Just as when Mark McGwire spoke out, St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa is catching considerable heat for what he said and did not say.
Wednesday, day three of the Mark McGwire re-entry program as architected by the crisis-management firm of former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer, apparently called for a shift in focus to the all-new Big Mac. The Cardinals hitting coach is shown swinging the bat and happily teaching his hitting students in California, relieved by his confession and ready to move forward.
It was inevitable that change would not go completely smoothly. Jose Canseco, self-proclaimed whistle-blower of the steroid era, did his best to ensure that, trying to keep the focus on the past, instead of the future.
While the primary subject of Canseco’s claims, widespread use of illegal drugs in baseball, was again reinforced, McGwire’s former Bash Brother teammate still has a long history of contradicting himself, embellishing details and later wishing he had handled himself differently.
With that backdrop, the “he-said, she-said” debate over whether or not Canseco injected McGwire, where, when and how often is most incredulous. What we have here is a dispute between two admitted long-time drug users, both of whom have been proven to foster a long-term habit of avoiding or at least severely bending the truth.
The phrase, “the first liar doesn’t stand a chance” was coined for situations precisely as this. If you hooked these two up to a polygraph, as Canseco has challenged, there would probably be an explosion the likes of which hasn’t been seen since Godzilla and Ghidorah destroyed Tokyo.
Canseco’s counterattacks included a blast fired at his former manager and the current skipper of the St. Louis Cardinals, Tony La Russa. In an ESPN Radio appearance, Canseco vehemently disputed La Russa’s claim that the manager was unaware of McGwire’s use of steroids until this Monday.
Said Canseco: “That’s a blatant lie. There are some things here that are so ridiculous, and so disrespectful for the public and the media to believe.”
It is a sad state of affairs indeed when Canseco is left to define what is ridiculous and disrespectful.
Putting the foolishness aside, I have been among the many troubled by the apparent rigidity of the manager’s remarks. Just as in McGwire’s damning unwillingness to acknowledge the performance-enhancing nature of performance-enhancing drugs, La Russa’s insistence that he was unaware of McGwire’s use all these years is a credibility-crusher.
As the result of his remarks, La Russa has been hammered in many corners of the press, almost as much as McGwire himself, it seems.
La Russa’s assertion that he did not know of McGwire’s past use may have been akin to Bill Clinton swearing he didn’t inhale. A member of the legal profession like the former President, La Russa never said he did not have past suspicions. He only said he did not KNOW until Monday.
Of course, he didn’t know. Without positive drug tests, no one knew for absolute certain until McGwire himself said so. Yet, La Russa left himself wide open by avoiding the obvious.
It is not as if La Russa didn’t have past suspicions about steroids use on his own team, as did current Cardinals first base coach and former A’s strength and conditioning coach Dave McKay. At the time, during the original “don’t ask, don’t tell” era, there were no processes to deal with the issue, so everyone apparently just kept quiet.
Directly from the Mitchell Report:
“…La Russa and McKay acknowledged that they had suspected Canseco of using steroids when he was playing with Oakland. McKay said: ‘It just got to the point where you knew he [used them].’ Neither La Russa nor McKay shared their concerns with the Oakland front office, however. According to La Russa, ‘I thought, what’s the use? So I didn’t say anything.’”
In a Wednesday St. Louis Post-Dispatch article, Joe Strauss recounted the following discussion with La Russa this week:
“La Russa referred to McGwire’s initial experimentation with steroids in 1989-90 as ‘a little flavor here and there. That is not right, either. But he was not a big abuser at that point,’ La Russa said.”
If the manager didn’t know about McGwire’s use back then, during the final years of when Canseco and Big Mac were Oakland teammates, the only logical assumption one can make is that his hitting coach must have shared those details of his steroid use for the first time when he spoke with La Russa on Monday.
As one might expect, the manager is defending his new hitting coach to the nth degree, including McGwire’s controversial, logic-defying stance that his long-term steroid use was solely for health reasons.
”He admitted his performance was enhanced when he took steroids because it kept him healthy,” La Russa said Tuesday. ”But he also worked on his stroke, put better spin on the ball, learned the game between pitcher and hitter and became more dangerous as a result. With that stroke, good things happened.”
As MLB executives, Cardinals chairman Bill DeWitt Jr. and general manager John Mozeliak together worked the details of McGwire’s re-entry plan with Fleischer and company leading up to Monday’s blitz, La Russa was kept on the outside.
On one hand, I understand that, as the job of any team’s field manager is in the dugout, not in helping to define a very ticklish public relations rollout. On the other, this isn’t any manager, nor is La Russa detached from the story personally. There seemed both benefit and risk avoidance reasons for including La Russa in the process.
La Russa had spent the last five years on a seemingly ever-shrinking island, angrily defending McGwire against any and all attackers while the former player himself remained far underground. A major pillar of that defense was La Russa believing McGwire when the slugger assured his manager he did not use steroids.
In a January 18, 2009 New York Times interview that did not receive enough attention at the time, La Russa said the very thing he needed to this week, but did not.
La Russa acknowledged that Canseco (and therefore by implication, his teammates, as well) may have been using drugs behind his back and those of his staff. La Russa remained firm that McKay ran a “100 percent straight” program in Oakland, but the manager explained that he and his coaches couldn’t be everywhere.
“Now, as José (Canseco) said, when you go to the toilet or you leave the ballpark, Dave didn’t control that,” La Russa told the Times.
In his defense of McKay, La Russa only reinforced the obvious – coaches can’t be with their players all the time. As such, especially when there was no drug testing, they could not be sure what the players were taking or not taking. Yet for reasons only he knows, La Russa did not say that again this week in McGwire’s context when he easily could and should have.
One might wonder if in his staunch desire to defend his own, La Russa purposely drew more than his share of the heat in an attempt to take some focus away from McGwire. If so, the maneuver seemed instead to fan the flames that lap at both of them.
Just as if McGwire had simply said something realistic like, “I have no way of ever knowing how the drugs I took affected my performance and results.”, had La Russa repeated his earlier comments, as common-sense as they seem, a lot less dirt would have been thrown around this week.
Instead, the trenches around that lonely island are seemingly being dug even deeper – when they didn’t necessarily have to be.
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Well, they got over the large hump. Expecting them to admit that they expected that steroid use was going on and that it was partially responsible for their success, respectively, is probably hoping for too much. Everyone is going to put spin on their own actions when others start attacking them, even if it sounds disingenuous.
The many fans who imagine them selfs living vicariously within the competitive framework of baseball, are easily seduced into positions and attitudes without foundations.. Jack Clark might have lost money because he couldn’t compete with steroid enhanced players. He can be pissed.
Your articles appears to be stirring the pot a little Brian. Its kind of an unusual position for you I feel. To a degree, this will sell tickets……make money……bring the team closer together. This could go south if Fan emotions become self righteous and then indignant about their loss of self proclaimed innocence.
I will be interested to hear your comments next week at this time, after Winter fest.
WC, I wouldn’t characterize the articles as stirring the pot myself, but one would take from Brian’s comments that he feels like Mark is real close to where Jack thinks he is. Brian seems to feel that Mark really hurt the game by using steroids but doesn’t feel the need to start jumping up and down and calling Mark a sissy, and yell out a few, Yo mama’s and the like. I have no problem, like I stated earlier, with people taking a strong position either way but for someone who has played the game to make such pointed comments seems a bit extreme.
WC,
You know as well as me that when the team starts playing games and winning, then nobody will gives two squirts about what Mark McGwire did 10 years ago.
