A look at St. Louis Cardinals second base non-roster invitees over the last five seasons.
I have been thinking about the made-for-pre-spring camp excitement surrounding the assignment of uniform number 3 to St. Louis Cardinals non-roster invitee Ruben Gotay. There are those convinced the number means the infielder is considered a front-runner to make the opening day roster.
We don’t need to look back very far to find history littered with bodies with pasts that look a lot like Gotay’s – former major leaguer with ample minor league time, especially most recently.
This doesn’t mean I am pounding on Ruben, a Caribbean Series teammate of Yadier Molina with Team Puerto Rico in 2007, the latter who maybe not so coincidentally happens to wear number 4. I am just pointing out a well-established pattern. Recent results indicate former MLB second-base retreads auditioned in Cardinals spring camp just haven’t cut it no matter what number was on their back.
Following are the players tried in similar circumstances over the last five springs. Only one of them ever made it far enough to claim a regular season major league roster spot with the Cardinals at any time, let alone opening day.
That lone survivor was Joe Thurston last year and the only reason he made it was due to opportunity elsewhere in the infield – all the third basemen who managed to eliminate themselves from contention. Once there, Thurston remained, but didn’t produce consistently and wasn’t asked back for 2010.
Of the others, one was cut by the conclusion of camp, while the remaining three toiled in Memphis for at least part of the subsequent season, a most possible 2010 destination for Gotay. Even with him included, the youngest at 27, the group averages the ripe old age of 31.
One common thread is terrible spring training results at the plate, a collective .207 batting average. They weren’t so hot defensively, either. They averaged two errors each, despite the briefest of cameos by Dave Berg in 2006 and Wilton Guerrero the previous March.
| Spring | Player | Spring # | Roster | Age | Errors | BA | ABs | Disposition |
| 2010 | Ruben Gotay | 3 | NRI | 27 | ||||
| 2009 | Joe Thurston | 22 | NRI | 29 | 1 | 0.246 | 69 | St. Louis |
| 2008 | D’Angelo Jimenez | 28 | NRI | 30 | 3 | 0.237 | 38 | Memphis |
| 2007 | Jolbert Cabrera | 19 | NRI | 34 | 4 | 0.151 | 53 | Memphis |
| 2006 | Dave Berg | 19 | NRI | 35 | 1 | 0.000 | 1 | Released |
| 2005 | Wilton Guerrero | 19 | NRI | 30 | 0 | 0.125 | 8 | Memphis |
| Average | 31 | 2 | 0.207 | 34 |
In terms of uniform numbers, while none had a number above 28, neither were any of the failed combatants issued 3 like Gotay. That doesn’t mean there hasn’t been a recent number 3 working at second base in spring camp, however.
The group of NRIs does not include a pair of failed candidates in 2006. Believe it or not, coming into camp that spring, both Junior Spivey (pictured), wearing number 3, and Deivi Cruz, sporting number 35, were on the 40-man roster. That that didn’t last long and like the vast majority of the NRIs noted above, neither Spivey nor Cruz appeared in a regular-season game for St. Louis. Here is how they did in 2006 camp.
| Spring | Player | Spring # | Roster | Age | Errors | BA | ABs | Disposition |
| 2006 | Junior Spivey | 3 | 40-man | 31 | 5 | 0.147 | 68 | Memphis |
| Deivi Cruz | 35 | 40-man | 33 | 0 | 0.146 | 41 | Released | |
| Average | 32 | 3 | 0.147 | 55 |
Of course as was evident in the Thurston case last spring, opportunity can pop up even when it is not expected. Someone else’s misfortune can open a door that previously looked to be closed.
Still, the future was far from bright for these infielders, even after leaving the Cardinals organization behind. Including Spivey and Cruz, of the earlier six, only two ever appeared in the major leagues again for any club following their brief stop in Cardinals camp. They are Jimenez (Washington, 2007) and Cabrera (Cincinnati, 2008).
Thurston is in the Braves camp this spring at least, though on a minor league deal of course, and Gotay still has his Cardinals bid in front of him. I don’t like the chances of either, though…
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Cardinal front office is learning. There are things they want. Tony’s habits, including his penchant for platooning are really corrosives to player development. If minor leaguer’s don’t start showing up here, that is very costly indeed for reasons we’re all aware.
Gotay is another disposable, non threatening asset…( The astronaut, Thurston), intended to limit Tony’s options, at the same time fulfilling other considerations. He is the first move of the season, one that Mo got to evaluate and make himself. The fact that he is new, which raises him beyond early judgments, is the whole point.
We could have Branyan and Lopez for 5 or 6 large. 31hrs, 300+ plus average. But that is just about winning games, not controlling costs and player development.
That’s what I see to be true. I’m actually with them on some of these issues. You have to give these kids a chance to play. If you think that so many new faces has nothing to do with creating a new posse for the MH campfire, you would be wrong. Mo is very thorough within the framework that he is allowed to influence.
I understand the value of Lopez but don’t see Branyan as a fit at all. Like Lopez, he is a former Cardinal and may be for a reason. When here before, he hardly saw action and didn’t do much when given a chance.
For $6-7M we could get Lopez and any FA pitcher left on the board. Soon, pitchers worth having will not be found on the board, after which time it would be better to have Lopez and half the money rather than all the money if we need to deal for a pitcher.
bb, don’t forget the old fogeys like Pedro and maybe Smoltz this year who will wait until someone really needs them.
Keeping some dry powder isn’t a terrible thing if it is needed later and deployed. Getting a mid-season shot is always nice.
Brian, I don’t disagree. My thinking is that dry powder doesn’t have to be in cash, thats all.
Say $3M was invested in Lopez. If we need a pitcher half way through the season, then having a Lopez to trade might be more valuable than the $1.5 spent to that point. And if not, he could be basically given away and the total cost was $1.5 for a half season of his service, and we would still have $5.5 of the $7M dry powder.
Seems like a no-brainer to me, unless you are fixated on not letting Tony keep all the wing and prayer newbies on the bench.
“Cardinal front office is learning.” Slow learners I’d say.
bb, I like your thinking as far as getting Lopez as a tradeable asset if nothing else. Surprised Bean hasn’t done that yet.
Cardinals have had chemistry problems. Whether we like it or not, AP’s personal style is abrasive to the boy scouts that surround him. I couldn’t think of a more perfect model for examining this than 2009. …………….. Cards have nothing but prayers at this time last year. Carpenter survives, Joel sinks, Franklin fools, and Albert single handedly carries the team into July. With Pujols inability to play with his teammates after that fateful Friday in Philly. Holiday and the collapse of the division were the biggest contributors to their playoff run. You have a coalition of vets that know their place around Albert. There is an appearance that Lopez might fall into the Yadi/Albert camp of privileged efforts, and with their support, likely run a few of the kids back to Memphis. They don’t want that. Gotay’s function may have no more than ethnic considerations, or at least the avoidance of the appearance that we are becoming a boy scout troupe. As I have said many times, the game here is around keeping the stands Red and avoiding being leveraged by the Pujols anomaly. In fact, as I write this, the Gotay signing might be seen as the first move in a defensive posture taken by Management that might be an attempt to hide their perpetration to survive a Pujols abdication……………… It is difficult for me not to recognize the ominous signs out of the AL East. Anybody involved in baseball planning realizes that the NY/ Boston rivalry is the focal point of MLB’s image right now. The Yanks could have gotten Holiday and dominated that division. Holiday’s personality would have been perfect for an A-Rod/Jeter led team. Their mutual restraint and synchronization of spending levels tells me that there is mediation going on.
If we were playing to win. We spend the 100 mill, and do whats necessary after if need be. We aren’t. Its almost like the best planning they’re doing appears to be just girding against the possibility that their business plan may be exposed. That 100 million limit is just a line and a dare by an ego maniacal BD who is intent on showing Walter J. how a team should be handled. Philly’s are choking on 130, but they have a team to admire. Cardinals not so much.
You might be right about Branyan, Brian. I was just thinking of testosterone and 31 at Safeco. I don’t know him.
bling, 1/3mil seems too low.
i’m “in” if he could be signed for that, but higher salary demands are my only guess as to why he remains unsigned. wouldn’t surprise me if his intent has been to cash in on a very good 09, by signing a multi-year in the 5mil per range.
As Brian’s essay makes clear, year after year the Cards bring in an NRI middle infielder. This helps with overall depth.
In comparison with some of the others, Reuben Gotay has some things going for him. He is not post-prime, like Deivi Cruz. Unlike Joe Thurston, Gotay already has more than 700 ML at bats. One of his primary pluses is that he is a switch-hitter. Swinging left enabled Thurston to make the 2009 team and helped little Aaron Miles to sneak aboard.
Gotay’s disadvantage is he inexperience at SS and 3B.
The Cards have healthy competition for roster slots, with Gotay, Tyler Greene, and Lugo fighting for 1 slots. If Brendan Ryan is out for a while, Gotay can find himself in the majors again.
