With Whitey Herzog’s well-deserved selection to Baseball’s Hall of Fame announced Monday, six of the seven Cardinals managers with the most career wins with the club are or are committed to be in Cooperstown.
The others previously enshrined are Red Schoendienst (as a player), Billy Southworth, Charlie Comiskey (as an executive), Branch Rickey (executive) and Frankie Frisch (player).
The other missing name of course, is the incumbent manager, Tony La Russa, tops on the list with 1,232 franchise victories and counting.
When Joe Torre (ninth in Cardinals managerial victories) and La Russa eventually go in, and both will, nine of the top ten St. Louis managers in terms of wins will be enshrined.
Of the nine present and future Hall of Famers, only La Russa, Herzog and Southworth will have been enshrined primarily due to their results managing the Cardinals.
No matter how you count it, it is an impressive total for an impressive franchise.
Managerial record by wins and Hall of Fame status, St. Louis Cardinals, career
| Rk | Manager | HOF | Inducted | How | As | StL yrs | From | To | Gms | Wins | Losses | Pct |
| 1 | Tony La Russa | lock | Manager | 14 | 1996 | 2009 | 2266 | 1232 | 1034 | 0.544 | ||
| 2 | Red Schoendienst | yes | 1989 | Veterans | Player | 14 | 1965 | 1990 | 1999 | 1041 | 955 | 0.522 |
| 3 | Whitey Herzog | yes | 2010 | Veterans | Manager | 11 | 1980 | 1990 | 1553 | 822 | 728 | 0.530 |
| 4 | Billy Southworth | yes | 2008 | Veterans | Manager | 7 | 1929 | 1945 | 981 | 620 | 346 | 0.642 |
| 5 | Charlie Comiskey | yes | 1939 | Veterans | Executive | 8 | 1883 | 1891 | 852 | 563 | 273 | 0.673 |
| 6 | Branch Rickey | yes | 1967 | Veterans | Executive | 7 | 1919 | 1925 | 947 | 458 | 485 | 0.486 |
| 7 | Frankie Frisch | yes | 1947 | Regular | Player | 6 | 1933 | 1938 | 822 | 458 | 354 | 0.564 |
| 8 | Eddie Dyer | 5 | 1946 | 1950 | 777 | 446 | 325 | 0.578 | ||||
| 9 | Joe Torre | lock | Manager | 6 | 1990 | 1995 | 706 | 351 | 354 | 0.498 | ||
| 10 | Miller Huggins | yes | 1964 | Veterans | Manager | 5 | 1913 | 1917 | 774 | 346 | 415 | 0.455 |
That’s a very interesting way to look at it. Impressive, indeed.
I’m a tiny bit surprised at the 7.5 base salary in the Penny deal. Even heavily insured, its seems seems a bit provocative. If I’m note mistaken, reading the Mo double speak, the Holiday deal is now history. He obviously was exploring Boras for signs of the last scenario I described. His bravado shows that he was attempting to pressure Boras on time constraints if Scottie were in fact be stressed from Matt’s side. Fair game. The only other vet pitcher that might fit the description in the article would be Smoltz. Penny has been pacing himself as a starter. Bet he would make a good closer if he turned it up an inning at a time..
Penny threw a bunch of innings last year, so he showed he could take the ball. Dave Duncan must like him. The Cards must be confident that Pineiro will turn down arbitration. Brad replaces Joel.
Even after trading Chris Perez, its nice to see the Cards have more pitchers with arm strength. Penny is a hard thrower, even though he should lose a few mph as he ages. Jason Motte. Mitch Boggs when a reliever.
Say goodbye to Brad Thompson, hello to Brad Penny.
We might want Holliday, but Penny is the Oklahoman who wants to come to St Louis.
Cool article Brian, the White Rat’s election was not expected by me, but I say
HUZZAH>HUZZAH<HUZZAH !
Mr. Herzog's Cardinal teams are my 2nd most favorite Cardinal era . Particularly the way he put the teams together and the way he managed. Always puzzling how those 80's teams could be so on fire one year and stinko the next. To me it was exciting baseball , putting constant pressure on the opposing nine.
