. blingboy says:

    Thanks CC and BW. In that case, somebody drop a weight on Brendans toe, or run the tarp over him, anything.

  142. JumboShrimp says:

    CC, you are good natured and as innocent as a new born lamb. (Don’t ever change!)

  143. blingboy says:

    I missed Colby’s pinch hit, good to see.

  144. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Salas is sneaky fast……nice breaking pitch…………….Phillies are desperate at this point…….J-Roll is pouting………….the 25 million dollar man is no team leader. Halladay just pooped out. I have no question that it will be Craig that goes down……….. with plenty of apologies……….

    AP was featured on the Philly broadcast yesterday……….doing his warm-up with Oquendo in the cages………………..he wouldn’t let them stay for the top secret tee work……………

    Albert’s hitting faults are so “obvious”, his inability to make adjustments has everyone’s attention. He will not hit good pitching in the playoff should they come. Lozano would be a fool to take on the league over this guy………….. His commercial appeal is substantial though. I look for Lozano to make state a position first week in August. He will ask for a 4 yr extension at 120, nullifying the option yr………..it will be a take it or leave it offer……….this would effectively break up any collusion attempts which are obviously in play…………the record setting years in a big market is why A-Rod was paid so much………he will try to sell those after the Selig era and the new agreement union agreement in place…………. it is the only way to play it. The 3/4 yr deal would completely neutralize BD………….and that would completely reverse the market for him…

    The benefit…………..is maybe he would play baseball for this team instead of this ridiculous game he is playing…………. he could have piece of mind again. Albert is a nice guy……….no Rhodes scholarships offered…………that is your solution Lozano…..do it.

  145. blingboy says:

    I guess Brendan is latin on his mother’s side. Colby too.

  146. CardFanSince57 says:

    Thank you, Carioca! My elder daughter is married to a wonderful Mexican whom I affectionately call, “Mi Compa”! I hate all racism and I strenuously object to the idea that this honorable web site “is rich in posts disrespectful… especially of those who are Latin”.

    I’ve personlly attempted to stop personal attacks against two members and myself. This is a place where lovers of the Cardinals can freely be “equal opportunity criticizers” of the members of their team, not a place where they should be permitted to attack each other.

  147. blingboy says:

    Westy, the factor that can throw any gameplan or theory off track is the TLR factor. Is he back next year or is he not? If not, Albert doesn’t get the 3 spot no matter what. Albert will not want to head into FA in that kind of volatile results based environment. He has control over a lot this year, who knows about next year.

  148. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    57…………the water boys are just trying to be heard…………they are here for a reason.

    I used to enjoy my trips to Illinois as a child……….neither of my grand parents spoke English. They came from the Madera Islands.

    I’m still waiting to here from Brian about the disagreement between management and Brad Penny over his diagnosis. Sounds like he went and got a second opinion on the sly…….. what could possible be his motive in saying he is mortally wounded………and them saying he isn’t? Sounds like he thinks he is being shopped and is trying to put a stop to it.

  149. CardFanSince57 says:

    blingboy, concerning next year’s manager, Westy made us privy to a balloon that went up… Written all over it was the name, “Joe Torre”! The idea is certainly too good to ever be true, but it is certainly something I like to think about…

    Westy, I appreciate what you are sniffing-out concerning “the disagreement between management and Brad Penny over his diagnosis”.The entire affair really stinks of self-serving underhandedness…

  150. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    He has no control until the 8/1/10………..then he has control. He has veto. If Torre doesn’t do an extension with LA by seasons end……….he is coming here. Letting Tony go would further erode AP position……….throwing him into the open market if he should tantrum and ask for a trade. That is where is value in a down market would be realized…………BD has that play right in front of him. He will use it……………… Pujols was pitched to again tonight by bad pitchers……….and he still looked bad. I would recomend that those that can listen to the opposing teams broadcasts…………they don’t have a problem pointing out his weaknesses.

