Now that the Cardinals have agreed to terms with outfielder Matt Holliday on a record-setting new contract, is the jury in on the big trade that brought him to St. Louis in the first place?
In reaction to the mass emotion exhibited at the time of the St. Louis Cardinals’ July 24 acquisition of Matt Holliday and $1.5 million from Oakland in return for Brett Wallace, Clayton Mortensen and Shane Peterson, I wrote an article entitled, “Will the Holliday trade be good, bad or neutral?”
In it, I tried valiantly to remove the initial excitement, whether positive or negative, and develop a structured, rational view of how I would consider the trade, both that day and over the long haul. The idea grew out of a long discussion with the Post-Dispatch’s Derrick Goold in the press box of Philadelphia’s Citizens Bank Park that evening.
To that end, I prepared a detailed decision tree with multiple conditions. We now have two of the three answers to my questions:
- Win the 2009 World Series – no
- Holliday re-signs below market value – no
- One or more of the traded players become a star – TBD
- If yes, my score will be that the trade was bad.
- If no, my score will be that the trade was neutral.
Let’s take the points in order.
1. The Cardinals did not win the World Series. I doubt anyone would disagree that the driving force behind the trade was to improve the team in 2009. One step was to get the club into the post-season, then once there, improve their chances of going all the way.
For me, it wasn’t good enough to just make the playoffs. Though the Cardinals were in first place at the time of the trade, their lead was tenuous. No doubt Holliday played a key role in the 36-24 (.600) record posted by the club after his arrival. Yet the team went three and out in the NLDS, losing the pivotal second game on a Holliday error.
2. Holliday clearly did not sign below market value. That means the Cardinals conceivably could have pursued him just as doggedly this winter had they not traded for him first. Offering him $120 million was just as possible had he reached the open market as a most recent member of the A’s or wherever else he might have been traded last summer instead of St. Louis. One thing we know about agent Scott Boras is that he takes his players to free agency, no matter what team they are on or how much that club wants the player back.
There would have been an additional cost in losing their first-round 2010 draft pick for signing Holliday in that manner, but the Cardinals would still likely be ahead in the prospect side of the equation because they would still have the three players traded for Holliday.
Though supposedly disavowed by Holliday earlier in the fall, the Cardinals may have achieved some re-signing benefit through the comfort and familiarity Holliday gained as a player with the Cardinals and his family achieved in being a part of the organization. Was that the game-changer? Asking Boras, I can bet his answer would be “no”. In reality, it probably mattered, but not in a measurable manner.
Since we are talking about money, I want to delve into the terms a bit, as I am seeing a lot of mixed reports.
As I believe from multiple sources, there is a $17 million per year salary with $2 million deferred annually without interest. The eighth year at $17 million vests if Holliday places among top ten in NL MVP voting in year seven or there is a year eight buyout for $1 million. Full no-trade protection was provided.
The deal is stated as seven years/$120 million and could grow to eight years/$136 million. I have not seen mention of the deferral timeframe, but the AP said the present value of the deal is about $16 million.
Update: The AP has published the final details:
The Cardinals must decide whether to exercise the 2017 option within five days of the end of the 2016 World Series. As already noted, the option would become guaranteed if Holliday finishes among the top 10 in 2016 NL MVP voting.
Depending on whether the option is exercised, Holliday will receive $1.4 million or $1.6 million each July 15 from 2020 until 2029.
Holliday receives a full no-trade provision, a hotel suite on the road and the same award bonus opportunities that Cardinals teammate Albert Pujols has: $50,000 for election to the NL All-Star team, $25,000 for All-Star selection, $50,000 for division series MVP (an award that doesn’t yet exist), $100,000 for league championship series MVP, $150,000 for World Series MVP, $200,000 for NL MVP and $50,000 each for Gold Glove and Silver Slugger.
Let’s consider the winners and losers.
Boras originally wanted eight years, $180 million. It was alleged he later dropped his expectations to $18 million per year. Since the Red Sox reportedly offered Holliday $16.5 million per year and Jason Bay received that same average annual value (AAV) from the Mets, it provided the lower ceiling. It only seemed logical that the Cardinals could not skate by paying less than $16.5 million per year.
Like in Teixeira’s deal, Boras did not settle for lower annual values in the later years of the contract. Therefore, Boras’ wins were there and in the term of the contract, as he ended up with seven, perhaps eight years.
The Cardinals seemed to want to hold to five years and around $16 million early on. Once they were willing to go seven or eight years, they were penned in.
Buster Olney from ESPN is one of the many questioning the deal, quoting a rival GM who said this, “They (the Cardinals) look like they spent about $30 million more than they needed to.”
To me, the viewpoint seems off base, as the AAV factor was not separated out from the number of years factor. I believe the former to be reasonable. What the other GM should have said is “The Cardinals look like they went two years too long, compared to other bidders.” That, I could understand, though the hotly-disputed rumor of Baltimore’s mystery bid of eight years, $130 million guaranteed may have been leaked to head off that avenue.
On one hand, paying $17 million for a 36- or 37-year-old outfielder is concerning. On the other, what will the 2017 market be like? What will $17 million in 2017 money buy? Will it be a bad contract then? Only time will tell.
Now to the final question.
3. Will any of the traded players become a star? It is still far too early to know.
Wallace has the best chance, but has been traded again and seems destined for first base, rather than third. His value is down since July 24. Mortensen had a very rough debut for the A’s, but it is still too soon to gauge. After the trade, Peterson continued to post a .730-ish OPS in the Texas League, a good home for hitters. He lacks size along with punch.
In summary:
- Taking everything into account, if one of the three traded players becomes a star, I would consider the July Holliday trade gamble to have been a bad deal for the Cardinals.
- If none of the three traded players come through, I will call the Holliday trade a wash.
Don’t get me wrong. I applauded the Cardinals for their bold move and still do. If the World Series was the objective, which I think it should have been, it was not achieved, however. Ultimately, the effort must be judged by the end result.
Assuming his new no-trade clause is not bought out later, Holliday will remain a Cardinal for the next seven or eight years. I believe that to be a good thing overall, but the trade itself may not have been the best precursor to secure the long-term contract.
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I’ll continue to disagree with you about not winning in the postseason causing this to be a “bad” deal. The October tournament is a crapshoot, nothing more and nothing less. Getting there is the key and the 2009 Cards did that. Holliday’s contribution may have been critical, but we’ll never know for sure.
One thing about the contract hasn’t been discussed lately and that is the idea of an opt out clause. I remember when JD Drew signed his 5 year deal with LA, there was no mention of an opt out for a few days and then, voila, there it was. I wonder if there is one in Holliday’s contract that hasn’t seen the light of day yet.