Brian,
cool that you and The Cardinal Nation sponsor Whitey’s Baseball-Ref page.
Mozeliak described talks with Boras as still “very preliminary” and did not predict when a follow-up may take place. However, Cardinals Chairman Bill DeWitt Jr. attended Sunday night’s session, suggesting financial parameters were discussed.
I’m glad someone could plainly see why Billiam was there………………………the Cards aren’t going to risk a formal offer…………………..now its low ball time with all the other teams. Boston stopped at 4/60 with Bay………I wonder if they really think Holiday is twice as good. Yankee’s spent all day try ti hook Granderson……….Angels are talking to Bay………..looks like teams are going to sweat Boris/Holiday for awhile. Looks like Halladay has really changed the market.
90 minutes is a long time for busy people. Cigars, brandy……………any chance both parties felt a need to make the meeting look more important than it was? Plenty of nervous laughter maybe. We know why the Cards are putting on a show……..why Scottie? Is he getting nervous. Its bad luck when you get fired by a front line guy like Matt.
Chief,.nutlaw will be especially pleased that you noticed my Whitey sponsorship. I originally set it up when this blog had the main URL. I guess I should change the address on Baseball-Reference to the blog.
Among the other pages I also sponsor include the 2008 Cardinals team page, Kyle Lohse, Brendan Ryan, Mitchell Boggs, Trever Miller, Nick Stavinoha… and Al Hrabosky (couldn’t resist that last one).
Congratulations to Herzog. It cannot have been easy for him to enjoy so much success, because the farm system was not a fount of talent.
Cool, TLR told Strauss that Penny is from Oklahoma. Some others from the state of OK: Braden Looper, Ryan Franklin, Matt Holliday, and in the minors Blake King and Pete Kozma.
Penny adds yet another post-Boston Red Sox player.
WCBW thinks the Cards are putting on a show and nervous about Holliday. Actually, the Cards seem pretty relaxed about Holliday. With Brad Penny, the Cards have shown they can pull the trigger. They would have signed Holliday long ago, if he were willing to sign already, but Boras is playing a waiting game. That’s fine for Boras and his business, but the Cards will have to move on, at some point. The timing of when guys are willing to sign a deal is an important and overlooked practical factor.
Last winter, Mo got a lot of criticism for mentioning “low hanging fruit.” He meant timing rather than talent. For instance, the Cards like to sign the backup catcher early. Even though Jason LaRue is not a big time talent, you want to plug the gap of catcher early, every year.
Brad Penny is a hard throwing, hard working guy. He must have showed enough last year in terms of innings pitched that the Cards think he is over some injury problems of the past. He is willing to take a one year deal. And he is willing to sign now, not a lot of cutesy hemming and hawing. So pending approval of a physical by the now ultra vigilant Dr. Paletta, Penny is on board.
Holliday may be on-hold, because of the Jason Bay thing. As long as Bay looks for more than the Red Sox are willing to give him, then Holliday is on hold. If the Red Sox give up on Bay, then they can move on to Holliday. The Sox will outbid the Cards for Holliday or anyone else. But the Sox can use the threat of signing Holliday to try to hold down the price of Bay. If Bay sees that he cannot get more than the Sox are offering him, he may stay with the Sox and then Holliday could possibly return to the Cards. A lot rides on Bay.
The Cards do business with Boras, year after year. He represents lots of players, not just Holliday. So the Cards do not want to get upset about one player and damage the overall relationship with Scottie B. They probably have a comfortable honest talk with Boras and explain their negotiating aims for this off-season. If Boras is going to take too long to ink Holliday, then the Cards may move on. Its not about the money so much as it is the timing of when to spend it.
Penny received a very nice contract. The “no arbitration guarantee is interesting too.” Considering Tony’s comments, I’m applauding Mo/Bd for taking what we need……decisively. There is a hint of apologetic accommodation here, in the amount of decisiveness, and I’m sure Albert is smiling.
204 innings is a handsome number. Anyone have an idea what the Giants offer was? Why not take Smoltz the same way……….. a closer if he is needed.
