Can the St. Louis Cardinals learn anything from a dissection of the New York Yankees’ 2008 pursuit of Mark Teixeira?
One of this week’s prevailing storylines regarding free agent Matt Holliday is the supposed “mystery bidder” who will swoop in and whisk the outfielder away from the patiently-waiting St. Louis Cardinals to his new home for the next five to eight years.
While teams like the Mets and Orioles have been linked to the 29-year-old, neither of their offers, if even made, seem to be in the range of the Cardinals’ bid to retain him.
The fear is that the mystery team is none other than the club with the deepest pockets of all – New York Yankees. This is the feeling despite the fact that not only have the Bombers expressed a lack of interest in Holliday, word from their camp is that they will not be engaging. As recently as two days ago, ESPN reported the Yankees “cannot see a situation in which they will become involved” with Holliday.
Few in the Cardinal Nation apparently believe the reports, their fear fueled by general, but deep-seated distrust of the Yankees and a revisionist view of the events of one year ago. At that time, first baseman Mark Teixeira, late of the Angels, was being hotly pursued by his old club as well as the Red Sox, Nationals and Orioles.
As the yarn goes, the Yankees feigned disinterest virtually until the day Teixeira’s signing with New York was announced… and so it will occur again with Holliday.
I didn’t remember the chain of events occurring in that manner, so went back to news reports from last winter. While it is true that at least one point, it seemed Teixiera was very close to joining the Red Sox, and there were zigs, zags and apparently incorrect rumors along the way, the basic fact is that the Yankees’ interest in the first baseman had been long-reported.
Here is a partial timeline summarizing press accounts of the Yankees’ courting of Tex. Again, it is far from the full set of rumors regarding the player. It is the only the subset I could locate that mentions New York specifically.
Note how the level of activity and the timeline differ from 2009.
- December 7, 2008: The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports Yankees general manager Brian Cashman met with Teixeira and his agent Scott Boras at Baseball’s Winter Meetings on December 5.
- December 10: Bryan Hoch of MLB.com reports the Yankees’ interest in Teixeira has waned after their signing of C.C. Sabathia.
- December 11: SI.com’s Jon Heyman reports the Yankees have entered the sweepstakes for Teixeira.
- December 15: The New York Post reports that Manny Ramirez would be a fallback option for the Yankees if they do not sign Teixeira.
- December 15: Lyle Spencer of MLB.com reports the Yankees have turned their attention to Teixeira and are interested in signing him.
- December 17: Spencer reports the Yankees have not made an offer or a proposal to Teixeira.
- December 18: George King III of the Post reports that the Yankees were not the team to outbid the Red Sox for Teixeira. “Not us,” was the response from Cashman when contacted by the paper.
- December 22: Kevin Kernan of the Post reports the Yankees have had serious discussions with Boras but have yet to make a contract offer.
- December 22: Buster Olney and Peter Gammons of ESPN.com report the Yankees made an initial offer to Teixeira but then withdrew their bid because it was not close to other teams’ offers.
- December 23: Teixeira’s agreement in principle with the Yankees is announced.
Does the above timeline preclude New York from going after Holliday? Of course not, but it does illustrate that they are being far more stealthy in 2009 if they want Holliday than they were in 2008 with Teixeira.
With Tex, Cashman met with both the player and agent at the Winter Meetings and while the club focused on signing Sabathia first, their interest was reported regularly during the 18 days between the face-to-face meeting and the announcement.
Bottom line, while it was a surprise when the Yankees wrested Teixeira away from the Red Sox, their genuine interest in the player should not have been news to anyone who was paying attention. At least as of yet, the reports about the Yankees and Holliday in 2009 have been just the opposite.
Footnote: Boras may have a very good reason to step lightly with New York regarding Holliday. Incumbent left fielder Johnny Damon, also a Boras client, is reportedly demanding $13 million per season to return to the Yankees while the club is unwilling to go above $10 million. Number of years may also be an issue.
Like Holliday with the Cardinals, at this point, Damon seems to have only one team openly interested in his services. So even if Boras can somehow manage to hook the Yankees with Holliday, he creates another problem in the process, having to start over finding a new home for Damon. It may not be an easy task to interest another taker in the past-his-prime 36-year-old at a price anywhere near the amounts being discussed.