Oops, that was Gotay, Greene, and Lugo jousting over 2 slots.
You might be right BIP. Boras would have convinced Flip he could get multi years and big bucks if he didn’t already think it. And at 30 yrs old, he’s not up there with the older guys who aren’t getting multi-years.
It may be kind of like Damon, where he had his sights set too high so teams moved on, and now he will have to take what he can scrounge up. I wouldn’t think he’d have fired Boras unless he felt he was going to get left on the shelf.
As usual WC sees a conspiracy around every corner.Why not wait and see who else ends up getting a deal before ST is over.Who`s to say some of the kids might develop better than older FA options.who knows?
Too imply than Gotay is just a ethnic attemptt to humor AP is absurb IMO.
The playing to win comment is absurb………………if you don`t think they are playing to win then you are obsessed with your conspiracy theories.
Its not how good Gotay or another player is in isolation, but how good he is in relation to others competing for a roster spot.
This spring, the Cards are unusually well stocked at SS, with Ryan, Lugo, and Greene. Ryan and Greene are in their prime years, while Lugo is an experienced guy who showed he had something left in the tank last summer. So thankfully this spring we do not have a guy like Deivi Cruz, Wilton Guerrero, Dave Berg, Jolbert Cabrera, or D’Angelo Jimenez in the competition. All seemed post-prime or weak hitting short-stops.
(Spivey was different in believed to be ML ready: a good hitting 2B man who unpleasantly surprised Walt by not being able to rebound from prior injuries.)
Gotay is a little more promising than most of these recent year NRI infielders, at least with the stick. He has 700+ ML at bats of experience, including some seasons when he had an OPS above 700. Unlike Cruz, Guerrero, Berg, Cabrera, and Jimenez, he has not played SS, which hurts his chances. However, if he could learn to defend 3B, then he could be a reserve at 2B, 3B, and left swinging pinch hitter. Gotay provides depth and competition to Freese, T. Greene, and Julio Lugo in the majors and to Descalso at Memphis. Reuben may not make the ML squad, but this could be because the overall calibre of competition is higher than in the past.
There are still well over 100 Free agents available looking for jobs now.Many of them will end up will minor league deals or NRIs.What`s the big hurry and hand wringing about? Still plenty of LH bats available and bench help.Gotay can be a valuable reserve being a switch-hitting INF.
Bw, ethnicity or skin hue gets dragged out year after year by posters who think about such matters. In 2009, this was said to be the reason Thurston made the team, in 2008 Brian Barton. If Aaron Miles had been Hispanic or Af-Am, Aaron would have been labelled an affirmative action roster spot by the many who bashed him.
For whatever reason, a good percentage of middle infielders come from Latin America. If the Cards want to sign a middle infielder as an NRI, to add to depth and competition, then they end up with candidates like Cruz, Jiminez, Guerrero, Cabrera, and now Reuben Gotay. As Brian reports, the first four of these candidates did not make the team, regardless of ethnicity.
It is possible that all other things being equal, the Cards could woo Gotay as a free agent because his Dad once played for them. We like father/son combinations, like Ed and 2006 NRI Scott Spiezio, for instance.
There has to be a reason other than the ability to hit that keeps teams from signing Lopez because the guy has been lights out with the stick these last two years.
The reason may be closer to what WC has stated. The cardinals do have team chemistry problems and surrounding AP with more players that are likely to take advantage of AP’s power in the clubhouse may not be what Mo is aiming for. I am eager to see how AP responds to an equally huge presence this year on the 2010 cardinals team who will take alot of the other guys under his wing, and already has for that matter. I’m jacked about Holliday, calling his teammates to motivate them, keeping up with their progress this off season as far as working out goes, putting their minds at ease about the internal problems of the past. He, my friends is going to bring the large majority of this team together.
I personally believe Lopez would be a nice fit ability wise, but I don’t have to put up with him on a daily basis either. That being said I think there is a good chance before all is said and done that Lopez ends up with the cardinals. I don’t think it will be that big of a problem this year with Holliday on board. I say sign him Mo and lets get this thing a rollin.
It is revealing that no team has signed Felipe, showing the issue is broad. And the broad issue is the weak economy. This cascades down to team budgets. The Cards were one of the few big spenders this winter, with Holliday and Penny.
The Cards and Boras know how to do business (i.e., Lohse and Holliday).
My guess is the Cards feel ok right now with Freese, Greene, Ryan, Lugo, Schumaker, and Gotay (for 3b, SS, 2B). They are preserving budget. If they were to add Lopez for $4MM, then as fate would have it the next day a pitcher suffers an injury and they cannot address the gap.
Mo has introduced more September/October extension signings. And he seems to have added a spring training signing (Reyes, Lohse). TLR must like this opportunity to spend some money in late March to shore up what TLR then thinks is the biggest weakness.
Chances are Lopez will get an offer from another team. We do not want to disrespect Lopez or the Union with a low ball offer right now. However, if Lopez does not get an offer from another team by March, then we might be willing to offer him a deal lower than the Cards acknowledge he is worth within a healthy market for players.
Jumbo, your thoughts could very well be right as well. Yours are coming from a glass half full where mine come from that same glass but mine is half empty.
Jumbo, it was Gotay’s uncle who once played for the Cardinals.
You do know that Lopez fired Boras, right?
Brian, thanks for the clarification re Reuben’s unc.
Boras brought Felipe to St Louis in August 2008 to try to engineer his rebound. It worked. Lopez followed up with a strong 2009. If he were still subject to the arbitration period, then Boras and the Cards could study the numbers and engineer a deal at an appropriate amount. Since Lopez is more senior, he is truly a free agent. He has to be worth at least $5MM in a healthy marketplace, since Orlando Hudson got this much. The Cards must not want to shell out $5MM right now for another infielder, even if they acknowledge this would be a fair value. They are holding onto some powder.
There can get to be a problem of musical chairs. Guys are worth a certain amount, by their stats. However, it the teams are trying to shrink their budgets and cut back, for these hard times, then some guys can find themselves without a fair offer. Its no fault of theirs, the money is just not out there for the historically fair price, because the market is changed. This is Felipe’s problem. He may be worth $5MM, but no team wants to spend this much. The Cards do not want to disrespect the Union or Felipe by offering $2MM or something. So they will wait around and see if he can get a fairer offer. By mid-March, Felipe may say, I will take $1.75MM rather than sit out the season and some team, maybe the Cards, will say yes. This will be too bad for Felipe, but he is already rich so I shed no tears.
All owners knew (created) the writing on the wall this year. Knowing that there was going to be a large dead pool was inevitable. Some teams have built credible squads for this mess. Pirates, Washington etc…………………………………… 2008 they held a rule five players against all reason, tossing him away in the end. 2009 they positioned Thurston and signed him moments after the Kennedy assignation. They argued against other options all spring because he was there…………….let him go.
2010, their first move, knowing all of the above, they sign Gotay. Same MO. They then make the Penny signing, same as Lohse up front.. A tried and true formula for a condition public. They sign a bloated contract with Holiday, not because they had to, but because it filled the necessary model for public expectations. Boras doesn’t take differed options unless Holiday’s foots on his neck. Lets see 2mill, 10 years interest, that’s well over a million right there. That’s a BD game. Holiday just wanted to settle down with his kids.
This has nothing to do with conspiracy’s. BD knows after 06 that winning sometimes just happens. BD’s big problem is AP. He is managing the public reaction at this point, and preparing a position to survive any eventuality. The closed door talks are exactly what I speculated. The Lopez pick off by Lozano happened exactly as I speculated. The only bargaining chip BD has here is the willingness and the ability to let Albert walk. Just because it doesn’t occur to you 52, doesn’t make it science fiction. Earth goes around the sun is ok.
That’s where were at. After preliminary talks, Lozano is trying to see what cow is coming his way so he can figure out how to milk it. I smell an agreement with Selig on these matters. I have a feeling Lozano is trying to figure it out himself………..We have a team. The pen is weak. The bench is very weak. The solutions have been just lying there. BD knows where he stands. They have succeeded in duping the public into this 100 million ceiling bunk. Most people buy it completely………………………… Keep in mind this eventuality. If Albert struggles early, he isn’t going to take it well. In his denial, he will start talking trash and that will include trade me rants. That is one Card that BD holds in this hand. Lets watch and see. I like the kids. Rosters fine with me.
RC: “…equally huge presence…”
The front office didn’t get that memo yet RC. I’ve been looking into ticket packages and difference in ‘hugeness’ is clear. There are at least 9 Pujols packs and only one Holliday pack. So Albert has 9 times as many packs as Matt, and Matt has only one more than Gotay. Message recieved.
