One aspect of Mark McGwire’s tearful interview on MLB Network is a stumbling block to many – his view of the impact of steroids on his results.
The primary concern many media members seem to have with the Mark McGwire interview with Bob Costas live on MLB Network Monday night is that McGwire would not acknowledge using steroids to enhance his home run power. He stated his only reason for using over a multi-year period was for health purposes, to help recover from injury. Further, McGwire would not accept that steroid use positively affected his strength and his numbers.
Many seem to think McGwire overall did well by coming out. Yet, some are stuck on the point regarding what the slugger believes about the supposed non-impact on his results.
Let me offer another perspective. Why does it matter what McGwire believes? Does it matter if he is ill-informed or naïve or in denial or just plain wrong?
People wanted his admission. They wanted his apology. They surely got even more than they expected. After listening to an entire hour spent on the hot seat, McGwire not dodging any tough questions, does anyone question his sincerity?
“It’s the stupidest thing I ever did. It’s an illusion,” McGwire said regarding steroid use.
McGwire talked frankly about what he used and when, about his congressional testimony and that fear of prosecution was why it happened the way it did. He outlined the personal anguish. McGwire tearfully apologized and asked for a second chance.
Let the Hall of Fame voters decide for themselves whether to diminish McGwire’s accomplishments or any other baseball player from his era, as difficult as that task may be. They now know beyond a shadow of a doubt that McGwire used steroids.
If writers want to put into question the authenticity of his records, so be it. But that should be driven by a review of the numbers, not by what McGwire personally believes about the impact of steroids. I don’t see the relevancy.
McGwire’s stated reasons for coming forward are for himself and because of his employment as the Cardinals hitting coach. He specifically said it was not about the Hall of Fame. So, why didn’t he say enough on Monday to be allowed to assume his new job in peace?
A final thought. If McGwire firmly believes that steroids won’t help, is that a bad message to send to youth?
I am not sure why he now claimss it was stupid to take steroids. Seems common-sense as a way for an athlete to restore injured muscles. Stupid not to take them, if there is zero testing and they help you.
I do not buy that his steroid use had no effect on results. Steroids help heal muscles, just like a Tommy John operation helps a pitcher resume throwing. So of course steroid use extended careers for players in their 30s or 40s or enabled such older players to play more games than they would have otherwise played. More play means more hits, end of story.
Its plausible steroids did not make McGwire bigger or help him hit a ball further. He can probably say this. But by being healthier and hunkier through steroids, McGwire was able to play more and his totals would increase from being more playable and more at bats.
On the other hand, he was playing against steroid enhanced pitchers and a wash in terms of his matchups with pitchers. It was the steroid era.
For those interested in the Hall of Fame, steroids are complicating, not just for McGwire, but for all players during the steroid era. Since I am not interested in the HoF, this is a non-issue for me, but I can see how it could perplex HoF voters.
IMO, life is for living and for being generous, especially toward a great guy like McGwire. He loved playing for the Cards, now he wants to teach hitting. If being a coach and the cameraderie of team endeavor makes him happy, then I am happy for him. Welcome back, Mark!!
Former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer was hired to orchestrate McGwire communication strategy: link to NY Times
Not to overemphasize, but back on December 22, I floated the possibility of Washington pros being brought in to manage this. Just sayin’…
Jumbo, McGwire probably says that it was stupid to take steroids because of the long-term health issues they create. It was stupid because when some players took steroids, it put an onus on others to do so as well in order to help their teams.
Admitting to steroid use without showing remorse would have been a preposterously bad thing to do unless he wanted to be driven back into hiding. That should be apparent, yes? That publically coming out as pro-steroid is not a socially acceptable action?
” I called Pat Maris today and I told her how sorry I was.”
This was a stand up gesture on his part. Of all the interviews I’ve seen Bernie’s was by far the best. Must read IMO.
http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/commishs-hot-stove/commishs-hot-stove/2010/01/mcgwire-interview-with-bernie-miklasz/
Sorry to appear cynical, but calling Pat Maris appears to be part of the communication strategy. Mac mentioned it in at least three interviews today.
What I meant was making the appology by way of a personal phone call, before it hit the media. He could have just included it in the release.
Link to full Costas McGwire interview: MLB.com. Also links to others’ reactions from MLB Network below.
Don’t you love it when the sports commentators jump right in and say I’m not satisfied?
There is no “Jekyll and Hyde” treatise on what it like to change back and forth between a godforsaken Roger Maris grave robbing monster, and mild mannered family man Mark McGwire.
The steroid issue while real and important, has always be exploited for profit and politics.
It is likely the elongated careers and assaults on age old records that caused ownership to move against its users. They profit by it, and then discovered the steroid boys are going to cost them a fortune in the long run by playing until they’re 50. Ah the Bush years.
Go on utube and watch the video “Crack makes me Crazy”………..that’s what they wanted from him. The wanted a AA addiction confession.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRAOWepVplw
Brian, I watched the full Costas/McGwire interview and an overwhelming feeling of orchestration is all I could think about. I watched his eyes closely to see what they would say. It was a stoney stare that never wavered. Something you would only find from a confession that was scripted and rehursted over and over. His unwillingness to give any more detail about what kind of steroids or to even admit he had even one conversation with another teammate about it. It was obvious beyond belief that Mark wasn’t going to leave any room for anyone to pry further on ex-teammates. His actions of the day, as well as his answers, were so calculated to the point of me being disappointed in him again. We didn’t see a genuine Mark McGwire in that interview. I’m surprised we didn’t see a clip at the end saying “This has been an Ari Fleischer production”.
I’ve always been a McGwire fan (Cardinal era) and my 2′ by 4′ picture of him hitting the record homerun has never left the wall of my rec room in spite of everything. Mark has long been the posterboy for steroid cheats because of his testimony to the grand jury, but at least he didn’t flat out lie like all the others. However, his failure to admit that his stats may have been influenced even a little bit by the steroids was, if nothing else, a big lie to himself. Come on Mark, just how stupid do you think we all are?