If the Granderson trade goes through, Jason Bay is going to start to wiggle. Mariners back down. The Boston 4/60 might start looking pretty good in a week. Too bad the Cardinals haven’t put a number out for Holiday to panic over.
Rather than no arb at all, I heard it is no arb if Penny is a Type A only. Since rankings are based on two years and he wasn’t even a B this season, Penny would need a whale of a 2010 to be an A next fall, anyway. Hopefully, he is a B and gets the Cards another sandwich pick this time next year.
“Too bad the Cardinals haven’t put a number out for Holiday to panic over.”
Westy, you’re forgetting Scottie asked the Cards not to. If you are advocating bad manners I am shocked. There goes you’re shot at the HOF.
Brian, maybe Penny will look good for a few months and Cards will sign him for 4/40 with a full NTC.
bb, make it $41 and you’ve got a deal!
I’m assuming they learned their lesson, figured they’d be more conservative.
The FA draft picks clause shouldn’t suprise you Westie. Since you think the Card’s strategy is to go mid market they wouldn’t offer in any case – right?
I think the “no arbitration clause’ is a little more along Brian’s definition. A guy with Penny’s medical history might find it hard to find takers if he was dragging around a draft pick handicap. Especially after a good year. Considering his throwing motion, he is a natural for Dave’s tactics, which would likely lower his pitch counts. Downside, his throwing motion is all about elbow. If he cuts down his pitch count and lowers the number of breaking pitches he decoys with, he just might make 204. I watched him with Boston a few times. The Green Monster and sleepy big poppy didn’t help. The Giants park and speedy left fielder suited him much better.
The Boris / BD accommodations are provocative…….and meant to be that. I wonder if Beltre is a topic of discussion? Boris isn’t likey to spend 90 minutes with anybody, and less he is angling something. No……..not Rick………….gulp!!!!!!!!
The Yankees get a big bat with a trade. Yikes……..Bay has got to be reaching for the ripcord soon.
What if the Yankees grab Holiday too………….game over. Expect Boston to make noise over Holiday starting now.
Granderson is a nice player, but is terrible against left-handed pitchers, with a career .614 OPS. Better the Red Sox load up on LHP if they want to answer.
Here’s the inside on the Tiger Woods situation……………… Tiger likes brunette bimbos who he doesn’t have to pay…….directly…….. he is a nasty boy.
I watched the Herzog interview on MLB, with Harvey. Funny guy.
Boras just entered this on Twitter, honest. “Boras is having a scotch and patting himself on the back. Wheels are in motion.” Post two: “This Glen Grant 1960 is the Pudge of single malts…aged and robust.”
Sheesh….
He left off “……and overpriced.”
Not to mention the speaking in third person…
By tomorrow it will be “We are having a scotch…..”
Maybe he sold Beltre to the Mariners.
Any opinions/ideas on if Cards will lose or take any Rule 5’s
I think they should. They have the roster space. Even if they sign some guys later and have to give them back before Spring Training its worth the risk in my opinion. The need a RH pitcher and a LH outfield bat. I wouldn’t even mind seeing them pick up a LH relief pitcher (never know who might get hurt in the Spring). However, my guess is they won’t select anyone.
Doubt we’ll lose anyone. I doubt one will, but if I was a team I might take a chance on Daley. If he has found his control, his arm is good enough to pitchi in the majors.
Matt Scherer might be a risk someone would take. There are a lot of useless pitchers out there. Maybe the Pads would give up on Perdomo or the tribe on Reyes. Could always give him back if need be. The cards maybe could be looking for a pitcher that DD could tweak.
He certainly did once, but probably won’t again… Fool me once, shame on you…
Very difficult to guess who, but it is more likely than not someone will be coming or going. It has been years since the Cards had no Rule 5 activity.
I will be posting a subscriber-only article at the main TheCardinalNation.com site later today that shows the Cardinals recent Rule 5 history.
Unfortunately, those players you cite are not Rule 5-eligible. Only players not on the 40-man roster and left unprotected qualify.
“It’s an art. There’s no science with it.”
I think this is truly the essence of Tony. (his interview today) Also the Herzog comments. This maybe more about technique than steroid distraction. The Brett comment is the tell.