The pricing is very revealing as well. Remember all the talk about Matt’s contract and how numbers can be played with to create illusions. Well, the Pujols packs, looking at the cheapest seats as an example, cost $124 for seven games while the Holliday is $163 for seven games. Wow, you say, the front office has a higher value per game for the Matt pack. Just smoke and mirrors my friend. The Matt pack includes $7 per ticket of ‘Cards Cash’ good towards brewskies at the concession stand. That’s $49 all told. So its actually $114 or only $16 per ticket for the Matt pack and $18 for the Albert. BB wasn’t born yesterday.
Brian, besides the uncle wasn’t there also a previous Ruben Gotay of unknown relationship?
Great analysis BB
The fans that buy the Pujols packs are not quite as into the team concept as those fans who purchase the Holliday pack. IF you buy one of the many pujols packs you want to see Albert have a massive year but are not as concerned with the team going deep into the playoffs. If you are a Holliday pack purchaser then you are more concerned with the team doing well than Albert individually 
Yes, bb. That family connection is on my list to look into when I arrive in Florida.
On ticket packages as a surrogate for organizational importance, remember that Albert has been with St. Louis for nine years. Nine for him and one for Holliday seem about right using that measure.
My blog subject tomorrow is Cards Cash. Shhh. I need to be quiet so my ideas aren’t stolen…
Tiger was all very remorsefull, but he didn’t admit that his performance enhancing activities took strokes off his game.
In any event, I doubt that Pujols is a factor for Mo in relation to Lopez. The Cards generally like to play fair with Union wage scale and respecting ballplayers. Based on his play, Felipe deserves at least $4 to 5MM. It might violate etiquette to offer him $1MM. Maybe another team will decide to pay him a fair wage. But if this does not happen and the market is soft, Felipe may say, to heck with waiting, I will take $2MM or something. And if the Cards see him as a top need, then they can add him at a discounted price. Right now, Mo should respect Felipe’s current asking price, because everyone would agree that he has earned it.
Boras probably was seeking too many years for Lopez, as with Damon. The market is real soft, unless you are an impact stud like Holliday. Holliday landed the 7 year deal, whereas Felipe did not land a 2 year deal and fired Boras for aiming too high.
Has anyone seen who caught Zink today? Got a little wager on it.
There can be pitfall in seeing too many personnel decisions only through the prism of Pujols. Albert is a great star so we fans can see everything that goes on in relation to Albert. Thus people can think some Latin guys are Albert’s guys. They may actually just good ballplayers who happen to speak Spanish. Mo wanted to sign Felipe after 2008, but Boras dismissed Mo’s offer as too low. It must have been low, because Felipe signed for $3.5MM, 1 year, with the Diamondbacks. So obviously TLR, Oquendo, and Mo respect Felipe. They recruited him here in August 2008 and tried to extend him for 2009, but it did not work out. Its reasonable to think the Cards like Felipe, just for himself, and Pujols stuff does not enter the decision-making picture as regards Felipe.
Jumbo, your characterization of this situations stands alone, even amongst your other keen insights.
Everyone here has a viewpoint. We all characterize the market place with our own perspective based on needs. ” Heck WC, Scott Boras is a greedy idiot, I’ll fire him and get whats rightfully mine with one of them other agents”.
Now we know that there are some bright folks reading this. Jumbo is very knowledgeable, very aware. But his needs………….to make a definitive and pastoral interpretation of his environment, leads him to create a seamless interpretation of events, deifying mythic Cardinal competitive fantasies, and rich traditions based on the benevolent handling of marketplace complexities. Ask yourself this;
I’m Lopez. I have a high school education.???????? I’ve been making a good living but I pay half of what I make to the Gov, at least that’s what Scottie’s accountants say. I have the most prestigious agent in sports, but you know, I think I’m starting see the market differently than him. I think people don’t like Scott, because it sure can’t be me. I think its about time I cleared the air here. I’ll just phone the Beverly Hill guys. They’ve got it wired…. ………………………………………………..is this even plausible to any one here?
How does paying Lopez roughly $130,000 – the major league minimum salary – for a couple of months and then making a low-ball offer for him to return that was rejected by Boras indicate the Cardinals “respect” Lopez? I am not getting your spin, Jumbo.
bb, I read somewhere that Charles Cutler was assigned to catch the knuckleballers.
Brian, Lopez did not fare well playing for the Nats. He ended up released/liberated.
Given freedom of choice, he chose the Cards, versus any of 28 other teams, maybe because Boras respected that TLR/Oquendo could help him get back his game. If so, Boras figured right, because Lopez excelled with the bat during Aug/Sept 2008.
Mo said he phoned Boras and company to indicate interest in Lopez circa Oct/Nov 2008. Boras went out of his way to dismiss the seriousness of this interest. In due course, Boras signed Lopez with the D’backs for $3.5MM, 1 year.
Lopez had a year not entirely unlike Jeff Weaver in 2006. Goldilocks was crummy with the Angels, mediocre with the Cards, yet then happily perked up for the playoffs. The Cards and Boras could not agree on a price for this up and down year and Weaver left. With Lopez, Boras must have argued Felipe had “re-established” himself as a $5MM player by hitting well in Aug/Sept 08, while maybe Mo valued him at $2.5MM, given an uneven year. If so, that would seem a reasonable disagreement.
During 2009, however, Lopez played well for a complete season. In a liquid market for player services, Felipe should deserve in the vicinity of $5MM for 2010. At that price, even if fair by the wage scale, Mo may want to hold off, keep some powder, and see what the Cards most need, come mid-March.
Cutler???? .. . . . Damn. I owe somebody a case of the AB product of my choice. I’ll interpret that as AB-Inbev, and find some kind of foreign mess that will do nicely. Don’t they have something with a worm in it?
Brian, when you get down to Jupiter, keep your eyes peeled for info on Jack the Ripper, will you?
Lotsa words stating what we already knew, Jumbo. I guess you answered my question by not answering.
bb, I would be surprised if Jack is still not employed by FS Midwest. That doesn’t mean he will be in Jupiter, though…
Goold tweeted that Cutler also had to catch Samuel today – talk about one extreme to the other!
“if you don`t think they are playing to win then you are obsessed with your conspiracy theories.”
BINGO – WE HAVE A WINNER!
Thanks, CC. Strauss later tweeted that Samuel fired a couple of one-hoppers off the clubhouse wall, so Mr. Cutler may have had a tough day.
A couple of comments:
While Lugo may technically be in a competition for a backup IF spot, I can’t imagine a situation outside of injury that sees him left off of the team in favor of Gotay or Greene.
The Cardinals, like every other MLB team, will obviously try to pay a player as little as possible in order to play for them. I don’t know if offering a contract that would be refused at this point should be considered disrespectful or simply pointless.
Pujols is not going to start any “trade me rants” this next season. That would not be in keeping with any of his past behavior.
The Globe-Democrat basically says that the Gotay signing was meant to appease Molina, rather than Pujols: http://www.globe-democrat.com/news/2010/feb/19/gotays-friendship-molina-helped-direct-him-cardina/
Nut the ranting was specific to certain conditions……..as stated.
Nice article about Gotay. Why do you think someone telling a story like that would miss the fact that he was signed in late November, not January? …………… Heck, I gave Mo credit for researching it………he’s just a friend of Yadi’s. What do you know……….. Yadi’s best friend….. that might be nice.
Who wouldn’t love a guy like this……ready to play third too.
I too would be shocked if Westie’s fantasy of Pujols making trade ramblings this year came true. If they did though. I’d be beating the banner for Mo to call his bluff. I’d be less surprised if it happened over the Winter though.
How about Gotay/Thurston ending up as your 3r base man. Will all other wannabes be give nice write ups like that. He makes the team, for reasons other than baseball. I could care less. This isn’t about baseball. This is about premeditate posturing by the Cardinals.
I’ve already decide Albert goes to Boston. Like Lozano, I’m just trying get on top this story.
Lozano made the call to Lopez.because he had position. He will make a little money eventually, but more importantly he stays in the Cardinals face.
I’m all for sending Pujols away……………. I know he’s going to choke in April. His true situation is too much pressure for an athlete. There is a tactical precedent already set. His only way out is to hit forth……….he won’t.
Replying to Brian’s #33: You asked how to reconcile paying Lopez the minimum and then giving him a low offer for 2008 constituted respect?
The first half of this question, I do not understand. Every team that resigns a player who has been released, but still getting paid under an original contract, will get paid the minimum. Paying Lopez a pro-rated minimum for Aug/Sept 2008 seems conventional and not at all disrespectful.
As to the second point, I suggested the Cards and Boras had a difference of opinion about Lopez’s value after 2008. This tends to happen when agents claim only the end of the season performance matters, as with Lopez in 08 or Weaver in 06. I dont think it is disrespectful to have differing valuations over partial year excellence.
However, in 2009, Lopez had a complete season. His salary is generally well established around $5MM in a healthy labor market. Maybe some team will still accept this price. If not, Lopez is going to need to lower his asking price, just to get a job.