I understand your point of view, Diz. Agreeing to disagree is common around here!
I don’t know for sure about the opt-out, but I am betting it is not included. That is so important, I doubt it would be lost in the unreported details. Based on Holliday’s situation, I doubt he pushed for an out, but Boras surely wants all the flexibility he can get. Maybe it was teed up and later negotiated out of the deal.
The presence of such a clause certainly would change things, though more so if it was an opt out for the Cardinals, the most unlikely of circumstances. If the team had an out, it could better protect them in the out years when Holliday’s production should decline. Then again, as I noted above, what will a 2017 dollar be worth compared to today?
That first month or so after the trade showed us all what installing a top notch clubber behind Albert would mean. Not just in theory, but in living color. Without that live demonstration of the merits maybe BDW doesn’t choose to spend $120M.
Oakland is a good developmental organization. They were in a desperate situation with Holiday last year and took what they could get. The Wallace trade to Toronto speaks for its self.
The intangibles here are monumental. Enough said. BD made money on the deal. He will make money on this deal. He appears to be in the game. It is likely that Holiday will enjoy a no-trade. BD paid the premium for denying an opt out I would guess. The Beltre contract dynamics were a direct threat to this deal, an open invitation to the Yankee’s to try the same. Think 2/25, paid 20/5 with an opt out. The good thing here is that everyone in the division is broke or eating bad contracts. Lets enjoy it.
Lucky for the Cubs they didn’t sign Broglio to a long term deal.
No fair Brian, you post about Brock and Broglio vanished.
My post was focused on the wrong point. Diz’ point isn’t about the value of players traded over time, it is of the incremental value provided during the season of the trade.
To your other post, yes Holliday both restored his value and impressed the Cardinals over the last two months. How much less the Cards would have spent had Holliday excelled instead in Florida for example is unknown.
To take it further, what if he had stayed in Oakland and finished the season as he started it? The Cardinals could have gotten a better deal this winter, but would they have wanted him? Lots of theoriticals…
McGwire got 23.7% HOF vote.
70% + of baseball writers are idiots – sounds about right
For those interested in the Cardinals spin on the balloting: “McGwire’s Tepid Hall of Fame Support Remains” is now posted on the main TheCardinalNation.com site.
Brian, nice analysis.
I’m going to let the Cards and Holliday off the hook for the ’09 postseason. Franklin was toast, Carp had an uncharacteristically terrible postseason start, and Albert was hurt. Holliday’s error was the most memorable visual of the series, but that three-game sweep was a team effort.
Word Lou.
At the time, the 3 game series didn’t stand out as especially bad. It was a continuation of the last few weeks of the season. So its not like they blazed through the season then tanked in Oct. The whole first half Albert and a few pitchers carried the whole team. They tore it up for 6 weeks or so, then flat lined, and crawled into the post-season on their bellies.
OK, wouldn’t they have done that without Holliday, who CC says is a 4 WAR player? They won the division by 7.5 games.
About the only thing positive that we might find if we looked at the “last days” is that one might assume that the scouts and strategists will be treating us the same way come April.
Unlikely……………….. no one knows what the hell MM is bringing to the table. Hal was the the weakest imaginable hitting coach for this particular team. I can honestly say, I’ve never seen anything like it.
With Ankiel and Duncan gone, I believe there is such a thing as momentum. Maybe we can get 18 pack of that…………………………….In defense of Albert, he tried to make adjustments. I predict that he will be our first crisis of the season if he can’t defend his hands. If Tony allows him to slump in front of Holiday, like his feeling would be hurt if he was moved around, that would get old in a hurry.
Colby has to be spanked. His mirror hitter should be Chase Utley. His bat position and swing path allow for a wide variety of attack and defend hitting. The power is obvious.
I have my doubts over whether Holliday would have ended up a Cardinal anyway had he not been first traded to St. Louis. I can’t recall a big name player in their prime first joining the Cards through free agency in anything resembling a recent year. That may have more to do with how the Cardinals operate than anything else, but they never seem to go after the big money guys if they have no past affiliation with the team.
Re-signing Holliday was a good move. Letting him walk would very likely have made the trade worse. Of course, now any help from the farm system will have to prove their ability to handle a position other than 1B or LF…
Brian, please show me where I said Holliday was a 4 WAR player! I have argued he’s worth more than PETCO is giving him credit for.
I cant find the number for his STL WAR last year (seperate from his overall WAR but since he was 5.7 overall I’d guess he was about 3.5 in STL – so yes, theoretically we might very well have won the divisin without him last year. Derosa was probably only worth about a half WAR so we might have one the division without either of them.
Without the infusion of new energy brought about via the Holliday trade it is quite possible the Cardinals would not have blown thru their Central division foes during that late July August stretch last season.
I feel like it was important to make the trade because DeRosa was playing hurt and the team needed
a kick in the pants which Holliday provided.
I agree with Lou Schuler’s assessment that Franklin was toast, Carp was hurt and it was a team effort including management that led to the playoff meltdown.
Any bets on when Big Mac will meet the press? I hope it is before February or it will be disappointing to me.
chief asked: “Any bets on when Big Mac will meet the press?”
Joe Strauss thinks there may be problems in “coaching” the coach and “reconsideration” was mentioned as possible, alternatives I suggested earlier as this drags on.
CC asked: “…please show me where I said Holliday was a 4 WAR player?”
In this post, I saw you mention that, but re-reading it, I see 4 WAR is suggested only as one in a range of many possibilities. I misread your post. My apology.
Nut is right about Holliday I think. If BDW had not seen for himself what Matt hitting behind Albert would do, he probably would not have been willing to spend $120M. That is why I think the trade was a big success regardless of whether we would have won the division without him.
Taking a big money guy for a test drive before signing on the dotted line is a good idea.
Nut also makes a good point about 1st base and LF being locked up, so the big bat”natural 1st baseman” type guys will have no use other than trade bait. We can pretend they are 3rd basemen and trade them to unsuspecting American League teams.
DeRo served to remind us , and Mo, what a real 3rd baseman can do. That raises the bar for Freese/Craig/Mather since they won’t only be compared to Barden and Thursten. That alone might justify that trade.
Westy said the ‘M’ word.
Everyone, please re-read the main blog post, as I just added the final terms of the deferred pay in a separate box.
Thanks!
“If I could have a hamburger today, I would gladly pay you on Tuesday”.