If someone wanted Scherer they could have claimed him when we removed him from the 40 man roster. At that point they only would have had to put him on their 40 man roster (with options) but now they would have to keep in the majors all year. Seems unlikely though stranger things could happen.
The Cards most likely will lose a player or 2 in the minor league phase. They need a 3B for Springfield so they could pick someone up also.
There are signs that BD/Mo got the whole sales pitch on Scotties boys. It appears he has had a hard time pitching Ankiel to anyone.
i think Scott has found his buyer for Holliday. He’s talking up STL now as a destination for Matt.
http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/commishs-hot-stove/winter-meetings-updates/2009/12/boras-signing-holliday-like-keeping-two-players-for-cardinals/
While some will speculate that he this means he has no market for Holliday, I think thats not the case. I think he now has an acceptable bid and is just trying to bring STL back in to the mix to drive up the price even further.
Boras and BD are at odds. The postural courteousnesses, BD will now find, is a two way street. Take your picture in the beasties layer, beastie keeps a copy for his Christmas Cards.
I give credit to Boras for his publicity campaign, featuring himself in the Post-Dispatch, explaining how he was raised by George Kissell. There may be some truth, but there is also a ton of bull in his story.
But its smart stuff. He is for the first time I can recall emphasizing his Cardinals ties. And he is really trying to out DeWitt as a cheap skate who could afford Holliday and this would be his best chance to retain Pujols too. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Boras is good at what he does.
You would have thought that if Holliday were ulta-hot there would be all sorts of bids flying around. This more reminds me of the Manny stuff with the Dodgers, where they bid $22.5MM and the two sides held off for what seemed like months, until finally Boras caved and took the $22.5MM. There was no other bidder for Manny at that price. It was all a dopey farce and Manny is a jerk.
I am not sure the Cards can afford to wait until March to hear what Holliday wants to do. At some point, either the Cards or Boras have to move on, one or the other. Its not going to help Boras for the Cards to drop out, so he is trying to keep them in his great game.
DeWitt and Mo have probably already told Scott that at some point they will have to drop out, because they have a business to run. This is not to embarass him or Matt. Its just a business necessity. Brad Penny manned up and made a decision. He wants to play ball, we stepped up and gave him a strong deal because Tony likes the guy. End of story.
Mo needs to tell Scott the Cards are not idiots like the McCourts, keeping an open offer to Manny for months. The Cards can say they love Matt, but by January, they have to move on, because they have a business to run. No open-ended offer that Matt can fall back upon in March.
The Boras media blitz is fine. Ok, he got his crazy story out there in the Post Dispatch and he is trying to embarass DeWitt. I would not take it personally. Boras has to be himself and do his thing. But at some point, enough is enough, we have to move on, not get distracted by antics. Find a guy who wants to play here, even if he is not as good as Matt Holliday. A decision has to be made before January.
I love the way the Cards signed Brad Penney. They went after him and got it done, no messing around. They wanted to do that last winter with Brian Fuentes, but he chose the Angels. This year, we are further along, because we got the man we wanted, plus LaRue. Good.
As regards Holliday, we like him. He could sign tomorrow if Boras were not looking for some team to overpay. This may happen. If so, we move on, there are other fish in the sea. It also may not happen, in which case Boras is ill-served, if the Cards drop out. This is why he has asked them not to bid, so far.
Overall, it seems like a softish baseball marketplace. Lots of teams do not want to spend. And no enormous deals so far.
CC’s theory (above at 5:17pm) that Boris now has an acceptable offer is possible, but it would have to be the only thing happening in Indy that hasn’t been leaked or rumored. For that reason, it seems more likely he doesn’t have squatt. His favorite tactic is getting a team to bid against itself and I think thats what he’s doing. He knows that, unlike the Dodgers, the Cards can’t and won’t wait. He probably wet himself when Mo spent $7.5M. The Cards are doing a good job with their own BS campaign, Tejada and continued interest in DeRosa, who we know would sooner go to Japan than come back. Economic conditions do not support Boris’s customary tactics and Mo proves to be a tough customer.