It is strange how many negative comments about Pujols show up here. Albert is said to be surly or greedy for wanting to be paid fairly. (I would definitely be surly, if I was the center of so much attention.) Or the team chemistry is bad. Or players are recruited because Latino and will be Albert’s buds, some claim. Pujols is going to “choke in April” predicts Westie. Jeesh.
I find such comments unpersuasive and tedious. Pujols has a job, to play first base and hit; he is not responsible for making every member of the team or the press adore him. He seems generous with charities and looks skyward when he touches homeplate.
There must be worse human beings that Albert Pujols. I like the job he does.
Clark keeping job as analyst. The rest of the FSM crew will be the same also. I guess I missed the P-D article on it earlier. I guess Al Hrabosky is out of the dog house too.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/dancaesar/story/572E09E2889D8E43862576CF00034FEA?OpenDocument
Thanks for sharing the link, bb. No surprises.
Buried deep in Leach’s blog:
“La Russa said he wouldn’t rule out anyone but Albert Pujols, Matt Holliday and the pitcher from batting in the No. 2 spot this year…….
He also said that given Holliday’s presence behind Pujols in the order, the Cardinals may be more inclined to put on plays with their No. 2 hitter. That’s because they feel that Pujols batting with an open base is less of a problem than it would have been before Holliday’s arrival.”
This struck me as the most interesting thing I’ve heard so far from Jupiter.
My interpretation (hope?) is that is a veiled reference to better utilizing Rasmus’ skills this year. He offers the best chance of the “danger” TLR always wants there. At this point of the spring, TLR would never give any spot to anyone other than the big two, of course. This will clearly bear watching in the early games, but especially with Ryan out, I would not be surprised to see Skip and Colby at the top of the order in the first contests…
I found a more detailed piece about it at the Globe-Democrat.
Nutlaw, re 37, the MLB labor market is, to put it mildly, highly unionized. There is a very successful and well to do union. In keeping with this, there may be some etiquettes Mo follows.
Felipe Lopez hires a new agent. Mo might call up and say how much the Cards enjoyed Lopez playing here in 2008. Mo could say that regrettably the Cards do not have the budget flexibility to offer Lopez a fair salary, $5MM. This would inform the agent and allow the agent to say Lopez will take $3.5MM again in 2009. But if the agent does not offer this lower price, then the conversation ends and Mo can hint, as he did to the Post-Dispatch, that the Cards are not going to be making any more deals until near the end of spring training. Mo probably does not want to call up and make a low ball offer directly, because this may not fit with the etiquette of team/union/agent relationships.
I would argue that a GM that follows the “etiquette” that you suggest Jumbo would not be very successful and an agent that allowed it also would not be doing so. A smart agent would never make the first offer and a smart GM would never make anything but a lowball offer to open. It is basic negotiating 101 that is proven through many studies and research. To ignore that for the sake of etiquette would be very costly – I cant see businessmen owners like BD accepting it. Of course I’ve never accused baseball GM’s f being the brightest group out there.
Carioca, this is a very unionized labor market. Mo and BD know how the game is played. (BD himself sat in on conversations with Boras re Holliday.)
The economic environment of veteran free agency gives the agent/player a lot of leverage. This is just the way it is. This is why in September-December the Cards pay the piper of the industry wage rate.
Also for a team, its a multi-year negotiating game. Mo has some interest in his long-term reputation with agents. Mo can say he likes Lopez, but can’t afford his fair price in a healthy labor market. This would be courteous, since it acknowledges Felipe’s value. If an agent wants a deal, he can hint at willingness to accept a sub-market price and then Mo would have permission to hint at the parameters of a deal.
Beau, I don’t know what you did in the real world but I’d guess it didn’t involve a lot of competitive negotiation. Unions and agents understand competition and markets as well as anyone. The only people who sometimes get offended by lowball offers are players with inflated egos. I’m sure Damon was offended by the Yankees offer but in the end he is going to be more offended by his own ego.
Wow. Can’t believe the comments went all over the place with this one. I don’t envy you, Brian.
The various combinations of bench players are mind-boggling. I *want* both Allen Craig and Joe Mather to join Jason LaRue and Julio Lugo. If I get my wish, that gives Gotay the lead for the final spot because of his switch-hitting ability.
Thing is, I don’t really like that combination of players.
I *want* a solid left-handed hitter off the bench. Aside from starters, I don’t see one. Jon Jay? If he makes the team, I can’t see a situation where Craig, Mather and Jay all make the team.
I know the outside world thinks Flip Lopez is the answer but I’m not real crazy about him either. It’s all just a little too wide open right now.
Ahhhhhhhhhh, spring training.
Well, it looks like Mo has slammed the door on Flip. There must be some behind the scene issue with Lopez is all I can think of for the lack of interest from the Cards and anyone else.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/0BC4264A08368230862576D100017364?OpenDocument
Carioca, you like to think about how tough you would be in negotiations with ballplayers. I am happy you can be happy imagining yourself as a tough negotiator for a team. Its easy to be a tough guy when a player is under control. Then the number crunchers on both sides do their thing and come up with a narrow range of possibilities, in most cases. Once a player, amateur or vet, has genuine free agency, then things get trickier.
Imagine Walt dishing up $30MM to sign Chapman, a Cuban southpaw. How many people saw this one coming? But Walt knew where he wanted to place a bet and bet the farm, outbidding 29 other teams, many with bigger budgets. Walt adjusted to facts, and was decisive and bold. His gamble may turn out well, or it may not since the arms of pitchers are vulnerable, but it was calculated.
BD and Meau, too, know the ropes, they know when to bid high and when to hold ‘em. They know how to play the games with the union and agents, how to be courteous. There is no reason not to be so.
Bling, there is no “behind the scene” issue with Felipe Lopez. It is only a genuinely weak deflationary economy, teams are cutting back, and as a result there are tough negotiations between teams and players. Lopez will ultimately find a job for 2010.
Walt saw a player he wanted and did what he thought was necessary to get him just as we did with Holliday. You can argue whether one paid more than the player is worth and you could also argue whether one paid more than was necessary. Neither argument is related to your idea of offending agents and the union. It defies logic that presenting a player with possibly the best offer he is going to get would be considered discourteous. Again, players get offended due to egos – agents (for the most part) are professionals and understand any offer is better than none and at least represents a starting point.
We will just have to disagree about Flip, Jumbo. But now I accept that the Cards would rather look at the half dozen holes he could plug that look at Lopez. So be it.
I think I’m with jonseals as far as generally liking the wing and prayer guys, but not quite seeing a combination of them as solving the lineup/bench/depth issues. But since that’s how it is going to be, it seems, I’ll get on board. Gotay will pretty much have to be on the roster, unless he draws flies this spring.
CC, Jumbo, over on the Oldest Cardinal thread is a link to an article which has a story about Cards GM Branch Rickey. The player had sent Rickey a note saying if he couldn’t get paid more he’d have to go back to working in the foundry. Rickey’s response, “Good luck”. Walt and Mo are just a couple of softies.
It looks like Boras salvaged the Damon situation pretty good. 1/8 with no deferred is more than I thought anybody would be spending at this point.
Ken Rosenthal strongly suggests that Boras purposely didn’t engage the Yankees on Damon to keep them as a threat against Mo. The idea is that Boras needed an obvious place to threaten to send Holliday on a one-year deal if the Cards didn’t meet his price.
I remember somebody arguing that position here on TCNB quite a while back. It didn’t get much traction IIMC.
I think a more plausible story is that Boras/Damon misread the market badly. The incredibly misguided opening position they took with the Yankees (”don’t even make me an offer unless it is a two-year deal paying as least as much per year as the $13M I earned in 2009″) meant that Cashman didn’t have to do anything other than look for a replacement.
As an aside, that failed strategy sure doesn’t align with Jumbo’s etiquette view of the world where everyone respects everyone else.
Don’t know what Boras did or didn’t but I certainly think their were more possibilities than the RSox and Yankees for a one year deal.
I wish Westie was here to explain how Bud told Boras to do that so the Cards would sign Holliday thus allowing them to let Albert escape to the Red Sox. Did I get that right Westie ?
Particularly since Cashman’s offer must have surely offended Damon, his agent, and the Union. Heck, the Yankees will be lucky if they ever get another top free agent to sign there in the next 10 years.
As stated when it happened……………. Boras knew from day one that the Yankees weren’t players. He was using them as a foundation for Damon’s market value. It made them look good as well. Its bad form to shame a Yankee hero as Cashman well knows. This is hardly complicated or even news. Damon will drown in Detroit. Just another bad move by losers.
How about that Albert. He thinks the Cards have put together their best team in his tenure. I guess that won’t be a negotiating issue or complaint used by anyone in particular. The news is in the MM Pujols video. Here ’s what GH said;
A nice bit of video illuminating some of the challenges MM has in addressing a legend. Challenges are these;
Albert ended the season in a grim slump. Six very small bone chips do not make a slump. Ligament was fine. Albert could not deal with the pitch on the hands, and subsequent tactical pitch combination’s. His adjustments were completely inadequate, including the open stance which he attempts on video to explain as one of his elected solution. MM went right after the issue by examining the necessity for an adjusted knee flex for balance and also trying to sneak in a tiny suggestion for closing his stance a bit to combat opening his front side to soon. This was commented on endlessly by everyone’s TV commentators.