RC on th other thread:
“In other words, Albert will not be the Superpower he was last year from now on. Albert won’t be able to bark out commands to Matt and subsequently Albert will not be able to do that to the other players. I’m just curious how Albert will respond to not having the ultimate say in everything that is the St. Louis Cardinals from here on out. Matt will bring a balance that has been missing since Jim and Scott have moved on. Score one for the mainlanders
As for Big Mac being around, this can not be a bad thing for the mainlanders either. He will be able to put those kids under his wing like Albert does with the dominican players. Having Big Mac and MH(now around for the long haul) around is nothing but a positive for the TEAM. ”
Now RC, I clearly remember getting roughed up for insisting that things would be different next year. Your position was that with Tony back nothing would change. I think we went about 8 rounds over that.
WC: Classic!
The additional terms appear to be pro-Cardinal on the whole. I do wonder why someone making over a hundred million dollars would possibly care about earning $50k for an All Star Game selection, however.
A new day is dawning! The birds are singing again and there is peace in the valley! Damn! I feel one hell of a lot better, now with Matt aboard for several years. Believing that Albert will remain a Cardinal for the rest of his career and ultimately take the mantel from Stan, of de facto Grand Ambassador of the Cardinal Nation, I pay very little attention to the tripe and drivel about him being a Yankee after the 2011 season. I see the Cardinals in the driver’s seat for about five seasons, with a middle-of-the-order tandem which is second to none; exceeding the Brewers’ Fields-Braun duo. Rasmus gives punch to the front and Ludwick adds clout to the back. Assuming that Penny works out (giving us a sub-4.00 ERA performance) and the rest of the pitchers step-up, we’re in great shape for the next season! Both DeWitt and Mozeliak have proven that they care about winning and I’m a happy camper once again!
Just a word about this contract.
In this brief moment of reflection, it does now seem apparent that the Cardinals used their time well, negotiating with a stalling SB. I would say that after agreeing to the 17 million dollar number a week ago, BD probed with a number of payment schemes. This is no doubt the point when Matt was encouraged to make an appearance and was likely asked to resolve an impasse over the divisions or delays for the differed payments. This is likely the point at which SB leaked the 6/98 number. I would guess they argued for days, (now Mo/BD stalling) negotiating the incentive package. I would say this is when Mo gave the less that 50/50 prognostication. I would guess again that BD ended up saying he wasn’t going to give any more than Albert was guaranteed, and in the end won the day. If you could call it a win.
It appears that both sides felt they could use time as a pressuring tactic. Boras threatening with the Yankee Calvary. BD threatening via a displeased MH if Boras blew this negotiation.
Is anyone confident that this deal could have been reached with any competition at all?
There is a remote possibility the BD is starting to get hooked on baseball. Wouldn’t that be neat.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/E3BA0652ED81D2B5862576A400132EA7?OpenDocument
This is nice. Looks like it reinforces my general theory. He’s already working for the boss anyway. Looks like they opened up a chance for Albert to sign before the heat is turned on. That’s nice of them.
WC, did you know that DeWitt Jr has spent his entire life around MLB teams, starting when he was a child?
If there are problems in “coaching the coach,” that may be a healthy sign that McGwire has backbone and is not just a step-and-fetch-it. Instead of MLB persuading McGwire what to say, IMHO, McGwire should say what he deems appropriate. If he does not want to disclose anything or does not want to issue a faux apology, so be it.
If he faces the press, each fan will be able to hear McGwire’s outlooks and either reject his views or accept them. The team can unhire him, if it does not like what it hears. Just let McGwire be McGwire.
If McGwire will not say what MLB would like to hear, this may imply he wanted to return to the Clubhouse solely to teach hitting, not to campaign for the Hall of Fame, as some have wondered. If so, this would be consistent with his behavior to date. McGwire has taught hitting in the off season, since he likes talking hitting with other guys, and he has not campaigned for the HoF.
Absolutely a fabulous quote from Matt regarding Albert.
“I believe the club is committed to keeping Albert. I can’t say for certain how that’s going to turn out because I don’t really know anything. But he’s the greatest player I’ve ever seen. I’d like to play beside him for the rest of both our careers,” Holliday said. “Ultimately you have to make a decision for yourself. But my sense is their dedication to winning includes Albert as a very big part of it. To be part of a good team enables you to play for a championship. There’s a very good nucleus here that gives us that chance to compete.”
Hasn’t even signed on the dotted line and Matt Holliday is showing the leadership that you need to bring the TEAM together. This is Derek Jeterlike
Not knowing if I was getting $90M in one town or $120M in another would just be so emotionally draining.
RCW: yes, good quote from Holliday.
Changing topic, there are rumors the Cuban free agent southpaw Chapman may get a signing bonus of about $20MM. This massive bonus seems interesting. The Cards won the bid on Wagner Mateo at $3.1MM, in part because he was a 16 year old and this is still a long way from the bigs and risky. Youth alone does not warrant a bigger bonus. We see this with Chapman. He must be older and experienced, much closer to the the majors, so his bonus is in a completely different price range, much more like ML veteran free agent.
Similarly the Red Sox signed a short-stop from Cuba for about $8MM, IIRC. Such bonuses dwarf the bonuses in the much riskier market for 16 year olds from the Dominican, Venezuela, etc.
Jumbo, on Big Mac, I think you missed a key point. I did not suggest McGwire is campaigning for anything, including the hitting coach job and the Hall. This is about others pushing him. It looks like it may not work.
Bling wrote, “Now RC, I clearly remember getting roughed up for insisting that things would be different next year. Your position was that with Tony back nothing would change. I think we went about 8 rounds over that.”
I feel like the Fonz….. I was wrrrrrrrrr, I mean I was wrrrrrrrrrr, what I’m trying to say is that maybe I was wrrrrrrr. I can’t bring myself to say it but you get the gist of what I’m trying to say
Bling in all honesty I figured there was no chance to resign Matt H hence my reluctance to be optimistic about a change. It is my understanding that MH was rather quiet in the clubhouse but did not follow instructions given to him by one AP (trying not to rock the boat but not really walking the line either). Now that MH is on board for the long haul he is already taking a leadership role, see post Dispatch Strauss article today.
TLR is a hands off manager in terms of clubhouse management so when there is a power void someone steps up to fill it……. Enter Albert. TLR won’t change his approach to doing things as he will continue to have the players govern themselves as far as rules go and the like so nothing really changes with TLR at the helm. Matt will be the great equalizer. I know one guy who has been laughing ever since he found out about the MH signing. And keeps saying that that storm thats sweeping across the nation started from all of the steam that is coming out of Albert
Ok Ibelieve I can do it now Bling. You were right……..I was wrong. You know….about the lipinzzaner stallions. They are from Spain, not Portugal
Bling, in case you didn’t pick up on the movie reference, that quote is from the movie “The Crimson Tide” starring Gene Hackman as the Captain of the USS alabama which is a nuke submarine. I bring that up because the University of Alabama will have to break one off tonight in the U of Texas for the national championship.