We need to get there though RC………….. I’m down to one squirt anyway………. I could care less about any of this stuff…………………they made rules…..now they enforce them……..play ball. If Tony didn’t know….he should have. You could speculate that he made his reputation coaching steroid teams.
And he’s a vegetarian.
RC, I don’t think you have read me correctly at all. In my first article on the subject, I said it seemed to me there were three possible motives for McGwire to come forward. One was to relieve his guilt. Two was to enable him to be the Cardinals hitting coach. Three was to help his Hall of Fame candidacy. Only he can answer if he is happy about #1, but I said he did enough to satisfy me as far as being the hitting coach is concerned.
That is very different from Clark saying McGwire should be banned from the game. Though Clark apparently isn’t, I am well aware of the rules and as such know there would be no grounds for a ban. It is just emotion talking.
Most of the writers seem tangled up with #3 even though McGwire’s Hall chances weren’t good in the first place. McGwire’s disbelief that his results were affected by drug use seem to have killed what chance he had. Since he said that wasn’t his reason for returning, I don’t get all the fuss. He hasn’t gotten in yet and probably won’t going forward, at least until sometime far in the future when those years across MLB can be viewed from more of a historical perspective.
I question whether all the message management and non-management is helping 1, 2 or 3, and bristle whenever I sense manipulation, but the first few days are probably the toughest. McGwire has been a highly-charged topic for some years and it appears he will continue to be. We may never know if all this helps or hurts the 2010 team, but there is clearly both upside benefit and downside risk. Ownership knew that and made their decision.
Was Ghidorah the giant flying turtle or the three headed dragon?
Ari owes somebody a refund. He really crisis managed the hell out of this one.
I’m serious about trying to get both signitures on one ball. That would be some kind of bling IMHO.
Three-headed dragon.
In all likelihood, you have just seen the parameters for the hall being defined by this orchestrated manuver……….. very possibly the purpose, of Selig and the conservatives……….. they want this behind them….. Bonds is out now…A-Rod will have to earn it by his production over an extended period of “tested” time. What part of the press (east coast) reaction wasn’t completely predictable?
Point now is…………….will Tony join them if he doesn’t watch it..
This whole thing provides some pretty good entertainment for the middle of winter. Tony’s increasing difficulties and Jack Clark add yet two more sub-plots.
Westy, I think you give Selig too much credit, and he doesn’t care about the HOF, its not a money maker.
Possible BB………….but I believe you have just seen MM substituted for Rodger C. as a bookend to Barry Bonds to create the fastidiously prepared racial balance that is so highly valued. Rodger had other serious baggage. He would never have stood up with MM’s complex motivations for coping to using. Selig is much more influential than you think…..he just donated a million of the Yankee luxury tax to Haiti.
I agree with Bling that this is good offseason entertainment, because there are complexities to the issue.
DeWitt was a supporter of President Bush. No surprise he would call on Fleisher to help be a P.R. coach. If there was ever an topic that needed a PR plan of attack, its bringing back Mark.
Jack Clark says McGwire is a sissy. Snore. Brian Jordan seemed glad McGwire is back in the game, nice of him.
It was dopey for McGwire to have sounded like he was claiming his stats were not helped a bit by steroids, when he justified using steroids to restore his health so he could play more. Yes, he should have levelled with people, man-upped, and said his career stats were helped somewhat.
When I first saw Canseco on tv early in his career, I was surprised. He did not look like a baseball player, he looked like a football player. He was fast, compact, powerful. I did not know anything about steroids, so was surprised baseball players could be made like that. So if I was surprised, I have to figure TLR and Dave McKay suspected Canseco had done something unusual to get a bod like that. McGwire would be less obvious as a steroid beneficiary, given a tall string bean frame.
I think Tony’s point is that players have rights and do things on their own, without his authorization, so he is not responsible for what they do. If this is his point, I agree with it. A manager’s job is to make up the lineup card. Its not to be responsible for every decision made by players. They are grown men and solely responsible for their individual conduct.
Canseco and McGwire make interesting contrasts. After he left the game, Canseco decided to make some money from ratting out other ballplayers who used medicines to heal and build muscles. McGwire has refrained from casting aspersions on other people for his own gain, taking a higher road. When Congresspeople decided to campaign against steroids, McGwire refused to lie or to take an easy way out, allowing himself to be beaten up by sports pundits. Now he wants to come back to the game to teach and work with others. TLR and others are willing to standup for McGwire, because they respect him. Nobody is going to try to help Canseco get a coaching job.
Brian,
Don’t misunderstand, As a journalist it would seem appropriate to provide the reader a view from all sides, which I believe you have done. And everyone knows how hard it is to interpret feelings by reading an internet post , even though everyone believes they can do it.
That being said, it just seems by some of your comments that you view Mark a little more harshly than maybe I do. My interpretation of your posts may be way off, and probably are, but that would be my best guess as to your feelings in regards to the topic of Mark McGwire and steroids.
I believe you are correct in your assertion the approach Mark’s PR team took may not have been the best approach in order for people to forgive Mark. But my guess is that Mark was not willing to go to the extent of saying everything he accomplished in the game of baseball was due to his steroids use. For all we know Ari told Mark the possible ramifications of Mark not giving the steroids all the credit for his numbers. Mark is definately an intelligent person and having heard the pro’s and con’s Mark obviously decided that he wasn’t willing to give the steroids the ultimate credit for his career, no matter what people were going to say. But we are all gonna have differing feelings in regards to steroid usage in baseball and our opinions are gonna be all over the map.
JS, are you honestly suggesting there was not a noticable change in McGwire’s physique after he took “medicines”?
You seem to have missed my point about Tony’s points. He made them in the past about Canseco, not about McGwire here and now.
Good analysis Jumbo.
Nice article By the commish. Here is a comment by Andy Van Slyke.
As to whether Bonds would ever pull a McGwire, Van Slyke said, “If he does come forward, I hope he’ll be truthful. One thing about Barry. He’s not afraid to speak the truth. For the last four years (since his appearance before a congressional committee), McGwire could have said something.”
Did Andy just say Bonds is not afraid to speak the truth? Andy in this statement seems to make McGwire out to be worse than Barry Bonds. Hey Andy, Bonds could have said something after the BALCO episode as well. You see how people just tend to get dumber and dumber, and Andy just hopped over into the whole mess.
Bonds is a different situation entirely. He remains under grand jury investigation and would likely be convicted of perjury and jailed if he contradicts his past testimony. Assuming he does not want to work in baseball and is not driven by a desire to clear his chest, he is not yet Hall of Fame eligible so would not yet have any of those motivations to speak. It will be interesting to see how much greater percentage of votes he receives than Mac. Many have the view that Bonds may have been Hall-worthy before he used. Another interesting debate for a couple of years ahead.
Jeff Gordon’s article in todays Post talks about use of drugs to enhance performance going back decades. From MacLean and Gibson gobbling pills to stay on the mound during the ’68 WS, to guys now getting themselves diagnosed with ADHD so they can take concentration enhancing drugs. It goes back much farther. The History channel had a piece on the history of cocaine. It was said in the early 1900′s it was a very common and popular stimulant in some circles and was used by baseball players on the field.
Maybe Jack Clark did it on pine nuts and spring water, but the point is the players have always been willing to use whatever was there to stay on the field and get an advantage. If you want to start banning people for it, like Gordon says, who would be left.
I agree with what I think was RC’s position, the only distinction worth making is whether or not somebody broke the rules. The written down rules. If they didn’t then they are not cheaters.