Albert’s description of his hitting tactics shows what a brilliant instinctive hitter he is. His challenge will be including someone in his process.
Hal McRae never would (could). I see that MM is the real thing. He understands the delicate “ego” politics of Albert’s complicated self image. He will need endless patients. Albert’s denial of the causation of his funk was present in their conversation. There is lies contest. Taming a wild thing is a huge challenge. Both will have to make an attempt for this to be successful. I would say that MM could be the solution to many of Albert’s issues. If it doesn’t go well, hard times for both I’m afraid. Mark, if you read this, a warning. Do not approach Albert when he is pouting. There is a time for advice and that ain’t it.
The little complication with AJ at the end was dealt with by MM gracefully. AJ wanted to hit a while with the new coach. Daddy say its time to go. He was hitting Lf last yr. Looks like he has shifted back, unless he’s going to be a switch hitter. That moment is an indication of both men’s awareness of the delicate nature of their “Dance” before the camera.
Since I’m on a Westie rant tonight (to bad he’s not here to defend himself)
http://yourenotagolfer.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/02/pujols_i_have_95_percent_chanc.html
“I think we played it the right way,” he said. “Both of the doctors have experience. Dr. Paletta had the experience with Chris Carpenter, what he’s done with his elbow. A year before, they had to [transpose my] ulnar nerve. He felt that, let’s do that, and maybe the year after that we’ll remove the bone spur….”
I guess that shoots down Westie’s theory that Pujols went behind the Cardinal’s back to see Dr. Andrew — or is Albert defending Dr. Paletta in order to get traded? And where does Bud fit in here?
I think I hear some noise back behind the water cooler. Na, those shoes and skinny legs can’t have a player in them.
If Bud had anything at all to do with anything, it was helping convince George S. to hand off to Hal and Hank last winter. The absence of George explains the many millions less spent by teams on FA’s this year. Without George controlling the Yankees, John Henry does not need to buy the downslope of Albert’s career. Relax Westy. Last week, I made snow angels with my grandkids. It was great therapy. I had a Jumbo-like worldview for a couple days.
Albert’s detailed interview points tell you exactly what went on in the negotiations BB. I’m no longer guessing at my speculations. The announcement by Mo had one function. If Lopez ends up in Milwaukee in the next 10 days, I will be 100% sure of Buds involvement.
Added though. Bud is attempting to help Oakland land a new stadium and move to Fremont. Bad news is they just closed the Toyota plant there. Oakland was in trouble with Holiday going beyond the trade deadline. Bud may have been right there facilitating the Lugo deal to enabling BD to make the Holiday deal. That’s why details of that deal are off limits. BD’s and Buds moment on deciding the MM move is also interesting. Bud is working on something here………….. Pujols looks in top shape. His statements show he is in a game and the nature of it. I’m stalking something yes, nervous, no. I’m just exercising, working on a paper.
Wow, maybe we should stop worrying about PED’s by players and start drug testing baseball blog and forum posters!
As long as proprietors are exempted. I am not here to talk about the past. What I did was regrettable. I only wish there had been drug testing when I started blogging. Then I wouldn’t be here having this conversation today. I tried it to deal with my carpal tunnel syndrome but my use of substances did not affect the length of my articles. They came from my God-given talent and hard work. As I honed my hand-eye coordination, I became a better, smarter writer. I now just want to share my experience with others…
Hopefully your HOF aspirations are in tact.
By the way, do you happen to know if they test for prozac and viagra, just wondering, for a friend?
Nonlinear differential equation. The sum is ever changing. The variables become predictable in their relationship. After awhile everything becomes predictable, and then of course meaningless. If I had aspirations, I would start researching a very private article. Out on the coast, if we see size 36 tracks, its either Shaq dragging his feet, or something this way comes………………. Think about it Brian. BD has a problem and goes to his friend. They develop a plan that fulfills a need. Commish footprints everywhere you look. The brand new market dynamic suggests the some owners may be taking advantage of a willing Commish before his term ends and the other owners vote that influence out. Kind of like the bundled securities free fall in time to enjoy W’s protection. You won’t push the domino here, but could have a nice piece ready before they stop falling. Albert looks like he lost 10lbs. Looks fantastic. He is in a defensive mode for a reason. Lozano is scrambling after talking to BD. He didn’t since any fear there by the looks of it. He is struggling to understand why is my guess.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/MLB-spring-training-buzz-021510
Right Brian…………..and who came up with these ideas with Mo clarifying everything, just how it was. This type of article comes into being for a purpose. Within it holds the excuse the for BD overpaying, for Boras taking the heat on Damon, no doubt why Lopez jumped.. What a joke………some execs.? I wonder who phoned that hunch in? Gordo….. I’m looking around for Dick Cheney and company. This article and its attempt at controlling the dialog is just to stop the questions. You know that the collusion suit on this would be in the 100s of millions…………..let alone that it has to cover the Pujols departure.
So, Westy, I take it the Tigers didn’t just happen to show up with enough money to make Damon a happy camper? Lopez, I take it, will be fat and happy too?
The Tigers are losers BB. They are looking for a stabilizing agent to lead the riff raff they have paid so much for. He’s to sell tickets. He will be injured most of the year….if he’s lucky. I have Lopez going to the Brewers. 2mill with incentives. Lozano can’t do much with him at this point. Bud helps out the home boys………. Mo’s announcement of their disinterest was for Lopez’s sake. They are pushing toward a deal somewhere away from here. Lopez is just a victim here.
Read that article closely and ask………which exec’s are even remotely involved in this situation. Asking obscure questions. Mo’s starting to sweat this little game. He called this in, and responded to the inquiry willingly. What, the Yankees could have had Damon at any time. They don’t care where he goes.
Boston and NY are going to be beneficiaries of something for there patients. That is my contention.
EL, I doubt that we see anything like this video in the future. I’m sure there will be little public recognition or validation of MM by AP. This makes any blaming unlikely.
I’m impressed that MM went right after Pujols’ issues on camera. That tells me he is trying to earn Albert’s acceptance of that roll with this public recognition that could validates his credentials as a hitting coach. He thinks big. I’m a little disappointed that AP pulled AJ out of a few swing with MM’s tutelage. On Sunday, a 5 min delay to allow his son to hang out with a famous player represents some insecurities on AP part. I hope he was intending to spare MM any distraction on special attention for his boy. I hope. It would have made sensational PR for Mark.. The Dark side is obvious. Albert is trying to make AJ a switch hitter and doesn’t want Mark screwing him up???????? Gulp. Subliminal maybe. There are awesome virtuoso forces at play here. Lets enjoy.
An added note. Albert did not respond to his own video last year. There is tension between his physical self image, and the reflected image of the camera. He is a physical/tactile learner. He will be challenged by this problem and that may cause tension for a coach.
There is a pretty good article this morning on the Viva El Birdos blog which alalyzes and points out the ridiculousness of Mo’s position on Lopez, and specifically the ‘trading for’ rather than signing comment Mo made.
http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2010/2/22/1320852/2010/2/22/1320852/trading-for-a-very-specific-kind
I don’t get the trade angle either. It makes no sense.
It will be very interesting to see Shelby Miller in big league camp. Am I to understand that he will pitch in ST games? I guess being issued #91 will keep him from getting a big head:)
Miller will pitch in camp. Whether he will actually be called upon to pitch in actual games against major leaguers starting March 4 remains to be seen. You can tell which way my guess is leaning, but it is also worth noting that minor league camp doesn’t open until the 8th, so there is a window.
I took Mo’s trade comments along with others he has made to mean he didn’t think anyone (Lopez) would be available as a FA when he actually makes a decision down the line thus a trade was the likely scenario. It also may mean he only wants someone who would be here and affordable for multiple years.
K. Greene not reporting to Rangers. Wish him well.
“The Rangers were informed on Sunday that Greene will not be reporting this week because he is dealing with social anxiety disorder, an issue that put him on the disabled list twice last year while with the Cardinals.
“It impacts us tremendously,” Rangers manager Ron Washington said. “We were depending on Khalil.”
Shame on you, Mr. Washington…
“It impacts us tremendously,” Rangers manager Ron Washington said. “We were depending on Khalil.”
Is he serious? Like I continue to say, I’m not confident baseball people are always the smartest n the planet.
As I understand it, the Cards kinda took a chance along the same lines, except for $4M. The better documentation of the issue led to the far lower contract ($.750M), but I too can’t figure the ‘depending’ angle. The ‘Jumbo” theory would be that Washington is just being nice. The ‘Westy’ theory is they are positioning to void the contract.
It was $6.5 million last year plus two players, but your point stands, bb.
bb, I like your interpretations of the various world views!