If you do much internet searching look up the story about the three guys who drove across the country from Alabama to Pasadena, without tickets to watch the game. Two of the three are my assistant coaches. Roy Dixon and Shawn Taylor. Those two are rabid Alabama fans. I’m an Auburn fan but I pull for all SEC teams, so I’m trying my level best to keep that up.
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/story/966610.html
RC you’re certainly right about the MH signing changing everything. I’m wondering when we will get an Albert reaction quote. “Matt is the second best player I’ve ever seen……..”.
Let’s hope Big Mac doesn’t get cold feet.
I’ll go ahead and cross Portugal off my bucket list !
RC, I can’t root against the Big 12 but I hope the Tide keeps up for 3 quarters or so.
You shoulda gone with those youngsters, they may never come back
It was suggested earlier in this thread that Matt Holliday will be able to put mainlanders under his wing the way Albert does with Dominicans.
In point of fact, the Cards do not have many Dominicans. They have Albert, a US citizen born in the DR. Julio Lugo is Dominican. That’s it.
Two.
Julio Lugo has been in the majors longer than Albert so may not need a lot of mentoring. Thus the signing of Matt Holliday may liberate Albert to continue to mentor the Dominicans, especially himself.
Jumbo, Should have said Latin, not Dominican.
You see when a F lopez comes on board and Albert takes him in, makes him feel like he is part of the family, looks out for him, won’t let anyone say anything to him, generally makes him part of his family, it is no wonder a player like that will out produce his career statistics. Then Lugo is treated the same way. Makes you think.
On the other hand when that same guy is against you, makes you feel like an outcast, rides you, leads the bashing of you, isolates you, its a different ball game entirely. Can you say Jimmy Swaggert? DeRosa would be a nice example here.
All I’m saying is now that Matt Holliday is in the house, maybe, just maybe, the other guys can be treated like teammates rather than lepers. JMO.
RCW, something to bear in mind is that the mainland, the US, is primarily non-Latin. And some folks are averse to or skeptical of those who speak another language. JS has no problem with Albert being welcoming to other Latins.
You seem to suggest Mr. Pujols treated Mr. DeRosa poorly. And to compare Albert to Jimmy Swaggart, perhaps not a flattering comparison for some sensitive readers.
I recall after the 2006 final out of the World Series, Pujols and Rolen hugged one another at the mound. It seemed genuine, on both their parts. Scott’s from Indiana and may not speak much Spanish. I did not sense a lot of prejudice in either man’s feelings for the other.
I tend not to put a lot of stock in “inside the Clubhouse” rumors. They can be incomplete or misleading. Its understandable if Albert is a tough, determined, no nonsense guy; to achieve his output, he has to have a lot of internal fire. If another ballplayer has a much different personality, then they may not be friends, on a personal level. This may be too bad, but it is what it is. Not everyone is going to be the same. TLR probably wants the men on the team to figure out how to interact with one another; he does enough micro-managing on the field without trying to micro-manage relationships among players when they are off duty; the players have rights, they can choose to be friendly or not to be friendly with others, on a case by case basis. If Albert is not more gracious toward some, this is too bad and a lost opportunity, but Albert does enough for the team otherwise that I have to give it a pass and let Albert be Albert.
Save for occasional breakdowns with other strong personalities like Rolen and Ozzie, TLR generally gets along well with players, whether Latin or mainlanders. TLR respects both Albert and Matt Holliday, for the players they are and the people they are. Boras seems not to have a problem inking his clients Holliday and Felipe Lopez with the same team. Maybe he thinks they will both be treated fairly.
It may be Derek Jeter is welcoming toward all new team-mates. If so, the reflects well on him. And others would do well to learn from Derek’s example.
At the same time, its possible to have too high expectations of Pujols. Because he is such a great hitter, we may expect him to be a perfect human being in all other dimensions of life. Brian hinted after we were swept by the Dodgers, Pujols was “surly” with reporters. I felt Pujols had some reason to be frustrated and it was good to just leave the guy alone. Maybe he is less outgoing and inclined to talk to the press than some other players; people are different.
Albert was ‘surly’ because his posse had rode off on him a few weeks back. My own opinion is he will welcome the help riding point from Matt, once he gets used to it. I believe he wants to just suit up and play.
Back after Josh Hancock partied off into the after-life, some fans worried that some of the Cards were too given to drinking. Some have wondered if Chris Duncan messed up his neck from off-field partying.
Other fans can wonder if the Cards are too business-like, humor-less, joyless, in short too professional. Its hard for each player to find the perfect balance, all the time, in the eyes of others.
I tend not to put a lot of stock in “inside the Clubhouse” rumors.
—————–
The father of one of our prized young players gives us insight into what happens in our favorite team’s clubhouse, and you decide you know than he does about how individuals you’ve never met interact in a place you’ve never been.
Your confidence in your ability to read minds is truly breathtaking.
Lets keep in mind that the “Latin” players haven’t exactly walked in high society in America. They have customs and of course their language that can act as partitions. I don’t see where their lining up for a shot at the oval office as of yet………………..so lets measure out a little slack.
I dont put a lot of requirements on “Stars” off the field. But the clubhouse and the dugout are extensions of the field. If Albert makes some players feel less than welcome I will hold him accountable for that if true. He may not like being a leader but it comes with territory.
Jumbeau wrote, “It may be Derek Jeter is welcoming toward all new team-mates. If so, the reflects well on him. And others would do well to learn from Derek’s example. At the same time, its possible to have too high expectations of Pujols. Because he is such a great hitter, we may expect him to be a perfect human being in all other dimensions of life. Brian hinted after we were swept by the Dodgers, Pujols was “surly” with reporters. I felt Pujols had some reason to be frustrated and it was good to just leave the guy alone. Maybe he is less outgoing and inclined to talk to the press than some other players; people are different.”
