I really blew it. Recently, I came across the announcement of the 2010 inductees to the Professional Baseball Scouts Hall of Fame. In doing so, I realized that I entirely missed the 2009 class of a dozen deserving men, which included St. Louis Cardinals professional scout Joe Rigoli.
Better late than never, I decided to salute Rigoli now, which I did first and foremost in my weekly column at the Globe-Democrat. Due to space limitations and the need to be net, I didn’t include everything, hence, this post. So read that article first and then come back here for the rest of the story.
The base criterion for induction in the PBSHOF is a minimum of 20 years of professional scouting experience. Selection is based on a combination of quantifiable success in the field, contributions to the game in other areas, professional or amateur, and involvement and dedication to the local community.
The PBSHOF is the brainchild of The Goldklang Group, operators of four minor league franchises located in Charleston, SC, Ft. Myers, FL, Hudson Valley, NY and St. Paul, MN. Plaques of the inductees are proudly displayed at the appropriate park, with annual ceremonies at each to honor the new inductees nearest that area of the country.
I highly commend The Goldklang Group’s now-three year effort to draw attention to scouts’ invaluable contributions at the very foundation of the game of professional baseball, often overlooked by others. Vice President Tyler Tumminia spearheads the efforts.
The 2010 honorees will be as follows: At Charleston, Jax Robertson (Pittsburgh Pirates); at Fort Myers, Terry Ryan (Minnesota) and Dave Yoakum (Chicago White Sox); at Hudson Valley: Bob Miske (New York Yankees) and at St. Paul: Ken Stauffer (Tampa Bay).
2009’s inductees were Tom Greenwade (New York Yankees), Marti Wolever (Philadelphia), Joe McIlvaine (Minnesota), Rigoli, Rene Mons (Milwaukee), Roland Johnson (New York Mets), Al Goldis (long time scout), John Barr (San Francisco), Bob Fontaine (Toronto), Gary Hughes (Chicago Cubs), Tom Burns (Toronto) and Howard McCullough (Arizona).
The inaugural class of 12, inducted in 2008, are John Tumminia (Chicago White Sox), Tom Giordano (Texas Rangers), Tom Kotchman (Los Angeles Angels), Rudy Santin (San Francisco Giants), Lennie Merullo (MLSB), Buzz Bowers (Boston Red Sox), Lon Joyce (LA Dodgers), Donny Rowland (New York Yankees), Brad Sloan (Los Angeles Angels), Art Stewart (Kansas City Royals), Phil Rizzo (LA Dodgers) and Hep Cronin (Atlanta Braves).
Congratulations to all these scouts, especially Joe Rigoli. Last summer, I ran into him at Citi Field in New York. Though we chatted briefly, I didn’t know to congratulate him. Sorry, Joe, and belated best wishes on becoming a Hall of Famer!
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In the Globe article that talks about this, Luhnow is quoted a couple times talking about how important scouts are, player makeup, etc. That was good to hear from him. Were those things he said for the occasion of Rigoli being named to the Scouts HOF, or past quotes?
Those were Jeff Luhnow’s comments specifically when I asked him about scouting and Rigoli within the last few days. I expect to be sitting down with Jeff on more general topics later this week. If folks have any questions they’d like answered, feel free to offer them up.
When’s he going to draft the next Albert? Also, would like his comments on how he thinks he will use the sportvision f/x info, and how it will be used by the major and minor league coaching staffs, and whether he thinks it will in any way trikle down to the ordinary fan level some how.
A 2008 awardee, Tom Kotchman of the Angels, is father of Casey; he has scouted Florida and came up with 2B Howie Kendrick, among others. Art Stewart has been a long time guy for the Royals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Stewart.
Re 2009, Joe McIllvaine has been a strong talent guy for many years, ultimately becoming GM of the Mets. He probably drafted Dwight Gooden, among others. Hes with the Twins now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_McIlvaine Terry Ryan with the Twins has been saluted in 2010.
Rigoli would have signed Jason Motte, 19th round catcher from a low profile New York college. He could have been involved in picking Matt Morris, who played collegiately for Seton Hall in north Jersey, near where Rigoli has been based.