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Looks like the Johnson contract is happening. Looks like Boras is upset.(Act) The Yanks have dragged Damon’s contract around for years. It might well have been a PR move to string a WS hero along for a while. Isn’t it better to blame Boras’ demands as opposed to the reality that he is “way” past his prime. Wouldn’t Boras’ show of emotion be a great cover for “other” activities. All these activities have become part of the game because of revenue imbalances, Free Agency, evolution of the Super Agent, Twitter, rapid response journalism…..etc.
We will have to see how it plays out, but Boras may end up getting the most money for his players (and therefore himself of course) by keeping both Damon and Holliday home. An unusual situation when Boras clients don’t switch teams. As I recall, Lohse, Varitek and Manny (the last time) are the only ones from a list of about 25 of his most recent free agents. Each of the three was a bit of a unique situation.
Good article. If teams are not bidding on Holliday, its because they do not have the appetite for long term big deals, in this economy.
Matsui helped the Bombers win a WS, and they dumped him. Teams look forwards, not backwards. No big reason for the Yanks to want Damon either. Johnson is a much cheaper roster add. The Yanks spent last winter and may be retrenching a little. They are cutting back subway service in the Big Apple. New York State is broke.
The Angels signing Matsui was also good news in that they should be less likely to want Holliday for themselves.
Arte Moreno, the Angels owner, flat out said recently that his team will not be signing Holliday. He is reportedly still angry over how Boras handled the Teixeira negotiations last winter. When doing the above research, I saw a Moreno quote from last year when his team bowed out, saying he didn’t want to drive up the price for other teams when it seemed clear Tex was not coming back anyway. I like his way of doing business.
I recall reading that the Mets put a serious block on the Phillies concerning Lohse, then left Boras hanging with it after 2007. Boras got even with them by forcing the 3/36 Perez deal. It worked out for Lohse, but what a tough year for Boras. The guy is a great analyzer. You can bet he is pointing out the Red Sox likely strategy to the Yankees, if they aren’t well aware. Our only hope with Holiday is that the Yankees hang Boras up till the Red Sox pass the point of no return, then let Holiday slide away………….. but I still contend they don’t really want him………..unless they know Pujols is headed east.
The Mets almost have to sign Jason Bay. After a dreadful year, the Mets need to do something.
But even the Mets do not want to spend more money than they have to spend, or they would be after Holliday. The Mets are said to be $65MM/4 on Bay, but might do 5 years, maybe at $75MM.
Since the Cards have offered 5 years to Holliday and might go longers, its hard to know what other team has the stomach for bidding. The reason Mo is sitting tight and not moving on is because he too does not know where a higher bid is going to come from. No reason to bid against yourself. The current market for Holliday may be 5/$80MM.
The problem is Boras wants to help define the top of the market for the MLPA. He has an onus to try to get top dollar for the wage scale when he has a top talent, like Matt. But in this crummy economy, the Cards may be the biggest bid, so Boras may have to accept, if no one else arises. And it beats me who that would be.
Baseball is a grueling game. 162 games over 6 months. 10′s of thousands of miles of travel.
Mets baseball ………….times 10. They take away the players belts and shoe strings at night. No sharp objects. There are only the 10 caret diamond earrings of Carlos Delgado to remind them why the suffer.
I’m glad you guys are coming around. The money people back East understand economics. Who wants to buy up a long term supply of something which is not likely to increase in value due to a flat market? Especially when there is a chance it may go to seed before you use it all up. A flat market does not subsidize the purchase today of a service to be provided in the future. They teach that at Harvard business school. As I’ve mentioned before, Holliday is worth more to the Cards than to anyone else because A) They need to provide Albert unequivocable proof of committment to win, and B) After spending megabucks to sign Albert they want to get the most bang for those bucks, which will not happen without a stud behind him in the order. It is the convergance of those two factors which leads to MH staying right where he is. Boras, like a lot of real estate types, can’t admit to themselves that a significant part of their success has been due to a high flying market rather than exceptional ability, and absent that market those same successes are not attainable. Come on Westy, buy in.
When you are far, appear to be near; and when you are near, appear to be far away…….this is the art of deception……this is the art of war. Sun Tzu, 6th Century B.C.
Your faith deserves recognition BB. Teams are learning the tricks usually by the burns on their fingers. When everyone recognizes the hot stove, rules change. Tactics refine.