Albert is the better player in a comparison between Derek and Albert but not near the leader in my book, which really counts for nothing except that it is my book
I would never expect any person to be a perfect human being, but then again most don’t point to the sky enough to wear out their elbow doing it. When I watch and speak to Adam Wainwright, I know by his actions that he is a Big time Christian man. Adam is a bulldog while he is on the field just like Albert but IMO is a person who carries himself like a christian should, but without all of the look at me. You as a person have one time to make a first impression with teammates and one time only. I have never found a teammate who would tell you AW is not a super fine human being. Conversly I’ve yet to speak with a former teammate who will say the same thing about AP. But I haven’t ever questioned any latin players either
Bling, I think you may be right, Albert is a beast in his preparation for playing the game. If everyone was as dedicated this game would be easy to play.
Jumbo wrote, “Other fans can wonder if the Cards are too business-like, humor-less, joyless, in short too professional. Its hard for each player to find the perfect balance, all the time, in the eyes of others.”
This is just opinion based talk Jumbo but I do find it interesting that this team may play the GAME with as much professionalism or more than any other in the Big Leagues. And falls apart down the stretch every year. And I mean every year. Could this be a direct result of the mental wear and tear of the pressure to be professional to the nth degree? Maybe or maybe not, but I’m leaning more towards the maybe. I say TLR…………let the players do the same things as almost every other team in MLB does outside of white lines and see if it makes a difference down the stretch just one time before you give it up. I’d like to see another TLR led World Series Title before he gives it up for a vineyard outside of San Fran
Not defending or attacking anyone, but people of different cultures do express themselves differently. We are not all cut from the same bolt of cloth.
CC wrote, “I dont put a lot of requirements on “Stars” off the field. But the clubhouse and the dugout are extensions of the field. If Albert makes some players feel less than welcome I will hold him accountable for that if true. He may not like being a leader but it comes with territory.”
This was my take exactly after hearing the horror stories. I was so excited for Colby to be around Albert and looked forward to him being able to watch Albert and learn from him. And then time and time again I would hear stuff that I thought couldn’t be true. I would say you’re just a rookie things will change once you prove yourself. It went on and on until Colby absolutely hated everything about Albert. If you’ve watched the ESPN 101 interview with Colby he doesn’t even begin to try to hide his feelings. All offseason Colby has made numerous appearances for charity events, baseball camps, and signings etc.. and people always ask him how awesome is it to play with Albert Pujols………I cringe everytime someone asks him, worried about what he might say. But to his credit he says the right stuff in front of the camera’s. He tells about what a great player AP is, how hard he works on his game and then as he walks off he will be but he is one sorry !@#$#@@$%$%%E
“Falls apart down the stretch every year….And I mean every year.”
This claim is too simple. The team has not fallen apart down the stretch, every year.
It also might make sense to consider money. Teams like Boston, the Yankees, Dodgers (before the McCourts broke up), spend a ton of money. This yields roster depth. If some guys break down, they have depth to fill gaps and keep winning.
The Cards are a smaller market. They have less money to spend and less depth that a big market team. If there are injuries, the Cards usually do not have a lot of former all stars to plug into the gaps. So if they sometimes sag down the stretch, it may be because of budget and injuries. Professional attitude may not deserve to be blamed.
RCW, I remember, faintly, when you used to report that Colby found the players with the Memphis Redbirds did not play the game enough for fun. He supposedly loved Springfield, but was much less happy in Memphis. There were older players, going about their jobs, less enthusiasm. It sounds like the same story, just now at the ML level.
RCW, if truth be told, I am disposed to like you. This is true and I do not suck up to other posters.
But I think its a good thing to just keep “inside the Clubhouse views” to yourself. Do we fans want to read about Colby’s parents writing about how their son does not find Albert good company as a team-mate? I know one who does not. Its me.
Maybe his parents are not well informed and Colby can be absolved from what they think. I do not blame Colby. But I do think it is useful for there not to be gossip about what his parents think, perhaps erroneously, about any of his team-mates.
You report Colby acts like a gentleman on camera, when interviewed. This is very much to his credit and honor. No player should badmouth his team-mates in public. And he can ask his parents not to share their opinions of his opinions with the public.
Does every veteran need to be gracious and welcoming toward every rookie? Maybe in a perfect world, they should be. It sounds like Derek Jeter is a very fine person, if he is this way. Maybe when Colby is 30 years old, he will be very welcoming toward all rookies.
If Albert is not an outgoing personality with all his team-mates, this is just how he is. Its good to just give him his space and let him be himself.
Jumbo I may tell you my wife can get dressed up at 5 in the afternoon and look like a 20 year old hottie. She still looks mighty fine at 12 midnight too. Even at 2:30 when we may be involved in hand to hand combat in the sheets. But when I roll over in the morning at 8 she looks like at a 45 year old woman…..at best. She doesn’t have the same appeal in the morning that she did yesterday. Now I still love her and the fact that I know she may have been rode hard and put up wet probably is the reason that she looks worn out in the morning it doesn’t change the fact that she doesn’t look quite as good. If I had been a little more gentle with her the night before she may have had a little more energy and zeal that next morning
Maybe it just seems to me that the past 5 or 6 years that the team has really stumbled down the stretch.
In 2006, the Cards stumbled down the stretch, yet still won the World Series. In 2004, they had a great team, reached the WS, but ran short on pitching and got swept. This was still a strong year.
My fundamental point is that the Cards will never have the overall roster depth of higher spending teams. So they are more vulnerable to injuries, at any time of year, including late.
So yes, there can be years where they decline down the stretch.
Its not necessarily right to blame this on the team’s professional work ethic. It could just be not having enough money and depth, and thus having nothing to do with anyone’s character or work ethic.
Jumbo wrote, “RCW, I remember, faintly, when you used to report that Colby found the players with the Memphis Redbirds did not play the game enough for fun. He supposedly loved Springfield, but was much less happy in Memphis. There were older players, going about their jobs, less enthusiasm. It sounds like the same story, just now at the ML level. ”
RCW, if truth be told, I am disposed to like you. This is true and I do not suck up to other posters. But I think its a good thing to just keep “inside the Clubhouse views” to yourself. Do we fans want to read about Colby’s parents writing about how their son does not find Albert good company as a team-mate? I know one who does not. Its me. Maybe his parents are not well informed and Colby can be absolved from what they think. I do not blame Colby. But I do think it is useful for there not to be gossip about what his parents think, perhaps erroneously, about any of his team-mates. You report Colby acts like a gentleman on camera, when interviewed. This is very much to his credit and honor. No player should badmouth his team-mates in public. And he can ask his parents not to share their opinions of his opinions with the public. Does every veteran need to be gracious and welcoming toward every rookie? Maybe in a perfect world, they should be. It sounds like Derek Jeter is a very fine person, if he is this way. Maybe when Colby is 30 years old, he will be very welcoming toward all rookies. If Albert is not an outgoing personality with all his team-mates, this is just how he is. Its good to just give him his space and let him be himself.”
