A cursory glance at how the St. Louis Cardinals pitchers batting eighth compares to when they bat ninth by season does not leave a positive impression.
The lesser-noticed of this week’s lineup changes by St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa is the return of the pitcher hitting eighth. Having been used extensively in multiple seasons now, it is more familiar than the revolutionary idea of moving Matt Holliday into the number two spot. Holliday had never batted second, even as a pinch hitter, in his first 915 career games – until now.
Prior to Wednesday’s game, La Russa noted a reason to bat the pitcher eighth is to increase the chances that Holliday will come up with runners on base – the ninth and first hitters.
The pitcher himself is surely not the only or even the primary reason for the lineup change, yet the data shows that batting eighth has a marked negative impact on the pitchers’ results. In three of the four years in which there were significant at-bats in both spots, the pitchers performed substantially better when hitting ninth (in bold below).
St. Louis Cardinals, pitcher batting eighth vs. ninth, average and OPS
| PH8 | PH9 | PH8 | PH9 | ||
| BA | BA | OPS | OPS | ||
| 2010 | 0.143 | 0.150 | 0.348 | 0.400 | |
| 2009 | 0.135 | 0.163 | 0.338 | 0.439 | |
| 2007 | 0.216 | 0.185 | 0.495 | 0.449 | |
| 1998 | 0.106 | 0.192 | 0.327 | 0.445 |
Here are the detailed stats during the La Russa era, with pitcher hitting eighth listed first. As always, thanks to researcher Tom Orf for the data.
| PH8 | G | PA | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | IBB | SO | HBP | SH | SF | ROE | GDP | BA | OBP | SLG | OPS |
| 2010 | 18 | 47 | 42 | 6 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 11 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 0.143 | 0.182 | 0.167 | 0.348 |
| 2009 | 55 | 137 | 126 | 17 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 5 | 2 | 0 | 47 | 1 | 8 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.135 | 0.155 | 0.183 | 0.338 |
| 2008 | 153 | 379 | 325 | 57 | 10 | 1 | 2 | 30 | 15 | 0 | 139 | 0 | 38 | 1 | 1 | 7 | 0.175 | 0.211 | 0.231 | 0.442 |
| 2007 | 55 | 116 | 97 | 21 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 7 | 4 | 0 | 52 | 0 | 15 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.216 | 0.248 | 0.247 | 0.495 |
| 2006 | ||||||||||||||||||||
| 2005 | ||||||||||||||||||||
| 2004 | ||||||||||||||||||||
| 2003 | ||||||||||||||||||||
| 2002 | ||||||||||||||||||||
| 2001 | ||||||||||||||||||||
| 2000 | ||||||||||||||||||||
| 1999 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
| 1998 | 78 | 191 | 161 | 17 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 15 | 9 | 0 | 70 | 0 | 21 | 0 | 2 | 4 | 0.106 | 0.153 | 0.174 | 0.327 |
| 1997 | ||||||||||||||||||||
| 1996 |
| PH9 | G | PA | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | IBB | SO | HBP | SH | SF | ROE | GDP | BA | OBP | SLG | OPS |
| 2010 | 47 | 111 | 100 | 15 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 6 | 4 | 0 | 32 | 1 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.150 | 0.190 | 0.210 | 0.400 |
| 2009 | 101 | 244 | 208 | 34 | 8 | 1 | 2 | 12 | 7 | 0 | 65 | 2 | 27 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.163 | 0.198 | 0.240 | 0.439 |
| 2008 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 | 0.000 |
| 2007 | 97 | 201 | 173 | 32 | 6 | 0 | 1 | 13 | 5 | 0 | 57 | 1 | 22 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 0.185 | 0.212 | 0.237 | 0.449 |
| 2006 | 150 | 364 | 305 | 53 | 9 | 0 | 2 | 23 | 18 | 0 | 98 | 2 | 39 | 0 | 1 | 6 | 0.174 | 0.225 | 0.223 | 0.448 |
| 2005 | 152 | 393 | 344 | 56 | 12 | 1 | 2 | 22 | 17 | 0 | 94 | 0 | 30 | 2 | 8 | 4 | 0.163 | 0.201 | 0.221 | 0.422 |
| 2004 | 156 | 381 | 337 | 53 | 11 | 0 | 0 | 18 | 9 | 0 | 108 | 1 | 30 | 4 | 7 | 7 | 0.157 | 0.179 | 0.190 | 0.369 |
| 2003 | 152 | 382 | 319 | 65 | 11 | 2 | 2 | 27 | 15 | 0 | 108 | 3 | 44 | 1 | 9 | 4 | 0.204 | 0.246 | 0.270 | 0.515 |