Moving on, I’m sick of the steroid era and all the talk about it. I believe McGwire has a lot to offer as a hitting coach. It’s something he has a passion for and something he was damn good at regardless. I’m hoping he can restore Luddy back to 2008, help Colby take that next step up and most importantly, take David Freese aside and slap some sense into his dumb ass. Welcome back Mark, in spite of that extremely guarded interview with Costas.
I will say this AX after reading your thoughts………………who is MM? Does any on know his complexities that well Of course he was coached………….too a specific hoped for end. How can we judge that kind of performance? Could anyone, Robert DeNero? have aced that interview, whose intention was to cheapen the guy before friends and family, just to leave everyone feeling better. What the Hell is Bob Costas going to ask Tiger Fing Woods? You can eat only so much sh-t. Did they have someone brewing up the hemlock?
All that said………… I enjoyed watching some of those tape measure swings………I don’t care if he was high or not……….perfect timing and extension. The only thing that’s unfair is within the competition…………….the guy was making an oak tree look like a tooth pick……….. a fearful site to a pitcher I’m guessing.
If Mr. BD says Ari Fleischer…………………….he is an employee now if I recall.
Its plausible steroids did not make McGwire bigger or help him hit a ball further.
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Actually, it’s not. I know one of the researchers who worked on the groundbreaking steroid research with Shalender Bhasin. The subjects in their studies — young healthy males who were recreationally active — got bigger and stronger when they took steroids, regardless of whether they trained with weights or not. There was a clear dose response: the more they took, the bigger and stronger they got.
I should also note here that “steroids” is a huge category of anabolic drugs that have a variety of synergistic effects. There are also highly individual responses to them. But the laws of human physiology are constant. Human males reach peak performance in terms of strength and power in their late 20s. McGwire reached a peak of power performance in his mid 30s. No matter how many injuries he had, there’s no natural explanation for a man whose peak slugging percentage in his 20s was .618 to slug .752 at age 34.
That’s not a function of being a better or more patient hitter, although I’m sure he became both of those things later in his career. That’s a function of being bigger and stronger.
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On the other hand, he was playing against steroid enhanced pitchers and a wash in terms of his matchups with pitchers.
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This is a popular sentiment, but I think it’s clear from the numbers that steroid-enhanced hitters dominated steroid-enhanced pitchers. My personal explanation is that the pitcher, no matter how hard he throws the ball, still has to throw it across the plate. His success zone is limited. But the steroid-enhanced hitter has an infinite expanse of territory beyond the fence in which he can hit the ball. You can’t put steroid-enhanced sprinters in the outfield to run down 500-foot fly balls (although that would certainly be entertaining to watch). If it’s over the wall, that’s that.
Also, the mechanics are different. There’s more muscle mass involved in a swing than there is in a pitch. The weakest link for a hitter tends to be his lower back. If something goes wrong with the smallest muscles and connective tissues supporting the lumbar spine, bigger and stronger muscles will compensate, and performance might not decline at all. If something goes wrong in the shoulder capsule, the pitcher’s weakest link, the result is that he can’t throw as hard, and nothing can compensate.
Another point: In healthy pitchers, the arc of career performance is different from that of hitters. Performance isn’t as dependent on pure strength and power. You see peaks at all different ages. When a guy like Carpenter is better in his 30s than he was in his 20s, there’s no reason to think it’s because he’s found a better drug regimen. That’s why Roger Clemens didn’t set off the steroid alarms the way Bonds and Sosa did. (I only knew about him because friends of mine had worked with his trainer, and unequivocally said McNamee wasn’t capable of training a world-class athlete to peak performance.)
When you look at the careers of the roid guys, it gives a whole new level of awesomeness to guys like Aaron and Ruth who kept plugging along at peak effectiveness for so many years, well up into the later thirties.
Do you see La Russa as “the hero of this tale”? One Hall of Fame voter from a newspaper in La Russa’s local area thinks so. He is apparently one of the 20+% to have voted “yes” for Mac all along: link
Hank Aaron accepts McGwire’s apology: “He has my forgiveness,” Aaron told USA TODAY. “If that’s all that stands in the way between him being inducted into Cooperstown, we should all forgive him.” link.
This is one story that doesn’t have any heros. It’s understandable that in the 90′s there was nothing Tony could do had he wanted to, with the union dead set against testing and the owners against derailing the gravy train. But why should he now try to come off as not knowing anything? He, and everybody else in the game knew what was up, and Tony more that others had the evidence right in front of him every day.
The Cards should have had Ari work with LaRussa too. Ari would certainly understand the concept of plausable deniability. Tony’s stand on his knowledge just isn’t plausable.
To expand on a point made by Westy. The owners were ok with PEDs so long as the extra revenue generated by the homers exceeded the extra cost caused by longer careers, especially of the big stars.
Once FA salaries exploded upward, with the big stars dragging everbody else ever higher, and the costs of PED assisted longer careers exceeded the revenues generated by the big sluggers, then the Owners decided it was bad and had to go.
Once the owners got the media, and therefore the public, to link PED use by big leaguers with high school athlete deaths, the union had no choice.
All of that would be more or less implied if Tony said ‘yea I knew, but what could I do.’ His mention of ‘hurdles’ faced back then comes as close as the owners or the union ever want him to come to feeding them a sh@t sandwich.
Sorry, bb/WC, but I am not buying that theory. It assumes the lords of baseball control more than is realistic. External pressures played a big role in MLB’s decision to step up PED enforcement that had to be far more heavily weighted than concern over escalating salaries. Loss of anti-trust status, Congress threatening to dictate drug policy, etc. were much bigger concerns, I expect.
Me and my wife were talking about this topic last night. Everyone wanted Mark to apologize. My contention was no matter what he said he would be bashed by people who wanted more contrition.
