Back in February, I identified the 59 players then under contract with the St. Louis Cardinals that would be eligible for the 2009 Rule 5 Draft, to be held December 10 at Baseball’s Winter Meetings. The purpose of this article is to fill in the gaps from then until now.
In the intervening nine months, an entire season of transactions occurred, to the point that original list of 59 was whittled down to just 20. As part of the normal business of baseball, most of the other 39 were released or added to the 40-man roster. Several others were traded, retired, placed on the restricted list or became free agents.
One joined the list when he was removed from the 40-man and another newly-signed player is eligible, making the current total 22.
| Feb. total | Off 40-man | New sign | Subtotal | Remain | Released | Add 40-man | Free agent | Traded | Restricted | Retired |
| 59 | 1 | 1 | 61 | 22 | 18 | 13 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 2 |
| Shearer | P Rodriguez | Buckman | Anderson | Castellanos | Gregerson | Landin | Gorsett | |||
| C Gonzalez | Craig | Ostlund | Sillman | |||||||
| Degerman | Freese | Thurston | ||||||||
| Haltiwanger | Hamilton | Yarbrough | ||||||||
| E Hernandez | Jay | |||||||||
| Herron | Jones | |||||||||
| I Garcia | Norrick | |||||||||
| Ja Martinez | Ottavino | |||||||||
| Javier | Pagnozzi | |||||||||
| Knoedler | Rasmus | |||||||||
| Leach | Robinson | |||||||||
| Mateo | Samuel | |||||||||
| Maiques | Walters | |||||||||
| Mikrut | ||||||||||
| Noguera | ||||||||||
| Peralta | ||||||||||
| Rogers | ||||||||||
| Rowlett |
These are the remaining 22 players eligible for Rule 5 selection and have been confirmed. They are listed by year originally signed.
| Player | Position | DOB | Draft yr/rd | Signed |
| Pedro Rodriguez | RHP | 10/31/1987 | 2004 | |
| Andres Rosales | RHS | 06/13/1988 | 2004 | |
| Jose Martinez | 2B | 01/24/1986 | 2004 | |
| Mike Parisi | RHS | 04/18/1983 | 2004 9 | 2004 |
| Matt Scherer | RHR | 01/20/1983 | 2004 16 | 2004 |
| Domnit Bolivar | SS | 05/12/1989 | 2005 | |
| Jose Rada | RHS | 04/13/1988 | 2005 | |
| Edwin Gomez | OF | 03/10/1988 | 2005 | |
| Donovan Solano | SS | 12/17/1987 | 2005 | |
| Ivan Castro | C | 11/17/1987 | 2005 | |
| Shaun Garceau | RHS | 08/28/1987 | 2005 20 | 2005 |
| Mark McCormick | RHS | 10/15/1983 | 2005 1a | 2005 |
| Trey Hearne | RHS | 08/19/1983 | 2005 28 | 2005 |
| Gary Daley Jr. | RHR | 11/01/1985 | 2006 3 | 2006 |
| David Carpenter | RHR | 07/15/1985 | 2006 12 | 2006 |
| Jim Rapoport | OF | 06/25/1985 | 2006 35 | 2006 |
| Kyle Mura | RHS | 11/24/1984 | 2006 42 | 2006 |
| Brandon Dickson | RHS | 11/03/1984 | 2006 | |
| Mark Shorey | OF | 08/13/1984 | 2006 31 | 2006 |
| Marco Gonzalez | RHR | 05/28/1984 | 2006 | |
| Amaury Cazana | OF | 09/02/1978 | 2006 18 | 2006 |
| Brad Furnish | LHS | 01/19/1985 | 2006 2 | 2006 |
At this point, most articles on this subject would conclude. Yet there is another factor which dramatically affects which of these players might be most advantageously selected by another organization.
Only the players put on the Triple-A Memphis reserve list for protection would be eligible for the major league phase of the Rule 5 Draft. Those players would have to remain on the new club’s 25-man active major league roster the entire 2010 season or be offered back to the Cardinals after clearing waivers.
There is not room for every player on the Memphis roster, so the Cardinals probably had to make some tradeoffs as to which players they wanted to make most painful for another club to take.
Some of these 22 eligible players have likely been stationed on the Double-A Springfield roster or lower. These players cost less to select and most importantly, do not have to be added to the major league roster if taken in the Rule 5. Effectively, they do not have to the returned even if they are later demoted.
A recent example is outfielder Cody Haerther. One year ago, the Cardinals placed him on the Springfield reserve roster. He was then taken by Toronto in the Triple-A phase of the 2008 Rule 5 Draft and as a result, was essentially gone forever from the Cardinals organization.
Once I receive confirmation on which reserve rosters these eligible players reside, I will share that information with TheCardinalNation.com / Scout.com subscribers. Update: “Available Cardinals Rule 5 Players by Level” now posted.