| 2002 | 156 | 365 | 320 | 52 | 9 | 0 | 2 | 15 | 10 | 0 | 115 | 1 | 33 | 1 | 6 | 4 | 0.163 | 0.190 | 0.209 | 0.399 |
| 2001 | 156 | 370 | 326 | 44 | 12 | 0 | 2 | 22 | 13 | 0 | 135 | 0 | 31 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 0.135 | 0.168 | 0.190 | 0.358 |
| 2000 | 152 | 398 | 333 | 45 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 17 | 26 | 0 | 122 | 0 | 39 | 0 | 7 | 9 | 0.135 | 0.198 | 0.174 | 0.372 |
| 1999 | 155 | 360 | 323 | 47 | 10 | 1 | 0 | 15 | 7 | 0 | 124 | 0 | 30 | 0 | 6 | 5 | 0.146 | 0.164 | 0.183 | 0.346 |
| 1998 | 77 | 195 | 167 | 32 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 11 | 0 | 58 | 0 | 17 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0.192 | 0.242 | 0.204 | 0.445 |
| 1997 | 155 | 359 | 321 | 64 | 12 | 1 | 0 | 23 | 15 | 0 | 106 | 1 | 22 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0.199 | 0.237 | 0.243 | 0.480 |
| 1996 | 160 | 399 | 335 | 58 | 13 | 0 | 1 | 27 | 17 | 0 | 140 | 1 | 44 | 2 | 5 | 4 | 0.173 | 0.214 | 0.221 | 0.435 |
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It seems lately that it has provided some interesting opportunities………….It definitely weakens 7th but it also energizes Ryan at 9…………….. if anything it seems to represent a bad frame of mind for Tony. I think you could easily correlate the numbers to explain a number of variables………it seems like the batting average of the 6th and 7th and 9th and 1st prior to and after the change might be interesting.
What has the position player hitting 9th done vs. hitting 8th? Can’t look at one without the other would seem.
Last night in the clutch Matt came apart like a cheap suit. I’m not so sure even moving him down would help. You can’t hide an 800 pound gorilla in the corner with a lampshade on his head.
I would be in favor of the three way platoon with Stav and Schu.
It would be good to give Stavinoha and Winn each one start per week in LF. If either hits, he can get a second start per week.
TLR can make me happy by benching an underperformer for every game. He can choose among 3 great candidates: Schumaker, Holliday, and Ryan. At least one of them needs to be riding the pines each night.
Carioca’s right. The point of batting the pitcher 8th has never been about the pitcher’s batting statistics. It’s to improve the production out of the 9th spot and, in turn, provide more opportunities with men on base for the core of the lineup.
I thought I clearly acknowledged above that the pitcher’s results are not the reason for doing it. It doesn’t mean looking at that subset of results aren’t at least of mild interest, though. I will be posting the position player data coming up.
BB, the MH issues appears to be based in a weakness or a lack cohesiveness by the coaching staff. He started to show signs of “adjustment” only to revert back is his usual solutions. The real issue here isn’t his right or wrong approach. Its whether he is emotionally secure enough in this environment to be open to the necessary adjustments. The pressure that’s keeping MM and staff from demanding that he experiment with their solutions is the culprit…………….where is its source? Is it Tony worried about a precedent that might reflect on AP “island mentality” concerning AP’s own accountability or responsiveness concerning changes?………………….. Is there pressure from the Top Side…….insecure about possible damage to their investment by changing what they bought?……………………………………. I’m thinking that all of these are considerations………unfortunately completely independent of “competitive baseball reasoning”………….. he is getting the same pitch sequences now by everyone…….if opponents pitching is in the top 50%, he is an out. In the Bottom 50 %, he is scratching out his singles with the occasional gapper…………………That will not change…………he must adjust………
No where to hide him BB………….all the peccadilloes are piling up. And yet, BD is making money selling them…….. he has a barbecue filled with scapegoats a roasting on the spit. Lets hope we can keep our own RC in the cockpit and off the spit.