I do not believe that Maris cheated to achieve his absurdly unnatural power spike in ’61. But I also do not belive he did it without the aid of pharmacology of some sort. I feel the same way about Aaron and even Ruth probably. How else can a body do at 38 what it could do at 25? So I believe McGwire should be held to the same standard players have always been held to, did he break the written rules or did he not.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/jeffgordon/story/D867F72BE589F1CC862576AB00813147?OpenDocument
Here and elsewhere, I have received a few comments about my lying words in the initial post. Some additional background on my thinking.
Canseco has lied, but also had a substance of truth. His gain was apparently financial.
McGwire also lied. His gain was apparently to protect his reputation. First he lied to La Russa, who passed that on to all of us. For years, Tony cited his belief in Mark’s word that he did not use. I have heard that defense in person and it was delivered with gusto.
McGwire also lied to the public. He just did not do so under oath. When Canseco’s book first came out, McGwire made the following written statement to CBS 60 Minutes. It was in February 2005, one month before the Congressional hearing.
Lots of guys, like Van Slyke now, are jumping into the fray. I’m surprised Ricky Horton hasn’t chimed in. Or maybe he did and no one thought it worth reporting. I’ve been a fan of Shannon my whole life, and he’s learned a lot of lessons about opening his big mouth. He probably won’t say much. Contrast that with years back. I can remember listening to a broadcast and the then new guy Joe Buck used the word pandemoneum, Shannon says ‘You know the defenition of pandemoneum?, Joe: What? Shannon: A nickel rolling down the street in Mexico City. Joe: (very long awkward silence) (go to commercial)
The great players of the past should not get into any sort of verbal warfare where they find themselves speaking poorly of any player, current or former. This will without a doubt alienate some fans from being fans of Jack Clark and Andy Van Slyke. The best method of dealing with this type of stuff is to give a poliically correct “its unfortunate” comment or two and go about your business.
The childish comments of Clark are above and beyond anyones reasonable thought process. And Van Slyke just sounded stupid with the Bonds will tell it like it is BS. You know, I’m not gonna rip Bonds, because he is a truth teller, but Mark McGwire is a liar that should be banished to Pluto. Just plain silly.
Those two believed Mark didn’t carry himself like a ML baseball player should have and they have decided to be the judge and jury or what good character is. So be it. Well I don’t believe they acted like ML baseball players should have by making these ridiculous comments. I would choose to think that they are both poor excuses for people as well and I wouldn’t speak or shake either one of their hands either. And I’m sure they will both care about my thoughts about as much as Mark will about theirs
Baseball players are another slice of the population and just like any group, there are going to be disagreements over an issue as divisive as this one. It is not realistic to expect everyone will fly in formation, even past members of the fraternity. All the “initial reaction” stories will probably lose interest in another day or two, anyway. One thing is for sure. Everyone has an opinion.
In other words Brian, You have mentally challenged people(politically correct comment) in all groups of the population. I do agree.
Fly in formation? No. But we have a couple who have chosen to fly further north into an oncoming winter blizzard.
I disagree with RC about not wanting to shake Jack’s hand because of the statements he’s made. It’s like saying John Wayne is no good because he once shot a guy in the back in the movies.
If I remember right, Jack was always thought of as not exactly a rocket scientist. But I always try to catch his post game commentary show on the telecasts, just because I enjoy it. Kind of an ordinary guy talking about the game thing, rather than an analyst spewing pap. Don’t care if he’s not an expert. We’re up to our ears in experts. Same reason I like Bernie’s radio show.
It’s like a weird stage play where all the unemployed actors standing around in the wings can, if they want, grab the script and write themselves in a part. Then they walk on stage in the middle of the action and join the show.
I don’t really fault Jack for writing himself in. How long since he’s gotten any press. Like somebody said here on the blog, hardly anybody outside of St. Louis knows who Jack Clark is. I would guess a few more know now.
Bling, you are a long time cardinal fan so I would expect you to be a kinder and gentler fan and therefore would love you some Jack Clark. But comparing him to John Wayne is just WRONG!!! Maybe a Mike Tyson biting off an ear comparison would be more fitting. That seems more like what Jack is doing in this case
Bling wrote, “Like somebody said here on the blog, hardly anybody outside of St. Louis knows who Jack Clark is. I would guess a few more know now.”
And the large majority outside of St. Louis will say who is this Clark guy? and they will continue by ripping him about how he wasn’t that good and that he is jealous of Big Mac and it goes on and on. They have been killing Clark on a baseball board here in the great state of Alabama. I mean killing him. And not one person knows who he is
It is funny stuff. And Van Slyke has been tore up as well. It couldn’t happen to a nicer group of guys IMO.
1987 was the first year I had a set of season tickets all to myself, not split up with other guys. I’m pretty sure I didn’t miss a single game that year. Our third son was born a couple days before opening day and I can remember how relieved I was. I brought our oldest son, then 5, to countless games, and Jack was his hero. He had almost 30 HR’s by the break that year before he got hurt, and quite a few of them landed right out there in left where we were. Nobody would have said Clark shouldn’t be compared to Wayne then, when it mattered. That’s why I’d shake his hand RC.
Bling,
Awesome story. Like I said, I have no problem with your loving you some Jack Clark. I think its cool and he would especially have a deeper place in my heart had he been a favorite of one of my kids. Many a cardinal fan probably feels as you do.
That being said, I would be sitting here to day feeling sorry for Jack that he would feel the need to lower himself to the level of saying what he said. I just don’t like my hero’s belittling themselves and acting like we mortals act. They don’t seem to look as big after something such as this. But I understand your affection for Jack.
My advice to Colby just this morning on his talking points as he was about to Caravan his way across Illinois was to stay away from talking about Jack at all costs and most definately don’t mention Jack in any kind of positive manor because TLR will drop the hammer on this deal before all is said and done. If one is forced to speak on a topic Jack must be thrown under the bus as excess baggage or you will go down on the sinking ship known as the USS JACK CLARK.
manner I mean, not manor.
In all likelihood……………the first thing that Selig did with the guarded half of the survey list from 2003………..was make it accessible to the powers who initiated this pogrom in the first place. They planned their attack…………….you all seem to forget that the NSA surveillance program with its amazing “hear all, read all” was now operational. It could sift through everything and find something. But, if you had a phone number, or and e-mail address, you could hear everything.
They new about Balco, they knew Clemens and everyone else who was using. The whole idea of “discovering” a computer in SD that allowed them access to only ten names was a fabrication that has already broke down in court. It did because it was so preposterous. With out the W machine, Selig must have felt this was a fastball to have a scapegoat walk out of the bushes.
When MM wanted to come back, bingo, a precedent for steroids denial to the hall of fame. Yeah, they had Ari illuminate the path..Yeah, MM will coach………as a reformed junkie. When this settles down, that pretty much ends the political part of this program……..Selig will be gone soon, as is the Bush Justice department who pushed it. Did it work……. you decide.
Oddly enough………….I wonder who had the security accesses to join Dick C in his “bunker”. That was not ceremonial….that was the “Hog trough”.
Sounds like good fatherly advise RC. Colby strikes me as a man of few words, at least publicly. Hopefully he’ll do as you say not as you do on that.
Man, I wish there was something else to talk about. Except for Saturday, I’ve given away my WWU tickets to my second and third sons. I invited my daughter but she said “I’d rather be covered with bees”. My oldest, who I mentioned above, will be going with me saturday. He’s bought into the idea of getting Jack and Mac to sign the same ball.
Like I said, Ari owes somebody a refund. . . unless this three ring circus was the goal. . . .hmmmm.
Charlie Zink? Jose Contreras? Derrick Turnbow? Can Duncan’s confidence in the young arms produced by Luhnow’s team be that low? Wow. We just got rid of guys like that, better than that. Kip Wells needs a job.
