Summarizing a Twitter discussion about rules regarding trading of recently-drafted players.
During Wednesday afternoon’s four-hour snooze-a-thon that ended with the Arizona Diamondbacks stopping the St. Louis Cardinals’ eighth attempt to sweep a three-game series this season, the Twitterverse came alive with discussion about the possibility of the Cardinals trading 2009 first-round draft pick Shelby Miller.
Whether for Cliff Lee, Dan Haren or anyone else, a question was posed as to whether or not a drafted player could be dealt within his first year as a professional. (Trading picks prior to draft day remains against MLB rules.)
Previously, some had thought the restriction lasted until a year after draft day. Others, including me, recalled the “Pete Incaviglia Rule”, aka Rule 3(b)(7). Explained on MLB.com http://bit.ly/bSmjdi and at Scout.com http://bit.ly/bru5BU, it basically states a team must wait until a year has passed after a player has signed before he can be traded.
That led to a tweet from Derrick Goold (Twitter @dgoold) of the Post-Dispatch questioning whether a player could be dealt as a “player to be named later” (PTBNL) before his initial year was up. This is especially relevant since Miller’s signing by the Cardinals was not announced until August 17, 2009. He is currently pitching for the Quad Cities River Bandits of the Midwest League.
In his searching, Goold came to the conclusion such a trade could be allowed if the player was playing for the drafted organization until he was announced as the PTBNL and moved.
Regular reader CariocaCardinal (@cariocacardinal) found an example which proves that such a trade would be within the rules. It involves pitcher Jeremy Bonderman, now of the Detroit Tigers.
Here is Bonderman’s chronology:
- June 5, 2001: Drafted in the first round, 26th overall, by the Oakland A’s.
- August 22, 2001: Signed with the A’s but did not play that season.
- April 2002: Began playing career in A-Advanced ball with Modesto.
- July 5, 2002: Three-way, seven-player trade announced among the A’s, Detroit and the Yankees including Jeff Weaver, Carlos Pena, Ted Lilly and others. The seventh was a player to be named later to go from the A’s to the Tigers.
- August 22, 2002: On his one year signing anniversary, Bonderman was announced as the PTBNL and moved to Detroit. He was assigned to A-Advanced Lakeland, where he made two appearances to close out the season.
One other small point. Players to be named later must be identified within six months of the trade date.
Conclusion: It appears there is nothing that would preclude the Cardinals from dealing Miller if they so choose. While that point is apparently not debatable, the wisdom of such a move clearly remains fodder for debate and discussion.
Others who participated in the Twitter discussion included @C70, @sporer and @MatthewHLeach.
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Reasons for trading Shelby: his first season of pro ball has been non-brilliant; he is years from the majors. He was a glamor name last June, so it may be best to trade him now, lest he injure his arm or otherwise lose value. And the Cards want to win the division while they still enjoy the services of the immortal Albert and need to add helpers.
Reasons not to trade Shelby: ??
Couldn’t get squat.
I heard the Mariners are looking to trade Lee for a power hitter.
Wonder if they’d be interested in taking on a $120M contract?
Man bites dog
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/06/red-sox-sign-rich-hill.html
Good one BB……………………… In case you haven’t figured out the nature of the Cardinals draft investment shell game……….watch this one. No one that has anything we could use is going to give it up for Shellby Miller. We don’t have anything really to give away except a willingness to take on salary……………………….does that sound plausible to a team that signed Miles………..We just got shut down by Arron Heilman………………….give me a break here.
This was posted around 10pm at MLBtraderumors.com by Ben Nicholson-Smith:
“Two executives told MLB.com’s Peter Gammons that there’s no way the Twins will give up pitcher Kyle Gibson this summer. Like Cardinals prospect Shelby Miller, Gibson is a 2009 draft pick who signed late, so he would have to be dealt as a ‘player to be named later’ in any July trade. ”
The Gammons article mentions Gibson and Miller but not the PTBNL angle. Wonder if Mr. Nicholson-Smith is a TCNBlog reader?? or maybe he’s in the twitter loop.
Need to keep an eye on Cards pitching these next 3 days. How will Hawke follow up his success? How will Garcia follow up his failure? How will Carp’s arm injury play out? Stay tuned.
It is quite obvious that the rumor repeating (not rumor reporting) sites monitor the Twitter traffic very closely. Within a few minutes of a beat writer breaking news, these sites amplify the signal. Personally, the only time I have a real problem with it is when people down the line get sloppy and either don’t recognize any source or worse, misrepresent the repeater as supposedly having been the original source. That happens too often.