Jumbo then you will also recall that I stated that this was a weaknees in Colby, and was his problem to fix. The higher one goes the more money is involved so the game becomes more serious and I would venture to say less play is allowed. This is as it should be.
Jumbo the difference between you and I is that you know who RCWarrior is, I have no idea who JumBeau Shrimp is so I don’t know if I like you or not. I do enjoy reading your stuff as well as WC’s and Blings as it is entertaining.
As for the parental views it is quite irrelevant IMO. Its not in AP’s job description to coddle anyone on the team nor should it be. My comments are more directed at having that certain someone approach his work on a daily basis with that same fervor as AP does. And why would anyone care what this player or that player even thought about the other on a personal basis. What each guy should have is a healthy respect for the other and that is all. Colby will tell you in an instant that nobody outworks or outprepares Albert. This is a respect Albert has earned and has from Colby. The fact that Albert made Colby earn his chops is a good thing in the long run in my eyes. You shouldn’t be given anything and you should be expected to earn respect as it should not be handed out easily. Colby didn’t put in the time he should have last year in his preparation and I believe Albert may have spanked him for that. This will make for a better player in the years to come.
I take my comments to be a story about how one young player was forced to earn his strips in the Big Leagues, wasn’t given anything by anybody, was really forced to see if he wanted to be a good player or not. I would be willing to bet most all rookies had similar experiences. Travis Snyder said so, as did Cameron Maybin. But the point is when your AP and a young kid thinks you are a Saint, he is knocked for a loop when he finds out you are not, ala Jimmy Swaggert. The treatment is not the problem its how ones handles it that can be the problem. I think Colby did as well as could be expected and will hopefully come out the other side a better player because of it.
Little too much paint on that picture RC.
Jumbo, Lou, I really enjoy the input from the wide spectrum of posters here. Every word should be taken with a grain of salt or two, taken to heart or rejected as absurd as the reader chooses. RC’s contributions are priceless, but not necessarily without purpose. That is his business. Each of us can contemplate that, consider facors like access to inside info on the one hand, and a father’s likely level of objectivity on the other. Guys like Jumbo and Westy, whoever and whatever they are in the brick and morter world, are catalysts here, as well as contributors of food for thought. I don’t consider the one type of contributor any better or worse than the other. I’m happy any of them bother responding to anything I might have to say. I had not thought baseball could provide so much amusement during the winter.
Jumbo wrote, “Its not necessarily right to blame this on the team’s professional work ethic. It could just be not having enough money and depth, and thus having nothing to do with anyone’s character or work ethic.”
Well unfortunately your opinions are no better or worse than mine and therefore are just what they are…………… opinions. I don’t blame anything on anybody but one can use experiences in similar areas to make assumptions on whats and why’s of similarly related events.
I have found over the years that my teams have performed better in the playoffs when they are under less stress. Now granted the ML’s aren’t the same as high school but individual stresses are similar in how players react to different pressures. I have found myself as a coach to be overbearing in every way putting loads and loads of pressure on my players throughout a season. I would consider myself to be TLR on steroids when it comes to intensity on the field. I’ve been that way for years. I have recently been trying to revamp my thought process so as to allow my kids some latitude in their approach to playing the game. Its hard to change how you approach coaching the game because your way is all you know and there is a certain uncertainty involved with making changes. I’ve just found that allowing more stuff to go on outside of the white lines has made a dramatic difference on how my kids have finished up our seasons. I had similar problems with kids burning out and being worthless during our playoffs years back and couldn’t for the life of me understand. I see similar things with the cardinals and have just wondered out loud if this might be the same thing I had encountered with my kids. There is no character flaws associated with hard work and professionalism Beau IMO.
Agreed Bling,
My opinions are a jumbled up mass of what I hear plus what I have experienced plus what I think. Those opinions then carry no more weight than anyone else’s here. They come with a disclaimer that reads for your amusement only.
RCW, thanks for your comment at 48. This mostly makes sense to me and I think our values are generally compatible.
IIRC, sainthood tends to be conferred posthumously. Most of us mortals are imperfect. Ballplayers are still human beings. They are subjected to much public scrutiny and comments. I generally like giving every player the benefit of the doubt or appreciating their good sides.
Lou: when you find your breath-taken away, please just relax. Inhale some O2. Exhale some CO2. Don’t worry about your own CO2 emission tripping catastrophic global warming, the ice caps melting, polar bears drowning. If Global Warming furrows your brow, rest your eyes at Marc Morano’s “Climate Depot” web site. Morano is a skillful polemicist, who used to work for Limbaugh, with a sense of humor. If you have appetite for painstaking detail, Climate Audit is a web site by a serious-minded Canadian statistician who smashed the UN’s Hockey Stick. JunkScience is a web site by Fox columnist Steve Milloy, masters biostatistics, Johns Hopkins U. Danish stastician Bjorn Lomborg has written books about global warming. People gifted with understanding scientific methods are among skeptics of eco-hysterias.
Hmmm….maybe its software inadequacies of my computer. Numbers on posts seem to change.
Anyway, good stuff RCW about your own coaching experiences. Something to factor is that the pro season is long and the playoff bound teams try to add more players for the stretch drives, something different from the amateur circumstance. The Cards have traditionally not had as much roster depth as some wealthier franchises.
TLR can obsess and ride veterans and this may have led to his breakup with Scott Rolen. A little more sense of humor could sometimes be helpful. Lou Piniella and Tony both come out of the Tampa Bay area. They can get on ballplayers and may be relatively unpopular for this reason with players. But their teams generally tend to do well and fans like contenders.
Nice thread gentlemen……….
One should remember here that we have a national/ international audience. Whether you’re aware of it or not, many well know writers “lurk” here, probably checking in everyday I would guess.
Jumbo, I know you are on my bench, but I will direct this comment to the hat behind the water cooler, with some civility. You seem very clear today. That is encouraging to me. Its a sign health in our community.
RC, Jumbo is a little like a Canary in mineshaft. When he starts flapping his wings and squawking like a duck, its best to take note. You may be advancing a pawn a little too aggressively………….. We will all be worrying the coming factional problems soon enough. They can and will exist, but they must be become a productive expressions of personal choice, not a scene from “West Side Story”. Enough said.
And Jumbo………………….I will let your opinions on Global warming speak for themselves. If your buddy Og wants some more blood to brighten up his painting, you best cut another torch, least he starts getting that “romantic feeling” again when your cave starts to darken.