So many fine scenarios posed BB and that Shrimp fellow………….. What is really true?
1) there is a collusion taking place. Teams will pay a penalty, but that will be balanced against money saved in Contracts. Advantage owners.
2) Holiday would be a good poster boy in a collusion suit made easier now that Bonds looks like he is giving it up. Those aren’t equal split settlements.
3) there is a game at hand and the Cards are hardly in it. The Yankee’s have trump as in the Mark T. contact last year. They can wait as long as they want because Boris will always give them last shot. The Yankees are watching Jason Bay. They are watching Roy Hallady. They want Bay to sign on the west coast. If they take Holiday now, Boston will take Bay at 4/70 or something like that. If they wait, maybe someone pony’s up out west. Stressing Toronto is on everyones mind…….
Bottom line…Holiday is a Yankee, unless Red Sox blow it up.(unlikely) If Boston signs Beltre, they will settle up with Bay in a hurry also. But by holding out too, for awhile, they stress the Yanks as much as possible by making them spend lavishly on Holiday…………… Boras sees all of this.
4) Bad news is that WC was right about the Cardinals and Holiday……..a year ago, and today too.
The whole show is a reversal on earlier Card tactics. Now they can’t complain about untruths, as
Scottie couldn’t while the Cards were negotiating behind his back. They don’t like each other.
CNB’s resident shaman is so insightful, he once thought Brian Barden should play everyday.
The world economy is not in a good way and is not going to be getting happier anytime soon. This fully explains why teams are not spending the money the shaman would like to see.
The Yankees spent a ton last winter. They are not going to be doing anything huge this winter.
Boras has never featured himself in the Post Dispatch before. So you know he is pulling out all the stops, precisely because he sees the Cards as a real possibility for Holliday. However, he would take Holliday elsewhere for a few million more. And that’s ok. Good luck to Matt.
A lot of this stuff is about respect. Money is an expression of respect. Mo has told Boras the general parameters of a deal, in case Holliday would like to return. Boras’ job is to find a higher bidder. If there is not a higher bidder, then Boras will want to take the Cards offer before it disappears. The Cards will have also told Boras when they are going to turn elsewhere, because respect has to be a two-way street. Boras and Holliday have to make a decision at some point, because we cannot wait on them for-ever.
BB said, “The Cards are doing a good job with their own BS campaign, Tejada and continued interest in DeRosa, who we know would sooner go to Japan than come back.”
I know of one person who makes a daily phone call in hopes of changing somebody’s mind about returning to St. Louis. And its not Albert
Hopefully, the person is not stressing over it and is filling up on steak and potatoes.
On another note, Kevin Coriea could become available. I’d like to see the Cards look into that.
Westy, crowd psychology is an aspect of human nature. It doesn’t mean we walk around colluding with each other all the time. Cyclical markets are an aspect of economic reality and are in part due to the effects of crowd psychology. A flat market doesn’t have the effect of subsidizing big long-term contracts like a rising market does. I would also suspect that the cost of insuring distant years has skyrocketed. Paying Juan Pierre $10M in 2010 may have sounded ok back in November of 2006, but today the best thing that could happen to the Dodgers would be for him to get DLed the whole year.These things could be expected to get the herd moving this way and that. It changes the lay of the land for Boris and Cashman.
Gaining this Jukich guy and losing Parisi seems OK. Seems like no more of a longshot than Garcia to give us a lefty starter.
The other lefty we took, Meyers, he has 2 innings in AAA and 20 in AA. WTF, how
is he supposed to make the roster. Any ideas from you knowledgeable folks.
Meyers was chosen in the AAA phase. He doesn’t have to make the roster out of Spring Training. we can let him pitch at AAA or AA or even A ball if we want. Hopefully he has some potential and can turn into something that can help us down the road.
Thanks CC. Are there any requirements at all, or is he just ours now.
As far as I know he is ours – I think we can return him for half the fee if we want but I’m not positive. Brian may know more details.
I’m sure you can expect the owner’s attorneys to say just that BB. Players Union tends to look at specific players examples. The judge or arbiter decides…….its just business. Billy Beane goes home early for a reason.
