Lost in all the excitement over the Monday announcement of the election of Whitey Herzog to Baseball’s Hall of Fame and the outrage of former union chief Marvin Miller missing out again was a defeat for the history of the St. Louis Cardinals.
The Veterans Committee for Executives and Pioneers was unable to agree on a single name from their candidate list of ten. In the process, they left behind another most deserving man along with Miller, the late owner of the Cardinals, Sam Breadon.
Being named on nine of 12 (75 percent) of the ballots was necessary. Voters were instructed to vote for up to four names.
Here are the results:
- John Fetzer, Detroit (eight votes, 66.7%)
- Marvin Miller, players union (seven votes, 58.3%)
- Jacob Ruppert, Yankees (seven votes, 58.3%)
- Ewing Kauffman, Royals (six votes, 50%)
- Fewer than three votes, less than 25%: Gene Autry, Breadon, Bob Howsam, John McHale, Gabe Paul and Bill White.
Breadon’s showing was especially disappointing since the 12 voters included two with deep Cardinals knowledge – Rick Hummel of the Post-Dispatch and club chairman Bill DeWitt.
The other committee members included Hall of Fame players Robin Roberts and Tom Seaver; former executive John Harrington (Red Sox); current executives Jerry Bell (Twins), Bill Giles (Phillies), David Glass (Royals), Andy MacPhail (Orioles) and John Schuerholz (Braves); and media veterans Hal McCoy (Dayton Daily News) and Phil Pepe (New York Daily News).
Breadon and others may receive another chance in two years. The two Veterans Committees that vote on managers and umpires as well as executives and pioneers will consider candidates again in 2011 for 2012 induction. The bar is high, with fewer than a dozen owners currently enshrined.
Perhaps it is because I just wrote about retired numbers and still disagree over the related decision to honor Gussie Busch in that manner, but I decided to make a quick comparison of the owners, Breadon and Busch, along with the current group under DeWitt. They make up the longest-tenured and most dominant of the seven different Cardinals owners in the club’s recognized history starting in 1892.
I recognize that the Hall of Fame is different from retired number recognition, but that backdrop seems an interesting introduction to their respective legacies.
| Owner | Years | Won | Loss | Win rate | NL pennants | NL pennant % | WS champs | WS % |
| Breadon | 31 | 2657 | 2061 | 0.563 | 9 | 29.0% | 6 | 19.4% |
| Busch | 43 | 3477 | 3280 | 0.515 | 6 | 14.0% | 3 | 7.0% |
| DeWitt | 14 | 1232 | 1034 | 0.544 | 2 | 14.3% | 1 | 7.1% |
(Three losing years are included under Breadon during which he was a minority investor and there was no majority owner. Busch’s years include the six following Augie’s death when the brewery ran the team.)
As the above table indicates, Breadon’s Cardinals teams not only had the highest regular season winning percentage, they also collected the most National League pennants and World Championships. Not only that, but when Breadon’s club made the Series, they won 2/3 of the time as opposed to half the time for the others.
I added percentage columns as an equalizer. Breadon’s clubs took the NL crown twice as frequently as during the other two ownership tenures and the ultimate prize almost three times as often. (For more information about Breadon, check out this article, “Breadon among deserving Hall of Fame candidates”.)
As an aside, note the striking post-season similarities between the Busch and DeWitt regimes, though the current owners have a better regular season mark.
Bottom line, Sam Breadon appears to have solid Hall of Fame credentials, and based on results is more deserving of special recognition from the game of baseball than Busch.
Fair points, but don’t forget that in Breadon’s day, there were many fewer teams competing for those NL pennants.
In other news, Lindstrom? The Astros never cease to crack me up.
Whether you play one different team or 20, you still have to win the most games to finish in first, right? (at least pre-wild card)
Houston should give Pittsburgh a run for last place.
Bush to Brewers…………………..I wonder who they’re looking to beat.
Breadon deserves more but remember he benefited from Branch Rickey’s chain gang of talent and also WWll.
What a travesty making Marvin Miller wait again.
Gussie was onje of the first to integrate the hotels with black and white players.
I remember the brewery years as being a downer, do you think it would have been any better with Gussie running the team then? I know Whitey Herzog was pretty chagrined when the brewery took over.