  151. blingboy says:

    W: Zane Smith (7-2), L: Bryn Smith (4-3)

    Pirates over Cards 6-1, May 29, 1991

  152. CardFanSince57 says:

    Hey, you’re buckin’ for Tom Orf’s job, blingboy! Thanks…

  153. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    BB………..Mo saying that they are looking for a personality to liven up a “quite club house” is saying what??????????????? As was predicted here……..we have broken into factions…………….it is also a very direct and open criticism of Tony…………it is now starting.

  154. Brian Walton says:

    bb, is that the last one or just one that you could find?

  155. blingboy says:

    My position has long been to do nothing about a new contract. Let Albert play through 2011. He will be worth the money thru 2011. He will never again be worth as much as he is worth right now, so by no means should Mo be in a hurry to talk about a contract. He will be worth less 1 1/2 years from now, perhaps a lot less, but less anyway.

  156. blingboy says:

    Brian, I scanned the schedule/results very quickly, could have missed one. That’s all I see going back 20 years.

  157. Brian Walton says:

    Referring to WCs post 148, I am sorry but I did not see your earlier question. CFS57′s prolific posting rate contributes to it becoming increasingly difficult for me to read every post.

    I have no inside info, but my guess would be that the Cards want Penny to pitch and he doesn’t. He probably needs a doc to support his position that he is hurt. I doubt a trade is in the offing. I would think the Cards just want and need him to pitch and earn his salary. But if he is truly injured and cannot perform, it seems more specifics are needed for everyone to understand and accept what is going on. It should be good for everyone to get more information and it isn’t like Penny is too busy or anything…

  158. blingboy says:

    No thanks 57, I’m claustrophobic.

  159. CardFanSince57 says:

    Brian, thanking you for being so gentle, I will definitely curb the “prolific posting rate” during ball games (I am assuming that the posts aside from the ball games are not the ones to which you are referring).

  160. CariocaCardinal says:

    The batboy is dillusionary again. TLR is going nowhere unless he wants to (unfortunately). BD would laugh Lozano out of the room if given a $33 million per proposal.

  161. Brian Walton says:

    Thanks for the research, bb.

    57, I was not trying to clip your wings. Just being honest. A lot of posts to follow.

  162. CardFanSince57 says:

    Although I must face the unpleasant fact that “TLR is going nowhere”, I nevertheless cannot prevent myself from imagining what life would be like with Joe Torre at the helm once again…

  163. Brian Walton says:

    I respect Joe Torre, but the guy just turned 70. Let’s move ahead, not backward.

  164. CardFanSince57 says:

    I hear you (damn it!)

  165. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Penny is only trying to control his own destiny……..Mark Mulder was forced to pitch to three batters, under duress…………he just wanted his free agency, they wanted a chance to move him.
    Penny doesn’t want to be traded now……….he re enters rested mid August to a team that needs him, and he looks good in the off season in search of a mufti year deal………….. His call for a neutral medical opinion (Andrew) is to prevent him from being smeared…………he knew this was a one year gig…………….maybe he see a little bit of whats going on here and doesn’t like it.

    Like swinging at a pitch inside and in the dirt creating a DP……………..trying not to get beat out of those rbi numbers…………..walks don’t pay it would seem……………………… Lozano must see where this is going. He will make a play.

    Joe will do a three yr contract…………….the perfect distraction…………….I would love to see that.

  166. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    It is one of the big concerns of owners to limit long range contacts (unsupported by steroids).

    Popular math is 4×30 being 120………..pleasing to the eye for a number of teams to agree that there would be no need to risk further exposure to litigation by the union. Bonds will be paid off in a settlement before the AP situation hits. Jeff Boris will be compensated for his efforts.

  167. blingboy says:

    Westy, are you thinking there will be an offer made before the end of this season?

  168. blingboy says:

    Matt is a second half guy. Albert will have a job staying ahead in RBIs, maybe homers too.