Some ESPN guy says Boras wants 3 yrs and big bucks for Ankiel. So far as I know Wolf is the only 3 year big buck type thing that’s happened so far. Scottie might have become overly optimistic over the Pudge thing. One could easily imagine he’s still living in 2006 on Holliday as well. Matt will have to snap him out of it. I know several real estate guys who refused to sell buildings for less than they could have got a couple years ago, figuring to wait it out. They are still waiting, eating the negative cash flow every month. There is no advantage in basing your idea of value on market conditions that don’t exist anymore. If Holliday is worth more to Boras than he is to anyone else, the Cards may have to move on, but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t move on Holliday later and then execute a salary dump. Hopefully, Matt will man up and stop the madness.
Boras is a solid baseball analyst BB. He is like an arms dealer. He has some players available that will likely decide the division they go into. Owners have the privilege of deciding if they want a division crown for a price, or whether they want to just play baseball for it. I said last winter that after the Yankees took MT, they win that division easily because they would brutalize the weak teams thus winning enough games to enter the playoffs.
This year, teams with pitching…….Cards..Cubs..Yanks..Red Sox…ect.. could all make an investment that would increase there playoff hopes by 40%. If the Cubs shed Bradley, and go a little crazy and grab Holiday, we’re history. They will destroy the 3 weak links in the division and take it. Yanks and the Sox wouldn’t mind seeing that as it keeps some parity in they’re arms race. If Holiday is left, he will go to the Yankees for 6/120. Red Sox will sign Bay, he is just looking for an extra year and + 20 million from them. It looks to me, through all the turbulence of current distractions, that what we thought 6 weeks ago is still true. The Cards make a show signing and retreat to lick they’re wounds. If they would have made a formal offer as I said, everything would look differently. All the Boras hype in the Cardinal press might be aimed at one person, Matt Holiday, who I would guess would like to come back. Boris knows that Holiday in ST Louis wouldn’t bother NY or Boston.
Yes, Meyer belongs to StL and they can put him where they want. My feeling is that both lefties will be with Memphis as the organization tries to address a shortfall. I posted a free article on the main TheCardinalNation.com site earlier this afternoon with more details, including video on the two new Cardinals.
I like the arms dealer comparison for Boras. Now I have to go back and watch Lord of War again picturing Boras in the Nicholas Cage role and figuring out which country equates to which team. Should be fun.
Brian, how do you see Jukich getting to memphis? You dont think Cincy will want him back?
Meyer most likely would have to out pitch either Norrick or Fiske to end up at Memphis – no certainty,
The Cards lost three lefty relievers from Mem – Manning, Ring and Ostlund, so there are openings there.
Regarding Jukich, in my haste to post, I went shorthand. I suspect he is initially spring insurance for Miller and Reyes. It wouldn’t surprise me to see the Cards try to work a deal with Cincy to keep him and move him down at the end of March to continue as in-season insurance, hoping he will never be needed, like MacLane and the three relievers this year. It would be unusual for StL to break camp with three lefties in the pen.
Point……….when a team likes a player, but are in disagreement with his representation on the amount of compensation, they often agree to let the agent shop said player on top of an early offer.
If an agent can get a superior offer on paper, home team has the opportunity to better said offer. This is how its done. This is what Jason Bays agent is doing. He likes Boston. They like him. The rest of the league will decide how much they pay him.
Holiday isn’t in that position. Holiday likes the Cardinals, but they are just blowing smoke about wanting to sign him. Thats why there isn’t an offer. Boston knows JB isn’t going anywhere. The Yanks know Holiday isn’t going anywhere. They are completely taking advantage of this knowledge in their bargaining positions. Boras isn’t loved in Boston because they put up 160 million only to watch the Yanks take MT for 180. They aren’t playing that game again.
Lets pray that Scottie’s ridiculous 3yr demand for Ankiel doesn’t mean that he is holding him for the Cards in some late breaking deal 1yr, just for some back scratching at this point. Boris disposed of Lopez in a 1yr deal to Arizona last year at this time without even blinking. This is interesting theater.