So Bittle is brittle (how could you let me beat you t that one Brian, I don’t know
).
I thought it was a worthwhile risk but never understood how the pundit rankers could ignore the fact that he couldn’t answer the bell last year for us and rank him highly.
CC, if you hurry, maybe you can establish ownership of “Brittle Bittle” as Pat Riley owns “Three-Peat” and I don’t know who owns “Who Dat?”
I recall commenting when we did our rankings how consistent our independent placements of Bittle were. All three votes were either #22 or 23. As I said at the time, for me Bittle’s placement was as much about the diminished level of competition as it was confidence in him. Shortly after in the 20’s, I ranked a couple of kids from the overseas academies…
Yikes. Did Ron Washington follow that up by handing Josh Hamilton a beer?
Aaron said he hoped to meet top prospect Jason Heyward(notes), who is only 20 but has a chance to win a starting job in right field—Aaron’s old position with the Milwaukee and Atlanta Braves.
Heyward is black and from McDonough, Ga., near Atlanta. Aaron, scanning the players on the field, noted he didn’t see other black players.
“I think we’re on the right track but it dampens my spirit when I come up to spring training and I look around here and you don’t see any black kids,” he said. “It hurts you, because Jackie Robinson a long time ago paid his dues and … now we don’t have any.
“And this is a scene you see all over the major leagues. This is not only here with the Braves. You can go to every ballclub and see the same thing, you don’t see too many African-American kids playing baseball, and that’s not very good. Something needs to be done about it.”
Funny. Since Hank has worked in MLB for many years, he should be familiar with RBI, Reviving Baseball in Inner Cities. Those programs take a long time to bear fruit, though RBI has been in place for 20 years now…
It was a major part of what the local ownership was focusing on in Memphis, though they had to cut back quite a bit when the money problems got heavy last season and they basically outsourced running the business side of the team.
It’s just not the game of choice in HS any more. FB BB Track.
Trying to revive baseball in the inner cities is probably not a wise use of resources. The economics don’t allow space for fields and pick up games which is what is needed. Better to concentrate on the burbs and the country (and there are plenty of minority areas like that in the South).
One only has to look at Brazil and see the future of baseball for city kids. At least with soccer you can play on the beach and small courts. But the only city players who make it anymore are the talented ones plucked from those and placed with club teams. Baseball could do something similar if they set up academies but they have chosen not to do so. The only places in brazil that generate true soccer players anymore is outside of the cities where there is room for soccer fields.
Brian, here in Latin America we consider compliance with that copyright and trademark stuff voluntary and optional. I’d hate to see what would happen to my cd and dvd collections otherwise let alone my closet.
I don’t remember inner city kids having any more access to ballfields in the 60’s and 70’s than they do now. It seems like just a thing where city kids don’t choose to get involved in baseball, favoring other pursuits.
It would be hard on the old timers like Aaron to see that black kids are not taking advantage of the opportunity that those guys carved out. But, to each his own. It’s a free country and nobody has to devote their youthful years to baseball if they don’t want to.
Maybe if they want inner city kids in baseball they should encourage guns in the clubhouse instead of banning them.
The big city inner city environment produces plenty of thugs and punks, and I’m not sorry they don’t go in for baseball. But I wonder how many Aarons and Stargels and McGees and Gibsons and Say hey kids we will never get to see because black kids are not playing.
In thinking about the idea of promoting baseball in the inner cities, and the lack of black ball players, it occurred to me that now-a-days there are surely far more black kids growing up in the burbs than there were 30-40-50 years ago. But they are not playing either. Doing a very quick and unscientific check into a couple dozen players from the 60′, 70’s and 80’s, I saw that the black players came from all different environments and not primarily from big city inner cities.
It seems inescaple that the idea of a linking inner city and black ball players is more related to unintentional racial stereotyping than to the reality that many, if not most, black ball players never came from that environment anyway. If black kids growing up in the burbs, small and mid-sized towns and rural areas are not choosing to devote their youthful years to baseball, the RBI efforts are not going to put more black players in the major leagues. So it should be no surprise that 20 years of the program has had no effect.
When Hank says it’s a shame, I agree. When he says somebody ought to do something, I wonder who the ’somebody’ is and what the ’something’ is he’s talking about. Like I said earlier, its probably just sadness that black kids are not taking advantage of the opportunity that those old-timers pioneered.
I understand Hank’s frustration, but if he is not in a position to change anything, who is?
In my area travel baseball begins with coach pitch teams, believe it or not. By 10 years of age most of your better baseball players have begun focusing on baseball only and play it year round. My older two boys did just that.
Baseball is the one sport where that slow white kid can beat the brakes off a athletic black kid because of his knowledge of the game. I have really good athletic black kids come out every year who want to play baseball but they are so far behind in their knowledge of the game their athleticism doesn’t help them in any way. They can’t begin to compete and subsequently quit.
Every baseball player on my team plays only baseball, no football, or basketball.
We play teams every year who may have one or two really good baseball players that are black and it always shocks me to see them. But they are still lacking alot of the experience that one needs to be great.
Case in point, we played a team called Wetumpka, from Alabama, on our opening day this year. I had the 5 best players in Alabama and their teams come down to our place for a opening day scout bonanza. Reggie Golden (a fine black baseball playing athlete) is ranked in the top 25 in the country and will most likely be a 1st or 2nd round pick in this years MLB draft, and he is from Wetumpka. Reggie is a monster athlete. Benches over 400+, runs a 6.6, has thrown 96 from the outfield. First round tools.
The first game Reggie played in the other team walked him 4 straight times. Scouts were really complaining about not getting to see him swing the stick. We played Reggie and Wetumpka in the last game of the night. I told them to stick around for he wouldn’t walk a single time in the night cap. I promised them that.
You see no matter how good he is athletically he still lacks the knowledge to make him a dominant player against a team that understands his lack of experience. I pitched my shortstop who signed with Auburn. Reggie signed with Alabama. My shortstop, Tyler Dial, is a far superior baseball player to Reggie but not the athlete. Reggie struck out 3 times and grounded weakly to 2nd base one time. You see Reggie had never seen a changeup before. We threw change ups three consecutive pitches and he swung early each time never making an adjustment. Great athlete but lacks the experience needed to be a superior player at this point.
We had an all black team in our area , so we had to play them, a few years back and we found that we could hit the lead off guy with a FB in the middle of the back and the rest of the game the remainder of their team wouldn’t get close enough to even swing the bat. They didn’t understand that the ball wouldn’t kill them because they had not played enough baseball to have gotten hit before.
I know MLB teams are trying to get more black baseball players involved in the game. Black kids are overdrafted every year in hopes of that player being the next Ken Griffey Jr. Reggie will be an overdraft. He will be drafted much higher than he is worth because he is black and baseball needs more black players. He will be drafted in hopes that the club will be able to give him the experience that he needs to catch up with the more experienced players.
I don’t know the solution to the problem. My best baseball players have fathers who throw with them every day and have since they were 4 or 5. Most likely the majority of black fathers would much rather go out and shoot some hoops or throw some slants or deep post patterns to their sons because that is what they did growing up with their dads.
IMO MLB would need to invest in baseball programs for black kids at a real young age or form academies where the best of the best could learn the ins and outs of the game.
WC,
Jason Heyword is one of the best baseball players I have ever coached against. We played his Henry County team a few years back and wasn’t your typical black baseball player. His knowledge of the game was most likely superior to anyone on either team that day. We won most of the battles against him that day but he did hit a 500+ monster shot that we still talk about today. Jason was a great kid as well as a super baseball player. Reggie Golden is also a great kid by the way, just not the player Jason was at the same stage of his career.
Bling, well said.
Well, the question of what kind of change would get more black kids to play would be a good doctoral thesis. Maybe Westy will take it on. I don’t think it is lack of access nor lack of opportunity.
It does seem like a lot of players started out as kids with their dad in the back yard. Maybe the increase in fatherless black households over the last few decades has had an effect, I don’t know. There are more fatherless white households too. Contemplating that sort of thing in any sort of informed way is out of my league.
But my point is that “changes’ aimed at increasing access and/or opportunity will not help since those things don’t seem to be any different than in past decades. Figuring out what is different now is the key. I really don’t know if Hank is any better positioned than you or I to figure that out.
Nice info RC. My dad played before he got shot up in Korea. When I was a kid he used to pitch to me in the back yard and would always drill me in the ribs once or twice. If I groused about it he’d say I could switch to playing with dolls if I wanted to. I was never any good but I had fun playing and was never afraid to stand in their there.
Great stories RC. One of these days your going to look out of your dugout and see a black kid going to the plate with a piece of plywood taped to his back. Your going to yell at the umpire who turns his handsome black face in your direction and yells, “play ball”……………
BB, Its a cultural thing. Baseball does not offer the opportunities for “strutting” and public celebrations that the other sport have. Its too slow. Pete Carrol leaving USC is an example of how complex this problem is becoming. Thank god for melting ice sheets and RC. We’ll getter straightened out.