  169. CardFanSince57 says:

    blingboy: I certainly hope so… I truly love Albert, but while he is starting to represent our recent past, Matt is beginning to represent our imminent future. Matt has certainly supplied ample evidence that he could finish any (or all) of the next three seasons with a .335 AVG, 35 HR, 130 RBI, .400 OBP, .600 SLG and 1.000 OPS! Meanwhile, Albert is beginning to supply evidence that he could fall short of those benchmarks. If what Westy saw in Albert’s at-bat last night becomes true on a consistent basis, however, Matt will have a problem overtaking him. Moreover, if others on the team are noticing the same thing, such self-serving action would either bring the team down or cause the team to rally around a new leader…

    Ideally, Albert will enjoy the rest of his Hall of Fame career in a Musial-like way, in a Cardinals uniform; enjoying the praises heaped upon him, while handing the performance mantle over to Matt for three years and then over to another man for the following three years. It is all in the manner of how the building of our inner sterling character grapples with the ever-present lusts of our dark human nature.

  170. CariocaCardinal says:

    My support of signing Matt was based on the leverage it gave us with Pujols – the leverage to let him walk if necessary.

    If we sign Pujols for an amount near the $34 million additional for 3 years that Westie suggest the DeWitt would be willing to do (yes that is the math Westie!) this franchise is doomed in my opinion as I dont see a $120 million payroll in our future any time soon.

  171. CardFanSince57 says:

    In my opinion, with regard to the club’s economic future, Carioca’s assertion represents the loud, piercing voice of stark raving reality…

  172. Brian Walton says:

    I think the key point is that $34M from the Cards is folly.

  173. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Albert isn’t trying to game the system here. This game was established and exploited by the owners……….and still is. Scott Boras did not hook the owners with the A-Rod contract…. A faction of the owners saw a interesting opportunity to create an inflationary cycle…..one that they were familiar with manipulating in the energy market………… during this reigning in period, they will reap hundreds of millions of dollar of profit by exploiting the ” free market “……….. as the collusion against Barry Bonds seemed to draw sympathy and understanding from the public, he is no longer the poster boy for their “campaign”. AP is…………………………. Little known fact………..there was a major legal motion in favor of Barry Bonds in the same week Lozano flew the coup. The wheels continue to turn…………….AP is getting the stink beat out of him by BD in public opinion…………. For those extra two vague years in MH’s contract……..taking it from 90 million to 120……..BD lowered the risk or himself and the owners of an “obvious collusion”, to just a suspicious coincidence of the market…………… this completely removed AP’s major threat of discriminating against a noncompetitive organization. He also displayed the unity and tactics of the high end owners under but Selig’s leadership………….. Lozano is aware of this challenge. That is why he left BHSC. The high end of that group is old money and Hollywood merchandising. They were willing to take their share of the collusion money and more importantly, move ahead on certain international financial playgrounds………..

    Pujols is a simple guy………a good guy……… a generous guy…… he is just caught up in a game that he doesn’t really understand………….. He is obviously at war with “reason”. Lozano is behind his selfish and factional behaviors at this point. Molina is the one that really telegraphs the behind the scenes dialogs. Tony too for that matter. ………………….. Tony’s decision to send the runner last night, was more complex than it seemed…………he knew Albert had been closed out of the spotlight by the HR’s and would likely chase. He was just trying avoid the obvious knowing DP ground ball would be the likely outcome, AP swinging at a pitch that nearly bounced on the plate at 2/2. The strike out was low and inside out of the hand, never a threat. But it would have been a walk………and those don’t pay…………. this has become ridiculous behavior…………….Lozano has to be watching………………… The way to end it is just to ask for 30 million a year for 3/4 years………..avoiding the collusion………selling the record setting years after the dust settles. If Lozano just sets that simple position on the table, it changes everything, including Albert’s obsession with not being cheated out of his “myth”. It would sorely tempt a number of teams who know they could market AP.

  174. CariocaCardinal says:

    AP is 1.5 years from free agency yet he is the poster boy now for collusion? It would be illegal for teams to be illegally colluding against him!

    $30 million per for 3/4 might be a possibility after his current contract (including option) expires. For it to replace an option year is ludicrous. Actually sounds like the batboy is back peddaling though.