Good grief, there is a lot of confusion. Boras and Epstein are thick as theives. Epstein has moved Lowell to the bankrupt Rangers, paying most of his salary as with Julio Lugo. The Sox just want Lowell gone and will reload with Boras client Beltre. Boras client JD Drew recently had an overdue shoulder operation. The Sox are not going to be scared of bidding on Boras client Holliday. Holliday will stay with St Louis if the Red Sox choose to retain Bay.
Jumbo said: “Boras and Epstein are thick as theives.”
I disagree. Boras stuck the Red Sox when he went to the Yanks with Teixeira and earlier on the Manny behaving badly incidents that were investigated by MLB.
Brian Walton said he disagreed.
Thats fine with me, Brian.
The Red Sox are big spenders and Boras has a lot to sell at high prices. The two sides are going to find one another, sometimes.
Varitek was a Boras client who made a ton of moola with the Sox. Why they stuck with him so long, it beats me. The Sox caught Boras client J D Drew’s shoulder problem in a pre-signing physical, but still signed him.
After all the hot air and handwringing about Texeira and Manny, there are rumors the Sox want Boras client Beltre. If Beltre were to sign with the Sox, how can this be explained?
Apparently there is only one measurement on your scale, “thick as theives”. I seriously doubt any club and Boras are that close. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as I am to disagree. That doesn’t mean they won’t do business. Perhaps they will.
Boris tried the same thing with Sabean as he’s been doing with MO and the Cards, making him out to be a greedy cheapskate in the hometown paper, and explaining why the Giants need Holliday. Its interesting to contrast the response of the two organizations. The Cards have been going back and forth, verbally jousting, and then left town without making an offer, while Sabean basically just told him to go to hell.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_13965920?source=most_emailed
Described as “frustrated” by a number of agents, Mozeliak continues to juggle several possibilities while chairman Bill DeWitt Jr. orchestrates dealings with Boras.
Boras is just an agent. He struggles to stay connected to ownership and his clients. The Cards are just playing charades………..right now that suits Boras just fine……….as it suits the Cardinals in cloaking there business plan. Last year the decisive move was Lohse…….this year it Penny. Will the Cardinals match the DeRosa offers? ………………. In the Car business its planned obsolescence. Parts engineered to fail at the right time.
“I understand what teams say publicly and what they say privately,” Boras said. “I’m not going to come to you (reporters) and let you know what they really say. There are teams that have interest and don’t want to let anyone truly know.”
“Boras is just an agent”.
On this, we agree.
“He struggles…..the Cards are just playing charades.”
On this, we do not. Boras is having a ball, doing his thing, no struggle at all. The Cards sit back and let him strut and fret his hour upon the stage, as a cynical Bard penned.
“I understand what teams say publicly and what they privately” Boras said.
Snore. DeWitt understands too. Charades are played every winter, indeed all four seasons, and the Cards are not rookies.
“Will the Card match DeRosa offers?”
Why would they want to do so?
DeRosa may be headed to San Fran it appears. That probably takes the cards down the Felipe Lopez road for one, maybe two years.
Re “thick as thieves”
The Red Sox acted huffy about the Manny and Texeira charades, but are right back in the scrum, paying Lowell $9MM to leave town, just like Julio Lugo.
The Sox and Boras deserve one another and seemingly cannot live apart. In this mating dance, neither side seems entirely pure. To someone as pure and idealistic as JS, both seem thieves.
BB, re #2, good point on Boras’ tactics on Holliday. Its all orchestrated. With their cable contract, the Giants have a lot of money, so they must really not want Holliday.
Whereas the Cards pay the piper, sometimes. The fiscal year has peaks and valleys. Now is a peak time. The Cards will pay peak prices, as they did when Mo signed Pineiro after 2007. There was no end of wailing from fans at the time. Last September, Mo inked Lohse to a 4 year deal, since we like his professionalism; Kyle had some injury problems in 09, but he could bounce back next summer; lets hope so. This winter, the Cards ponied up for Penny; they like him. And the Cards will have outlined serious money for Holliday.