Al Goldis helped the White Sox select Auburn 1Bman Frank Thomas, after the Cards picked a lemon back in 1989. He claims credit for outstanding defensive CF Devon White. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/28/sports/baseball-pair-of-scouts-are-using-history-to-help-shape-the-mets-future.html?pagewanted=1
For Luhnow:
what scouts have received the Fred McAlister award or is this a secret honor?
how much time is devoted to having to recruit new scouts (to back-fill departures)? is there more scouting turn-over outside the US?
do the Cards, as a routine business practice, aim to learn from past drafts and factor lessons into future ones?
given monster bonuses commanded outside the US, illustrated with Chapman, does this give the Cards new incentive to offer above slot bonuses within the US?
JS, good question about the past winners of the McAlister Award. When I asked for that list, I received the answer that the award will be re-instituted with a new selection process. Apparently they don’t want to give me the others until then.
The above piece notes McIlvaine works for the Twins and the Globe-Democrat article gives Rigoli credit for discovering Morris. You seemed to have missed those the first time through.
I will include your questions in the mix. Thanks for them.
Baseball Cube credits Rigoli on signing LHP Rheal Cormier.
More questions:
–with benefit of hindsight, what’s Luhnow’s biggest regret so far on draft day? (Maybe he will not want to answer, but one good answer would be passing OF Taylor for RHP Tom Eager.)
–do the Cards value determination and good attitude too much on draft day versus innate athleticism?
–do the Cards have more permissive size requirements than some other teams?
–what’s more important in scouting: an uncommonly good evaluation on one player or consistently accurate evaluations for many players?
In 2008, the Cards drafted 5’10″ RHP Scott Gorgen in the 4th round, passing on a guy like 6’8″ Georgia Tech LHP David Duncan. Do the Cards value projection less than some other teams? Even if Gorgen is better in college, given that successful pro careers may last 10 years or more, should the Cards put more draft value on potential for a big framed guy to grow into his physique in the years ahead?
In 2009, we selected Scott Bittle in the 4th round. Bittle had a sore arm, off and on, for years. Was this a calculated medical gamble he could gain from a cleanup shoulder operation?
How are the experiments of converting Tony Cruz and Stephen Hill to catchers going?
I wonder how many Tim Lincecums didn’t get drafted because they were righties who weren’t big?
Why cant we draft players with ML-sized bodies, when they are available in the draft, and have to instead sign determined midgets? This is another way of asking the question.
Why do we spurn an underachieving Stanford OF in Taylor, who has upside tools and was recently traded one for one for Wallace, and instead sign a mediocrity like Eager, who now cant rise above A level?
A related perplexity: How can they give the Cy to a ‘determined midget’ over two guys with ML bodies?
Gorgen or McCully have not gotten Cy Youngs yet and its doubtful one is in their futures. In contrast, Lincecum went about 10th in the nation in the draft he signed, so was not underestimated by scouts.
Jess Todd is 5’11″ and has pitched well in the minors. The immortal Pedro Martinez is 5’11″, but he has a great arm, Tom Gordon 5’9″ with a great curve. Drafting a sub 6 foot righthander is not intrinsic nonsense, but on the other hand there are many more misses than successes.
The Cards have more tolerant physical standards than do some teams, preferring college performance over physique. Shane Robinson is a speedy CF, but smallish, an example. Gorgen is another example of a collegiate star who does not have a lot of physical room for further development. 2B Curtis may be an example of a good attitude guy who is hard to project to the ML level. Bittle may be an example of favoring college performance over health. While all amateur prospects have negatives as well as positives, the Cards seem to select at least their fair share of unusual collegiates, another example being Degerman, who had a weird delivery and did not succeed as a pro. I am wondering if the Cards are going to become less open to unusual collegiate players, in future, after seeing the minor league performances of some collegiate stars.
More ideas for Luhnow:
–when did the idea of the 8 man minor league rotations begin, within the Cards?
–what has he learned from working at scouting US amateurs?
–what lessons have been learned from the efforts in Latin America?
–some teams have been active in Asia, others in Europe. The Rays are starting in Brazil. Are the Cards content to focus on the Dominican and Venezuela?
Luhnow Q’s.