Good one about the sheet of plywood, Westy. There’s no Pete Carrol in baseball, but lets leave that. It’s the melting ice sheets I’m interested in.
BA top 100 prospect list has only one Cardinal, Shelby Miller at #50.
WC,
you are right about the strutting and stuff. I had a really good black player a few years back who had trouble understanding that scouts didn’t enjoy seeing alot of the stereotypical associations that black players get stuck with. This guy of mine felt the need to pull his baseball pants down below his hips and bust a sag ON THE BASEBALL DIAMOND, IN FRONT OF SCOUTS. I am tremendously against that ridiculous look, especially on a baseball player.
This player of mine knew my objections to even thinking about doing such but during a game one day he got a single and as he got to first pulled his pants down so far that his shirt came out and we could all see his shorts which he wore over his underwear. Unfortunately for him I took him out of the game, forced him to undress in the dugout and sent him home in those shorts and nothing else. He never played another inning for me.
He is now the coach of his son’s little league team and has told me more than once how he won’t let his kids sag their clothes much less their baseball attire. Go figure.
There are elemental forces at “play” always BB. Whether we realize it of not, all competitive sports are really just reproductive displays. Some are very territorial, some more veiled. All are about reproductive selectivity. The principles of species differentiation, and within a set group, the competition for the select individual are all at play. In our modern world, this still plays out somewhere between the whale bone Club………………………….and the “Roman” platinum card.
The Ice sheet represents the resonant organization of matter and the transient nature of its form on the higher spectrum organizations that represent the complex biology of” life forms”. Without putting to fine a point on this, lets suggest the certain cultural groups, because of their violent removal from the ritual and custom that arise from a long relationship with a selected “biosphere”, are now trying to establish a “viability” hierarchy of their own in a new and hostile medium. Unfortunately, this attempt is happening within the territorial boundaries (RC’s Baseball Diamond ?) of one of the most formidable and aggressive predators that has ever roamed the planet. (Antony R.) Bound to be some free form” improvisatory” communications down there around the “Club” end of the spectrum………………. as we gracefully homogenize.
I think the dad element is an important point. I don’t think most kids get their first glove because they ask for it – i think dad just buys it for them. Do single moms do that?
OK, how about we leave the ice sheet thing too. I more or less get your point about the competitive/territorial/selection of the fittest angle. The product of a million years of evolution doesn’t disappear the moment it no longer serves.
Its a natural process BB. It does not exist outside any system of organization or reference. It will work itself out.
I bet when RC invites that school back to play it looks more like this;
The first batter comes to the plate. Its John Henry Johnson, the 6′5″, 257lbs defensive end on the state champion 5A football team. No one even knew that he played baseball. RC’s pitcher looks toward their dugout and sees a row of 300lb defensive linemen perched on the top step, all looking at him. He looks back in at his catcher to see if he really is going to drop the fist………or something more prudent like a single finger point well to his right. Catcher looks into the dugout and see’s RC’s smiling face. He takes the sign, winds up and fires………low and away. Wisdom prevails, a fair contest ensues and a fine game of baseball is enjoyed by all. Lesson taught. Lesson learned. Intimidation plays both ways. When that becomes a non factor, the game is elevated, as are the ceremonial and symbolic representations of the victory celebrations. The victorious male doesn’t spend time dancing around a conquest, he’s over posing for the cheerleaders……………………….at least that how I was taught.
Bittle was an injury threatened senior sign, cheap, for the 4th round. Maybe the Cards saved $175,000 that they instead invested in going way over slot for Shelby Miller.
Anybody short on time to look through all the pics from Jupiter today, I wittled it down to four. The last one is Colby taking a cut in BP sporting a monster leg kick. Worth a look.
BTW, I didn’t know there was such a thing as “twitpics”, the first one is off John Marecek’s twitter feed. My 14 yr old daughter thinks me setting up a twitter account is “disturbing”.
ESPN Baseball Tonight van in the lot at Roger Dean. Guess they want to cover the Marlins
http://twitpic.com/14wbsi
Penny sporting stirrups, I take back anything bad I said about him
http://yourenotagolfer.mlblogs.com/Penny-and-Carp.jpg
Brendan taking grounders with cast, not sporting stirrups. Probably the pain meds is all
http://yourenotagolfer.mlblogs.com/Ryan-with-cast.jpg
Colby taking a cut in BP. Monster leg kick. If somebody throws one at his left knee he’s screwed
http://yourenotagolfer.mlblogs.com/Raz-takes-BP.jpg
Buster Olney, who knows everything and is never wrong, ahem, says:
Heard this: Official involved in the Felipe Lopez bidding still thinks he’ll wind up with the Cardinals, in the end. We’ll see.
about 8 hours ago via web
Buster_ESPN
One last thing, the ESPN van at Roger Dean gave me the idea to check ESPN.com MLB page.
Kind of an interesting piece “The Case Against LaRussa” Its based on an article on the Fungoes blog today. Apparently, Tony’s only worth two wins and his $4.5M salary would be better spent on an impact player next year.
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/2480/the-case-against-la-russay
Check out this leg kick Bling.
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6326075
Adam Lind also has a good video showing a big leg kick. Holliday also sports one. It is nothing more than a timing mechanism.
With that kind of leg work he should look into dancing with the stars next winter.
Seriously, I thought he looked like a mirror image of Holliday. Looks fit and healthy. Lets see some dingers, rockets, frozen ropes, gappers, wholesalers, bombs, dongs, goners, gopher balls, moonshots, taters and maybe a couple salamis.
you did call for a fastball away didn’t you RC? or was it a mutiny?
BB, all rumors attributed to the Cards in recent weeks have the Cardinal Front office involved.
The Yankees and the Cardinals are doing there best to cover their own vulnerabilities.
Do you really think Lozano is sitting in his office with a fist full of offers at this point? That all he has to do is have Lopez sign one?
The Cardinals are a much better team with Lopez. Lozano very much wants the Cardinals to have a big year. That is the foundation to any big time contract for Albert. You think he is sitting back trying to squeeze a few 100 thousand of which he gets 4% for Lopez when he is thinking about Pujols money? Taking control of that was his whole motivation for snapping off Lopez from a vulnerable Scott Boras. If mystery EXEC’s are placing the Cardinals at the top of the frantic bidding for Felipe, guess who they are. Better yet, guess why they’re doing it.
WC,
At RC going against the coach’s game plan will get you playing somewhere else
in a hurry.
We try to be a little different in everything we do here. Try to be better is maybe a better way of saying it, but we can lower ourselves to your level if the need arises.
The team I was speaking of did not swing the bat the entire game the first time we played them. They wiggled the bat like little leaguers the entire game. So we decided the next time we didn’t want to see that so we popped the first bat wiggler and voila, no more bat wiggling
As for your big football player scenario, I can only laugh. It would be hard to intimidate any of our guys by just being big. A quick story that relates to your comment.
Years ago when Colby was a sophomore in high school, we played a team from around Montgomery Alabama. This team hit my catcher(David Browder) with the first pitch to him and then their pitcher mouthed at him all the way to first. David was a senior on my national championship team in 2005, and he was my catcher. Guy was 6′1″ and 210 lb, a beast. Next time up they hit David in the middle of his back, David took two steps toward the mound and I yelled for him to get his tail to first. Again, the pitcher walked around the mound as David went to first staring at him and smiling. Their coach laughed as well. You see WC, these guys were those big strong football players you spoke of and they thought that they were scaring everyone because they were big.
Well we tried the classy approach and it looked like the umpires and the other team didn’t want to do it that way. David came back to the dugout, I got my team together and told them that if David was hit again he was going to kick the kids tail and for our guys to make sure noone jumped in except those two.
Sure nuff, David gets back up to bat and the guy hits him in the back of the head. David went half way to first and then went after him. It looked like someone kicked over an ant bed. Mass chaos, piles of people everywhere. Colby wasn’t much of a fighter, but my son Cory could hurt you. I’m watching Cory as this breaks out as he was in the on deck circle. Cory gets to the first guy and knocks him out cold. then went to the pitcher, who was on top of David near the mound, grabs a handful of hair and knocked him out. About that time I saw Colby running for his life and then we stepped in a broke everyone up.
By the time we stopped it I had blood all over me as did my assistant coaches. The ambulance was called because of the two boys who were knocked out. It was a big mess and not one drop of blood came from one of our guys. Our only injury was Cory had broken his hand and that required pins but that was it. It was obvious that this was what the other team wanted and sometimes you need to watch what you ask for as they went home with a 15 run loss and a tail whipping to boot.
Subsequently the umpiring crew was suspended for a season and noone from our team was punished. The other teams coach was fined and suspended for a few games. In other words you stay classy until its time to get dirty
It doesn’t matter Westy. One of three things will happen. One of the wing and prayer guys goes down, ryan has a setback, Freese goes down or goes on a bender (hope not, but just sayin). At that point Flips price goes up to where the Cards can sign him without disturbing anybody’s agenda. By now, it seems clear everybody else is hands off, why exatly doesn’t matter.