Now for his part, Boras likes to try to fight the fiscal year peaks and valleys. Sometimes this works out for him and sometimes Boras has to cave come March. Boras figures with an uber player like Matt Holliday, the dollars will be there from somebody in March, if they are there for him now. This is not unreasonable for Boras to think.
For their part, the Cards may not want to wait around as long. They will need to drop out of the Holliday competition so as to make alternative moves, instead of waiting around to see what Boras decides in March. If they do this, then Scottie B. is running your team. And it does not help Boras for the Cards or any other team to drop out of the Holliday competition, so he wants to keep them in the game as long as possible. Its a balancing act. At some point, we tell Boras we are dropping out and see if he wants to deal then. If not, so be it, we do some other things.
There would be nothing wrong with Lopez at all RC, I like it. Boras would pee his pants if Mo called him up wanting to spend money on somebody besides MH.
The Yankees are happy with the balance between themselves and Boston. Why wouldn’t they. If Boston doesn’t go after Holliday, the Yankees won’t. Boston doesn’t want to because they know the Yanks and Boras would just pull another Tex. That’s why Scottie is rattling cages with the second tier teams like SF. Somehow, behind the scenes, he is working to get Bay out of Boston so as to get the big boys in the MH game.
“he is working to get Bay out of Boston, so as to get the big boys in the MH game.”
Sounds plausible, but if Boston’s offer to Bay is high enough, why would he want to leave?
There are a lot of variables, competing teams, competing agents, competing players. Even if there is some collusion among the players, as teammates within a union, there are so many variables, its hard to keep track of them all.
MLBTradeRumors pulls together rumors from all over the media at one convenient site. So this web site can probably play a little bit of a role in helping teams and players better understand some of the goals and options for teams and players alike. Through the Web, there is better information about the market as a whole, which in the past must have been very hard for individual teams to know.
I agree that Lopez is a decent (and cheaper) replacement than Derosa. We will need a power bat though.
Who said Lopez is cheap?……………………………. Boris also holds Damon who the Yankee’s want to DH and platoon. They are just negotiating prices. Hes trying to find someone to offer something for Damon to justify a better deal. Yanks will give up 2/20 maybe. He will make it take weeks as cover on Holidays free grazing period. Boris now controls the Yanks future, Boston’s with Beltre and its relationship to the Jason Bay final numbers. Many things are evident. Creating a connective framework based on observation instead of need seems to hinder some of us. (behind the water cooler type of guys)
“Boris now controls the Yanks future, Boston’s…” Not this year Westy, that is the problem Boris faces, and the problem he is trying hard to solve. He doesn’t controll anyone that either NY or Boston has to have. Boston doesn’t see Beltre as a must have, and NY doesn’t see Beltre as anyone who would alter the balance, so they don’t care if Boston signs him (and any other ‘game changing defenders’ they want). The only thing that would upset the situation is if Bay leaves and Boston goes for MH. Then NY wakes up. Then Boris is in control. Boston would rather overpay for Bay than let him leave, which would cause the Yanks to outbid them for MH. So the way for Boston to prevent the balance from tilting even more toward NY, is to keep Bay and thereby prevent Boris from taking control.
Mo just said he has made a formal offer for MH. Didn’t say what it is.
New blog post on that to be up in about ten minutes….
BB, you posted the article on the Giants GM criticizing Boras who had made a public analysis of his needs. Boras already controls the contingencies for his clients. He is now pressuring the market as a whole. He could fail, yes……………. There will be a massive dead pool…..Boras will have kept most of his clients out of it, solidifying his reputation. Boston is spending millions for chemistry. They look closely at the character of the people the pay. Beltre has a huge upside in his emotional isolationism. He might just go “career number” in Boston………..or ST Louis. Lopez is a complicated player, Gifted but troubled, from the field to his home life. He isn’t a mix for Carpenter, Wainwright and some of the kids. Albert did some baby sitting in 08. He is an unlikely candidate for 3rb. 2nd maybe, sending Shu to the outfield…………………Boras isn’t going to let him slide again on a 1 yr deal.
The comment, “Boras doesn’t want us to make a bid” is a joke. Boras knows what the Cardinals are doing. He will play along as long as they are players for a client. That client now is Lopez, not Holiday.