I would like to think my knowledge of steroids to be a little more involved than the typical person and I can tell you that when used in small amounts testosterone injections are beneficial to the body and they will not cause long term damage. But I’ve read person after person who wanted Mark to say that steroids hurt him in some way. Its pretty obvious that he used them to stay healthy and to prevent injury which they did. I know upwards of 10 people who take steroid injections twice a week because as they have gotten older their energy has went the way of the Buffalo and the cure for men who have this problem is test injections. They feel vibrant again with these injections. I have a hard time believing that these doctors are killing these men by giving them these shots every week. Anything taking in excess can kill you is my belief but when properly taken Testosterone injections will help the body, not hurt it. HGH is the same, Older people take it by the gallons because it seems to reverse the aging process somewhat and gives the elderly energy as well.
Sure there are some people who take so many different kinds including veterinary steroids as well as orals which are more dangerous. Many orals raise your liver numbers to dangerous levels but this returns to normal when you get off of the steroid. I took methandrostonelone, which is an oral generic Dianabol. I gained 40+ lbs in 6 weeks. Mark never had huge gains that you could see which tells me he used lower amounts, and didn’t use orals. Orals cause you to gain alot of water whereas injectibles don’t cause the body to do that. I believe Marks’s analysis of why he used, and it really makes me no nevermind to be honest. But his logic sound truthful to me from my experiences.
For years you would see those commercials about Steroids would break your body and all of the scare tactics. That steroids didn’t work was another popular group of advertisements. I would see those things and just laugh because they were blatant lies. Now I understood why those advertisements were out there, to try to scare kids into not using, but every kid knew someone who was using and could dispel those myths quick, fast, and in a hurry. The new ads are the different sports balls deflating because of steroid use. Also it will prevent you from ever having kids is another ad I’ve seen. Maybe if you are using crazy amounts that will happen but I never noticed any of that and my wife got pregnant with my first two kids while I was taking Dianabol, Anadrol, and Anavar.
I remember Dr. Andrews(the world famous Elbow Doc, telling me years ago that all baseball players needed to take off 6 months out of every year from throwing. This was to prevent injuries to young kids, he said. Last year I heard him speak and say that it didn’t hurt you to throw year round if you maintained strength and flexibility. Huh? I guess he changed his mind. The fact Doc’s are prescribing steroids now seems to tell me the same thing.
IMO the truth regarding steroid use is this: It is wrong because it is against the law and illegal. It does give you an advantage over the opponent who is not using. It does help your numbers, maybe not alot if you take small quantities, but it does help some. But don’t think that because you take steroids that you are gonna croak at 35, 40, or 45, just because you took them. I just don’t believe it. Like I said, the fact that doctors first mode of treatment for middle aged men who lack energy is steroid injections should tell you that it can’t be killing people. Call it what it is, its wrong and its cheating, but its not like you are a heroin addict and you will fall out dead next week. Like I said, one can abuse any drug, even aspirin and kill yourself by overdoing it and some people have killed themselves by abusing steroids but those are the exception, not the rule.
People want Mark to say it destroyed his body…………..that his using steroids will put him in the grave early. Truth of the matter is he can’t be truthful and say that crap. They helped his career by helping him keep his body from falling apart. But unless he says that the steroids have made his life a living hell, that his insides have been destroyed by steroids and that he may die any day now because of his use, then we don’t think his apology went far enough………………He’s not preventing the kids from using because he is not telling them the downside of steroid use!!!…………………Cheating is the main downside and that should be enough. But wanting Mark to make up some fictitious claims because those claims will help deter steroid use is just plain silly. Kids who felt the need to try them would try them regardless of what myths are out there.
And finally, no matter how Mark went about his apologizing to the various people about his cheating the game, its awful hard to not give him a little credit for making the calls and sitting down in front of the camera to apologize. I’ll be honest and say I hated to see him cry, and I can tell you that I would never have cried over steroid use. But unless he is a mighty fine actor those tears seemed legit to me.
This seems to go right along with what I wrote just the other day, to those who much is given, much is expected. And people expect Mark, because of who he was to go above and beyond in regards to his admission by making the world a safer, steroidless place. And that is a might bit ridiculous IMO.
RC and Lou, thank you for sharing your experiences.
RC, just one side comment. In the Costas interview, McGwire said he predominantly used oral rather then injected drugs. Of course, he was not specific in any way other than admitting trying HGH once or twice.
as others said……….no matter what Mac says its not going to be enough to satisfy everybody.The same Media who are bashing today where the same media selling papers or getting viewers during the HR chase .Espn leads the way in hypocrisy.where was the lynch mob with Arod and David Ortiz? Espn led their coverage everynite with the HR battle in 98 and now their talking heads want to crucify Mac.
IMO Mac admitted his mistakes and said he was sorry.What more do you want……….a public lynching? Better yet let all the perfect people who haven`t made mistakes stone him the town square.Burn him as a witch,Crush him with stones.Make him wear a scarlet “S’ on his shirt.
Brian, my time line might be wrong, but I believe by the time those external pressures became a serious issue, PED tolerance by owners was no longer profitable anyway, and it was mainly the union blocking any movement. I’m using 2001, the A Rod contract as the turning point. Although he was not an old guy, the owners could see where they were headed. The external forces were more of a factor in ending the union’s ability to block reform.
Sorry, bb/WC, but I am not buying that theory. It assumes the lords of baseball control more than is realistic. External pressures played a big role in MLB’s decision to step up PED enforcement that had to be far more heavily weighted than concern over escalating salaries. Loss of anti-trust status, Congress dictating drug policy, etc. were much bigger concerns, I expect.
Brian, your analogy is a perfect example of the problem. After watching health care neutered and rendered meaningless by special interests, it should be apparent that government is an extension of the special interests. The timing of the steroid focus by congress couldn’t be more obvious. George Bush!!!!!!! I could go on an on with this, but consider just this;
The hiring of Ari Fleischer as a consultant???????????? White house press secretary????????
Famous for the late Friday press release to control the inflammatory nature of the media news cycle………………..releases the wolves on Monday morning????????????? No chance……….. that was the commissioner who orchestrated that. Ari was BD taking as much cover as he could.