Most people would agree tho that Gussie kinda blew his legacy in one of baseball’s biggest blunders, getting rid of Carlton and Reuss out of spite, for basically one good year of Rick Wise, forget Scipio Spinks.
As Bob Gibson said “It is virtually impossible to count the pennants that were kissed goodbye”.
Plus at that time the Phillies (where Carlton landed) were in the same Division as the Redbirds.
Later it was Keith Hernandez.
Is there somewhere with an actual list of owners W-L records?
Breadon benefited from Rickey and so did Gussie by having Red. All successful owners had to have good management and players. Cards had some WWII benefit due to farm system but all teams lost players due to war. Cards also won in 1946 when everyone was home. I get tired of that being used to devalue their 1940s success. It took the HOF far too long to get Billy Southworth inducted for that very reason, I suspect (end of rant).
I get that the brewery boys wanted to kiss Gussie’s behind but it frosts me every time I see #85 on that outfield wall. He was a good enough owner, but not that good.
No, there is no list of owners W-L records anywhere I have seen. I put it all in a spreadsheet and will summarize for you shortly.
It will be interesting to see Gussie’s record without the brewery years, if possible.
Yeah all the teams had to make do during the war but didn’t Musial only miss one season 1945?
Terry Moore missed three which was a big hole to fill, Enos Slaughter missed three, but the Cards had pretty good pitching thruout and Musial, Marion, W. Cooper, Kurowski for most of the war years.
Probably similar to other teams dealing with players in various armed services.
I don’t think the war years should detract from Breadon’s HOF chances, would suggest that it helps his record compared to Gussie Busch. But really it is the Cardinals extensive farm system that gives Breadon an edge and he (Breadon)was paying the bills ( ; > )
Breadon’s record is even more impressive since the Cardinals didn’t win anything before 1926.
thanks for the table of owners records Brian !
It really doesn’t matter much to break it out. Gussie gets four-tenths of one percent better.
Before Breadon came in 1917, the Cards had 24 second-division finishes in 25 years, with one third-place showing. Perennial doormats.
One of the things about revisiting a guy from long ago is that it is the perception that has changed, not the reality. Over the years, people with more intimate knowledge than we have today didn’t seem to share the sentiment expressed in the article, apparently. Maybe its just the numbers and the warm fuzzy stuff we remember now. For example, the less than warm and fuzzy aspects of Gussie’s tenure are probably not what will be talked about a few decades from now. Folks then will envision the friendly old gentelman riding around in the beer wagon to the cheers of the fans. Whenever the old timers committe decides to do something that wasn’t done before, I wonder how much stuff that used to be know to the contemporaries has been lost over the years. This isn’t to say Breadon’s not worthy, only that perhaps those who were there should be given some credit.
Now the Astros sign Pedro Feliz. Way to strive for overpriced mediocrity, boys!
Nut, I can’t tell if Lindstrom and Feliz are a good deal or not, I’ll take your word on it, but I can’t see where $5M a year for Lyon makes any kind of sense for a team that says money is tight. Surely they could get more bang for the buck someplace besides a middle relief guy.
I like Lyon better than the other two, and he could certainly end up closing over Lindstrom sooner or later, but yeah, he’s also clearly overpriced.
Feliz was fortunate enough to pull his OBP over .300 last season, but three straight seasons of HR decline last saw him post 12. Third basemen who can’t hit are rather pointless.
Re blingboy : ‘whenever the old timers committe decides to do something that wasn’t done before, I wonder how much stuff that used to be know to the contemporaries has been lost over the years. This isn’t to say Breadon’s not worthy, only that perhaps those who were there should be given some credit.’;
I think important to keep in mind the HOF not started until 1936 and during the early time had to review about 40 previous years of MLB players to sift before moving on to executives. For early part of HOF emphasis (and I think rightly) was being sure the right players got in, and then as that was done then could look to other categories (e.g., owners). At time of S. Breadon’s 1947 sale think emphasis still very much on selection of players and think ‘old timers’ well aware of S. Breadon’s contributions but their focus at time was on players. Had S. Breadon’s teams accomplished what they he did, say, in 30 years from 1960 – 1990 versus 1917 – 1947, think he is in the HOF no question. Cardinals’ tradition is great and think Sam Breadon presided over a fascinating and very important era of Cardinals’ baseball and, given Cardinals place in MLB, think he should be in HOF. For those thirty years he was the most successful owner in MLB, and think that he stood the test of time. All the best.