Brian/6 — the four years you compare, have less than 500 PA between them. Not to mention that there’s a non-insignificant chance that La Russa leaves the better hitting pitchers (Wainwright) 9th in the order than their worse hitting counterparts. I don’t think you can draw anything conclusive from this data without controlling for more variables.
The pitcher becomes a more desirable target for resolving base runner complications……there by guaranteeing a more intense and targeted pitch selection. With less than two outs, that entices the sac bunt and its defensive pitches. If that isn’t shown, the flirtation with the double play ball becomes an issue…………………………….in truth, no different than 9th. The real difference is that it reaches farther into the pitch options for the RBI producers when the PB8th……….add the human double play machine at 7th………….and we are a weaker team.
I have been surprised to see how good teams exploit our lineup weaknesses. Torre had no qualms about pitching around one and sometimes 2 players to target an out or a DP possibility. That’s all that Forrest Gump has to say about that.
Vintage Westy:
“…all the peccadilloes are piling up. And yet, BD is making money selling them…….. he has a barbecue filled with scapegoats a’roastin’ on the spit”
– Priceless!
With regard to Matt and his obvious slump, it is true that “there is no where to hide him”. For the short term, I remain firm in the belief that the best outcome would be produced by benching him for a couple of games, followed by an indefinite stint in the 5 Slot. For the long term, fans must be educated with the reality of slumps which can hit the very best of players. It may be a comparison of an apple with an orange, but I think a remembrance of Stan Musial’s slump may help put into perspective what Matt is struggling through…
After winning the batting championship in 1957 (with .351) and batting .337 the following year, The Man plummeted in 1959 to a humiliating .255! It took him a couple of seasons to get back to a more Musial-like .330 (1962 – the year before he retired). We’ve got Matt for at least 6 years and, even if it takes a couple of seasons for him to regain his power stroke, his proven abilities make the wait worthwhile. We (he!) expected to be the great Clean-Up artist of expectations. I must believe that HE is just as disappointed (and pissed-off) as WE are. Let us gingerly place the slumping slugger in the 5th spot and then trust that our patience will be greatly rewarded.
Albert is slugging 100 pts below last year and 75 below his career avg and he’s still among the league leaders in RBIs and homers. That being said, on a team featuring Albert and Matt Holliday the team leader in multi-hit games is rookie David Freese, who IMO has been the most consistent offensive performer through 66 games (40% of the season). As good as Carp and Wainy are, it would be hard to dispute that the most consitent starter has been rookie Garcia. The only other guy to clearly overachieve is rookie Stavinoah, excelling as a PH.
So what gives here? We have been given to understand, supported by last year’s results, that the Albert dominated, all business all the time, veteran oriented cliquish clubhouse dynamic stifles rookies, leaving them on the outside looking in. Maybe last year, not this year. Why?
That why has been bugging me. The rookies are different. Last year’s rookies are continuing to have problems, Ryan vastly more so than Colby. The other difference is the center of gravity. Last year it was Albert with nothing to skew the pull. This year there is Matt, and more behind the scene Big Mac. I also suspect that easy going Luddy has taken advantage of the gravitational turbulence to establish his own orbit. While this turn of events may provide the new guys with a less intimidating environment, it may be disorienting for others, like Skip for example.
Another possible layer is the relationship between the big stars. Imagine King Kong scaling the empire state building and when he gets to the top there is another Kong peeking over the top at him from the opposite side. That would be unlikely to end well. And put yourself in Fay Wray’s shoes, all the way up in Kong’s clutches she’s thinking things could not possibly be worse. Wrong. We have Kongs and we have Wrays.
There has recently been a bit of a beneath the radar feather ruffling regarding the Albert/Matt relationship issue. I’m not a responsible journalist, so I can deal in rumor and scuttlebut. A local journalist who writes and blogs about the Cards stated mater-of-factly that Albert and Matt don’t get along. No attribution. That doesn’t mean it isn’t true. More mainstream guys, like Bernie M., have clucked disapprovingly, but have not flat out said its not true, nor offered any hard evidence either. So who knows. But there is the chance its a factor. I cannot say I have heard any more likely theory for Matt’s offensive constipation.
I’m not sure what to make of all this, but it makes me wonder if shifting the lineup around is a waste of time. Also, the Tony we saw at the post-game is wrong for the job.
I had one get filtered. If it ever shows up, the last thought, about Tony, got cut off at the knees because my wife saw a mouse. I’ll straighten it out if it ever shows up.