No Bling, Colby is not like me, thank goodness. 3 of the 4 of my boys are quiet like their mother. My 3rd(Cyle), unfortunately runs his mouth just like me, but he is not the A hole I am. Good kid just very opinionated. Colby is one of those that listens to everything thats going on around him and rarely talks, but hears everything. But there is no doubt he abhors being interviewed.
I’ve told my kids like I tell my baseball teams, If anyone is going to make a fool out of themselves it is going to be me. I want everyone to think you guys are good as gold
I literally could care less what people think of me, and my wife would argue that I love playing the villain.
Broadcast team ‘color guys’ and post game analysts will have even more stats and figures to spew this season due to that Sportsvision Field FX system that is set to be up and running. I’m not sure if it will be set up in all the stadiums this year, but at least in some. As I understand it, camera’s mounted up high at various angles use recognition software to ‘see’ the ball and the players. It will measure ball speed and direction, fielder reaction time, route taken to intersect the ball, time it takes to get rid of the ball, etc, etc. As data is collected, objective defensive stats and comparisons will be possible. I have no idea what to think about it. I hate being bombarded with stats while I’m trying to watch a game.
bb, I suggest sticking to radio. Something tells me Shannon won’t be an early adopter.
I was thinking the same thing Brian. They need to get rid of that stupid delay between radio and TV. I hate hearing what happens a couple seconds before seeing it.
Was also thinking about Jack and Rick breaking down those numbers for us.
Do you think Jeter has seen his last gold glove?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/02/07/alex-rodriguez-steroids/
Notice the time line. Last leak just before Bush leaves office…………after Yanks spend 380 million on players…………………
Leaks are highly illegal……………….post Bush looks like this.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2009/07/30/2009-07-30_players_union_in_uproar.html
Until Tony good heartedly brings the gift that seals the deal. Notice how long it took for the Yanks to resolve A-Rods position……3 days……..and then surgery for a cool down period. A-Rods contract would have brought the Union and Boras into court in a no holds barred legal tussle………without Bush protection…if the Yanks decided to try and void his contract.
MM was forced to spill it………………by who……………….so it wasn’t a distraction….right.
Just in case…for the slow…………………it could serve no purpose to raid SD testing facility with out the Commissioners list. All they would say is that they found information on a computer that allowed them to decode the identities. And thats where it stand. Nobody hurt, no one prosecuted……..only Barry and now MM will wear the scarlet letter………..for HoF purposes. The other 90 plus PED boys breath a sigh of relief.
I think that will not survive the final edit Westy. This isn’t a docu-drama you know, just rolicking entertainment to occupy the huddled masses. All the money to be made out of the whole steroid thing has already been made which mean the suits don’t care about all this stuff going on now. Notice what the owners are busy talking about, international draft and the first year player draft. Don’t let the side show distract you from the main event.
The Marlins got the union and the owners off their back for a measly $3.75M. That’s what they will pay Johnson in 2010. If he continues to be an ace, they will have him locked up for three more years for about $35M and the ability to trade him at will, which they will most likely do if the new basic agreement isn’t to their liking. Their new staduim will be built by then. Loria can work the system.
This little piece in the NY Times struck me as pointing out the usefulness of scandal, drama and personalities with star quality to the popularity of a sport among the general population, and the money that goes with it. The story contrasts the popularity of figure skating in the U. S. in the 90′s with the obscurity now.
Then:
“in 1994, the sport had more money and personality than sequins. Its television ratings outdrew everything but the National Football League”
Now:
“My cellphone has more buzz than the United States figure skating championships. What this sport needs is another knee-whacking. ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/sports/olympics/15longman.html?ref=sports
Interesting look at steroids and baseball with an emphasis on identifying if steroids is the cause of increased HR’s.
http://steroids-and-baseball.com/
TLR’s reaction to the Clark comments were very professional: link.
If using steroids could have increased Jack Clark’s yearly home run totals from the upper 20′s to the lower 40′s, I’m pretty sure that he would have ended up a household name.
Brian Walton made a post up this thread that McGwire lied in denying steroid use. Yes, this does seem the case. When put under oath and put in more legal jeopardy, then McGwire backed off on the p.r. lie and offered unsastisfactory refusals to talk about the past, tatatmount to confessing to steroid use back in 2005.
Andy van Slyke is probably trying to say that Barry Bonds will in general have a tendency not to sugar-coat answers to the public, one reason he may be unpopular. But since Barry is in legal jeopardy, as a practical reality, he cannot say anything right now, despite Andy’s hopefulness.
McGwire’s admission may help Barry and be intended to help free Barry from his oppression! As it comes out that McGwire, Clemens, and others helped themselves with muscle medicines, why should Barry be singled out for prosecution? Because he hit the most homeruns? Because he wanted to outMcGwire McGwire? Because Barry is not all politically correct and cuddly?
Nobody is helped by McGwire coming out more than Bonds. TLR once said he would like to sign Bonds, but Mo and DeWitt shot that down. Albert has expressed respect for Bonds, IIRC.
Walton also asked up this thread if I had “honestly” noticed a difference in McGwire’s physique after he took what Jumbo calls muscle “medicines”? (I call them medicines to counter the farcical claim they are “bad” for athletes at low doses and they must be banned to save the health of athletes, which I regard as sports pundit hot air.)
I look at few baseball games and do not closely study physiques, though I did say that Canseco’s surprised me, when I first saw him, early in his ML career. He seemed built when he got to the majors, not later.
As regards McGwire’s body change, a lot of men thicken. I once had a 29 inch waist. Its not uplifting that it has become as large as my Dad’s, in his 50s. So it would not surprise me if McGwire filled out and put on some weight by his late 20s, early 30s.
Another thing about McGwire was he must have been pumping iron and taking some muscle medicines by 1989. So his cultivation of muscle strength must have taken years and not been abrupt. Its my impression that Barry Bonds more abruptly escalated his HR capabilities.
McGwire and Bonds were great hitters and had great experience. Gaining muscle strength through the combination of weights and muscle medicines was empowering, because they had the swings and knowledge to take advantage of their strength addition. This turned them into Supermen.
My last post also is a defense of TLR. TLR is not a weight lifter. Tony sees McGwire grunting and lifting weights for years, working doggone hard. Its plausible that Tony could think McGwire is better himself via hardwork.
Even Roger Clemens worked out like a fiend, it has been reported. Its not like these guys get strong by just taking a few pills. They have to pump iron and then take muscle medicines to heal the muscles and stimulate their renewal and growth. Its all about exercise.
Presumably a guy could work out a lot, lift a lot of weights, gain strength, and NOT take steroids. This is a key point. The question becomes: when does McGwire gain so much strength that steroid use can be reliably inferred, over and beyond the weight-lifting? Since MM pumped iron for a long time, it may not be easy to infer steroid use. In contrast, with Canseco, he had a body different from most baseball players, when he arrived in the majors. Even if he did not use steroids, people would have to wonder, how does a guy get to be so buff?
Brian Walton does not want to go easy on TLR, so he may wonder what TLR knew and when did he know it. Brian writes about few of TLR’s coaches being selected as managers. Or suspects hiring McGwire as a hitting coach is for the ulterior motive of sneaking him into the HoF. Or wonders why TLR defends McGwire, but not Canseco, who at least told some partial truths (about others, for Canseco’s personal gain and their harm)?