Where does he rank the Cards system?
If higher than the consensus (I’m sure it is), what are the others missing? What specific players does he think are not being given their due by the ranksters (I love inventing words)?
Ask him to rank the system’s SS’s (Solano, Kozma, Jackson, Castillo, Valera, Hernandez, others) in terms of potential (probably wont due it).
What minor leaguers seem to have made the most progress this off season (getting in shape, seem sharper this Spring (not looking for a rehash of players that did well in Winter ball))?
Position switches for minor leaguers this year? Is Scruggs only a 1B? The same question abut Adams and Rodriguez. Will Curtis be moved to 2B? Can Brown, Smith, Hill, and/or Rivera play OF at the major league level (defensive wise). Will Hamilton see significant OF time this year? Can Conley definitely stay as an OF?
Any minor league relievers who will be tried as starters this year? Is Daley going to stay in the pen even if he has refound (love those invented words!) his control? How many walks does he think we’ll see out of the Springfield pen between Samuel, Daley, Riefer, and King (just kidding).
What is the major reason guys such as Reifer and Kelly who seem to have great stuff seem very hittable at times?
Blazek, Hooker, Zawacki, and Ferrara – who seems most poised for a breakout this year?
Are there any ground ball specialists in the system who dont have great K rates but who’s sinker is so good that is could carry them to the majors?
Who are the best Parise candidates – pitchers who have no hype, good but not great stats, yet could advance quickly?
Do soft tossers such as Addition, Hearne, Castillo and Gorgon have a greater need for an “out” pitch or is it more about mixing the pitches up?
Do they expect Castillo to still add velocity at this point?
Who would he pick as the most likely to pull a Craig or a Walters from last year’s draft class (lower round picks who were unimpressive is short season ball but took off their first full season)?
Who does he see at 3B in Springfield (no true 3B candidates that seem ready unless they think Carpenter has progressed that far) ? Is it pretty certain De La Cruz can stay at 3B defensively?
Schnieder and Mortenson had nearly identical 1st year stats – is there much chance of Schneider advancing as rapidly as Mortenson?
Does Cutler have the skills to stay at catcher? Audry Perez’s catching skills? Hill will continue catching? – would they keep him at AA to get more catching development even if they thought his bat was ready to move up? Cruz seems to have mastered throwing out runners, what parts of catching does he still need to work on most? Are there any catchers in the system who have yet to show a bat but their catching skills could carry them a long way ( a la a Pagnozzi type)? Was De La Cruz (the catcher) overhyped or is there a hidden reason he hasn’t seemed to have progressed much?
Why hasn’t Ryde Rodriguez shown much power – is it a swing issue? Do you expect that to change in the near future?
Who are the true CF’s in the system (range, speed, arm are no question for the position)
Does he think Jones has the arm to play RF?
Pham and Edwards – are their K issues related more to their swing or to pitch recognition?
Oscar Taveras – how come he gets no hype? true CF?
Are there any players from the DSL/VSL who he thinks have a legitimate shot at starting this year at JC or higher?
What is the key to Parejo advancing? He seems to have stalled.
Is there a next Fransisco Samuel in the system? (great stuff but not harnessed).
Health status of Kopp, Diapoules?
If you think the interview will be too short I have some more
For Luhow, there is a book, Fooled by Randomness, unread by Jumbo. Its about how humans invent after the fact explanations, some of which may be wrong. Lets apply this to scouting. Some player rises to the majors and scouts come up with all sorts of theories about his indominatable never say die determination, but maybe that is not a strong explanation.
Lets consider Michael Taylor, Stanford U, 6’6″ 250 lbs. He has a ML bod. The Phillies select him in the 5th round, 2007, just like they took Ryan Howard in 2000. Who cares why these two men hit ok, but not great during their junior years of college? The thing that is easy to measure and know is their size. We know they are big enough to play MLB. Having scouts measure their hearts and minds may be a waste of time, because scouts will come up with some rah-rah theory. The real reason for Howard and Taylor is simple: they have the raw physiques. If they apply themselves to the game, they may excel. Meanwhile the Cards select Tom Eager in the 5th round, 2007, one pick before the Phils grab Taylor. Eager had good stats at Cal Poly, but no plus pitches. He had little upside potential to improve. Is there a lesson from a case like this (Taylor versus Eager) to give more draft day weight to physical potential?