This is the premium line up 57…….balanced for our present reality.
1) Lopez/Schumacker ……….Lopez can’t be overused…..we knew it and that realization shouldn’t be hard to grasp. Skip is a peccadillo…….
2) and 3) Colby and Freese in rotation depending on pitching match ups. Freese is the best hitter on the team…….Colby needs to have someone pinching his ear to acknowledge game situations. It would be worth the trouble.
4) Albert………….deal with it big guy, its who you are…….cut the crap and earn your pay where ever you may find work.
5) Ludwick is the 5th hitter on a winning team…….may as well get to it.
6) Matt can live with this, until he gets interested in baseball again…… no use having him bear the burden of letting everyone down………this is a good place to pick people up.
7) Ryan………….just to keep Molina away from Holiday.
9) Pitchers…….except Wainwright who should bat third when he pitches so he doesn’t get screwed by these sleepers.
This lineup would balance the chemistry through necessity. I’m tired of seeing the rogue independents like Luddy and Colby and in some ways David having a field day amongst the pillars of cash rising off the field…………then folding when the bets are placed.
I don’t think that even blingboy can shoot holes in your batting order, Westy. The ONLY modifications that I would make:
- Hitting pitchers in the 8th slot (Although I quite agree that Wainwright’s proven ability with the bat has earned him that coveted 3 Slot whenever he pitches, we all know that your idea is much too radical for anyone outside our rather robust “think tank”)
- Keep Molina in the 7 Slot (his penchant for the opposite field blooper and fly will eventually take the place of his proclivity to ground into double-plays)
- Keep Brendan at 8 and 9 – dependent upon the batting prowess of the pitcher (he seems to be regaining his stroke there)
Wainwright to 3rd spot to defend his competitive honor isn’t about anything more than reminding all the other losers to strap it on. Molina’s “penchant’s” are outweighed by his DP proclivity.. My conscious is clear.
Damn, Westy! Your impatience and demand for absolute perfection rivals our buddy, blingboy!
Now that’s a complement.!!!
…and your ruthless wickedness rivals the Devil!
Westy, my preceding remark was made with all seriousness aside…
Emotionally, I am in one hundred percent agreement with your suggested (demanded) batting order!
I wonder if the Fredbird suit would fit? Stray thought, ignore that.
I admire the effort put into the lineup Westy, but the rationalle for Holliday 6th is a little thin. With four worthies ahead, he would repeatedly step up with the bases clogged. Any day now he is going to step into the box, see all those ducks, and wet himself. Then where would we be.
He is hitting around .285 but only .217 with runners on (and .189 with RISP), so his avg with no one on must be over .300. I suggest leadoff. His OBP is better than Skip and Flip. He walks, his K/9 is similar to theirs. He can run ok. With the pitcher 9, Yadi 8 and Ryan 7, there would almost never be anyone on base.
Holliday/Wynn
Rasmus
Freese
Pujols
Ludwick
Flip/Skip
Ryan
Molina
An alternative, to put Colby’s power in the heart, but not next to Albert:
Holliday/Wynn
Freese
Pujols
Ludwick
Rasmus
blingboy, your reasoning with regard to placing Matt at Lead-Off is unassailable (I wish that I would have thought to dig as deeply as you did). But, alas, you KNOW that such thinking would be dismissed as radical. Demoting Yadier to ninth is right up Westy’s ally (and definitely in line with my emotions). But, alas, you know THAT would be unconsionable in the unreasoning minds of those who worship him as one whose faults must never receive notice or corrective discipline.
I just read an entry in St. Louis Today by a fellow named, “Miszourian”, and wondered what you guys think of it…
“Matt Holliday is probably thinking I grew up a Cardinals fan in Oklahoma, and always wanted to play in St.Louis. He is probably thinking he wants to do very well hitting for the Cardinals, and is pressing so much he is not using his normal hitting technique. His bad start in Oakland was attributed to McGwire stopping his leg lift. Perhaps since that same leg lift is causing this problem, Matt should use McGwire’s adjustment last year, and keep his foot on the ground, lightly lift the toe, and hit. Just a thought. It couldn’t be any worse, could it?”
My thought is that Matt is not there yet, as far as really buying into letting anyone guide him back to the path of righteousness. He’s not a Colby. He’s an experienced veteran former batting champ and big swinging d***.