I would suspect that “inside the clubhouse” of the fraternity of baseball players, it is believed many athletes have worked to improve their fitness and strength. After all, they are athletes and in the professional business of doing this. Steroids may be an imaginary horror for sports pundits and for politicians seeking publicity. But inside the clubhouse, to players and executives alike, they have been just a normal part of life. Players used to take greenies, wrote Bouton, later they have injected steroids and lifted weights, like the presiding Governor of California. Its only in keeping with the sanity of the entire issue that Barry Bonds is proscecuted within California, while the governor gets a free pass.
IIRC, Jack Clark used to admit when a Cards player that he did nothing in the off-season to work out and build his bod. Reporters used to worry that he would go to seed and not maintain his hitting prowess into his late 30s.
Clark was a feared and serious hitter, in his day. It must have been mostly natural gifts, if it is true that he did not exercise much. This also helps explain why his production fell off pretty quickly by his mid-30s, IIRC. He did not pump iron and exercise hard.
Dave Kingman and Mark McGwire have similar body types. Tall right swinging first basemen. Kingman hit a ton of HRs, though also was a whiff king. He probably did not lift weights and take muscle medicines.
McGwire may think his tight swing helped make him a much better hitter than Kingman. Maybe so, but it may be more complicated than just swing efficiency. McGwire’s muscle strength may have enabled his great swing as much as the great swing enabled the great results. The physical contribution of muscles cannot be entirely divorced from the swing that they guide and enable.
Dusty Baker used to defend Barry Bonds against steroids by saying Bonds had phenomeonal pitch recognition and coordination, and that steroids could not improve your eyesight and account for this. I dont think this is quite right. The muscles enable the player to respond more rapidly to what his eyes see. Therefore, a stronger guy may seem to have better vision and earlier pitch recognition, but this is because his muscular reactions are faster, not because his eyesight has improved. In this way, steroids may make a player look smarter or have better eyesight, but its only stronger muscles enabling a quicker response or more perfect swing. Its all about strength.
Agreed on the last point, Jumbo, for sure. If it were all up to pitch recognition, many more people could excel as batters. Certainly strength is required for reflexes and not simply sheer power.
So lets see, MM lied in early 2005 when denying any use of PEDs that he was not supposed to take, back before MLB instituted a PED screening program.
Lots of guys used PEDs, including that we know of, McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Conseco, Bonds, Clemens, Pettite, A-Rod, Juan Gonzalez, Palmeiro, Tejada, Giambi, Manny Ramirez, Troy Glaus, Ryan Franklin, and backup catcher, Gary Bennett. These just some of the guys for whom there were good rumors or admissions. Lots of others probably stayed safely out of sight. Lucky them.
How come Tony LaRussa did not notice Gary Bennett was looking too muscular, when Gary rang up an OPS of 600?
Shall we asterix Gary’s hitting statistics, if he makes the Hall of Fame?
Its good TLR, Dewitt, Mo, Bud and MLB got together and decided not to be intimidated. If TLR wants McGwire to teach hitting and if McGwire would like to teach hitting, then great. MLB has now instituted a PED monitoring program, to protect players and MLB alike from some of the innuendos and attacks.
If as a result, homeruns decline, MLB can add a bit more bounce to the design of a baseball, so it will carry further. They did that at least once before. It can be done again.
Mcgwire said in one of his interviews (Costas?) that he reached 250 lbs while playing. For a man 6’5″ this isn’t a lot. If he was truthful about his weight, I would not say steroids bulked him up a lot.
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/whatstuff/stuff/7713scit3.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juiced_ball_theory
When asking people about the juiced ball theory, many of the believers came to the conclusion that MLB executives started the Steroid and HGH Scandal to cover up the possibility of the juiced ball theory [6]
I thought this was an interesting statement……………… in reverse. The likely hood that the “juiced ball theory” was started to mask the the obvious….. Anyone have an ideas which MLB exec’s?
Westie, after the hitting drought of 1968, baseball introduced a lower pitching mound. At some point, the AL added the designated hitter. And the ball was, I believe, juiced once. It would have been publicly revealed, no secret.
Sometimes there have been rumors of the ball getting juiced because of, say, changing a supplier, such that the new ball supplier had a different production process.
I doubt MLB woud deliberately increase the bounce to a baseball, without declaring they would do so. To do this would be a needless risk to their credibility. If they think it would help the game, they should introduce it, but be upfront about it. No secret.
Westie did you read the link I posted in #40?
You may have missed my point Jumbo. Evidence suggest it was a farce……..but maybe a nice cover for something else people in the know hoped to cover up.
I am willing to believe that McGwire told Tony the whole truth a while back. I doubt Tony would have invited him to be hitting coach, unless McGwire told him the whole truth, in a quiet place.
If so, then TLR lied when saying he only found out what happenned, when McGwire called to tell him on Monday. But I think this was a necessary lie, for public relations purposes. And I do not think McGwire told Tony when they were both in Oakland or when he was a player. Tony seemed hurt by the testimony in 2005 and genuinely surprised.
Canseco may allege that Tony knew all about McGwire taking muscle helpers. I am not sure Jose is conciously lying when he says this. This may be an assumption that Jose has, but it may not be actually true. Tony may have wondered, but I doubt that he knew.
Tony has admitted he strongly suspected Canseco used steroids, but did not blow the whistle. This might make it seem TLR was soft on steroid use, but it also boosts his credibility. In this case, Tony can admit something that others might find unflattering. He did not know what could be done about Canseco in those days, so he let a sleeping dog issue alone. I would add there were other players on other teams, also using. Should Tony out his star and lose? Tony likes to win.
Yes I have now read that article CC. Pay attention to the point at hand. Regardless of appearances, right or wrongs, someone is exploiting the polarizing effect of these “valuations”.
Considering how the political right exploits the abortion issue, for political and then financial gain, and seeing the obvious similarities here, one might speculate that the Mitchell report, being the last phase of 5yr program designed as an attack on the Players Union, was empowered by a similar motivation. This has had an effect on salaries if for no other reason than shortening careers. This of course puts a higher emphasis on “inexpensive youth”. There are a million profit angles.
Peds have worked for some players………if for no other reason than a placebo effect. They do effect temperment I think, and its always helps to figure your going into a fight with the bigger boots. You may find that to be untrue as the fight cranks up, but dollar on a dime says you win more fights when you take the first swing with confidence.
Why would TLR ask Mcgwire if he used roids? First, Mcgwire told him he didn’t so why would TLR question his charachter by asking again? Second, TLR was trained as a lawyer – one of the first rule is that you never ask your client if they are guilty or not.
I find it hard to believe TLR would hire McGwire without some idea about what he would say to the public. Maybe this is a mistaken guess, however.
Maybe there is a reason Tony didn’t pursue a law career Jumbo.
Had an interesting conversation today. There is some talk the Rams might try to sign Michael Vick, the quarterback who recently spent time in jail for his part in a dog fighting operation. He might end up part of the sports celebrity circle here. So the question is, seeing as Vick has appologized and admitted his part, does Tony forgive him and welcome back into the local sports scene? What’s in the past is past, right? I’m trying to talk my son into trying to ask Tony that at the Q & A tomorrow.
Mo and BD said they didn’t know – they just wanted him to address it and be honest. Sounds plausible. Why would TLR (or anyone) have to know what he would say as long as they were willing to hire him either way? Try to think logically Jumbo.
Apology to RCW. One of his posts from Friday morning somehow was lodged in the site spam filter, which I just noticed. I see nothing objectionable in it. It just happens sometimes, as Jumbo can attest. His words follow, which are also way above as response #13.
How does a field of possibilities become “polarized”? Why doesn’t CC’s thoughtful lab coat contribution quite get it for some? Why do WC’s attempts at a wider framework for causative evaluations always fail to satisfy? And most importantly, why is Jumbo……….well, Jumbo?