Pujols commercial marketability may exceed his baseball value. Who knows if Albert’s agents aren’t solely focused on their percentage of his image used in advertising in a large market. A-Rods contract had huge amounts of money tied up along those lines. The variables are mind bending. The Yankees spent 400 million to focus that crap they played with last year. They got rid of a bunch of bad contracts. They would love to snuff out the Red Sox……………. how will they do that? They can get Holiday for 6/120 and have no competition, the way they’ve went about this. They will have saved 40 million with their tactics. Boras can’t raise the bar because everyone knows or sees the futility. Sun Tzu had his binoculars backward……..and he’s dead.
PS There is every indication that Albert’s agents are trying to avoid any scapegoating by the Cardinals. Their best scenario is Albert reaching FA. He won’t make the mistakes he made in 09 by shooting off his mouth about his needs or DeWitt’s obligations. He learned his lesson. The trip to Birmingham had more significance than is obvious. If he just shuts up. They can’t screw with him until it too late.
Pujols has so far rejected overtures from the Cardinals to discuss a contract extension. Pujols has insisted the club should focus on retooling its roster for next season rather than address his deal, which runs through 2011.
Pujols also has consistently stated since February that the team’s direction will factor in his considering an extension. Describing Pujols as the greatest player in the game, Boras cited those comments when linking the two players.
Said Lozano: “We’ve made it clear on numerous occasions that the most important thing to Albert is that the Cardinals are committed to putting a competitive, contending club on the field. That’s it.”
More garbage from Strauss. Albert has every right to be silent. The front office is pressuring Strauss to make this connection to Albert again. Its not about players, or competitive baseball. This behavior is why Albert wants out of here. We need DeRosa for more reasons than left field. Like third base. Offer him 2/12. We need him. They won’t get close to 100 million at this rate. But that is the idea. ” We stalled because we were just trying to please Albert”. “Now look what happened”. We can’t find a fit.”……………….That is so weak……………..We need another arm. Why not Smoltz. That team can deal with the division, even without Holiday. But, if they make those moves………..Holiday might just fall in their lap, and then what? They will reach 91 miil because they have to pay back 9 to the Lugo kitty.
The Cards made last minute noises about wanting to retain Aaron Miles, but of course let him go to the Cubs.
Its the same situation with DeRosa. They should let DeRosa go where-ever he can collect the most bucks. DeRosa is over-rated from having enjoyed media exaggeration in Chicago. He is 35, with slippage ahead.
There will be a bunch of players available for huge bargain discounts come January. Too many players in search of too few dollars.
Interesting Jeff Passan story about Boras on Yahoo. A hero worship piece that pities the poor Cardinals for having to deal with the negotiating genius that is Boras.
I especially love the closing where he warns the Cardinals that if they stand firm, it could end up like when Texas did that with Barry Zito. The mystery bidder, the Giants, did exist and paid far more for Zito, leaving the holding-firm Rangers with nothing but $102 million unspent.
Passan skirts the point that Zito’s contract is one of the very worst in baseball history and has shackled the Giants ever since. Here is hoping the Cardinals come in second with Holliday if that is the best example of a real Boras “mystery bidder” that can be cited.
The Cards seem to calculate a price range for a player and not excede it. If some other team wants to pay Holliday $20MM/yr for 7 years, they are welcome to sign him.
Boras is no negotiating genius. Thats just his spin to gullible reporters.
I wonder if Boras’ ego would mean he takes a retaliatory stance if he is forced with a take-it-or-leave-it decision, even if “leaving it” would be the poorer business move? In other words, if it came down to it, would saving face be more important to Boras than getting the highest sure-dollar deal for his client?
We may never know…
Boras is probably after the top dollar for his individual clients.
OTOH, there has to be plenty of room for discretion spread across multiple clients and years. The Cards assume they will be doing business with any given agent on a long-term basis, so its good to be professionally cordial in business dealings and not get too excited about any specific one.
Another confirmation that Baltimore is not interested, from the Baltimore Sun. Apparently, they are not on Boras’ speed dialer…
“On Thursday, a team official shot down a report that the Orioles are pursuing St. Louis Cardinals slugger Matt Holliday, who the club believes would be too costly to acquire…”
That was rich Westy, binoculars backward, loved it. I thought I was being profound.
In the past rejecting a take-it-or-leave-it has had little risk.
I like the idea of trying to sign DeRosa for 2/12. Unless he’s blowing smoke about wanting to come back. If need be, Mo could do a salary dumping trade or two later on.