Post-publishing updates: Kenny Maiques and Jon Mikrut had been previously released by the Cardinals and have been moved accordingly. Newly-signed pitcher Pedro Rodriguez has been added to the eligibles.
Not reflected above: The November 30 signing of infielder Ruben Gotay to a minor league contract adds another to the Memphis roster, increasing the total number of Rule 5 eligibles to 23.
I wonder if Jose Martinez will be able to put the tragedy of murder behind him and move forward. Two years ago, he looked like a solid prospect for the middle infield.
I had asked Jeff Luhnow that very question about Martinez three weeks ago. Of course the hope is there, but we will have to see. His specific answer is included in the audio interview series posted on TheCardinalNation.com.
Of all the names listed, Martinez is the one I am more unsure of in terms of R5 eligibility due to how he may be classified. I hope to get that clarified at the start of the week.
mikrut was released before the 2009 season, he’s a coach for northwestern now.
Was he released or did he “retire”? When I saw his name there I assumed he retired but hadn’t submitted the proper paperwork so was still on a roster somewhere.
Sheesh. I should have done a more through job of checking my own roster matrix. Released March 26. Mikrut removed and totals updated. Thanks, jcrocke.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/26F6F42513A862608625767C000EDFF8?OpenDocument
I feel that this Cardinal Controlled document fulfills many topics discussed here in 2009. It’s tone of mutual love and respect and the many inescapable realities of the business, would have been a slap in the face in 2008. This neutral ground is a positional adaptation as a result of the Birmingham trip, which is apparently just some water under the bridge at this point.
I can’t help but marvel at the utility of their postures though…………… Pujols, new MVP in hand saying, “show me you want to win” attempting to create a positive self affirmation in the light of its golden glow……………………. ..Mo/BD just waiting. There is a buzzard like quality in their “surveillance” of possibilities. One being a curiosity as to questions concerning Albert’s 2010 productivity I’ll wager. The grappling continues, both combatants on their feet, now in a neutral position.
WestCoast, I’m okay with patience on both sides. I never understood the urgency to extend AP that Mo and DeWitt expressed at the end of the season. I hope they’re learning from the mistakes they’ve made in recent years, particularly the bizarre decision to give Franklin a new contract in August, when the Cards already held a team option for 2010. Signing a guy at the absolute pinnacle of his career is never a good idea.
Several knowledgeable people say that signing Franklin in August was a bad idea, and as a fan I feel I was left in the dark. It would be usefull to know which of them thought that it was worth mentioning before the downturn became obvious, and where they mentioned it, so I will know where to look for timely information in the future.
Lou – ” WestCoast, I’m okay with patience on both sides. I never understood the urgency to extend AP that Mo and DeWitt expressed at the end of the season. ”
Well Lou, IMO it it impreative to discover Alberts intentions so as to know how to prepare for the future. The best time to trade Albert would be sometime this year in order to get maximum value for him and I think we can all agree that if Albert left and we just got 2 players in return for him it would be a costly blunder on Mo’s part. So these discussions were started by the cardinals in order to get a feel for what Albert wants to do.
It appears that Albert is in firm control of the situation because he repelled the talk but said all the right things about the fans and wanting to stay in St. Louis forever. So Mo knows nothing more today than he did before he brought up the new contract opportunities for Albert. I’ve stated it before, If Albert wouldn’t sign a reasonable deal this year I’d trade him for a huge package of players. Because the longer Albert holds Mo off the more power he will have and will force the cardinals into a lose lose situation. 30 million a year will be undoable for the cardinals and will almost certainly secure a spot for them far from the top of any standings. And if he bolts and all the cards get is two players that may very well cripple the cardinals. Tough spot for the cardinals to be in, great spot for Albert.
It makes all the sense in the world that the Cardinals would want to know where Albert stands, but realistically, they probably don’t know any more now than they did before they opened the contract discussion. All they really have is the PR benefit of the world knowing they want to keep him. Even that just reaffirms what most expected.
RC’s belief that as time goes on Albert’s position gets stronger and Mo’s weaker seems totally solid. Albert’s agents say a big factor is whether the Cards demonstrate a commitment to winning. If the Cards believe that, then it follows they will want to make that demonstration as soon as possible. Conversely, the Cards made such a demonstration in ’09 with the trades without any noticeable effect on Albert’s willingness to get serious about signing, so its possible Albert’s going to wait no matter what the Cards do. If the Cards believe the latter, they will be in no hurry this winter. Both sides would no doubt pay a lot to know whether we are looking at the pinnacle or if it is yet to come.
Franklin’s extension was a good move by Mo because the price was right. They didn’t pay him the price equal to what he was pitching at the time (best closer in the NL?). A better example and similar to Pujols would be Carpenter. His extension was not a good deal because it was made at nearly market price. If I give a player security early, I want some sort of discount. That goes for Albert as well. If I sign him this year for the same price I could sign him next year then I shouldn’t do it. If I get a bit of discount for giving him some additional security it can be a win-win.