I had a Ken G. jr ball, signed……….. I gave it to the bag boy at the store when he asked if I had every seen one. His needs were greater than mine. I’ve signed a few autographs. I knew to ask for an autograph from an 9yr old girl who had just did a wonder recital. Sometimes we have watch and encourage from different vantage points along the pathway.
He probably sold it on ebay Westy. I gave my #15 jersey to my dogs after he dropped that ball. Its been keeping them warm all winter.
I just read an article on Street and Smith’s Sports Business Daily which shares various PR professionals’ views of the McGwire rollout strategy. For those interested, it is worth the read, IMHO.
In other McGwire news, Carlton Fisk rips both Big Mac and his own former Red Sox batterymate Roger Clemens.
Thanks Brian. Fisk’s opinion, is a strong indictment against allot of players, and is well justified by his HoF standing.
Adolphus Busch IV blasts Mac and TLR: link to NY Daily News
Now there’s a real baseball man. . . . . . he probably throws like a girl.
Here is Ferguson Jenkins chiming in.
“”It’s tough to hit a home run off your back,” Jenkins said. “In my era, Seaver, Gibson, Drysdale, Carlton, there were so many guys that would have probably knocked him on his butt. He wouldn’t have hit home runs the way he did in that era.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4846734
When I was a lad, we all had to walk 10 miles to school in our bare feet. My feet were sore, but I loved it and it made me what I am today. Times were tough, back in those days. Its just not the same now, with girly men like McGwire. Everybody has it so easy today.
In olden days, baseball players were real men. Pitchers threw at hitters. Nowadays, sports pundits get all upset if a pitcher hits anybody. Everything is all so prissy and politically correct. Its just not the same today. Standards have fallen, from our golden era of baseball yesteryear.
Busch IV, what a laugh. His family were drug-dealers, purveyors of alcohol. Alcohol, in excess dose, is notorious for causing health problems and family miseries. So the idea of any Busch objecting to someone building strength through weight-lifting, rather than lifting brewskis, is amusing farce.
Busch IV must be a US version of Prince Charles over in England. Born into privilege and royalty, clueless about the real world. Prince Charles flies a private jet all over the world to babble about Global Warming.
Jumbo, you see the world from a most interesting perspective. Selling beer makes one a drug dealer while illegal steroids are simply harmless muscle helpers.
Surprisingly, Brian, I do see things in a consistent way, based on pharmacology (and a socially tolerant outlook akin to libertarianism). However, I understand that it is the case that laws and social customs are often not informed by science, but by popular enthusiasms. These ebb and flow, through time. As a journalist, you may feel obliged to conform to popular culture. Please rest assured, I do not begrudge you this professional need.
Alcohol is notorious and often abused. This is abundantly known, over the centuries. Busch used its ownership of the Cards to help sell beer. So the idea that the over-privileged scion of a beer family fortune would turn up his toffee-nose at the idea of a player, in this case Mark McGwire, bettering himself through hard work and steroids does strike me as unintentionally funny, yes.
Jumbo is not a prude and likes some alcohol now and again. I do not think there is anything wrong with drinking some or selling some beer.
Yet, I also see nothing wrong with an athlete, whether in baseball or football or in another sport, exercising and prudently taking medicines to build muscle strength. It was the road to fortune for Arnie Schwartznegger. If sports administrators do not want players to improve themselves, then they should institute a monitoring program to prohibit this unwanted behavior. This has now been done. Its too bad it was not done earlier.
Testosterone is a natural moleculcar endowment of humans. It is a chemical with which our bodies are endowed and for reasons. It helps make males more aggressive and to build muscles. So, yes, it is a muscle helper. I am correct in calling it such. Its not illogical for pro athletes to want to supplement their natural endowment with some extra testosterone.
This can raise a potentially valid sports administration issue. But its not necessarily a health issue and it would be dishonest to exaggerate the risks posed by muscle helpers to athletes. This seems commonly done, as a bait and switch tactic, as in the claim the reason for keeping certain PEDs out of the game is for the protection of athletes. This would be naive or hypocritical. I can accept a prohibition on sports administration grounds, but banning molecules that are in our bodies naturally already in order to invigorate us makes it hard to argue they should be banned because they are bad for us. HGH serves as another clear case in point.
Jumbo makes a worthy point about IV’s circumstances, and his qualifications to judge someone whose circumstances he could not imagine. Assuming MM comes from a more or less avg middle class family. He finds himself in a position to possibly put his family into financial security for generations if he can just get over the top, so he does what he deems necessary at the time, compromising some principles in the process.
If IV thinks that his ancestor didn’t do the same kind of thing and make the same kind of decisions and compromise the same kind of principles to get over the top in the cold hard world of big business, he has his head in the sand. His family fortune arose in the days of the most ruthless capitalism. Ask him what happened to his illustrious ancestor’s business partner, Mr. Anhauser. My guess is that MM is a saint in comparrison.
IV would probably say he’s sorry about the ruthless practices that helped create the wealth that he benefits from, but not sorry enough to give the money back, so what’s the difference. IV’s ancestor, like MM, may later regret some of the decisions made to get over the top, but someone already at the top from birth couldn’t possibly understand the psycological forces at work in those striving to get there.
Whitey’s statements at that banquet where interesting. He thinks that using steroids cause injuries because muscles become too big and strong too fast, and I take it, causes some kind of unbalance or something resulting in injuries. Then of course, more steroids are used to get over those injuries, and its a cycle. I don’t know if there is much to that but it makes intuative sense.
Bling, in football, steroids make players more powerful and able to mete out injuries to others, within this gladiator like destructive “sport.” So this would be one commonsense way we can see that steroids cause injuries, in a full contact sport.
Otherwise I would caution putting too much stock in Whitey’s views. Because steroid use is generally sub-rosa (out of sight), there are probably not many carefully designed dose/response studies that alone can determine effects and side-effects from steroid doses. Many opinions like Whitey’s are just anecdotal.
Its understandable too that Carlton Fisk came out against McGwire. Fisk was well known to have worked out very hard to build the strength to endure the difficult position of catcher. Now we used to hear about how Roger Clemens was a workout demon and did it all with weights. Maybe Carlton did not use PEDs, but the problem is, its hard to know who to believe, any longer. Carlton wants to protect his own reputation, so volunteers that he himself did not use PEDS, like McGwire or Clemens. Maybe so. It would be nice to give him the benefit of the doubt. But after all the many lies, from many players who lifted weights, its just hard to know.
Here are Whitey’s complete remarks. For not wanting to say anything, he said a lot:
Count me among those that are skeptical that Whitey has a clue what he is talking about.
Whitey venting his opinion steroids are a health problem is simply his opinion. It has been claimed Mr. Herzog is outspoken about many things, some of which are dubious. But as a faithful fan of the first amendment, I support the right of sports personalities to venture their opinions, right or wrong.
Decades ago, old timers would say that a player was too muscular and could lose his hitting effectiveness by becoming too thick or by growing the wrong muscles. Lonnie Smith and Willie McGee were Herzog players, using speed and making contact. Jack Clark was different, a strong man, who used to admit that he never worked out to maintain his body. He may have potentially lost a few years of career as a result.
The next generation of players, including McGwire, added more strength training. This included weights and for some the logical extension was also to include muscle helpers. This enabled them to play ball for more years and to be stronger and to apply this strength to obtain greater results than they would have otherwise reached on the ball field. Russ Douhat of the NYTimes had a nice essay suggesting 50 percent of players may have enhanced their performances during the past few decades. Seems plausible to me. McGwire is a lightning rod for disproportionate criticism because he was a bigger star than all the Gary Bennetts.