My filtered out post is there now, posted at 7:09.
I just filtered it back in, without mentioning you (because I substituted “big swinging d***” with the epithet, “big bopper”).
I meant a previous one 57, up above at 7:09.
Well, I thought your response was worth inserting into that discussion (presuming that I had your blessing).
Today Albert appeared at an event with Stan Musial. Tony and some other guys were there. A ball game for teams of kids with Downe Syndrome. On a very rare day off I’d have been in my lazy boy with a cold one. Nothing I have ever said on the blog should be taken as critical of anyone as a person.
I hear you, blingboy
Reading your post number 11 was interesting BB. It would be foolish to point out some truths here because we have a very practiced dialog that is dependent on everyone’s recall of what was said here at CNB………………………….point? AP and MH are textbook examples of their cultures. They are oil and water for these reasons…………..and this was known by BD/Mo. We some times loose track here mid season about things that were well discussed this winter. The point………..you don’t buy a Ferrari for an off road race……….but if you are driving a Ferrari, and have to go off road to get where your going, better make some modifications and be prepared to absorb a little damage and depreciation……..that’s the game……………..so why is it we are so reluctant to modify this Matt Mobile.
…………..is it because we are going to change directions? Maybe not off road after all? Having a player playing at 1 quarter of his value is a sobering loss I’d guess. Unless its temporary.
Westy, you have previously talked about the change of direction and I agree its a possibility that should not be summarily dismissed.
I appaud the rookies for stepping up.
The rookies are definitely to be applauded for stepping up, for without their vital production, we would be much further back than a half game! I speak not only of the two who are most obvious (David and Jaime), but also of Jon Jay! Despite the fact that Stavinoha was used sparingly last year, you could also say that he too is a rookie. Using Westy’s assessment of Matt operating at one-quarter of his capability, one would have to estimate Albert at only three-quarters. The net loss of one slugger is indeed sobering, but I must believe that it is indeed temporary. Nay, I keep hearing Albert’s assurance (concerning the tandem of Matt and himself); “It’s going to get scary”. It’s nigh unto mid-season, where last year Matt stepped it up and Albert stepped it down. I can only hope that Westy’s assessment itself will prove to be temporary, of the oil depleting the water (and vice versa)…
After 5 innings, there is a helluva pitching duel going on right now between Strasburg and some mediocre (Floyd)…
Aside from Schumaker “against a righty”, it appears that the batting order is much the same. Although we’d all prefer Matt to be batting in the 6th slot, it remains the improvement for which we’ve all clamored (with Ludwick cleaning-up):
2b Schumaker
lf Holliday
1b Pujols
rf Ludwick
cf Rasmus
3b Freese
c Molina
p Carpenter
ss Ryan
Whew! Our King of Scrappers got out of that one in typical style…
Attaboy, Skip! Way to lead-off at the very outset of a game!
Hey! Number 7 just hit number 7! Talk about covering a multitude of sins…
Blind squirrel syndrome?
Could it be a case o’ that, indeed?
We have the makings of a tough outing and the pitch count is rather steep, but Chris is well known to get stronger as the game progresses (especially when he is beyond 80 pitches). What is more, it is not as though he was bereft of run support when he began the inning…
I see whats happening……………how do you like A’s baseball so far? Yadi abandoned Colby’s throw early coming that far out front………wow……
A’s can hit the curve………..Carp…..Waino……
To use blingboy’s phraseology, it certainly appears that Chris is coming “apart like a cheap suit”…
This is where we need a good long man………Carp’s mechanics are really off…….this is where injuries manifest…….there is a problem of some sort.
Six of the seven hits given-up were definitely NOT the grounders that you would expect from Chris: They were all in the outfield!
He has a problem…….he is playing with his release point……….avoiding some pain maybe?
To add insult to injury, we’re turning another mediocre into a Koufax!
That guy has good stuff 57………………… Luddy had it sitting right there………he will not survive 4th. He never considered hitting a single……………
Indeed, he was goin’ for the bleachers… Well, hopefully, we are getting signs that Matt is interested in his old job…
All RIGHT, Colby! What discipline!
Colby is swinging off his body again…….no backward press…………his next slump starts there.
Man! It was so good to see “Good Morning! Good Afternoon! Good Night!”, from Chris!
Who is that RBI machine in the Matt Holliday suit?
