Just as his Cardinals centerfield predecessor Ray Lankford did, Jim Edmonds wants to return after a year out of the game.
Jim Edmonds’ ambush of Tony La Russa’s ARF “Stars to the Rescue” benefit on Sunday night to announce his desire to come back after a year out of the game and challenging La Russa to hire him was one of Monday’s biggest stories across The Cardinal Nation.
Unlike La Russa’s recent dream of sending new hitting coach Mark McGwire up to the plate as a late-season pinch-hitter, this proposal was neither of his making nor immediately completely shot down by general manager John Mozeliak. That didn’t mean that both the manager and the GM weren’t surprised.
The only commitment given the 39-year-old was that the idea would get a fair hearing in organizational meetings scheduled this week in St. Louis. While the club needs a reserve centerfielder, Edmonds hits left-handed like starter Colby Rasmus, so isn’t a perfect fit.
Edmonds did all he could to eliminate objections, though. He first volunteered to play for free, but then modified his stance. Edmonds still said he is willing to play for the major league minimum salary.
Edmonds’ move reminded me of a similar situation six years earlier when former Cardinals centerfielder Ray Lankford returned to the club after having been out of the game for a year.
Another similarity is that both players left St. Louis via trades to San Diego. After a season and a half with the Padres, Lankford did not play in 2003. As 2004 spring training camp was about to open, the Cardinals announced the signing of the then-36-year-old Lankford to a make-good deal. He earned a spot on the club as a non-roster invitee.
During that 2004 season, Lankford ended up leading the club in starts in left field with 43, but his involvement declined as the season went on. He suffered a wrist injury in late July that just preceded the arrival of Larry Walker from Colorado. Lankford returned when rosters expanded at the start of September but was not named to the post-season roster. He then became a free agent but retired for good.
Lankford first qualified for the Hall of Fame balloting this year, but failed to receive a vote and will be removed from future ballots. Whether it is in four years or perhaps six, Edmonds is assured of collecting more support in his first year of eligibility.
Lankford’s final season didn’t add much to his long and distinguished Cardinals ledger, but at least he ended his career wearing the Birds on the Bat. If for no other reason other than to do the same, I would be in favor of bringing Edmonds to spring training and if he could actually contribute to the 2010 Cardinals team, all the better.
Seems a long time (if ever) since I’ve had a post about a player in which I didn’t quote a single stat, but numbers just seemed out of place here.
The interesting part about this Edmond’s story, is that the most convenient solution for BD is to sign another player soon. Just what Tony’s aiming for I think. Edmond’s signing would be counter productive to most of BD’s development scenarios.
People are taking this idea seriously? Maybe hire him as an outfield coach would be better, if there is room on the 40 man he could get a few pinch hitting plate appearances ala Red in 1963.
No doubt Edmonds would loosen up the atmosphere in the clubhouse etc. but I can’t see giving a 25 man spot to someone that wouldn’t play much.
The Cards could use another lefty bat, with only Rasmus and Kennedy.
If the Cards could bring Juan Gonzalez into camp a few years ago, then its a no brainer to bring in Jim Edmonds as an NRI and see what he can do.
If Jimmy is on this team my guess is the outfield will do more of the same as last year. I can see Jimmy, Colby, and Luddy doing some sort of rotation in right and center, at least the first few months. Each player could get 4 or 5 starts a week like last year to start and then TLR could play the hot hand from june on. I’ve felt all along that TLR will find someone to play against LH pitching but Jimmy never entered my thought process.
I don’t see it as a negative in any way for the team. The only thing that would not be good would be if Jim couldn’t play up to the fans level of expectancy for him. But my man Brett Favre keeps coming back so why not Jimmy Ballgame!
OK, now I have to quote some stats to keep this happy reunion from spinning out of control. Edmonds’ line vs. left-handed pitching in 2008: .146/.212/.229/.441. In 2007, his OPS vs. LHP was .631. In 2006, it was .479. That is when the Cards gave up on him the first time, paying San Diego $2 million to take him away.
As bad as Ankiel was last season, his OPS against lefties was a whopping .563.
In other words, Edmonds is not the answer to play in center or anywhere else for that matter against LHP. It’s not like his bat would have sped up with a year off. May as well bat a pitcher in those situations instead.