This is no rumor:
Our beloved expatriat, Scott Rolen, helped the first place Reds beat the Cubs this afternoon 3 to 2 (going 2 for 5 with his 2nd triple & 54th RBI of the season).
Whether we are nipping at the Reds butts (a half-game back) or coughing in their exhaust (a game-and-a-half back) will depend upon the answer to blingboy’s first question…
What? Brendan leading-off again? Well, I suppose that there was success the last time that Flip was our de facto Lead-Off…
ss Ryan
3b Lopez
1b Pujols
lf Holliday
rf Stavinoha
cf Rasmus
c Molina
p Hawksworth
2b Schumaker
The closest thing we have to a hot hitter is in the nine hole.
He’s one (in addition to Flip) whom Westy accurately described as finally fulfilling his role…
I hadn’t noticed that yesterday.
Are you suggesting that Flip is suffering from narcolepsy, along with Albert and Matt?
Bernie hit the bullseye with that 57. Lack of mental focus, lack of emotional energy. Tony has no way of knowing who is going to show up on any given day.
Every once in a while a certain article will rise above the clamorous din of explanations and perspectives to ignite “a moment of clarity”. Bernie’s did precisely that…
What this team needs is a motivational speaker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsTTvKWPZGw&feature=related
I have an agonizingly slow dial-up operation, so I will have to wait until after the game to view the link. I certainly agree, that a fire needs to be lit under more than a few butts…
Skip can’t bat leadoff against a lefty, BB.
Perhaps we could call up Craig, Mather, Jay and Anderson. Let them play everyday until the break. We’d have a bench of Albert, Matt, Colby and Yadi. Let them rub up the balls. I could live with that. Never happen.
Facts can be so pesky, but good point Nut. Second inning on leadoff is ok I guess.
Skip doing “Second inning on leadoff”? That’s mighty ambitious, blingboy… mighty, ambitious!
If you’re going to think, think big.
We are facing some very serious hitting tonight: You’ve just witnessed an infield single by a particularly speedy arch-typical Leadoff man…
Let’s not talk up the bad guys. They stink. If Fielder was two inches taller he’d be round.
I can’t believe how Blake fooled two terrifying long-ballers in a row!
Then he polished-up the inning by getting the mighty Braun to ground-out… Damn! Blake is looking even sharper than the last time out (when he faced a much sorrier team)!
McGehee is poison!
The Brewer announcers, acknowledging the applause for JImmy Baseball, are praising the St. Louis fans…
That pick-off was strictly heads-up!
Can-o-corn blown by the wind. We’ll show them how real sluggers hit them.
Matt looked sharp and the opposite field smack went to the warning track: But, damn it, ya gotta hit ‘em where they ain’t!
I really think that Yadier was robbed… He was smiling, ONLY because Jimmy Baseball was the centerfielder who had trapped it.
Blake just struck-out a guy who can hit better than he can pitch…
Richie Weeks does not strike-out too often: Blake is simply looking sharp…
Yeah, I’m really impressed with Hawksworth so far. Eight swinging strikes in three innings is pretty darned good.
Ace Randal Wolff ………………… They will score in the transition innings 5 thru 7…….. we better wake up, or we are setting the stage.
For the time being, Blake is going through their boppers like a knife through butter…
He got the mighty Braun to ground-out for the second consecutive time… (Braun is at his deadliest on the road)
“Ace” Wolf is having a typically mediocre year (presently at 4.77)
We have our OBP guys up next. If Wolff has an 8 pitch inning we’re doomed.
Not to mention a couple of slugging percentage guys…
A first pitch out is not very impessive (it adds to the fear of that “8 pitch inning”)
With Pujols not hittin’ ‘em where they ain’t, Wolf now has 4 pitches on the inning…
Uh, oh…
That was what, 7 pitches? The meat is tofu.
Common guys………….how does this end? He’s at 44 pitches………7 innings anyway. Do we have any bunter’s…………….. their catching is weak…but we have no base runners.
I am praying for another walk-off E-3.
That hurt… bad!
See how nice their swings are………..that was 8#………….takes it deep, with extension.
Like I said, fellas, we’re facing some serious hitting tonight…
Couple of dazzling defensive plays by Flip and Matt. Where’s Curly Joe?
Is there a Doctor in the house? Surely, something for narcolepsy can be given to the top-half of our line-up…
Perhaps the bottom half will give them a wake up call.