Welcome, amorgos44! Nice first post… and not just because you agree with me, though that is good, too…
Thanks Brian W. I think you make a very good case for Sam Breadon. All the best.
I am not a big Breadon fan.
He was the primary reason that Rickey left. Sam cut the pay of all of Rickey’s non-field support people in the late 30′s while the team paid out a dividend and made a million dollars (big sum then). Rickey told Sam that he would dig ditches for a dollar a day before he would ever work for him again after his contract expired. The Cardinals stopped signing top players during the remainder of Rickey’s time. They passed on Yogi Berra (for $500) and Ted Williams (for $10,000).
Rickey also started selling players such as Johnny Mize, Ken Raffensberger and Clyde Shoun. Breadon traded away Mort Cooper, Johnny Hopp and Red Barrett and sold Walker Cooper, Ray Sanders and Murray Dickson. Max Lanier’s peak years were lost because of going to the Mexican League. The Cardinals won pennants in 42, 43,44 and 46 but the team deteriorated under Breadon. They finished first or second during the 40′s but Musial in his book was of the opinion that they should have finished first more than 4 times.
He also traded away Preacher Roe.
Excellent example of how perception changes as realities well known to contemporaries are lost to time, and we are left with all those selective memories from which we find fault with the perception of those who were there. I would also note that it is the realities least quantifiable which tend to be lost. There are no stats for the things you say NC.
As an aside, does anybody know whatever happened to a guy named Ron Chandler (I think thats it). Luhnow thought he was a stats wiz-bang that would give him the edge. Maybe he did, this was 5 years or so back, before the 05 draft I think.
I’m told its Shandler not Chandler, and he’s in the fantasy baseball business. So my question is if he still has any relationship with JL and the Cards.
With the depth of their farm system, the Cardinals sold or traded dozens of players, raising several million dollars during the Breadon/Rickey years. That was their business plan, giving them money to keep the system going and the player pipeline open and flowing. I am pretty sure that Rickey controlled those player decisions until he left in 1942 and was motivated by Breadon’s sharing of profits with him. Breadon kept veto power over managerial changes.
Breadon and Rickey were known to be tight-fisted and many players did not like that, nor did they like seeing their peers dealt off. The Cards began to lose their edge when the benefits from their farm system were equalized. There were both internal and external factors involved.
I don’t get the view that Rickey deserves the Hall for his time with the Cardinals but Breadon does not. Breadon sold the team after the 1947 season but the team was World Champs as recently as the year prior. He died in 1948.
When Jeff Luhnow was new in his job, he hired several sabermetric experts as consultants. One was Mitchel Lichtman and another was Ron Shandler, and his firm BaseballHQ. The latter is a friend and fantasy baseball competitor of mine. Shandler’s annual Baseball Forecaster is a very popular and well-read book across baseball. My 2010 copy should be arriving in the mail on Monday.
After a year or two, Jeff had what he needed and took the Cardinals into building their own analytic systems as the consultants contracts expired.
Gussie tried to buy his way to a championship and stumbled around until the 60′s when the Cardinals won in 64, 67 and 68. He fired Devine in 64 and then dismantled the team in the late 60′s and early 70′s in his attempt to win a war with the Players association.
He recovered by hiring Herzog who was perhaps the only one who really got along with him. Just as they got things going Gussie’s age caught up with the team. He began turning things over to brewery management and finally passed away.
The brewery didn’t want the team and let it go to seed.
The major contribution by Gussie was to buy the team. He didn’t really care that much for baseball but realized the value of the team to St. Louis. Fred Saigh was being forced to sell the team because of his legal problems and out of town buyers from Houston and Milwaukee were swooping in.
Bill Veeck, the owner of the Browns was on a campaign to get the Cardinals out of St. Louis but he left town after Busch bought the team.
Sooner, how do you feel about #85 having been retired for Gussie?