The ol’ can-o-corn followed by seeing-eye grounder trick. Brilliant!!!
Wow! What’s gotten into Matt? It looks as though he’s buckin’ for his old job, all right!
Where’s Luddy tonight? He’s missing a great game.
I believe Ludwick is lookin’ around for the afterglow from that first game against the Mariners. Just when everyone would begin to grumble, “What have you done for us lately?”, Matt puts a flame to the blow-torch…
Theory: Matt didn’t like being the guy with the shovel following the prize bull in the parade. He likes it better the other way around.
A SUPER analogy! That’s among all the others that I have wished I had said…
That’s as good as most descriptions BB….. Notice when the paid employees are working, the kids are absent……………………… Skip wants the 1st spot.
Westy is living proof that one damned good analogy ought to be followed by another…
The A’s feed is entertaining……………..
StreamTorrent…………..press search………..select sports int the drop down box….after search choose…. ShastaTV
Its free………
In the bottom of the 7th we will see the PHE strategy in all its glory, with the ’2nd leadoff man’ leading off. Tie game, getting late, crunch time. Tony’s reputation hangs in the balance.
I am not tech savvy Westy, I’d electrocute myself.
are you watching the game?
Yes, on FSM. The Oakland feed would be fun though.
Albert was scowling at Luddy for sealing him off. Jerks…..both of them…..
If McClellan doesn’t stink it up, it won’t be a pretty win for Chris, but a tribute to him nevertheless!
Freese had a quality at bat going untill the stars showed the new guys how its done on the bases. So he’ll get to lead off and do it again. He is so un-rookie-like in clutch at bats. Doesn’t seem like the same guy whose maturity and character were issues last winter.
Yep! Whiff! Whiff! Whiff! Yadier Molina certainly showed him how it’s done!
A strike-out? Followed by a ground-out? Franklin?
Frankie looks pumped………..
‘Twould be so un-Franklinlike not to put at least one runner on base!
Despite Chris’ rough outing, this was a satisfying game in many, many aspects…
Matt looks like he is shining a bit after the win.
RC………..he cannot swing from there. The swing isn’t the issue as much has how it’s usage effects his pitch selection.
I’m disappointed in Yadi’s attitude at the plate………..Freese had great Rbi ops and did not respond. He seemed diminished by the waves in front of him.
After this game (now batting .249 and going “Oh, for…!”), if Molina doesn’t snap out of it, they’ll be calling him, “Ol’ Mendoza Molina”!
I definitely got the vibe that Matt found some fuel in a self esteem confrontation with his last team. I’m sure of it…………this reinforces my belief that he is starving for competitive motivation here. He is lost in the Albert wake.
Like you said Westy, it was a game for the minimum wage guys to duck and cover. Stav didn’t get the memo though.
Sheets is a guy we can brutalize. He was better last time out, but only a so-so righty these days.
You think RC will be on the phone trying a little long distance hand holding? Sorry, I forgot, its not hand holding. Edit in whatever RC said it was.
I think you’ve got something there, Westy…
I think that he indicated the “hand holding” to be “verbal ass kicking”
I’ve seen replays of Holliday’s homer and his other at bats. The leg kick on the homer looked like it did last year. Usually it looks like he’s rushing to get in the kick before the ball gets there.
That’s it 57!! Hopefully it works over the phone.
Judging by the Warrior’s straightforward way of expressing himself, I’ve no doubt that such an ass-kicking would actually smart…
It will be 97 at game time. Nice. Fans in the right field stands faceing the sun will get cooked.
Bling, There is no doubt that if I had the time to stay with him and on top of him every day he could be very good. But I don’t. He gets better at handling his own business and he is learning more and more every day how his swing works from a mechanical standpoint. But if you think I’m holding Colby’s hand I guess you think Brendan and Skip are sleeping with BIg Mac
WC, you and I could debate swings all day long and we would probably come away never agreeing on a lot of the mechanical issues that different swings have. I can tell you where I have always tried to keep Colby, since he fell in love with the leg kick, which I don’t like by the way.
The few keys that I watch for are
1) Colby must have body lean toward the plate. This keeps his head from moving toward the plate. The more straight up he stands the more he dives in when he swings and his head moves toward the plate. Causes a lot of just miss foul tips. Head movement.