  175. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    This is the point that the moderator steps in and clarifies the escalating distraction caused by” his” comment in excepting the completely arbitrary figure of 34 million that is dripping out of the “water cooler” To the casual reader……….30 million a yr on a shorter termed contract is all that was ever suggested. Eliminating the 16 million dollar option yr is one of the key concessions. I won’t do this again.

  176. Brian Walton says:

    WC, here is how the numbers work. In 2011, all the Cards have to pay Pujols is $16M. If instead, they pay him $30M for that season and each of the next three, their outlay would be $120M in total.

    That would be the same as if they paid him $16M next season and $34.67M in each of the three following seasons, for a total of the same $120M for four years.

    You are correct that they would not do the latter, but it helps to illustrate how the former case you suggested is likely not realistic, either, since it is the same amount in total over the same number of years.

  177. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    What they could Pay??????????? and have nothing in the end. …………Albert feeding on his martyrdom, hitting 60 hrs in 2011……………. Tear the team apart. Any agreement possible, using the option yr would have a huge signing bonus. They could say whatever they want. Breaking the Selig coalition is the objective for Lozano……….he seems to think he can do it. He has a huge number of options after the 31st………..some would be absorbing some risk……….but the rewards are good…………..this very much has to do with the union agreements coming in 2011 as Bud’s tenure ends………………

    No player’s skill are worth all that money……………their marketing potential makes it a reality. Even with the Steinberriner / Boras blowup………..A-Rod still made 30 /40 extra million added for the “focus” on his records run……………..that precedent is what is being argued in the business. It is what Pujols wants a share of. It has nothing to do with on field activities.
    Lozano is quiet now, but he won’t let AP be “choked out” by a public relation attack marginalizing AP’s profitability in the St Louis market place, by BD. Albert is not dealing with this situation……..he is playing bad baseball. He is losing. Lozano will enter after the 31st. Watch. He will simply put up a number that will hang there, compromising all of the Cardinal and MLB advertising campaigns surrounding Albert’s mythological status. Every time they call him Zeus, add another dollar to the sentiment that he deserve as much as A-Rod. The game is at had…………………………….and whats more, I couldn’t care less……………I hate the baseball that being played…………I hate to see the constant pressure being applied to whitewash the baseball end of it………. Albert is being destroyed for profit by at this point by people that know its happening……………..and I said that 6 months ago. The team doesn’t need that……….it has pitching……which is tiring…………………………..

    . I look for Garcia to have problems tonight that began to manifest last week. As desperate as the Phillie’s are, and as flat, if they catch him in the early inning, it could get ugly……….lets hope that is just a false premonition.

  178. Nutlaw says:

    While Pujols is undoubtedly swinging at some bad pitches this season, let’s not get so worked up over it that we forget that he is leading the majors in walks on the year.

  179. Brian Walton says:

    CC, in post #170, you mention you don’t see the Cardinals taking a major increase in payroll. I am not nearly as sure as you seem to be. I could easily see a scenario where a Pujols mega-contract is used as justification to jack up ticket prices. The park is mostly full now and probably would remain very close even with higher ticket prices and a continuing competitive team.

  180. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Walks are admirable……..especially when they load the base with one out. Lets not overlook the obvious fact that AP wasn’t going to take a walk.

    Nut, put up the location chart on the at-bat in question. He was being pitched around, he knew it, Tony knew it, Phillie’s knew it. He is in a bad mental state. That’s why Tony started Lopez. He knew AP would chase.

    After reviewing the situation and video………….it was worse than I remembered. He broke every common sense rule in baseball…………trying to collect those rbi’s .

  181. WestCoastbirdWatcher says:

    Thanks Nut……….it looked like that last pitch was farther inside. Guess not. The 2/2 pitch that he fouled looked a lot lower. That shows you have far out in front and how much he had pulled off because he barely touched it.

    The last strike was never close to being a good pitch. He finished the swing before it got there.

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