Thanks Brian, for some reason I did’t realize it was the Baseball Forcaster guy I was remembering. IIRC, the lack of defensive stats was an issue back then, and JL was wrestling with that. I’m generally aware that sabrmetrics has advanced greatly in the last five years, creating and refining ways to quantify and analyze aspects of the game not subject to it initially. Part of my problem with it is I’m a curmudgeon. Don’t like instant replay and over-ruling the call on the field either. Maybe I just don’t like do-overs, whether its a call just made, or one made long ago.
blingboy – your point is well taken re how do we know better today than what their contemporaries knew but think big reason Sam Breadon is now being considered is the relative late inception of the HOF and it needing to look at and get through previous decades of players for HOF before looking at the other categories. Now the other categories are being examined and think if owners are being looked at and going in think Sam Breadon needs to be given a good look. Also think working against him is perhaps big market bias – if Sam Breadon had been owner with his success in major market (NY, LA, Chicago) then think he is in HOF. Breadon and Rickey had a relationship for approximately 27 years and think Rickey benefited from this (otherwise do not think he would have continued); and, re his ‘ditch digging’ comment, we do not know the context (and / or if this was something to market a book). Breadon / Rickey perhaps tight fisted yes, and 30′s were difficult economic time and think they did what they needed to do to keep Cardinals solvent, as well as have success not matched by anyone else in that era. (And Sam Breadon did care about his players – witness his support of Grover Cleveland Alexander after Alexander’s retirement and challenges.) I think Sam Breadon did a lot right (the record is difficult to ignore, as well as the ‘quietness’ of the Cardinals before and after his ownership), and do not think we have the Cardinals of today if he were not involved (I understand other important contributors, Rickey, et al, but think Sam Breadon is on the list). All the best.
Amorgos44 and SoonerinNC seem both to be very well informed and arrive at differing conclusions. That’s strike one against Sam. BW also is well versed, and his conclusion is in line with 44′s. This gives Breadon 66.67%, not good enough. Perhaps the filter of time needs a bit more……time. My less worthy observation, on the posts, is that the committee had time and inclination to consider and elect Veek, Yawkey even Comisky not that long after the Black Sox, so it might be that 44′s arguement is more of a rationalization as to why the contemporaries did not show equal favor to Sam. As to Brian’s arguement, I would think that statistical success of the team is not decisive in the case of an owner. Wouldn’t Jake Ruppert have to be in ahead of Sam? Lastly, I will not argue with Stan Musial about anything related to baseball . . . even if he hadn’t been there.
Stan was the greatest Cardinals player ever, but doesn’t rank among the top GMs.
If we could agree that a good definition of ‘top’ would be rate of success in winning world series titles, then Stan’s place atop the heap of GM’s will never be exceeded.
blingboy – good points. Think Veeck, Yawkey, and Comiskey benefited from major markets (and did not have the success of Sam Breadon). Think should consider statistical success (and do think case can be made for Jake Ruppert), and also their contributions – Sam Breadon helped save Cardinals from bankruptcy in 1917 and gave solid ownership under his tenure, and real questions if he had not, whether the Cardinals have legacy they have today. Stan Musial is the best always – Cardinals won pennant in ’42, ’43′, ’44, & ’46 (with W.S. wins in ’42, ’43′, ’44, & ’46) and Sam Breadon sold after ’47 and not sure can say the team deteriorated under Breadon – and this may help case for Sam Breadon since they did get quiet after he sold. Think should let the record speak. Breadon had Rickey (and I think vice versa); Joe McCarthy had Babe Ruth / Lou Gehrig; Bill Walsh had Joe Montana; Phil Jackson had Michael Jordan / Kobe). Not a case of revisionism but I think of giving due. If owners are going in then think difficult to not make case for S.B. All the best.
My typo in above – Cardinals won W.S. in ’42, ’44, & ‘ 46 – but not in ’43 (won pennant in ’43 but not W.S.) Sorry for the confusion.
All I really know of Breadon is what I’ve read on this blog. It seems when you consider his turning around a basically dead franchise, winning the pennants he did, and the revolutionizing the game via the farm system he seems worthy.
One context that I don’t have though is how active an owner he was. Was he a Paul Allen (hands off), Mark Cuban (totally hands on) or a Bill Dewitt (somewhere in between). To the extent he was an active owner, the above credits become more noteworthy
Hopefully, SoonerinNC will return with more to keep the snowball from getting out of hand. 44′s big market point is good. I’m almost ready to say that Sam should get in. But as to markets, at least, size matters, so Jake would have to get in first to validate the point.