I see two negatives. First, he’d probably be on the DL by opening day. Second, Tony would play him whether he’ a hot hand or not. One might also add that every time another big dog has marked out a spot Albert has seemed to get a bit less warm and fuzzy. Whether that’s a negative I don’t know. So in conclusion, I say sign him up and suit him up, seeing one or two of those full speed over the head catches on the track is worth all the negatives you can name.
Bling, Jimmy is fun to watch. I believe you are right in regards to playing time if Jimmy is on the team. He will play alot if his body holds up. I can see a 4 – 3 split between he and Colby in CF.
I don’t think Jimmy should take playing time away from Ludwick and he won’t take it away from Holliday so as long as TLR just swaps out Jim and Colby I think it may work.
I would hate to see that, and I don’t believe you for a damn minute.
Let me tell you how I look at it Bling, Tony is not going to play three outfielders 162 games each, its not his style. Holliday is going to play the most, Ludwick has earned the right to play the large majority of the 162 game season as well in my mind. Colby will play the least of the three aforementioned outfielders. There is going to be another one, maybe two outfielders who get a bunch of AB’s. Why not Jimmy Edmonds if that be the case?
It would benefit Colby as a player to play everyday against both LH and RH pitching but I don’t believe TLR will do that. IF Colby could be in a position to get a contract similar to Grady Sizemore, Markakis, or the new Mariners CF, then it would be important for Colby to play as much as possible in order to put up better numbers. I don’t believe that will happen so its not important. Making the six years is the important thing at this point and this will be two.
Jimmy and Colby have the same agent and Jimmy being around means free food at his place (15)
You gotta look for the perks in a deal such as this.
RC, as an experienced baseball man, how can you ignore the obvious fact that Edmonds can no longer hit LHP, when that is the one most likely situation to sit Colby?
I don’t see him as a regular platoon guy no matter what Tony would like. Don’t think he’d hold up. Besides, a 40 year old guy has no business running around center field 3 or 4 times a week. Just having him on the team is the biggest plus. Seeing Jimmy ball game step into the on deck circle in the bottom of the ninth, there isn’t a woman ever made wouldn’t have to just wait a minute for that.
Brian, I like Edmonds so I tend to not want to see all his faults. He was one guy I loved to watch play the game. He would provide leadership and that would be the biggest benefit to signing him. Do I think he would be better than is Colby at this point in his career? No I don’t.
He can’t play like he used to, he definately can’t hit LH pitching like he used to, or run down balls like he used to, but Jimmy may be as good as what can be gotten at this point. But I do think that if Jim is on the team he will play quite a bit, and I know he wouldn’t want to come back to just play occasionally or pinch hit.
We are speaking in hypotheticals and if Jimmy is on the team this is what would probably happen. Not necessarily should happen but most likely would happen. He shouldn’t play in place of Luddy, wouldn’t play in front of Matt so the only place he could play is CF.
Now all of this being said I don’t think Mo will sign him.
OK RC, it is allowed for you to be a fan, too.
Edmonds has zero bargaining leverage. If he is unwilling to take a spot duty/pinch-hitting job, then all that leadership talk turns into a big negative. A sulking Jim Edmonds is not good for any team and he has proven in the past that sulking is not beneath him. If the Cards see even the slightest risk of that happening, I would change my position in a heartbeat and NOT be in favor of bringing him in. I was thinking occasional contributor off the bench and a graceful retirement. If he is thinking of 400-450 at-bats, then sayonara, Jimbo. Enjoy the restaurant business.
I also think there are better options out there to compliment Colby. Where we do agree is on the bottom line of your previous post. Until McGwire, Mo had done a pretty good job of diffusing remaining landmines and avoiding new ones. In my initial post, I was probably the one who was unrealistic. All things considered, the limited upside in this deal is probably not worth the risk.
I was a big Edmonds fan too, but the Cardinals traded him away with good reason. I would rather see a younger player with a chance to improve show his stuff than see Edmonds continue to decline.
He couldn’t even earn a job last year. Why would there be any expectation on his part or anyone else’s that he would see regular playing time?
“the limited upside in this deal is probably not worth the risk.”