The commissioner’s office has been a direct extension of those special interests since Bud took over……… Still exploiting their leverage. It only takes a few purse string committee chairman to create this illusion…………….
If I were Barry Bond, or Rodger Clemmens……..I would jump in and start blubbering and confessing right this minute, saying, “yeah, sniff, it was just like what Mark said”.
I
Well said 52.
Thanks for the input RC and Lou. It is priceless to us regular folk, and free. Thank you.
I’m beginning to sence a great similarity between the way society in general handles the global warming issue and the PED issue. Ignoring those aspects of the truth which are inconvenient, if not flat out lying, is seen as an acceptable means to achieve the politically correct end. If Mac was not hurt by steroids, that is an inconvenient truth. Conversely, if him saying he was hurt by it supports the politically correct position, then he should say it whether true or not. That’s not to say global warming and the badness of steroids are not real, I have no idea, but I am totally sure that the proponants of both would lie to me to get me to support their cause.
There are around 75 major league position player free agents, and around 95 pitchers, total around 170. I would guess there are not half that many 40 man roster spots, and a few of those may get filled by minor leaguers not now on 40 man rosters. About this time next month the low hanging fruit will be at knee level.
I’m seeing where Joel may now be talking about 2/15. DD would know if that’s a bargain, and anyway he has quite a few fish heads to root through in search of a reclaimation project.
Lou wrote, “This is a popular sentiment, but I think it’s clear from the numbers that steroid-enhanced hitters dominated steroid-enhanced pitchers. My personal explanation is that the pitcher, no matter how hard he throws the ball, still has to throw it across the plate. His success zone is limited. But the steroid-enhanced hitter has an infinite expanse of territory beyond the fence in which he can hit the ball. You can’t put steroid-enhanced sprinters in the outfield to run down 500-foot fly balls (although that would certainly be entertaining to watch). If it’s over the wall, that’s that.”
Lou, I would argue that steroid enhanced batters still have to be able to hit the ball no matter how strong they are and nowhere does any research suggest that steroids make ones hand eye coordination any better. Pitchers on steroids will tell you that they did them to aid in the recovery time, not break the bench press record, or throw the ball through a brick wall, although a few extra mph never hurt anyone. And you may find that most of the steroid users were relievers.
No doubt any steroid makes you stronger to some degree, but many do not add superhuman strength to a person. So the person may not see a real dramatic strenth gain while on certain steroids. Mark may very well be saying that he never saw a pronounced strength gain while he was taking a particular steroid hence he doesn’t think that the steroid added HR power which would be why he doesn’t feel that it increased his numbers that much.
WC, why oh why are you killing my man Bush? I could move you to Alabama for a few weeks and you would either move back to where you came from or you would be a staunch republican.
Do they have a “Cheerleaders Club” franchise there? I could use a good cheering up.
If there was any doubt about the varied readership here, this should make it clear. In an interesting exchange, I was contacted by a CNN producer, asking me to provide a couple of tweets regarding the McGwire situation to potentially be used on the Rick Sanchez show at 3 PM EST today. He has a feature called “Rick’s List” quoting tweets sent him.
Being limited to 140 characters each made it a challenge. Here are the two I sent:
Even if they make the air, it will be my shortest appearance ever!
Update: They did and it was!
Fleischer was there primarily to deal with the Congressional hearing complications. Its at this point that Mark could have possible crossed up Selig and BD. He didn’t………………….. One might suggest or infer that an immunity from some rink dinky, no evidence prosecution for possession of steroids would hardly have been be too much to ask for a player to testify…………………… Unless someone got just what they wanted out of this whole affair…… They held Bonds in the cross hairs all these years as more than an example. His freeze out by owners and its justification is a massive justification and defense of owners colluding together, and they have used it profitably for a number of years now as the first line of defense if the Union asks for a hearing.. I believe that the Clemens leak balanced it racially and they’ve hid behind it for a couple of years………….. Rodger faded away, and Barry retired…………….so it MM as the poster boy now.
Why wouldn’t we be looking at Joel for 2/15?
The idea that anyone would be asked ‘to provide’ some tweets seems kinda bizarre. I’m sure the segment is made to seem like its stuff they just plucked from what’s going around out there, rather than specifically made for their TV show. I wonder if they read the comments too? Can you add spell check?
Sorry, too low-budget for spel-chek…
Westy, don’t forget the Bush’s are well connected, daddy’s a director emeritas you know. Keep an eye peeled for black choppers on moonless nights.
You don’t think Ari met with Bill………….who paid his consultation fee…….. and nothing was communicated? I’ve read a little criticism here about the coaching job Ari did…….. I’m not so sure.
The only part the Mark nailed was abut the congressional hearing……………being sure to mention Waxman and not John McCain as the power broker. He seemed to be clear about that difficult and all- American activity. If Waxman (democrat) would just cut him a little slack, this whole mess would have been over.
Bud just came out and said all is good, and that Marks crucifixion is seems adequate. He has held and framed the dialog on this mess from the very beginning. The leak on A_Rod has to have had his consent..
Glad that McGwire did the talking yesterday and really there is no way he can win with a lot of sportswriters.
I believe the steroids helped him recover from injury and let him bounce back sooner etc. and that could be stretched to say that steroids did help him hit home runs, because if you are on the DL ya
ain’t hittin’ ‘taters .
But I also agree that no drug is gonna magically produce more home runs and still believe that tighter wound harder baseballs, lighter harder bats, smaller ballparks and inferior pitching contributed more to the power surge of the 90′s and early 2000′s than steroids did.
for what it is worth-here is Joe Posnanski’s take
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/joe_posnanski/01/12/posnanski.mcgwire/
I figured if Mcgwire was using PEDs and his fly balls were now going for HR’s he should have an unusually high BABIP or at least it should have gone up after using PEDs. Well, it was below average before he took PEDs and it stayed below average afterwards. No evidence there that PEDs helped.
He and his handlers should have known it was a losing arguement though. The intellectual superiority delusionals, who are alone entitled to decide what is moral and ethical, decide what boxes need to be checked. If you are not going to check them all, you might as well just tell them to go to hell.