2) An important part of the body lean and a key that was amiss last night was his right foot. If his right foot ends up in a closed position more than an inch or two max then you start getting roll over ground balls. The body lean and front foot work in tandem in my mind because the more body lean the less likely the foot will close off too much when you step. You see when he gets straight up he dives in with his head and right foot. After the game last night he texted me and wrote that he was closing off too much. I didn’t watch the game but that was his opinion after watching the video of his at bats. Head movement and hip closure(which is power loss).
3) Leg kick. This is nothing more than a timing mechanism for Colby and most players in my experience. The key for Colby is the leg kick must be back and not straight up. When I’m talking to him about the leg kick I’m saying you must bring the knee back to your sack. You can find pictures of Colby with his leg straight up and this causes his head and body to jump out front. When he is not bringing the knee back you see him late on fast balls and early on breaking balls. The head is jumping forward and he has lost his lower body when this happens.
Those things are the only things I ever have fixed or talked about when it comes to Colby WC. And every time we speak about those things he will go on a tear. all the way back to Johnson City where he hit 7 jacks in the last 3 weeks of the season or Springfield where he hit like 13 or 14 jacks in the month of August. Last June when I met and worked with him all the way to two weeks ago. The problem is for some reason you can’t fix it over the phone, you have to be in the cage or we can’t fix it.
WC you speak of hand position and I believe you must get your hands back to their most powerful position when you load but in my dealings with a lot of leg kick hitters if you keep enough body lean they take care of themselves. When Colby was standing straight up you saw him trying to adjust his hands from time to time, whether that be up or down. It never works to solve the issue but it can work as a band aid for a day or two. On a leg kick guy the hands and knee go back together.
WC in my mind Brendan Ryan needs more body lean and Colby even mentioned talking to him about it prior to his home run last week. He squats too much and is too straight up. Watch how he lunges at balls from that squat straight up stance.
You speak of Holliday, and this is just another view on what I see from a mechanical perspective. He is a leg kick hitter and he waits as late as he possibly can in order to not be early with his load. This gives the appearance of him having to rush to get the leg down prior to his swing. His heel must be on the ground prior to his swing so he has to get it going quick if he waits too long. Its timing is all from where I sit.
Matt wants the ball away and his stance in my eyes is set up for that. The Dodgers showed you that he doesn’t want the ball in last October and teams have attacked him in all year inside. To me Matt was to closed off which allowed teams to get in his kitchen so to speak and when they busted him in enough to make him start early they would get him chasing out of the zone on off speed stuff. I believe the adjustment Matt has made is he has altered his stance to where he is not quite as closed of as he was initially and now his hips aren’t tied up on balls in like they were earlier. He just lost his power by closing off the hips too much.
You learn from failure though WC and the lack of power numbers has caused Matt to make some adjustments and now you are fixing to see him bust out in a big way IMO.
But every hitting guy looks for different things as part of the mechanics he believe to be the important cogs of a swing. Like I said earlier, you and I would probably never agree on a lot of the mechanical issues that we see in different hitters. My views are based on issues I have had with hitters over the years and what we did to correct those individual problems. And you know this, one guys fix may be a nightmare for another guy. Different hitters respond to different things so you can’t just cookie cutter your approach because every hitter is different.
Sorry for the long winded response but I was bored waiting on my wife to weed the flower bed so I can start putting the marble chips in it.
Another thing Bling, I was just watching me some US Open golf where every golfer that is ranked in the top 20 in the world golf rankings keeps their swing coach with them when they are at a tournament, in order to tweak their swing if it needs tweaking. At up to $3500 bucks an hour for Butch Harmon. That is some high dollar hand holding what you think?
I’m certain that you guys know the reason that I’ve always avoided commenting upon the mechanics of throwing and hitting (I wouldn’t know what in hell I would be talking about). However, my ignorance about any topic is always gradually eroded by my interest and curiosity. Although I’ve yet to reach the level of knowledge necessary to debate about such things (and would never attain to the needed expertise, besides), I can say this:
In terms of “food for thought”, I need not be a rocket scientist to know that our Warrior has provided a feast. Although the meal is too rich for me to sample any more than a small portion, I can plainly see that it is sufficient for Westy and blingboy to be belching until the cows come home…
While I know you to be a good looking guy RC, I need you to know that I rarely allow men to approach me that way. But on reflection, I’m hoping your very explicit and detailed post was as good for you………as it was for me. I’m going to want to savor it for a bit before I read your palm.