Wow! Our second hit: Now we got them on the run…
Dave Duncan said something to the effect that good hitters hit the mistakes, bad hitters foul them off.
Once again, we have the inability to hit ‘em where they ain’t. The result? Yadier sinks to .233…
Thank you for relaying that: I will certainly remember it…
I think I understand the narcolepsy problem, this team puts itself to sleep.
The great prophet said, “They will score in the transition innings 5 thru 7″. And, behold! ‘Twas in the 5th, that they scored 2 more…
Thirteen swinging strikes for Hawksworth in six innings. Very, very nice. I don’t blame him for the home runs, either. Those weren’t bad pitches.
Under normal circumstances (when our boppers are not reeling from impotence and narcolepsy), Blake’s performance would be sufficient for a win. I am very, very impressed with him!
Doesn’t 6 innings, 6 hits and 3 ER qualify for a “quality start”? His 7 K’s are MOST impressive!
1-2 and she’s outta here – to dead center! At least we won’t be shut-out…
Albert’s 19th home run now leads the National League…
Nobody out and the tying run is at the plate (with the Golfer on deck)…
Wow! Nobody out, runners on the corners and the Great Golfer is at bat!
Yeah, the kid wanted to golf so badly that Wolf got him on that “down and in” pitch!
With only one out and runners on the corner, the table is set for Yadier to break out of it in a particularly meaningful way… This is definitely NOT the time for one of his doubleplay grounders…
Colby couldn’t give up the full swing…….that’s the price……… If Ludwick is down this long, why not just 15 day him retroactive to his injury and get a bat up here?
All Star
Wouldn’t you know it? A classic Molina doubleplay!
Somebody has to hit a sac fly…right…….Molina goes down just to make contact……..he’s a catcher.
Speaking of impressive pitchers… I really like Fernando!
See how deep Fielder took that ball
What is the chance of this happenning: We go 1-3 against the Brewers and the win is 11-2 and everybody bulks up their stats. Colby would hit a couple for sure, catch back up to Albert.
Pitching around Lopez to get to AP…………your seeing it……..
Beware the Axe Man…
The Axe Man is a future Trevor Hoffman… In a couple of years, Miller Park will be playing, “Hells Bells” whenever he comes in to turn-off the lights…
“Oh, for…!” Our All-Star catcher is now down to .231…
(A prediction made Sunday evening, June 27th)…
When the dust settles on Monday, the 5th of July, I predict that we will have gone 3-4 and that the Reds will have gone 4-3. The result:
46-37 Reds
44-38 Cardinals (1 1/2 games behind)
I still keep hoping.
Ah, yes.. “Hope springs eternal!
If we can begin firing on all cylinders, we’ll put together some decent winning streaks, surpass the Reds and win the division.
Bottom of the ninth, two out, we need one more base runner to have a chance. We send up a slow footed .230 hitter who has been rather cold. That’s the best we could do? We don’t really have a roster equipped to take advantage of a chance to win. The grand strategy relies on the boppers to bop. If they don’t, there is no capacity for a plan B. Other than hope for errors. Tony, as usual, talks about how well the other team pitched.
Wolf enjoyed a very, VERY unusually good night. Believe me, I’ve watched him in numerous games this year for the Brewers and he is a bona fide mediocre.
Gallardo (their Ace) is their ONLY decent starter. Axford is a budding star closer. Aside from those two, the entire staff is crap. They are an offensive powerhouse with one of the worst pitching staffs in the major leagues.
The quality of the pitcher faced doesn’t seem to matter at all most of the time. When we mail it in a AA guy can smoke us. Tonight we were the Yugo of baseball teams, glad I didn’t buy a ticket.
Mediocre pitchers are too often making minced meat of our narcoleptic Murderers’ Row…
blingboy issued the caveat that we need to look closely at the Cardinals performance this weekend, asking the important questions, “How will Hawke follow up his success? How will Garcia follow up his failure? How will Carp’s arm injury play out? Stay tuned.”
We now know that Blake Hawksworth followed-up his success with another success (he lost ONLY because he got nothing more than a single run of support from one of the league’s most vaunted offenses).
Judging by the Big League poise that we’ve witnessed in Jaime, we have no doubt that he will come to th mound as confident as ever. The problem emanates from the fact that we are now at mid-season, when many clubs have documented his attributes and limitations. If he has been solved to any degree, Milwaukee’s hitters will prove to be one of his biggest challenges.