So if W was pulling the strings on a congressional hearing (along with help from Bud) why was McGwire at the hearing? They could have chosen lots of guys, why would they choose the player that played for the team of W’s pal? Note: If McGwire hadn’t have have been summoned to that hearing he would be in the HOF right now.
Why would Bonds, who Selig seemed to hate and was the player holding back the poster boy Arod (not yet ID’d as a PED user) and Pujols (again, played for the team of W’s pal), not called to the hearing? So what if he’d taken the 5th – it would have totally vilified him (as we saw with McGwire).
If you haven’t figured it out, I don’t buy Westie’s theories (what’s new!)
Thanks, chief. I don’t re-tweet a lot, but when I saw Posnanski’s article earlier, that is what I did.
CC, that is a very interesting line of thinking on BABIP. Has it been explored on a broader basis for the steroid era or are you the first to look at what seems at first blush to be a very obvious indicator? Tell me more, please…
As you probably have heard, the stat of home runs per at-bat is the one used to attack the players of that era. Costas hammered it home again with McGwire last night. Is there an argument that BABIP is more relevant, more telling?
W couldn’t tie his shoe laces……..let alone pull a string……… what does he have to do with his administration? Waxman wasn’t remotely involved in this. He was just the self righteous idealist. Didn’t he inherit the chairmanship after the 2004 election?
Was that MM hearing after the anonymous testing? Ya think. He was the White poster boy because everyone knew he used, even though he retired before the test.. They knew at that time who was using and who wasn’t among the invitees. The farce about the Balco investigation discoveries was just to cover tracks of when they knew…………..MaGwire was sacrificed at that time. He got good legal advice alright…………………..BD was drinking blood with Cheny at that time, paying for his new stadium.
Have never seen anything on BABIP and steroids – it was just a thought. Probably someone has done some work on BABIP and HR. Thinking more, it probably is a wrong line of thinking as I think BABIP does not include HR’s. ( i think the actual formula subtracts HR’s from both the numerator and the denominator.
HR/fly ball rates, maybe? Without exact usage dates, it’s tough to compare, but they definitely rose throughout his career.
I wonder if the baseball writers and all the other critics of McGwire and friends will speak (write) out against HOF selection for TLR, Selig, and all the others in baseball who new about PED use but looked the other way.
CC, home runs are not considered to be “in play”, but if fly balls were to leave play instead of creating outs, BABIP should still improve.
Nut, CC, I don’t claim to understand all that stuf, but generally speaking any increased ability to hit more flys or more flys further would seem to me to be dwarfed by the ability to just stay in the lineup and get more at bats, and to be healthier when in the lineup.
If he had 15% fewer plate appearances in ’98 and 15% less home runs he wouldn’t have broken any records. It is worth noting that his career high for plate appearances was in ’98, and if he had 15% less it would have given him a number more typical of his other years. So the theory that he loaded up in 98 to stay in the lineup and that is what led to the HR record could be totally true.
The Miami Herald has an interesting article about an agreement between the Union, MLB and the Marlins, that the Marlins need to spend more of their reveue sharing money on player payroll. Here are excerpts followed by the link.
MLB, union: Florida Marlins need to spend more revenue-sharing money
Major League Baseball and the players’ union have expressed concern that the Marlins aren’t using enough revenue-sharing money to increase players’ salaries.
“. . . .Financial records for major-league teams are kept confidential. . . .
However, as part of the Basic Agreement, the union is permitted to see those records to make sure clubs are holding up their end of the bargain.. . . . .
Super agent Scott Boras has complained openly about the lack of spending by clubs receiving large sums of money through revenue sharing. And in December, Red Sox owner John Henry said in an e-mail to the Boston Globe that the current system for revenue sharing needed to be overhauled. “Change is needed and that is reflected by the fact that over a billion dollars has been paid to seven chronically uncompetitive teams, five of whom have had baseball’s highest operating profits,” the Globe quoted Henry as saying. “Who, except these teams, can think this is a good idea?”
http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/baseball/v-fullstory/story/1421139.html
RC wrote:
“Lou, I would argue that steroid enhanced batters still have to be able to hit the ball no matter how strong they are and nowhere does any research suggest that steroids make ones hand eye coordination any better. Pitchers on steroids will tell you that they did them to aid in the recovery time, not break the bench press record, or throw the ball through a brick wall, although a few extra mph never hurt anyone. And you may find that most of the steroid users were relievers.
“No doubt any steroid makes you stronger to some degree, but many do not add superhuman strength to a person. So the person may not see a real dramatic strenth gain while on certain steroids. Mark may very well be saying that he never saw a pronounced strength gain while he was taking a particular steroid hence he doesn’t think that the steroid added HR power which would be why he doesn’t feel that it increased his numbers that much.”
—————
Agreed on the point about different steroids having different effects.
McGwire, genetically, appears to have been a super responder. In the bodybuilding world, it’s acknowledged that the guys who win championships take fewer drugs than the ones who never make it to the pro ranks. Some people are just wired to respond.
I bring up bodybuilding because that’s how Mac first got hooked up. (His name came up in FBI wiretaps in 1990, during Operation Equine. That was the first year the anti-steroid laws were in effect, and the feds were trying to untangle the trafficking networks in Southern California.) And when you look at how much bigger he got, while staying lean, you know there was a supraphysiological response — Harrison Pope’s research, explained in The Adonis Complex, shows how steroid users exceed natural limits for muscle mass while staying lean. (You can pack on just about any amount of muscle mass if you’re willing to accept the fat that comes on top of it.)
The question of hand-eye coordination is an interesting one. I interviewed a researcher at Harvard one time who showed that guys with the most natural testosterone also had the best hand-eye coordination. No idea if supplemental testosterone would increase coordination and improve reaction time, but at least we know there’s a theoretical explanation for why it might.
Strauss’ new article notes that TLR was kept out of the internal meetings prepping for the media blitz. On one hand, I understand because he is just the field manager. On the other, he is highly-visible and probably could have benefited from being a part of the coaching.