Rubbish, a lefty bat off the bench with pop, a real center fielder to back up Colby, player/coach/mentor/lighter note in the clubhouse/big name honcho who is not there for the money, veteran/stand-up guy who is willing to do anything to be able to pull on the birds on the bat. There is no way Jim would be allowed to have inappropriate expectations, and at a cheep price he could be shown the door anyway.
“there are better options out there to compliment Colby”
Like what? There are options, but what is out there that would be ‘better’, considering that Jim would play cheep allowing the payroll room to be used to shore up somewhere else.
Surely, he could be brought into camp to show what he’s got, and prove he can play without hurting himself.
It would be a big plus if Tony didn’t have a good way of sitting Colby against lefties at this point, that’s a plus for going with Jimmy.
The extremes of the views on Edmonds are rooted in the same place – past knowledge. Some see baggage where others see intrigue.
Edmonds was smart to take his case directly to the fans, where the sentimentality would come into play over the reality.
“I reject your reality, and substitute my own.”
My fears have been realized. Edmonds’ agent Paul Cohen to FOX Sports:
That should place him in the unemployment line somewhere south of Rick Ankiel and just slightly north of Antarctica.
In case anyone is watching…………………Tony is working right now. This is how you work BD……..if you think you know what he’s about. It should be obvious by now that Tony and Albert’s camp have opinions on this subject.
From an entertainment stand point, BD is going to make money selling tickets with Edmond’s in camp. But, he lost 4million on the Kennedy maneuver…….. he offed Duncan and finally wrestled Ankiel from amongst the eccentric Tony on field prerogatives. You think he is going to let Tony play the fans with this gimmick. Tony is being an agitator here. For a reason. He wants that extra money committed………now……….and if more is needed, spend it then……..he is bucking the system. BD’s system. This is the element of insecurity shared by Tony/Albert about this management team.
http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/commishs-hot-stove/commishs-hot-stove/cardinal-beat-updates/2010/01/cardinals-ludwick-avoid-arbitration/
I am startled by this number………..he had no leverage. They gave him this money. Is this a play to reduce the expectation of the Cardinals signing anything important by using powder where it doesn’t appear there is even going to be a fight? Odd to think that Ludwick would have even risked that number in a hearing.
Maybe Jimmy is casting his net wider, he would know the Cards have no job opening matching that description, unless he has picked up 3rd base in his spare time. Makes no sense at all IMO. Gives Mo all the reason he needs to put it to rest. I now expect that to happen quickly unless Jimmy does some immediate and furious backpeddling.
Aside: The Mets are paying $5M for Francouer, ha ha ha ha. They are looking at 70 games last year. Most likely he’ll be back to his old self. Maybe they think he can play center until Beltran come back, whenever that may be. Good luck with that. They will have highest payroll in NL and are just plain screwed. They could do with Jimmy or Ankiel.
Westy, I can’t tell what you believe to be the ultimate objective of the ‘Tony/Albert’ camp. I think it is to get the biggest contract ever, and by more than a token margin. Albert would like that to happen in St. Louis, but happen it will, somewhere.
That being the case, I can’t see where it matters whether the negotiation happens now or later. IMO Mo and BDW have come to that conclusion as well. So whatever the objective of team TLR/AP, the result is that toward the end of this season, when the Cards will be looking at a run for the WS, they will have to decide whether or not to trade Albert before he hits 5/10. I doubt they will, not with a strong team heading into the post-season, so instead Mo and BDW will decide to enjoy his services for another year (2011) at $16M, and then take a look at what the then 32 year old Albert is worth (and whether he is still the best player in baseball).
I would think BDW is perfectly OK with that, so I don’t quite see where Albert is going with this.
BB………you are being overly simple here. I have given up trying to explain what I see as obvious.
Here are some questions. Start spinning them like those guys on Ed Sullivan did with plates.
What is the value of a records run……..commercially? (think A-Rod……..270/ 3oo+ with incentives)
Isn’t that hats going up for sale in FA?
Isn’t it true that the only way that number will be established is through FA? (Unless the only other example is followed)
Is there really that much revenue tied up in a Two season push around those numbers?
If BD gets an opening to get his green under Cardinal Village, what does that do to his mood for sharing revenue with Albert?