I think Colby will start in center 162 times unless he asks for a day off. If he lets something beside lack of opportunity to play stand in his way it tells us what we need to know.
Damon is going to take a hit curtesy Scottie’s ego, and his own.
bb, Damon is a fool if he believes any Boras bluster that he can do better than two years, $20 million anywhere other than NY. What a totally ridiculous move to say “if you aren’t going to offer at least $13 million per year, don’t even make an offer”? What arrogance! Saw today that NY press thinks the Giants might be interested in Damon. Are they baseball’s retirement home or what?
Question still remains who will be the Yanks’ left fielder to replace Damon, since the New Yorkers apparently told Boras and Damon to take a hike. They equate new DH Nick Johnson to Damon’s replacement as it appears the latter is no longer considered to be a suitable left fielder at age 36. Wonder if they have a DH in San Fran? TLR had better get Selig’s committee moving in a hurry…
(Edit: Never mind. I forgot I am talking about the team that stationed a cardboard cutout of Barry Bonds out there in left for several years.)
Buster Olney says Yanks next steps after locking up Johnson are to add another starting pitcher and perhaps Mark DeRosa if the price is right. Guess he would be their LF. Not a bad move as it appears they can get Johnson + DeRosa for less than Damon alone. Boras may be overplaying his hands all over this off-season.
Had a boss once who quoted Sun Tzu often. Had us all read “The Art of War”. Fortunately, he was eventually taken down by friendly fire. Apparently, his enemies got a little too close.
Bling said “I think Colby will start in center 162 times unless he asks for a day off. If he lets something beside lack of opportunity to play stand in his way it tells us what we need to know.”
This is very true. If he is given equal time verses LH and RH pitching I feel secure in saying if he doesn’t produce good numbers the cards should cut his sorry butt loose because he will not be the player that I believe him to be. 150 starts should be Colby’s hope.
Deception can cut both ways I guess.
Wouldn’t it be a conflict of interest to represent two players vying for the same job. If Boras where to slide MH in there, Damon should suspect he’s been bent over. Especially once he realizes 2/20 was top of market. Johnny could just go back to KC for the minimum and live off the settlement. That would be Oh so sweet.
Damon is old news while Holliday is seven years younger and still shiny new, with many more years of commissions ahead.
Boras conversation with Damon overheard: “Sorry, Johnny, I gave it my best. It’s all the Steinbrenners’ fault. They won’t show you the same respect as Jeter and A-Rod. We showed them, didn’t we? San Fran is really a nice place, though. Just ask Barry Zito. Oops, gotta go. Holliday is on line two. I’ll be back to you, honest…”
IIRC, the Giants aren’t the only team to have played cardboard cut outs in the outfield
I actually thought Chris Duncan was credible to his left and right. His problems seemed to be on balls straight at him either requiring him to come in or go back. That and refusing to catch even easy fly balls with two hands. His coaching has to be at least partially responsible for that…
Very charitable of you Brian. I’ll remember it that way too, then. By the way, if you hear anything about Chris please pass it along. He always carried himself well and I commend his hard work, I hope he regains health and hooks up with somebody. Our other origami outfielder seems to be getting a few looks, best wishes there too.
You guys are so sweet. Damon was put down humanely in the traditional Boras fashion. Scottie’s high demand taking the blame. He earns his money that way. By taking the hit himself, he distracts teams away from noticing the Grey hair on Damon’s balls. He will find him a job somewhere. The lack of blood here suggests a more intimate relationship with the Yankees than we’d like to see. Unfortunately.
For those that have a hard time penetrating the cryptic styling of the WCBW;
the only thing established about Johnnie boy Damon in all this, is that the Yankee’s thought he was still worth 2/10…….and that he thought he was so fast, (stole two bases with a single blow) and was also a famous clutch WS rbi producer, that he is still worth 3/33…………. All the rest was show. The hook is baited………….Yankees were players in the most humane way.
That’s less cryptic? It could be that the only thing established is that the Yankees knew Boras would reject 2/10. They know him well. Use his ego and overconfidence against him.
2/20 that is
WC wrote, ” By taking the hit himself, he distracts teams away from noticing the Grey hair on Damon’s balls”
And what a visual that is. By the way, Johnny is a man of the new kids on the block generation, they shave their balls I’m sure. No grey hairs there
You guys are disturbed.
BB………….Johnnie D. went on to call the Yanks the greatest ORG. he has played for. Don’t get caught up in the fog surrounding Count Scottie.
Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr……………………..you could do it the Cardinal way……… David Ecstein…….. and have articles and tears pouring for years on his mistreatment. The Yankee offer was never on paper. Never………… it was a courtesy by experienced illusionists, thats all.
You think Boras fished the 180 out of the Yankees and they had no clue? It was Scottie’s job to establish the price. He did……….160 with the Sox……..and then NY paid it. Same scenario with Holiday me thinks. Cardinals are loving it……………they knew this would happen. They were counting on it.
Sorry RC. I just got out of the shower.
Ever since my beloved team had dismissed itself from postseason play, I’ve been a silent, sullen observer of all the proceedings in Brian Walton’s news and commentary on the St. Louis Cardinals and their minor league system. At the age of 61, I feel like an adolescent having been allowed to witness the discussions of ageless sages who deign to help me to navigate through an ugly world of cut-throats and rapists. Throughout my adult life, I’ve been repeatedly disillusioned with the discoveries that there are no Perry Masons remaining in the Legal profession and no Marcus Welbys remaining in the Medical profession. In the manner that Satan fans the flames of a man’s prurient interests and wicked impulses, a baseball agent (like Boras) descends upon a player. In the end, after years of developing his skills and his character, if the player does not become tainted or ruined, he becomes as evil as the agent who had manipulated him! Indeed, you ageless sages are teaching me that there are no Stan Musials remaining in the sport of my heart! Damn you, damn me, damn them or damn it all?
Its just a game 57………a complex game I must agree. The wealth expressed in the players salaries is a convenience……….not a teacher of wisdom. It is an uncommon lifestyle I would guess. It unmakes more players that have enjoyed it than it has enhanced. If they were paid a foreman’s wage and Hot Dogs were a 25 cents, tickets a buck……..there wouldn’t be so many things to damn.
Jesus did good work in sandals and a simple robe. The Pope……………….he gave you hell to make a dollar………………………….if you were an owner, would you take 25% of 100$ or 200.000.000$. They chose.
CFS57, this winter too shall pass. The first spring training game is less than 75 days away. In the interim, please remain in the discussions and improve your outlook. You are always welcome!
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-cubs-marinerstrade&prov=ap&type=lgns
Now this is good new 57…………………… Silva will lose the cubs a bundle of games. So as not to take a loss, they take poison. Amazing.
Yeah, I’m not sure what they’re hoping to do with Silva.
Hi 57. I don’t let the big numbers and greed get to me much any more. I think of it as owners and players playing around with monopoly money. Have at it. What gets to me is when the Brocks and the Gibbys sell off their momentos. And jack-asses like Manny. Hope you stick around, we’ll cheer you up.
The P-D has an article up now proposing that DeRosa and Holliday could both be shoehorned into the budget. DeRosa is such a good fit if he’d take a limited role. Schu could sit against lefties. Freese would have to fish or cut bait. Bat off the bench. Friend in need. Maybe the soft market has him re-thinking that whole Japan thing. Go for it Mo.
Westie, Pujols undoubtedly has markets that would give him more marketing value than STL but to suggest that his marketing value outweighs his baseball value seems unlikely. ARod is the highest paid baseball endorser at $7 million annually (Pujols reportedly make $3 million currently). Given their personalities, I cant see Pujols making more than ARod in this area.
I dont think Boras will lose face on Holliday. My guess is there are several teams who would consider him in the $16 million area, particularly if it was a short deal. The short deal will be how Boras saves face as he’ll spin it on how this allows his client to cash in even bigger in a few years.
If Holliday decides to take $16 per, Mo will sign him tomorrow.
That’s my point BB. I dont think by turning down the Cards at $16 per Boras is risking much.
CC, misunderstood your post. You’re right of course. The risk is only in having to take a shorter deal if the Cards move on, and he can spin it as you say. I hadn’t thought of that. Damn. I hope he gets a lump of coal for Christmas. I hope his wife snores and has bad breath.
57, the off-season wranglings between agents and teams is not uplifting to the soul, but can be somewhat interesting.
Its good news the Cards reached agreement with Penny. They re-signed LaRue too.
Holliday and Boras are tough to lasso. There may be an agreement someday, but they are in no rush. I am relaxed about it too. It would be great if Holliday re-signs, the Cards are giving him a great offer, but if he goes elsewhere, it would be his choice and we will just have to move on.