Here is one interesting comment he made to Strauss which seems very out of place from someone who knew nothing until two days ago. I guess he is repeating what McGwire just told him?
“La Russa referred to McGwire’s initial experimentation with steroids in 1989-90 as ‘a little flavor here and there. That is not right, either. But he was not a big abuser at that point.’”
McGwire backed off a little bit in talking to Rick Hummel. Too bad he wasn’t coached into saying this to Costas.
“”It got me back on the field and allowed me to get more at-bats and play more games. Based on that (increase in playing time), it did help me to get there (to home run marks).”
Hardly a revelation, but it demonstrates a little better appreciation of reality than shown on MLB Network. Probably not enough to change all those first impressions though, since it still falls short of acknowledging enhanced strength and performance.
The Miami Herald article and the controversy is pretty funny. Union, League, and team are adamant no CBA violation yet there is a need to sign an agreement and issue a statement? I hate people assuming I’m stupid.
If the Union has access to the books I’ll give a lot of credence to what Boras’ says about finances – I’m sure he has his union sources.
I was thinking the same thing about Boras.
It seems clear that competitiveness is not a concern. The Marlins have had 5 winning seasons in 7 years and have won more games than the Mets since 2002. Here’s the problem:
“The Marlins have been successful on the field despite their low payrolls, producing winning teams — as well as a World Series title — in five of the past seven seasons. Yet, they have done so despite largely ignoring big-ticket players on the free agent market.
In terms of salary, the largest free agent signing the Marlins have made over the past four years has been the one-year, $2 million deal given to Luis Gonzalez in 2008 . . . ”
I also wonder if the more than a billion dollars in revenue sharing mentioned by John Henry is what’s been paid under the new agreement, which would be ’07, ’08, ’09, or if it includes everything back to 2002. Even if it includes all of it, the bulk would have been paid in the last 5 seasons or so since there was kind of a phase in at the beginning. That would support the various reports of teams getting $30-$35M a year. Plus the low revenue teams get a disproportionate share of National TV money. I wonder if the Steinbrenners like paying for the Marlins new stadium?
Lou, you sound like someone who would really be fun to talk to for an extended period of time. There is no doubt that steroids were easy to get back in the mid 80′s in the U.S. And today in latin American countries you can buy any steroid you want right off of the shelf as they will be sitting right next to the bubble gum. Much more difficult today in America to get them but it is still not hard.
I had to run blocker a month or so ago when a guy at the gym where my baseball kids work out was trying to sell a couple of my players some dianabol. Thankfully the player came to me and asked me about it and we were able to prevent a huge mistake. But I have a steroid talk yearly with our team, telling them of all my failures with regards to steroid use in hopes of detering their desire to try them. But most good players are always looking for an edge in terms of strenght gain. Most all of my players today take Phosphagen elite, waxy maze, green vitamins, and other over the counter supplements that are supposed to help you get stronger. All these things are legal but it just shows you how rabid young people are to get every advantage they can find. The weight gain Colby and the rest of my kids took in high school along with a number of other supplements they cannot even look at now with the MLB testing program. My two younger kids still take the stuff but we actually have a different blender so that Colby and Cory don’t by accident take anything illegal.
Without real hard evidence we all are forced to draw our own conclusions in regards to what steroids were taken, what benefits were there numbers wise, and what expectations the player had as well. Its so subjective IMO in many cases.
I’ve always believed that a stronger muscle should be a quicker muscle if flexibility is maintained so I believe we can all agree that steroids definately made Mark stronger and subsequently his bat was quicker, which would add distance to balls that he hit. How many HR’s this added to his totals would be hard to quantify but there is no doubt it most likely made a difference. But there is no doubt that steroids effected the HR totals of Mark M.
But I really do believe Mark when he states that he took steroids in order to keep his body from falling apart and allow himself to play the entire season free from injury. Now were the steroids beneficial in other ways other than just health? Surely they were. But he may not have seen a big jump in strength per say so he may not believe there was a huge benefit strength wise. It would be hard for any player I believe to say that my entire career was made possible by the steroids. That I wasn’t a very good player but the steroids made me a stud. Thats probably the place where Mark resides.
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There would be nothing the union hates more than a low payroll team winning, with no big FA stars with big contracts. If it had been the Marlins not the Yankees that gave Carl Pavano $40M to sit on the DL, there would be no issue even though the competitiveness of the Marlins would not have been affected at all.
What this amounts to is penalizing teams that seek to win by focusing on finding and developing talent and supplementing it with smart trades and FA signings. The approach of seeking to win by spraying money around is fine without any reagard to whether or not it produces a competitive team (ie. Mets).
It seems to follow that the purpose of revenue sharing is not to improve competitiveness but rather to increase the number of teams with money to join in the bidding for free agents, thus driving up the price. The union must have been able to convince the public (media, government) that competitiveness needed to be saved from the capitalist pigs in order to pressure the owners into accepting revenue sharing. In much the same way as owners used public concern over young athlete deaths to get the union to go for PED testing. In both cases manipulating public perception was a big part of the winning strategy.
RC, those are great points. I especially like this:
“It would be hard for any player I believe to say that my entire career was made possible by the steroids. That I wasn’t a very good player but the steroids made me a stud.”
Of the big-name guys who’re already outed, I think you can say for certain that Canseco and Palmeiro could’ve had productive MLB careers, but they wouldn’t have been outstanding power hitters w/o steroids. McGwire was a great power hitter who wouldn’t have had a long and productive career. Who knows how many pitchers and hitters managed to extend their careers and compile HOF-worthy numbers thanks to anabolic assistance late in the game?
I used to tell friends that the way to juice w/o drawing suspicion is to start in the minors. That way, your MLB career trajectory will look normal. I used to throw out A-Rod as the perfect example: “If he’s taking steroids, he started so early that there’s no telltale power spike at the wrong point in his career.” And that was before I had any idea.