Bling, I wouldn’t expect Albert to even think of signing anytime soon.
I believe Albert has been a phonomenal numbers producer since his entrance into the Big Leagues and thats probably not going to change in the near future. That being said I think Albert knows that as good as he has been, if Carp has been hurt the team hasn’t made the playoffs. Carp is reaching the final years of his productivity I’m guessing, so Albert must wonder if he really wants to be in St. Louis post Carp with a team that isn’t willing to go out and sign the big time free agent. Carp was a damaged pitcher pickup and those kind of pickups don’t happen everyday.
Duncan and TLR are not going to be in St. Louis for 10 more years so things will be changing for Albert in that regard as well and I believe he is going to sit back and watch and see what, if anything changes in the next two years.
I believe it has become painfully obvious to him that he cannot win by himself as much as he loves carrying the team. I doubt he can outdo his numbers of this year again and those numbers weren’t enough when it came playoff time.
This is my take on what I believe could happen: If Albert remains in St. Louis he does so with the knowledge that he most likely won’t win any more World Series championships but wants to be known as one of the best cardinals of all time(which he is quickly approaching). If Albert leaves it will be because he is satisfied with the MVP’s and wants more World Series rings. I think he stays.
RC, I’d say it looks like Wainy is set to step into Carp’s shoes. The idea that Albert now knows that there’s a difference between carrying a team and being able to win by yourself is at the heart of why I think things will be different next year. Albert would know that attracting and retaining the players needed to win depends in large part in whether they would want to play here. Tony would have to know that too, if for no other reason than Mo has pointed it out.
my response to RC’s of 11:01 may have got filtered or ended up in the wrong thread.
I genuinely believe Albert loves St. Louis and wants to stay there. But I also believe he would love to be the highest paid player ever which should come along with being the best of his generation. The players association wouldn’t want Albert to settle for a fraction of his worth either so he could always fall back on that if he chose to leave.
Bling – “RC, I’d say it looks like Wainy is set to step into Carp’s shoes. The idea that Albert now knows that there’s a difference between carrying a team and being able to win by yourself is at the heart of why I think things will be different next year. Albert would know that attracting and retaining the players needed to win depends in large part in whether they would want to play here. Tony would have to know that too, if for no other reason than Mo has pointed it out.”
Things that control ones life choices change, I would guess, as every one of us go through life. I believe what makes Albert great is his desire to be the best. Could Albert show a more caring approach for his teammates? He could but if recent comment s are any indication, Albert of next year will be like Albert of last year. Someone recently asked Albert if he would contact any of the free agents and try to convince them to come to St. Louis and Albert responded by saying NO. That was their business, not his, which makes me think he is going to worry about his game and everyone else worry about theirs. Nothing wrong with this as it is how Albert seems to operate and he is damn successful at it.
Derek Jeter took Sabathia and Tex out to dinner to tell them about what the Yankees are all about. Why did he do this if the largest contract would get the player everytime? In my opinion, this is someone who wants new teammates to feel comfortable with a new situation, wants for the prospective player to feel comfortable with their new teammates. This can only be done by the best player on your team. Now what does it tell a guy when the best player on the team isn’t willing to even give you a call to try to set your mind at ease about a new situation? Or that the best player on the team isn’t trying to talk to you about reupping with your team (Holliday)? It sounds like to me that Albert is going to be the same player he was last year, which is one who focuses on his game to the nth degree but isn’t concerned with anyone else. A different type of leadership style for sure.
I wouldn’t expect TLR to do anything differently this next year than he has the previous 5. It just doesn’t seem logical to me to think a 70 year old man could or would change the way he has done things for a one year finale. Could both Albert and TLR change their approach to how they do their jobs? Sure.
Thats why I buy that lottery ticket every week. Because there is that one in 468,394,219 chance that I win. Lloyd said it best in Dumb and dumber, “So there’s a chance?”.
I do think Waino is going to be the new Carp, whose gonna be the old waino? But if memory serves the cards had both Waino and Carp this past year, plus Albert and Holliday. And that quartet went 3 and out against a young dodgers team. Albert is much smarter than me thats for sure but it doesn’t look all sunny in St. Louis to me for 2010. Now things can change in a micro second and the cardinals could be the dominant team in the NL but I don’t think anyone thinks that many changes for the good will take place this off season.
Funny, Bernie thinks along the same lines as I do. Well sorta anyway. Maybe he isn’t as dumb as I thought
I’m kidding.
http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/bernies-extra-points/bernies-extra-points/bernies-5-minutes/2009/11/confused-by-pujols/
No offense to you or Bernie, RC, but I don’t understand the reason for confusion. It is pretty simple. By signing early, Pujols yields his leverage. No reason to do that with as many or more questions than usual.