If this is done preseason, the only precedents are the A-Rod agreements. Albert says,”bring it on”. BD doesn’t what to go there……….. Albert is saying that he doesn’t want to negotiate during the Up and Downs of the season for him, or the influence of other players running hot and cold.
Albert is suggesting a home town discount. Likely starting point is 300 mill. Not 200 mill. He wants to know that all saved revenues goes toward baseball operations. BD will never play that. He is the acting GM. This is the same game, same tactics as the last two years………now with a deadline. Albert come out in a slump or is injured………BD saves big money either in the contract or by trading Albert and not having to pay him…………Albert has set the Gambit. The game is at hand. Albert is pressuring himself here too………….that’s the business.
Tony/Albert both know the Holiday signing is a dual edged sword for both of them. BD paid allot for high ground. There is combat going on. Tony whats to win………Albert wants to stay high, not join the Budweiser Clydesdale team.
A post-steroid era HR king would requie a lot of things to go right besides money changing hands. Signing now puts all that risk on BDW. Waiting two years shifts some to Albert. What will Albert ‘pay’ to not have to take on that risk? If he’s counting that the’home town discount’ BDW will never fall for it. Two seperate things.
Until the Cards put an offer on the table, Albert has nothing to lose with his hard to get act. Put $200M on the table and Albert can’t move a muscle without risking it all.
Albert isn’t going to get top dollar if he signs now. Even forgetting the economy, if the Cards are going to sign him 2 years early (and take on more risk) there has to be a discount involved with that. If not, BD might as well just wait. Does Albert want to get this out of the way or does he want to go for the holy grail of contracts?
Cards need to put an offer out there as bb says – at a minimum so they can tell the public that they have made an offer to Pujols.
When is the Cards local TV contract up? This is the key to the whole deal. They aren’t going to sell that many more tickets by signing him. TV, radio, signage (particularly that picked up by the TV cameras) is the key to the economics of any deal from the Cards end.
Westie, on top of that, they could still trade him and get good return at that salary. You may not see it but the rest of the baseball world does.
CC, on the TV contracts, I am not sure, but I don’t think they are coming up soon. Three years ago, both FS Midwest and KSDK signed multi-year deals, but the years were not announced. Here is what I wrote about it in December 2006.
Thanks, of course even with a contract in place BD could go to FSN prior to signing Albert and demand say $3 million more a year if we get Pujols signed. Probably worth it.
Its good Ludwick signed; he has the same agent as Pujols. Why do the Cards get these guys signed? Because we analyze the numbers and the agent analyzes the numbers, and we try to find a fair value. No reason to take it to arbitration, if both sides are close. Arbitration only wastes money on lawyers. The Cards like to pay guys what they are worth.
I revisit my Edmonds comment of this morning. The Cards can give Edmonds an NRI offer, no guarantee. No way is Jimmy looking at 400 at bats, as his agent suggests. He might get 150-225 at bats. He is a pinch-hitter/spot starter, not a platooner.
The reason to sign Jim is sentamentality. The Cards can go with Jon Jay instead. They do not have to go with Edmonds. Jim hit some HRs in Wrigley in 2008, but would be a weaker hitter in the larger park of StL.
In fact, if Ankiel’s price weakens, Rick would make a better fit for the Cards. TLR said Rick’s hitting could be “fixed.” Ankiel can back up all three slots and could give pop off the bench. (I hope Rick gets a doctor to prescribe some more HGH and he gets his right shoulder stronger. Then Rick could make a nifty 4th OF, lefty swinger, off the bench. He would be perfect.
I think Ankiel’s swing could be fixed, but it wouldn’t stay fixed.
Good thread………..This is an interesting time. It is apparent that regardless of how Albert postures , he realizes, and I’m sure this believe is shared by Tony, that BD is using a system of valuation that has little to do with Baseball sentimentality. Albert/Tony can hurt BD, and as his behavior in the last 2 months shows, he knows it……..and doesn’t like it. No matter what evolves in these games, Albert’s value is best maintained for the benifit of all parties. It all fun to watch.
Points of interest………… I’m sure Ludwick takes 2/9.5…………..BD value flexibility above 2 million.
Shumaker is not a 300 hitter………….he shouldn’t expect to be paid as one. That is your possible 2yr deal. 2/6.5………
So Ludwick leaves $ 4 million on the table – I dont think so!