My understanding is that PED’s like amphetimines and other stimulants were widespread during Whitey’s era and on Whitey’s teams, and serious abuse and addiction problems were not unheard of. It is not plausible to think Whitey was unaware of it. In my experience, people of Whitey’s generation tend to view the vices of subsequent generations as degenerate while those of their own were just the custom of the times. It’s sort of the ‘greatest generation’ syndrome, focussing only upon percieved attributes and accomplishments and failing to attach any significance to the rest of the story. The inappropriate use of pharmacology by baseball players, and aquiessance of their managers, was not invented by Mac and Tony. Whitey would be able to tell you why Mac and Tony are different and much much worse than him and his guys were. … Sigh.
In my experience Whitey is spot on with steroids being a problem that causes injuries. Most usage comes out of season in relation to strength and weight programs. The muscle size and force expansion doesn’t equate to the ligament and tendon functions which are forced to transfer and communicate said forces…………….JC Romero was (is) a classic example. He couldn’t stop using and be successful. Finally cost him some money. He will be better without as he will regain some needed flexibility as he shrinks a bit. The guy is ripped.
In other reactions, Ozzie Guillen feels betrayed and thinks it may have cost Chicago pennants while Robin Yount will not criticize. link
I remember when muscle helpers helped Sosa to throw out his back following a hearty sneeze.
I remember when steroids must have induced Sammy to hollow out a bat and put ping pong balls or something in the center. Some will n doubt claim steroids cause a mental condition known as bat tampering disease.
I remember when Gaylord Perry and Phil Niekro were said to cheat for throwing illegal pitches. Jim Bouton disclosed the pill-popping of the late 1960s, when greenies or uppers got pitchers ready to stride out to the mound.
Baseball is full of wonderful mythology, odd opinions, and ingenious ways competitive guys try to best one another.
In this Bernie Miklasz column, he articulated my overriding concern over the McGwire situation far better than I have been able to. Here is his close:
“Epic mistake” may be an overreach, but the rest fits. One person cannot be bigger than the team.
From the get-go, Jumbo Shrimp noted that McGwire erred by not acknowledging that steroids (muscle helpers) (PEDs) helped his statistics a bit.
I am not sure why McGwire (influenced by public relations consultants) did not partly acknowledge this. I dont know if this is because they used a political PR guy who may be used to stating a viewpoint and then holding to it, or whether this is solely in McGwire’s head.
However, it is an excessive position and it exposes McGwire and the team to common-sense criticism. McGwire cannot argue that he was only helped to get back on the field but not helped once he got on the field. Even if it is true, nobody is going to believe it, so its best not to say it.
McGwire hit 49 dingers as a rookie. If at that time, he had not used any muscle helpers, then he could reason that this power is natural to him. He later tightened his swing, so Mark may reason, to himself, that when he hit 70 HRs, he was doing it purely on his talent and smarts, using muscle helpers to stay fit enough to play. Even if this is true, its not a winning story.
One way out of this deadlock would be for Mo to jump in and say that he does not find Mark’s viewpoint fully plausible on this point. Mo can say McGwire had to have been helped in terms of getting on the field more and overcoming earlier muscle injuries. And so as a consequence of this muscular help, McGwire was able to do more than he would have otherwise.
Supposedly a PR firm worked with McGwire so he could tell his side. The team was supposedly not part of that. If so, Mo can chip in his own outlook. It would be a way to reconcile the various outlooks.
Correction, Jumbo. Prior to the rollout, BDW II and Mo were apparently the only two Cardinals officials engaged with the crisis-management firm, along with MLB officials and McGwire.
I do agree these really smart people need to reconvene and apply some common sense to the proceedings as the half-truth approach didn’t fly. Unfortunately, any backtracking now will be attacked as calculated damage control rather than sincerity. First impressions are gone.
If McGwire consents to what the media wants, an open-ended press conference, he will be asked uncomfortable details about what he used, when and how much. If he answers them honestly, other problems will follow, yet it he evades the questions, he will be strung up.
There is not an easy way out. I predict they will do nothing more and try to ride it out. Here is hoping it doesn’t affect the 2010 season.
If steroids were so fantastic in engendering power, Gary Bennett might have hit 75 HRs. McGwire would certainly have a point that he did a lot on his own abilities. Plus he worked out very hard, as did Clemens. Its not like they just took a shot and suddenly turned from a weakling into an MLB star. McGwire probably appreciates how hard he worked out, to build strength and overcome injuries.
Its not as bad as a half-truth. But it is also too simple a story and the truth has to be a bit more complicated.
A lot of former athletes dislike McGwire asserting his play was not helped at all, zero percent, nada. Thats provocatively simple and invites criticism, making McGwire look bad and the Cards by extension for hiring him.
Even if Mo and DeWitt were party to crisis planning, ultimately it was McGwire’s choice of what to say. This still gives room for Mo to offer a separate viewpoint. It can be generally supportive, but still different.
A press conference does not seem useful. McGwire has shared his views. TLR has shared his views and is suspected by some as being too close to the situation. This leaves Mo or Daddy DeWitt to sum up what they have heard, offer their views, and move on.
I didn’t think Mcgwire should have answered questions about steriods. I had a feeling no good would come of it. It looks as if I might have been right. I am conflicted over what he should do at this point though. I guess my recommendation would be to not answer any more questions. All it does is bring it to the spotlight. Nothing good can come from that.
Nothing will make the media types madder than being ignored. Or failing to force the further grovelling they demand. Self-importance fuelled indignation. If they run into intransigence or a brick wall at Jupiter, it will get really over the top for a while. It will be good for lots of free face time for the Cards until finally the east coasters get tired of all the attention focused elsewhere. The only thing that would become a problem is if fans started staying away, here or on the road. That is not likely, especially if we are kicking butt.
Circling the wagons might be good medicine for whatever clubhouse troubles there may be. Hmmm. Maybe Tony didn’t have to try all that hard to get Mo to go along with MM.
Out of town critics like Brian Gumble and Carlton Fisk are irrelevant.
However Whitey Herzog and Jack Clark are members of the family. There is a case to be made Mo say something in response to their public expression of concerns. With Herzog headed to the HoF this year, all the more reason.
They have chosen sides Jumbo. Let them burn. Flush the ashes.
“I want my kids to see me in the uniform” ……. Red Flag………..
Like it or not, I doubt anyone changes course. Its going to sell tickets, not the other way around.
Be honest. Whether we like it our not, this is going to be decided on the field. If the Ludwick’s and the Rasmus’ hit, he is a hero who’s expertise trumps steroids.. If the Cardinals suck worse that Hal’s tenure, he will likely step aside in humiliation. Its game time……………..
If we lose a starter……early……..or Franklin falters…….. things are going to change in ST Louis.
Circling the wagons might work for awhile, but it is a long season. That also assumes the players are all in agreement. I bet they are not. Like any segment of people, there will be a variety of personal views. It is only natural.
Yet they will keep quiet. You can bet there are many other Cardinals, past and present who do not agree, but only Whitey was secure enough and Clark was candid enough to speak out. (Didn’t Van Slyke say something, too?)
As I have said all along, long before the coming out, this is a divisive issue. I care far less about the former home run hero or the manager and much more about the Cardinals. This saga has hurt the organization more than the gain any celebrity hitting coach could possibly offer.
“The saga hurt the organization more than the gain any celebrity hitting coach could possibly offer.”
TLR seems to like celebrities.
However, in this case, its not clear McGwire was hired for the purpose of offering celebrity, as you may be suggesting.