Regarding your kids and supplements: I can tell you, as someone who’s close to the inside in terms of my sources of information (I know some of the guys who design and market the products, and others who study them at universities), that there are only two things that are worth the money: protein supplements, and creatine. You can throw in fish-oil capsules for peripheral benefits that might help your body get bigger and stronger over time. People in the industry laugh about some of the products you mentioned, like waxy maize.
And none of this stuff works if the kids aren’t taking care of the basics:
1) good training program
2) good diet
3) plenty of sleep and an overall lifestyle conducive to training and recovery.
The sick thing, as we both know, is that lots of athletes make it without taking care of the basics. Talent is talent.
Good insight Lou, We’ve tried it all throughout the years.
There is a product called nitromax made by a company called sandco international that would cause you to gain muscle. It was basically a milk shake of vitamins but it has alot of nitrogen in it which may be the key. We never had any success with straight creatine and man oh man did my kids take it. I tried Phosphagen years later which had creatine in it and had instant success. When you load Phosphagen you pick up anywhere from 5 to 10 lbs in the first week. After 3 months you can load again and pick up that weight again. It is pretty remarkable stuff IMO. These two things are money, that I will guarantee.
Waxy maize didn’t have a weight gain or strength gaining value I could see but the kids believe it jacked them up, they would start sweating and seemed to believe it got them into their workout quicker. I have never witnessed anything other than the nitromax and Phosphagen really having any noticeable effect on a kid but my point was every time they hear of something giving a guy a good pump or helping gain weight, or add strength they will every one have a bottle of it the next day trying it out. Its pretty funny to watch and it shows how they are always trying to gain that edge. That is not unlike the steroid era in baseball. Players are always trying to find something that makes them better, more durable, or a combination of both.
I became addicted to Enzyte when it first came out. Now after 10yrs, I can honestly say that it is hazardous to your health. Just the other day, passing by a hitchhiking cheerleader, my friend got caught in the steering wheel like one of those anti theft clubs. I won’t say how I avoided the obvious accident.
Vegetarians BB……………give us a break.
I can’t think of a more unnatural looking power spike than Maris’s 61 HR season in 1961. The next season with the same number of at bats, 33 HR’s. His second highest total was 39. That was pre-PED of course, but how can it be explained. Doesn’t it call into question the notions of what can and can’t be done without PED’s. Same for Aaron’s and Ruth’s high power and production well into later thirties. If those things can be done without the greater muscle and strength of PED’s, why not Mac’s accomplishments.
If a guy who never hit more than 39 can suddenly hit 61, why can’t a guy who has smashed HR records his whoe life hit 70?
The problem with the Marlins is that they alienate their fan base by constantly rebuilding with younger players. They might win, but no one cares to watch players they don’t recognize and who they expect to be gone in a few years. They don’t deserve to be given money by organizations who earn it by appeasing their fans.
Teams like the Pirates and Royals, on the other hand, should probably be relegated to Triple A for a few years. They don’t exist other than to make other teams look good.
You can run a blind study 1000 ways……………… you can tailor it to yield all sorts of information.
The one way a blind study can fail……..is if it isn’t a blind study……………. Two lists that will never come together………..right. The Union had to agree to that for some reason……….there in lies you answer. Look see who was the spearhead about mounting congressional pressures on the steroid issues.
Nutlaw, the second-division demotions could cause a real problem if the Royals and Pirates had to play their own Triple-A teams and lost.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?prov=yhoo&slug=jo-testingoddities111408&type=lgns
lots of information here…………… federal investigators ya say………….
Nutlaw: in post 3 at the top of this thread, you wrote steroids represent “long term health issues.”
Just to be realistic, in the long term, we all decline. We are all on a one way trip, here on earth. Because our bodies decline through time, it is commonplace for sports pundits and others to attribute all sorts of the normal health problems encountered to life to some cause (that they can reliably discern, being highly discerning pundits).
Many steroids are just molecules with which we are normally equipped, for the purpose of making us who we are. Testosterone, for instance, helps boys like girls and helps muscle development. Human Growth Hormone is natural to the human body; doctors prescribe it as a therapeutic medicine, to help restore muscles. What could make more sense?
A lot of pundits know little of pharmacology and biochemistry, so are appalled that modern athletes would actually think to take advantage of modern advances in medical knowledge and would want to boost their levels of molecules that help muscles.
A fundamental rule of the science of pharmacology is that every molecule is harmful, in sufficient dose, even water or oxygen. So of course, if someone goes wild and takes loads and loads of something good, he or she will overdose and do themselves harm. Finding the responsible dose is important, for many things in life, not just biologically active molecules.
You also said “admitting to something without showing remorse would have been preposterous.” This is probably true, as a matter of public relations. Baseball had an unmonitored, unserious prohibition on some biologically useful molecules that could help athletes. McGwire had muscle injuries for which he needed help. So he ignored the unserious prohibition. Should an athlete feel remorse for helping restore his body?
The word prohibition may be helpful. Alcohol was prohibited in the US during the 1920s. This ban led to massive illegality and was in due course repealed. Should someone who drank a naughty drink in the 1920s have been remorseful, by today’s standards? These social mores change through time. While I agree McGwire had to “show” remorse from a public relations point of view, it beats me what harm his use did. Maybe Christian Scientists think people should decline some kinds of medical care, but I see no reason why athletes cannot receive medical operations or take therapeutic molecules.
The East Germans and communist nations began to give steroids to their Olympic athletes, probably in the 1960s. This was especially ridiculous for bolstering muscular development in women with male steroids. Its a fairness of competition and fairness to women issue.
The bottom line is competitive sports are competitive. If something is prohibited, there has to be monitoring of the prohibition. A lot of ballplayers did what was reasonable, given toothless prohibitions.