I’ll stick with my position that the Yankees are up to nothing but settling into the post-George era, where for example, in the post championship glow Johnny isn’t still a Yankee with an absurdly fat one year contract, with a team option just in case Crawford does the unthinkable net winter.
Found this on FoxSports about Lopez laziness rumors. Apparently, the rumors are well known inside baaseball. Of course, the lame St. Louis sportswriters just left us in the dark. As though the reputation of a player that could end up here is of no concern to the fans.
“Still, Felipe Lopez doesn’t have a job.
The most plausible explanation is that teams are turned off by something in Lopez’s makeup. Some people in the game believe that Lopez has a tendency to get lazy.
But Mike Rivera, who played with Lopez in Milwaukee last year, believes such criticisms of Lopez are completely unfounded.
“I don’t think he has any issues outside the field, like people are talking,” said Rivera, who is competing for the Yankees’ backup catcher job this spring. “There are a lot of rumors, but I don’t think so. “
Sorry, bb, I thought folks were generally aware of Lopez’ rap or rep. Comments about lack of concentration, focus issues at times have followed him for years. All some folks in StL seem to see is his .385 batting average in 43 games in 2008.
Nothing meant for you Brian. Its just there’s been reems of column inches on the Lopez issue all winter and not one word. I guess everybody who likes baseball and reads the P-D is supposed to know about the reputation of a guy who played a few games here a couple years ago. I’m hanging my head in shame.
DIdn’t mean to sound critical. Now you made me feel bad…
Brian, Ben Bader (Baseball America) reports that the Cardinals signed a 17 y-o Dominican outfielder last November and gave him a $450,000 bonus. I cannot find independent confirmation of that signing. Do you have a clue about this? thanks
Nice of you to stop by, ArRedbird. Check out the main site no later than tomorrow morning.
If its of any use, here is a Spanish article from December from a Dominican news source that reports the signing. Says he signed with the Cards for more than $400k US and will play in Jupiter next (this) summer. Says he’s a good player with a strong arm.
http://puertoplatadigital.com/verNoticia.aspx?Id=921
Sheesh. OK, I just posted the Capellan article on the main site (subscriber-only).
“We try to be a little different in everything we do here. Try to be better is maybe a better way of saying it, but we can lower ourselves to your level if the need arises. ”
You misinterpret the purpose of my story RC. Just offering a little cover where some might think it appropriate…………………… I grew up in the North/South. Back there, you still have the sheriff and the Judge. Out here, you have AK47s and Mac 10’s. What happens on the field is the least of your problems. Out here, no one even schedules that game unless they call the national guard. I played major college football………..I know mayhem by its first name. The lesson is always for the kids. If its about the game, and you are giving them a whipping, and they’re throwing at your best player, I take him out of the game, I call the ump to home plate with their coach and I tell em, ” one more hit batter and I’m taking away the tar rag and putting out the axle grease, and coach, no matter what you decide, we’re going to meet shortly.” I let him decide how that meeting gonna go. The bigger and meaner he is, may just raise my level of animosity a bit. Maybe even make me a little vindictive. Hopefully not angry.
If your wondering, I mastered the art of Yubawanzi, which I learned from a manual I bought from an advertisement on the inside cover of a comic book when I was a boy. It can be lethal.
Just like in the movies.
Sorry to be a pest Brian. I look for excuses to use my meagre spanish ability. I did learn that Dominican sports writer lexicon bears little resemblance to textbook Castillan spanish. I’m pretty sure the article said he’d be a dominant major leaguer in short order, and that the baseball school and the agency that promotes its players to U. S. teams is having great success.
The first thing I thought of in a Raul Mondesi comp was that he also had attitude questions back in his day, thereby going full circle on the Felipe Lopez discussion from this morning…
Brian and bling — Thank you for the info / confirmation.
I always enjoy dropping by here and reading the on-going comments.
Lopez is just a problem athlete. His attitude display is standard fare for at least one player on most high school athletic teams. He had a brutal childhood and learned to control his fathers critical behavior feigning disinterest in what he was being asked to do. This happens for a number of reasons in many kids. Its stems from a fear of disapproval or failure by parents or his peer group.
He came here and did well, to be honest, because he had no competition. His behavior is repairable. His natural talent in a relaxed setting, (Brewers without hope, Cardinals with no leadership) is viable. Put into a position competitive environment, who knows. Truth be know, Cardinals have the perfect coaching staff for this kid. Tony/Okendo. I don’t believe this is about money as I’ve said.
Westy, I guess you are one of those guys that knew all the backstory all along.
I don’t like Lopez anymore. Last thing we need. Mo is right to want to minimize ‘issues’ this year. Maybe he can go play for the Yubawanzi Carp.
I know that they are in a leverage contest with Pujols. If they aren’t prepared to let him go, they’re not really negotiating.
Funny the Vice Chairman calls it. In charge of compliance to MLB bylaws. They could have said he had health problems at least.
Good stuff WC about the difficulites of growing up on the West coast.
On a side note I watched Conspiracy Theory last night with Mel Gibson, and everytime I saw Mel I thought of you, since you are the resident conspiracy theorist. Now when I see West Coast Birdwatcher I see Mel Gibson
It does seem a bit provocative to make a move without the most casual explanation that he may refute. Or acknowledge. How about, deciding to enjoy more leisure time.
I’m going to pull my kilt up here shortly.
RC you can go ahead and picture me looking like Mel Gibson too. Not in a kilt though.
I visualize more of a Snoop Dog with the chains and the rest of the bling, riding on 22’s
when I see your moniker bling.
I own 100’s of DVD’s but Braveheart is one of the few I never bought. The ending made me so mad when the old turncoat guy betrayed Mel that I had to go work out on the punching bag for a few hours. I never have watched it again.
Bling, you are more of the even keeled Cardinals fan than the conspiracy theorist. I picture you as a glass half full kind of guy rather than half empty person that I may be. The voice of reason on a message board with at least 3 rather twisted people in JS, WC and RC.
Word is that the Rangers voided Greene’s contact… Not surprising…
Brian, ArRedbird, I corresdponded with Mr. Aridio Perdomo the journalist who wrote the article on the Caballan signing for PuertoPlatadigital.com. A summary follows, which is the result of my translation from his spanish language email:
Caballan is 16 years old. Has a great arm as both pitcher and outfielder. Above average speed especially from home to first. Good baseball instincts. Flawless defense.
He suggests the kid is a very good hitter, but seemed to me a bit less enthusiastic about that aspect of the kids game.
As a 12 year old, he pitched a no-hitter in a tournament in Curacao, Netherlands Antilles.
30 U.S. teams looked at him, and he went to Boston for a try out.
It was thought by some he would sign for a larger bonus than he did, and somebody named J. Murrai, who is related to Mr. Perdomo, was involved in getting Caballan to sign with the Cards.
Mr. Perdomo says “We may be in the presence of another Albert Pujols”, because the kid has so much talent.
Thanks to Mr. Perdomo for the information.
Well if the kid turns out to be half as good as Albert he should be a hall of fame player. This is great intel Bling.
Khalil should head on back down to Key West Florida where he grew up and enjoy him a shady spot on the beach with a drink with an umbrella in it and give up baseball seeing how its driving him batty. Life is much more meaningful that worrying about striking out and choosing to hurt yourself because of it.
His former coach and I are good friends and he told me Khalil has always been a little bit different. What better place to head back to than Key West where different is the norm huh?
Gee, RC, I dont know what is twisted about daring to be player-positive and team-positive. This may be “unconventional”, I can admit to this.
RC, if you could fit some 22’s on a 94 Civic I’ll take em.
Interesting, bb. The local Puerto Plata writer is most enthusiastic. FWIW, Capellan turned 17 last September. Those who subscribe can read my 850-word article about him on the main site. I am right now posting another insider article on ten more Latin position players recently signed.
Twisted was maybe too harsh a word Jumbo. Hows about quirky?
You for your devotion to positive no matter the obstacles. West coast for his deep thoughts on the world as a whole, and my stupidity for even commenting at all
I do not try to be positive just for the sake of being so. Rather I am generally supportive of 1) players (including their agents) and 2) the current administration of the Cards. (I did not think much of the Busch ownership period.) If this makes JS quirky (and silly to be commenting at all), so be it.
My first thought on Greene was I’d have to be pretty damn anxious to not show up for a $750,000 job. But he probably doesn’t need the money, and he may be in a very bad way, who knows. Better to avoid whatever the triggers are. Lesser men would have shown up and hung around to get the money, causing the team all sorts of headaches.
One of the down sides of having an agent BB. Mulder’s agent was looking to sell some of the myth to the desperate………………………….. Green came completely unglued when he began to medicate. There is no way back now..