Carioca – my take on Sam Breadon’s involvement as owner is he was active – not like a Mark Cuban (getting fines for criticising refs, etc.), but very involved. Branch Rickey I think was most noticeable but my sense is that Sam Breadon was active and very inolved with baseball decisions (e..g., trade of Rogers Hornsby after the ’26 W.S.), and certainly business decisions (e.g., farm system). Am not sure why Jake Ruppert is not in (how do Veeck, Yawkey, and Comiskey get in but not Ruppert). Interesting these three are A.L. Do not think NL owners that well represented in HOF – do know that O’Malley (Dodgers) is in (1950 – 1979 – Dodgers had 10 pennants – won 4 W.S. in 29 years ; Breadon’s 9 pennants / 6 W.S. wins in 27 years is comparable to this) – and O;Malley had major market (NY / LA) to get support. I need to check re other NL owners in HOF but think very few.
There’s no precedence with the baseball Hall Of Fame to elect those that are most deserving before lesser players, owners, scribes,umpires. It is what it is and there must be plenty of politics and cronyism that goes into the whole ball of wax.
Sam Breadon deserves it as much as anyone, he helped the franchise become respectable and then legendary, even if it was only because of the rabbit’s foot in his pocket , he was doing something right during three decades of ownership. Hopefully he will get his due sometime soon.
Chief’s ‘politics and cronyism’ made me realize that a certain anti-Yankee sentment and jealousy existed in the day as it does now. This could help explain Ruppert. On another note, the market size idea must consider the relative change in St. Louis’s market size. In the first decade of the 20th cetury it was 4th largest metro area behind NY, Chicago and Philly, and decreased from there.
There is a posibility that if DeWitt presides over a team featuring Pujols and Holliday, Carpenter and Wainwright, for many years, his stock may go up.
blingboy’s comments are well taken re St Louis being a big market early 20th C. Do think with HOF started ’36 their focus was on players and had to make up for lost time for previous 40 years of players (and think then bar was high for players – unless a no brainer a player did not get in); and had to wait some time for other categories – and, Comiskey not withstanding in ’39, this may help explain Ruppert. In the Dec ’09 vote Ruppert got 7 votes and Sam Breadon was with group that got ‘fewer than three votes’ – that could be evidence of market. John Fetzer (Detroit owner ’61 – early ’80′s, AL) got 8 votes and Ewing Kauffman (Royals owner’69 – ’93, AL) got 6 votes in Dec ’09 and I am sure they are good men but not sure why or how they are considered more deserving than Sam Breadon (their combined records do not equal Cardinals’ pennants / ws wins under Breadon. Think NL owners are under represented in HOF and if owners are going in then think have to look at the most successful NL team, and its owner during its most successful period.
bigchief – I thought your comments were well stated and spot on re Hof and Sam Breadon.
I agree wtih amorgos 44, that Sam Breadon is what made Cardinals successful. Growing up in Western Oklahoma learned to love baseball listening to the Cards as they were the only team on our radio.
rufus, welcome!
Rufus, do you remember if you picked up KMOX in the evenings out there, or was it a local station carrying the games. Sam was the owner who hooked up with KMOX. When Saigh took over in 1948 he dropped KMOX and started up some kind of a team owned radio network, which didn’t exactly work out until a couple years later he brought KMOX in as the flagship of the Cardinals radio network. Sounds like DeWitt took his que from the wrong guy. My dad tells of being a G.I. stationed in Greenland and picking up the Cards games clear as can be in the middle of the night.
blingboy, I had always remembered the radio station as KOMA out of Oklahoma City, but now realize it was KMOX. Too long ago. Some nights it was so clear you would have thought you were at the game, others very static, depending on the weather I assume. I rarely watch baseball on tv, but will drive for hours out of my way to listen to a great game on the radio. Still one of the great pleasures of life.
meanwhile, back to Sam Breadon… (just kidding (!); it is all good – actually very good). -:)
I hear you Rufus. I grew up listening first to Harry, then Jack, then Mike. When Shannon’s gone from the broadcast it will be a sad day for me. End of an era going all the way back to my earliest memories. Thanks for the response, best wishes.
blingboy / rufus – that is a great who’s who announcer’s list (the Cardinals do go back and deep imho), and agree quite the act to follow (I have very positive memories of M. Shannon as one of the important Cardinals’ players in the 60′s…) blingboy – i am very impressed with your knowledge and viewpoints. All the best.