2/6.5 is more than they will commit to Skip. He’ll get 2 this year and at 4.5 next he’ll be a non tender candidate depending how Descalso develops.
The Cards will probably make Albert an offer like $200MM over 8 years. Then negotiate it up to a final deal of $240MM/8, $30MM/yr. This would be double Holliday and keep Albert here. Lets get it done, Mo!
Jumbo, if your 8/240 would start now replacing the last two years of the existing contract, then you are actually buying 6 additional years for $208M additional dollars. That is about $35M per year for those extra years you are buying. That’s insane. If you are talking about adding the 8 new years onto the end of the existing contract, then you are talking about paying him $30M a year until he’s 40. Also insane IMO.
Since AP is locked up for two years, he will be age 30 and 31, what he has to sell is a couple prime years and the declining part of his career. 30M per year is ok for the best player in baseball. Will he be the best player at ages 32, 33? Maybe so, it wouldn’t surprise me. Will he be the best at 34? at 35? at 36, 37? Not likely. How good Albert is during the declining part of his career depends on how his health holds up, but he is not at all likely to be the best in the game all throughout that time. And his extended power outage at the end of last year gave us a glimpse of what health issues could mean. A .350 singles hitter is a fine thing but not worth $30M.
264 plate appearances is a decent sample. That is how many Jimmy had as a Cub against righties in 2008, with an OPS of .998. Even if he did 10% worse that would still be a pretty good bat off the bench, for the minimum.
“Points of interest………… I’m sure Ludwick takes 2/9.5…………..BD values flexibility above 2 million.”
My point, as reinforced by you CC, I think…………is that Ludwick takes 2yrs. The point is, it wasn’t offered…………..that’s the flexibility enjoyed by BD……………………………point here is that if Ludwick now gets 100+ rbi’s batting in the 5th spot in this lineup (possible) BD pays him 7 million in 2011 even if he hits 260…………….
The only reason that Shu isn’t signed…………besides the obvious delaying tactics by Mo……… is that they are likely working on a 2yr deal, and trying to avoid the same conundrum by overpaying a platoon player that hits 300 against right handers…………
“. . . a platoon player that hits 300 against right handers. . . ”
That’s a substantial understatement Westy. Schu is a platoon player who hit .322 against RHP in ’09, and .340 in ’08.
I havn’t checked, but I would guess that vs righties Schu’s BA and OBP are second on the team to Albert’s each of the last two years.
As point of reference, Albert’s BA was .327 in ’09 and .357 in ’08.
BB………if he had to face the lefties……….and the tough lefties is what I’m getting at, the collateral damage to his ass and its distant relation, his confidence and self esteem, he hits 270 at best.
Consider this, without protection (Tony), if Lopez is signed, he pushes Shoemaker out by June.
That could very well be having an effect on the negotiations.
One added point……….. the opposition attacked the Cards with every lefty they could muster all year long. They pounded Shu out of the lineup, killed Rasmus and Ankiel………..but set Albert into a nice rhythm, probably the source of his red hot first half……..When they started pitching to him, many things changed. Its a wonder Luddy didn’t hit 400 with 200 rbi’s. Anyway, Holiday now will get Shu a chance to play a little more.
Westie, you like to ask others to read between the lines and you cant even read when it is all but spelled out for you. Your biases are so great you become blind. When I say he would leave 4 million on the table that is the 5.5 he’ll make this year and the 8 he’s likely to make next year!
Blingboy wrote, “264 plate appearances is a decent sample. That is how many Jimmy had as a Cub against righties in 2008, with an OPS of .998. Even if he did 10% worse that would still be a pretty good bat off the bench, for the minimum.”
Sure, but don’t forget about his combined .498 OPS in 103 PAs with the Pads in ’08. Also don’t forget about his .728 OPS in 411 PAs with St. Louis. Pass.
Yeah, I know Nut, sometimes I just can’t help it.
Your funny CC………….. he hasn’t got the 5 yet. He will never get 8………… or 7 in 2011……..If he plays well enough to get 10…………he will defiantly be traded. No one is sure what BD brings. If the Cardinals struggle, Ludwick will be the first to go………there isn’t anyone else.