Carioca: if Schneider has as much arm strength as Mortensen, why would he have lasted to the 20th round? I figure Schneider is more like Broderick or Hearne, a guy who started in college and can do continue in the pros, especially at lower levels. It may be premature to link Schneider and Mortensen, based just on stats.
A plus, go to, unhittable pitch seems important. Wainwright’s excellence seems built on a plus curve, supplemented by other pitches. This is why Rich Hill could surprise, if he can control that thing. Luhnow may understand this, since he keeps an eye open for knuckeballers, this spring Zink.
There are plenty of amateurs who the Cards sign who seem like smart decisions, its not all Tom Eagers and Brad Furnishs.
Luke Gregerson was a relief pitcher for an NAIA team. He had great stats and they were legit, because he has a strong slider. He was a good find.
Pete Parise is another converted position player, one with a sinker; fine UDFA.
OF Derrick Shepperd had the body, so why not take a gamble? He did not pan out, but its still worth a roll of the dice, because you never know how much a guy can surprise. Every 7th Shepperd or Jon Edwards might develop into a good hitter, so the more you sign, the better.
Boggs and Sam Freeman had crummy ERAs in college, but have the arm strength to break wood bats. Degerman might have worked out, if he could have controlled his curve.
Nice article on Rigoli etc. on the Globe site Brian.
One question I have–would the Cardinals consider founding a baseball academy in the USA?
There is a tremendous amount of untapped baseball talent in the homeland.
Thanks, chief. Do you mean signed or unsigned players in your US academy? Remember the rules are very different here.
baseball academies in the US have little value. Until a player is 18, you would be developing him to be drafted by someone else. After 18, there a few players who would be worth developing at that age.
I was thinking unsigned players. Obviously I don’t know the rules but the value would be to the individuals playing at the academy, value to the community the academy is located in , there would be more players available . Hopefully it would lead to more native interest in the
“National PastTime” .
I’m dreaming of more players developing their skills that come from ghettos, farmland and suburbia.
The talent is there, if there were more baseball academies in the USA for young players there could be more interest in being baseball players for disadvantaged people in the US.
It would be a money loser for major league organizations but the value would be in more kids playing baseball in the USA.
Maybe there would be no increase in players beyond those that play high school and college ball already but a sincere shot at it by a mlb organization could find one or two worthwhile players every couple years that otherwise might be in jail, playing football, sitting bankrupt on a farm tractor, etc.
Crap. I’m stuck at Midway in Chicago. Can’t get to Lauderdale or West Palm. My daughter, trying to get back from spring break is stuck ‘in miami-ish’. (She was supposed to be up around Palm Beach) My son, who left this morning is now stuck in Atlanta. (He had been tasked with keeping an eye on his sister, but she ‘ditched him’ and went to Key Largo with their cousin). I was wondering why the game wasn’t on the radio. Do airports provide wireless internet, or am I just pirating from somebody? Not a tech guy. Stadium prices for beer.
Record rainfall here in FL has to be making travel difficult, bb. That is why no game on the radio, for sure. Some airports offer free internet and others charge.
I am in Palm Beach-ish, but in no position to try to keep up with a young lady. Sorry, bb!
Thanks anyway Brian. As we speak, she is trying to convince me there is no choice but to get to Key West, ‘chill for the weekend’ and fly out of there getting back in time for class Monday. I need to ‘do the Western Union money thing, daddy’. I don’t buy any of it, of course. I’m guessing she’s en route right now. But I’ll send money anyway. My wife will be furious, but, as my daughter pointed out, she’s 300 miles from Chicago. Damn, I wish I was that age. I’ve fired off a srongly worded e-mail to my son. Warning him to avoid his mother. Having been married for 30 years, I’m thinking it would be prudent to just catch a flight back to St. Louis. Do some damage control.
Yikes BB!!!!!!!! Ball games 75 degrees………St Loey bbbbbeerrrrrrrrrr. A man has to live.
Read a great story about Tom Kotchman.