Jumbo, I think its important to separate the ‘molecules’ on the one hand, and the way the are used by the user on the other. I know that I’ve been prescribed a steroid twice that I can remember, once for some type of inflamation where the tendon attaches at the back of the heal, and once for a nerve that was inflamed at the point where it passes through the bone roughly halfway between the eye and ear. In the later case it was explained that it was important to reduce the swelling and inflamation quickly to minimize the chance for permanant nerve damage. With the heel, the pain and swelling was so bad I could not function at work. In both cases my treatment with steroids was successful with no bad effects. I would think that athletes certainly could use steroids to good effect if it was legit and they could do it openly under proper medical supervision. Its the self management of strong drugs by unqualified persons that is dangerous.
Bling, you described corticosteroids — cortisone, typically, when we’re talking about athletic injuries — which are totally legal. The danger with too much cortisone is that it can cause long-term structural damage to the tissues in which it’s used.
Thanks Lou. With the heel I got one or more injections, can’t remember exactly. With the nerve it was pills, no shots, that was way back in 1983.
Bling, If you took a steroid for inflammation it was most likely a corticosteroid, the most common I’ve seen is called prednisone. Corticosteroids( they are immunosuppressive)are a different group of steroids and are not what bodybuilders or baseball players take to gain muscle, which are anabolic steroids.
Opps, Lou beat me too it.
Thanks RC. Wondered why I didn’t bulk up.
Yes, lets all bear in mind the fundamental rule: all molecules are harmful, if in sufficiently high or prolonged dose. In other words, there is no such thing as a non-toxic molecule at sufficient dose to cause a harm.
If you drink 12 quarts of water quickly, you will have a heart attack, from depletion of electrolytes. However, your body is about 60 perecent water, so water is essential to life. Water is virtually non-toxic and essential to life, but there is a toxic dose.
Prescription pharmaceuticals are controlled, because society thinks they warrant doctor’s orders as to dose. Aspirin are over the counter. Aspirin can do a lot of good, but are often used to commit suicide, by swallowing a lot of them.
So all medicines have to be considered as to their benefits, doseage, and side effects.
Bling I have taken prednisone a bunch of times for poison ivy. I am super alergic to poison ivy, i can look at it and have it all over my body. And each time I have taken prednisone it causes me to eat like a man who hasn’t eaten in 10 days. I will gain 10 lbs in a week while I take the dose pack. So it causes me to bulk up in the gut area.
Jumbo, I’m with you. Not long ago there was a radio station that had a contest to see who could hold the most water without going to the bathroom. Girl died from water intoxication. Sad stuff.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16614865/
Yes, Jumbo, most matter is arranged into molecules and many molecules can harm you. However, playing hand-waving games with terminology doesn’t prove any real points. Many “molecules” are banned or illegal for good reason, not simply on random whim.
Alcohol is a very bad example to use when attempting to defend substance abuse.
If it makes people feel better to justify their own behavior or the behavior of others, that’s fine. I’ve seen plenty of people state that because they know others who have smoked all of their lives without getting cancer that smoking won’t give them any long term health problems. If that’s your line of thinking or if you’re content that everyone is simply going to decline and die anyway, that’s fine. However, you shouldn’t be surprised when society recognizes that some “molecules” are more harmful than others and require more care.
So I guess Jack Clark isn’t buying it. Man, he really ripped into Mac. I’m going to try to get both autographs on a ball at WWU, or sometime during the season. Would have to be on opposite sides.
“cheeter”, “creep”, “banned from baseball”, “won’t shake his hand”, “won’t speak to him”.
Sounds mad doesn’t he.
That penalty box Hungo got put into for commenting about Yadi not hustling is going to need another wing.
Just curious if Hungo, Shannon or any of the Cardinal broadcasting team has spoken out this week – curious on whether they all toed the party line.
I have heard both Shannon and Rooney since then. Rooney was in the first-day blitz of calls from Mac. His final question was this: “Did you smell wood burning when you hit?” That should tell you all you need to know. I recall less of the Shannon details as I don’t think McGwire was the subject of the interview, but I am pretty sure he made no critical remarks.
It would be unfortunate if Clark is punished as he is entitled to his opinion, but he may not have too many standing next to him after taking such a strong stance.
Clark won’t endear himself to the brass, but I don’t blame him. The honest players got overshadowed by the cheats. If I got passed over for promotions or raises by people who broke the law to get them, I wouldn’t want to talk to them or shake their hands, either. I most certainly wouldn’t want to see them publically celebrated.
If only the line between fair and foul was as clear as on the field. No instant replay here, either…
Every person in the good ol US of A deserves to speak his mind but sometimes some people just appear to be craving attention. And it is good to know that JESUS wasn’t the only human to walk the planet free from sin
Someone remind me the drop down on my knees the next time Jack Clark enters the room and beg forgiveness for my sins. What a complete idiot!
All jokes aside, I’m sure Mark M is just crushed that the world famous Jack Clark is not gonna shake his hand, or speak to him. I don’t get mad from Clarks comments, I get jealous. Much ado about nothing. There aren’t too many people outside of St. Louis who even know who Jack Clark was. And instead of staying above the fray and showing a little class he dives down into the muck with some primary schools name calling. I’m impressed, no really, I’m impressed
Nutlaw, really, you don’t blame him? Wow!
I can just hear Stan Musial pop out and call someone a cheater, a creep, and finish it off by saying he wouldn’t shake someones hand or speak to them.
Do you know Jack Clark? Have you ever heard the stories about his fooling around with teammates wives? And Jack Clark won’t shake Mark’s hand for taking steroids? hmmmm. Won’t talk to him? How childish can one person be? And do you believe Mark has been publicly celebrated this week? I think he has been beat up way more than Arod, or Manny, or Andy P. I’m not sure I would consider him celebrated at all.
A-Rod never inhaled……………. you’ve got your chef’s hat on today to RC.
Beltran is so discussed with the Mets, he just missed spring training………….. He’s a piece of work.
http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/forgiving-mark-mcgwire/
Earlier, I had missed this nugget from Bernie Miklasz. Wonder whose idea this was?
“The Cardinals were so paranoid about potential leaks of McGwire’s plans to disclose his steroid use, several team officials had to turn over their cell phones Monday after being informed of the pending announcement. The phones were returned after McGwire released his statement.”
I guess they got their money’s worth after all.