Just signed for 5.45 so how can you say he hasn’t got the 5? I don’t disagree that Ludwick is a trade candidate but how can we trade him when according to you he isn’t even worth his contract — BD is going to sign him in arbitation and then eat part of his contract? ye ah, right. (of course the reality – for those of us in the real world – is that Ludwick is worth his salary and we won’t have to eat anything!)
Plus Edmonds has been out of the game for a year and he is 39 years old, I’m a big fan of his and he might just flop which would hurt his borderline HOF chances. I still think he would be better for the team as a coach but what the heck, maybe a NRI for him would be ok and he catches lightning in a bottle and outplays Jay and Craig in the spring.
I just don’t see him as an everyday player anymore.
Albert is a bit older than his supposed date of birth. He is a lot older than Holliday.m
But its DeWitt’s money and he gets decide who to shovel the money to. Give it to Pujols, because he will give some of the moola to worthy charties and civic endeavors, sayeth Jumbo.
Piniero got 2/16 from the Angels. I’m figuring DD didn’t want him back for some reason. Unless it was just cast in stone from the start that the spot in the rotation would be a one year deal no matter what.
Jumbo, I don’t get your riddle. You should know you can’t out-WC WC!
Albert is officially stated to be a day younger than Holliday.
Instead, Albert is a bit older than his supposed date of birth.
Therefore, Albert is a bit older minus one day than Holliday.
So, how does one conclude that Albert is a lot older than Holliday?
One possibility is that Holliday is a lot younger than his supposed date of birth.
The other is that post made no sense.
Twins gave NRI to Mike Maroth. . . . . . not kidding, must have spent the rev sharing check on the new open air stadium. Maybe they don’t want any of their starters pitching the home opener when its about 27 degrees.
The Cards had a middle infield prospect named Jose Martinez, what ever happened to him?
Chances are pretty good that Maroth will be in Rochester and may never see Target Field.
Jose Martinez lost all of last year due some serious family problems in Venezuela then shoulder surgery. He went unclaimed in the Rule 5 draft and may be back in the spring. Would surely return to Springfield.
First Maroth, now this:
“The Rays signed Havlicek, a 16-year-old Czech lefty, and will start him on his pro career in the Australian Summer League this season.”
Czech lefty? . . . Australian Summer League? . . . .
Think I’ll just call it a day.
bling, Martinez missed all of last year due to personal issues (murder in the family if I recall). Luhnow has said he expects him back and is targeted for Memphis (which seems a little aggressive to me after a year off).
In the past, Martinez always played winter ball in VZ. He didn’t this year, which to me only decreases his odds of being ready to step up one level.
Descalso should be nervous then. The chart of past years All-Prospect teams in TCN article shows that Martinez was seen as the top 2nd base prospect before he missed last year. Unless Decalso is a contender for the ML roster.
To be honest, in past years, there wasn’t much of any second base competition in the top prospect list. I am just posting a position view by year on the main site.
Riddle explanation: ages among baseball players are a bit like dog years. If one guy is a little older than another, he is then a lot older than the younger man. (Yogi might agree.)
Jumbo, I’m glad you were not hinting at one of those rubber birth certificates I’ve heard about.
Oh, I think was.
that would be “he was”
Now Preston Wilson wants an NRI to make a comeback.
“Colby is the center fielder. My job would be to help him and replace him when he needed help,” Edmonds said. “I wouldn’t get in Colby’s way.”
Edmonds doing some damage control i guess. How is this consitent with 400 PA’s?
So do the Royals sign guys like Brad Thompson and Rick Ankiel in hopes of pulling in some vague fan interest from the region or is it simply a matter of aiming low?
I think the Royals are looking at guys who have under achieved and are cheap hoping they might live up to their potential.
The Royals might have some hitting solutions and end up with a Josh Hamilton to the Rangers type of story. It’s a possibility. Tony was a big help to Rick……..before he became a big hindrance. Tony has said as much publicly.
Jimmy was on TV and seems to be furiously backpeddling. He’s saying getting to the 400 HR mark is not so important, he just wants to prove he can play, etc. Seems like maybe the ‘interest’ from other teams didn’t pan out, so he’s trying to re-position himself in a way that fits with the Cardinal’s needs.