One of these days i’ll check out MLBTR and see: “According to Westy at TCNB . . . . . . .”
WCBW, I am not suggesting RCW is advancing a pawn to close to Albert. I am actually thinking about whats best for Rasmus.
P:ujols is a big wheel. If he has a skeleton of some kind in his closet, it may come out someday, because he will attract reportage, as seen when there were some false claims a few years back about steroids. (In contrast, if Jason LaRue, just for example, has some stuff in his closet, there will be a lot less interest.)
Some years in future, Pujols will be much sought after by biographers. They will talk to his team-mates, his friends, his enemies. A lot will be said, good or bad, who knows? Not me. All I do know is human beings tend to be imperfect, as so many of us know. This is why I like valuing their admirable qualities. If negative things credibly come to light, then so be it, these would then be true aspects within an overall human being. In the long history of baseball, at least to my recall, no player has been selected as worthy of sainthood by the Vatican. But from what little I know about Pujols, he seems like a good man, so that’s my present opinion. He prepares hard, says RCW, and he has been a great player says I. Thats all I know and all I need to know, because inside the Clubhouse or in somebody’s private life, I would prefer to honor their right to privacy, to be themselves, like anyone else.
Lets face it guys, the pawn advance was awhile back. Its just jumping up and down to attract attention amidst the maneuverings of the high value pieces.
Jumbo, I know you are well-intended, but coaching other posters isn’t going to fly. People here are grown adults who know very well what they are doing. As long as they remain within the posted guidelines of my blog, they are welcome to comment. Like ballplayers, not all qualities of posters are admirable all the time.
I often see items I don’t agree with or understand, but cannot comment on everything and still do all that I need to do. You too may just need to close your eyes now and then to get through it.
I avert my eyes sometimes, including from threads where you may be enjoying excoriating my views. Have at it I say, I don’t want to deny anyone a good time. Life is short.
RCW is a good baseball man and a smart guy beyond that. He should feel fully empowered to ignore an utter chump like Jumbo Shrimp, goodness gracious.
I would just say this. Things can look different, the older we get. The views of many a rookie are going to be different some years hence. CR had doubts about the Memphis clubhouse. Ok, no big deal. My advice has been that its good to talk about baseball, what you enjoy, thats great. But lets be a little careful in terms of players inside the Clubhouse, not just Albert, any of them. Its an open Web and folks should express themselves, but its good to be attentive to facts. I try to be, even if some doubt this.
Jumbo,
I believe I have stated many times about certain players not being good fits for certain systems. They have to make do but they don’t like it. That doesn’t make the system bad or wrong. Rolen didn’t like it and was canned, Kennedy didn’t like it and was canned, Edmonds didn’t like it but was able to play through it without much collateral damage. As a player you either need to change what motivates you or you will not be a success if things bother you in a way that you can’t overcome.
Albert is the best player in the game. He gives millions to charities every year, He is beacon for Latin kids who dream of playing in the ML’s. I would guess a majority of latin kids wish they could be Albert Pujols. Albert is most likely one of the most popular players among American kids as well. One will have a hard time finding many detractors of Albert Pujols as a ballplayer for sure and my guess is as a person as well.
There are different ways to do just about anything in this life. Its hard to think Albert does many wrong. The one thing I believe would benefit the Cardinals as a team would be a more team atmosphere in St. Louis and AP is the only one who could lead that charge. The one thing I know from my years in baseball is you can’t make people lead. They either lead or they don’t. Mike Cameron, who is from Lagrange Ga has said many times that the position guys in Milwaukee really cared about each other and made a point of hanging out with each others families in order to maintain a close knit team. When you watch them play they appear to really enjoy the game but don’t win very much huh? I’ll take the winning and being miserable over the losing and having fun any day. But my point is there isn’t just one way to skin a cat……………..oh crap……..now TLR is gonna be pissed
Bling, I must be the pawn jumping up and down
Funny stuff. If you are a chess man yourself Bling you know sometimes you must sacrifice a pawn or two for position. But trust me this is not part of the end game……………..or is it. Having read over 20 Chess books I can tell you this maneuver is connected to the Queens pawn opening, not kingside attack.
So Jumbo are you telling me that by ruffling some feathers I could force some player moves? Come now Jumbeau
Really? Don’t tell Jerry Modene he will have a coniption. He will just know my plan was to piss AP off to get CR traded 
My take on CR is much the same as when a parent comes down on a child and that child runs off and says I hate that parent. He really don’t hate the parent, they were just mad they didn’t get their way. And before you know it they have gotten over it and are warm and snuggly again. AP actually bought CR a watch right there at the end of the season and you would be surprised how much that caused one young person’s views to soften. Its a grown up world and the quicker one acts like a grown up the easier it is to handle grown up things is what I say.
But I will end this by saying that to whom much is given much is expected. That passage is stashed somewhere in Luke I believe.
I generally agree with to whom much is given, much should be expected.
I am not advising that ruffling some feathers could force moves. I have no idea, one way or another.
Rather I try to suggest that many will assume you have a reliably complete perspective of inside the team information. And what I am counter-offering is that sometimes limited facts or rumors or opinions can be incomplete or hard to interpret, in fair and fuller perspective, and our outlooks change a bit, as we learn more.
For instance, you suspected Holliday would jump ship. I was more unsure about this and it worked out for the best. Sometimes we do not know what everyone else truly thinks.
The Cards had Pineiro and Molina from Puerto Rico; Reyes from Mexico; and picked up Lugo from the DR. If Albert is nice to those guys, great. They need friends too.
If he is less outgoing with some other guys, I give him his space, to be himself. There are plenty of other veterans around who could show kind inclusiveness toward younger players, such as Carp or Wainwright. Lets not put the entire social burden on Pujols, even if Derek Jeter is a great guy. It may be ok for Albert to just focus on playing.
If Albert gave Colby a watch, thats great and its nice this meant something to Colby. Maybe Albert is a tough man, focused on playing hard, but not unkind. You did not recall this bit of positive news in some earlier posts, so readers do not get this fuller perspective about Pujols.
In your life, you have changed your own managerial philosophies through time. That may make a lot of sense, but TLR may have other views and they may be defensible too, in their differing context. One philosophical approach may not fit all situations. So I am just suggesting its good to kind of ease into understanding the Cardinals, because sometimes early impressions can change.
Here is another example. It may be a little too simple to say that Rolen did not like the system. Rolen played most everyday. He fell out with the Cards in 2005-7, for reasonable reasons. In 05, they had him playing with a bum shoulder instead of getting an operation. He had a real beef. In 2006, TLR came down unfairly on him. In 2007, TLR was hard on him again and Rolen wanted out; Mo understood and honored the request to be traded. But this summer, Rolen stopped by TLR’s office to say no hard feelings.