It may be simpler (though there is no knowable right answer). McGwire was the best hitter TLR has managed. He needed a hitting coach. He respects McGwire’s character, though knows he is imperfect, as human beings are. So TLR sticks by his guy and hires him, to do a job. TLR knows there will be a big kerfuffle. He elects to take the punishment, because he thinks it is the right thing to do, hire the best retired hitter available.
Muscle helpers have been used pervasively in baseball, it would seem likely, for several decades. They have been used pervasively in football, with few caring. Brian is a football fan and seems silent on this issue in football. A-Rod and others have said much less than McGwire and have seemingly been accepted back into the spotlight. McGwire deserves equally fair treatment, for the normally little discussed role of hitting coach. He is only attacked because of his wonderful achievements on the field, because some like to sully heroes and do not care about attacking the Jeff Bennetts.
HoF voting is its own issue. HoF voters can decide what they will about whoever they want.
If anyone should stand by a former star player and not allow him just to be denigrated by idealistic pundits and politicians, it should be his former team and team-mates. In backing McGwire, despite the heat, DeWitt, TLR, and Mo are doing the right and ethical thing.
Celebrity is an important word as it is the crux of the problem. If this was Hal McRae, his celebrity would not be an issue. The problem here is the baggage that Mac drags along behind him as a celebrity. The Cardinals are not just being ridiculed on the sports pages.
Football is irrelevant to the mess the Cardinals are in.
The Hall of Fame may be key to an escape strategy. McGwire appears to want it both ways – to only offer half-truths about the past while wanting to remain in Hall of Fame consideration. I have personally believed all along that Mac has said enough to be the hitting coach of the Cardinals, but not enough to clear his name for the Hall of Fame.
The Hall and McGwire’s historic place in the game is what most of the national figures seem to care about, not whether he is qualified to be a coach. To date, Mac has been coy about the Hall of Fame, saying he is leaving it to the voters to decide. The writers then understandably want to know more about what he used, when he used it, etc. to try to determine how to assess his results. They clearly are insulted by McGwire’s view that steroids did nothing to help his numbers. I can understand that. If McGwire does not want to provide further details, he could cut the ties by saying, “I will not talk more about my past steroid use just to try to improve my Hall of Fame chances.”
That would certainly torpedo his future vote totals, but would return him to the familiar world where “I am not here to talk about the past.” This would offer a safer port for Big Mac in the storm and perhaps allow him to carry out his new hitting coach assignment in some semblance of peace. Having said that, I am not sure McGwire is willing to give up his legacy for this job.
Being ethical in this matter is clearly in the eye of the beholder.
Brian, we differ on whether celebrity matters in this case. For instance, laws tend to be written to apply to all men, whether famous, infamous, or unknown, not just to celebrities. Just because McGwire was a great player, there is no ethical reason for him to be held to a different standard. Arnold Schwartznegger, a celebrity if ever there was one, has not been persecuted for his use of muscle helpers. His critics are more worried about budget deficits in California.
Celebrity can be the crux of the attention, so if unwelcome attention is a problem, then celebrity is indeed its crux. To me, however, the root issue is ethical. The team should make an ethical decision and then stick by it. All media frenzies about a trivial topic will disappear in time.
You sometimes have seemed to believe steroids are intrinsically “bad.” If so, giving them a free pass in football, I have a hard time reconciling. I would say enforced prohibitions on steroids have to be complied with, as a practical matter. Steroids seem merely an issue of sports administration, rather than having broader meaning.
McGwire may have offered 93.7 percent truths and have rounded upwards in his mind to 100 percent. I am unsure 50 percent (half-truth) is in the right ballpark. Should he have admitted a bit of help? I would have, but he gets to express his own views and take the credit or heat for them.
McGwire’s “historic place in the game is what most of the national figures seem to care about.” I agree this seems likely. Since I merely wish Mark well in his job as hitting coach, his historic place in the game does not matter to me, as a fan of the 2010 Cards. Maybe those who cheered him at Winter Warmup feel the same way.
McGwire could say and clarify that he is done talking about past use of muscle helpers. He spoke to this on a one-time basis, on the occasion of his being hired by the Cards as a hitting coach. His doing so was not part of a publicity campaign for the Hall of Fame. He just wants to focus on helping team-mates.
Here is a helpful dictionary definition.
half-truth: a statement that fails to divulge the whole truth.
The whole truth as one person (MM) understands it may not be the whole truth as others believe it to be. If so, half truths must be par for the course of life.
If perfection were the standard for the Baseball Hall of Fame, it would have no members.
McGwire went through a lot more interviews and probably said a lot more than Giambi or A-Rod, and was more honest than Clemens, who provided ridiculous lies to Congress. McGwire has done way more than needed to serve as a batting coach. He may do a great job. I am happily looking forward to how our lads heft the lumber this summer!
Brian, you say the Cardinals have been damaged by this – how?
HAs it affected the team ? Certainly not yet.
Damaged the reputation of the Cardinals ? With several ex roids users on the team the last few years, the reputation was already bad in this area.
Brian may be a HoF voter. If he is, then its reasonable that the impact of muscle helpers be on his mind, in relation to this responsibility. McGwire is a strong HoF candidate, based on his statistics.
There is going to be a general problem of voting on players of the 1990s. Who used muscle helpers (that were banned by the rules, but not actually monitored for by MLB, owing to the union resisting)?
Its clear some players were helped in terms of prolonged and extended careers. Bonds, McGwire, Clemens are three examples.
I am glad that I do not have to vote. What would I do, if I had to cast a vote? I would vote for all three men, because I think their contributions were sufficient even if they were somewhat bolstered by muscle helpers. The HoF is not full of saints or perfect people. Lots of spitballers and greenie poppers are already in there already. Ty Cobb wss said to be an unpleasant person.
As people, I do not especially admire Bonds or Clemens. Clemens more deserves to be prosecuted, since he lied wantonly and badly, in public, before Congress, much more clearly than Bonds may have done obscurely to a grand jury. President Bill Clinton may have told half-truths to a grand jury in Lewinsky-gate, but today Clinton still leads rescue efforts for victims in places like Haiti and is not treated as a pariah, like Mr. Bonds. Barry has been unfairly singled out for his grand jury testimony, and the real reason may be because he broke a sacred baseball record and this made sports fans mad, while the Gary Bennetts and all the other steroid beneficiaries are in effect given a free pass. This seems grossly unfair.
TLR and Pujols have said things in favor of Bonds, in times past. Good for them.
CC, I believe the reputation of the Cardinals organization has been damaged by the negative press. How/if that translates to results on the field, which I understand is all that matters to some (not saying you personally), will be difficult, if not impossible to gauge.
It reflects well on Brian Walton, as a person, if he is perplexed and concerned about the impact of improper use of banned substances within baseball. Brian knows an amazing amount about baseball statistics, so the possible distorting effects on statistics have to be frustrating. Furthermore, Brian is an ethically minded person.
A problem with supplementary use of testosterone or HGH or other muscle helpers is this must have been widespread. Its not going to be clear as to who used them, maybe many more people than who have been suspected. HGH can be prescribed by doctors to baseball players to heal injuries. In this sense, HGH is an authorized medicine. Doctors vary in their individual generosity as regards prescriptions, some being happy to issue HGH and it is legal under MLB rules. In short, many things about PEDs are very murky and complicated, as regards their effects within the game.
Should McGwire or Bonds be picked on, as a convenient symbol and lightning rod for the failures of MLB to enforce one of its rules? This would seem unjust. For this reason, I am glad the Cards have hired McGwire and allowed him to do what he likes to do, teach hitting to other guys.