Jim Edmonds got along well with TLR, but wanted out in 2008, because the Cards had too many players and his playing time was going to be cut back with advancing years. So it may not be correct to assume that Edmonds did not like the system.
Kennedy did not play well in 2007, so he had to be platooned; he had a disappointing year, not sure why. It was ho-hum in 2008. Whether AK liked the system or not does not matter, we felt obliged to platoon him and then to give him a fully paid opportunity to pursue his career elsewhere. Kennedy did not suffer from this and in fact took a good look in the mirror, woke up, and had a great year.
In reality, am I confident that the Cards are unusually broken apart with unhappy factions? Do lots of players dislike the system? I am not so sure.
I do know a young man who had a constructive but not sensational season at AAA was given a berth on the 2009 roster, after Skip got moved and Kennedy released, to make room for him. TLR found ways to get him playing time and by the end of the year, he had earned the CF job on a full time basis. I have recently learned Albert Pujols gave his team-mate a watch and the gift was appreciated. Its great Matt Holliday re-signed and is willing to find a way to fit in with TLR’s system. Matt says he hopes the Cards can get Albert re-signed and he is looking forward to their playing together. The future is looking ok.
Maybe Albert figured Colby needed some toughening up. I’d imagine CR has always been something special whatever team he’s been on, and the circumstances of his arrival at Busch was sorta the same. If that’s right, then Albert’s right, the young man had to be snapped out of it. Otherwise the real world, the meen streets would eat him alive. Colby wouldn’t have got the watch if he hadn’t earned it. Albert wouldn’t give a watch to a boy. If he’d been traded chances are RC would have had to follow him around his whole career, keeping him in watches. Good thing that didn’t happen. If my hunch is right, by about the end of June RC will know that his son doesn’t need his help anymore, and more importantly CR will know it too. From then on, RC, it will be the son who comes around to help the father, maybe work up the nerve to give you a pointer on managing that team of yours. I expect that will be a proud moment for you. It was for me.
Regarding Rasmus, he has a lot to look forward to. He got rushed up through the minors, the Cards jettisoned Kennedy to make room. He gained a lot of experience and ended up winning the job in CF. In the playoffs, he stepped it up and made plays. He is a valued member of the team with a bright future. He may get grossly overpaid in the years ahead, for his skills. I hope he finds ways of himself to those many in this world who are less fortunate.
Is TLR and the system a problem? Its not clear that it has been. TLR is probably happy to usher a promsing player into the ML fraternity. Someday Tony can brag and talk a lot of hot air about Rasmus while at the winery in Sonoma. Is the Clubhous atmosphere lousy? Matt Holliday sure does not think so. Does it matter if Pujols is outgoing toward Latin players? No, thats ok, they need friends too, like everyone does.
Alls well that ends well!!!!
So let it go Jumbo…………. move on to a different subject.
With McCoy out Texas is getting stomped. New guy QB looks bad.
Wind chill to 30 below in StL tonight.
Mo on radio today said those who claim the Cards had no competition and overpaid are wrong. Said he was competing against taking a one year deal with money team and trying the market again next year. Said team can pay both MH and AP, and the rotation, but pressure would be on Luhnow to keep up streem of cheap supporting cast. (my words summarizing gist of it) Said no big boppers in pipeline right now.
So if we have a latino mentor and a mainlander mentor, where does that leave Lohse, one of the three native americans in the bigs. He is a member of the Nomlaki tribe which was/is indiginous to the central valley of California north of Sacramento. Jacoby Elsbery is a Navajo, and Joba Chamberlain a Winnebago.
Speaking of Elsbery, a while back I had reason to peruse a list of victims of financial scammer Sir Allen Stanford. I noticed some pro athletes and the four MLB players I happenned to nitice were Elsbery, Damon, Nady and Pelfrey. It has recently occurred to me what those four guys have in common (other than getting screwed by Stanford).
BB, this is one of the greatest coaching failures I’ve ever witness. Alabama defies logic. If they lose this game, it will become legendary.
You just don’t like coaches is all, Westy. New guy QB is burning it up.
I bet heavily on Alabama………..they better cover. I’m not going to talk about what a bad bet that was………even though it payed.
Check out Scottie here……………man that guy can BS.
http://www.101espn.com/post/32455_the_fast_lane_show_note_thursday_1710/audio
Jumbo, did you spend the entire Bama victory writing me a lecture? I’ve written two or three things trying to make you feel good about life again so relax. You won’t be able to teach me anything tonight, I’m too busy celebrating the continued SEC dominance over college football.
WC , The Tide took a page out of Auburns playbook tonight. Get ahead and then run he ball 3 times and punt the rest of the night. It almost bit them.
Jumbo, I’d play for the Taliban bombsquad for 120 million bucks and Matt will be the new Albert so what would Matt have to worry about. He makes more money than Albert. Matt is that bigger name on the other line. Did you watch the press conference? Talks about how he is a team guy and wants to be part of a comfortable situation. He sounded almost derek Jeterlike yet again
The name of the game is wins and a combo of Albert and Matt will be a really good duo for two years at least, hopefully more. Like I said Matt will force Albert to up his game in every possible way which is good for the players who play for the cardinals. We’ve beaten this topic to death so lets just be happy that We have both Matt and Albert and call it a day
Havn’t seen too many shuttle passes get picked off.
Wow!
I haven’t been around here much lately but this thread is an all-timer. I expected to read about Brian writing a post debating a point i had made, then deleting it, making me the winner of that discussion without even having to respond but instead I’m confronted with some sort of seance involving mind readers, gossips, tattletales and who knows what other sorts.
Great thread! I’ll celebrate with a second (okay third) Jack Daniel’s.
An interesting point RC……………it was pointed out how rigidly Sabean controlled his team in LA. I couldn’t believe the play calling. Sounded a little like your earlier point about your HS playoff experiences………..They were wound tight……..especially the coaches…….. If Texas doesn’t lose it QB, they win by three touchdowns. Alabama would have simple blew up…………………. 1 senior QB, and then a freshman? Lord………. I bet Alabama because of the way they contained Florida QB. Sometimes its better to be lucky than smart.
It was tipped BB.
Another data point. TLR believes the Cards would have won the division without the trade, though it would have been much closer: link.
Taking that informed guesstimate at face value would mean that Holliday has yet to deliver a bottom line return.
I hope they have him shagging flys.