There is one reason Brian, nobody knows if his value will go down, and there’s no denying it could. (not wishing anything bad on him, just sayin)
I’d give you 10:1 odds in a heartbeat that Pujols’ value will not be less in two years than today, bb.
I would too Brian, but we would stand to lose nowhere near as much as Albert. By way of illustration, you would bet a significant sum at 10:1, but probably not your house, savings and retirement. So the importance of what you stand to lose is just as valid a consideration as the odds. My point is only that Albert will be considering the importance of the potential loss as well as the odds of losing it, so it would not be accurate to say ‘no reason’.
Yep, I always try to avoid using absolutes like “never”, “always”, “all” or “none”. I will append my earlier statement to say, “Only a very small reason to even consider doing that…”
You always try to avoid using always? OK,OK i’ll quit now.:D
Sorry about the spam filter today, folks. Please go back and read RC’s post #17 as it offers a very interesting contrast between Pujols and Jeter.
Only one thing, RC. TLR is “just” 65, not 70!
Nice thread boys.
Lou…….. the Cardinals early offer to Franklin was intend to exploit his vulnerabilities, with a cost saving benifit to themselves. Baseball had nothing to do with it. It did sting though didn’t it. He could have said no. He might have asked for more. He didn’t. That whole dialog concerning one’s self worth is ill suited for someone with Franklin’s frailties. They know their players. Its a business.
I’ve written at length on Albert as you all know. I have a difficult time not seeing the whole picture. When we talk about the isolated posturing between Albert/Tony and Mo/BD in our the present situation, I’m reminded of the appetites we all have for organizing our perceptions. Everyone here has made very valid observations, all true to the extent that they serve a function of some sort. Brian is wagering heavily, which suggests there is a predictive element to his perception. I like that.
Things to consider;
Lazano and the Hollywood boys have a different view of Albert than we do, and baseball as a business I would think. In Hollywood profit is made on a river of tears, the more blood mixed in, the better. The broken hearted Cardinals fans and Albert’s tearful goodbyes means a bigger river, floating a bigger boat that can carries more gold to and from wherever. Don’t fault them for staying as close to the docks as they can. The amount of money its going to take to dam that river and create “Lake Happy Albert” may have crossed their minds. It could easily engulf the Cardinal Village site if it isn’t well planned. Once again, I really doubt baseball has much to do with it.
Concerning his 2010 performance expectations…………. Thats tough. Brian, a player with Albert’s numbers doesn’t happen often. Thats for a good reason, and I’m guessing your statistics might show the difficulties of the road he travels. Those things that once insulated Albert have now evolved into new challenges. He has a major vulnerability in my eye’s. That which seems so innocent at one moment can become a major obstacle in the next. Look at Tiger Woods………….. one minute he is hitting a 7 iron 210 yards, the next he’s hoping it doesn’t hit back……………………….. Best of luck on Albert’s quest for fulfillment.
An interesting post yourself, WC. I would only make one slight correction. I did not forecast Albert’s performance, stats, etc. for the next two seasons. I only spoke of his growing value.
I’d give you 10:1 odds in a heartbeat that Pujols’ value will not be less in two years than today, bb.
Maybe………….. the price of greatness isn’t fixed. I was saying you could statistically calculate how may have played well and were then turned back by injury and other variables before they got to the promised land. The “father, why have you forsaken me” phase of spiritual growth can last a long while when your not nailed to a cross. Wild guess….maybe 3:1 is optimistic enough.
Brian -”No offense to you or Bernie, RC, but I don’t understand the reason for confusion. It is pretty simple. By signing early, Pujols yields his leverage. No reason to do that with as many or more questions than usual.”
Leverage yes………………in terms of his future contract but also in who is named as the next manager. My bet is that Albert will make sure the next manager is Oquendo, who will not change the status quo. You see Albert is not concerned with worrying himself with which, if any free agents care to come play for the cardinals. But boy does he care who manages. Funny how folks take care of themselves isn’t it. And what other player in the ML’s do you think cares enough about who manages to basically hold the team by the throat until they choose his pick for manager? Now Albert hasn’t stated this but this would be my take as to one of the reasons he will not sign early.
RC, Oquendo is not BD’s man. Your insistence that Albert really needs protection or seeks it, may have some substance, but, if it comes down to a pet coach, batting him third always, I don’t see it………………….Tony and Albert are struggling yearly against what they know is true in the front office. Tony wanted another year, Albert is stuck here anyway………there is no way that Albert enters the 2011 season with out a contract. The major teams would turn there backs, knowing that the mildest collusion means they would all have a free bid in 2012. Its not going to happen……………….. The Gotay signing shows a pattern. It fulfills a function. It certainly suggests DeRosa isn’t being considered. We aren’t going into the season with 5 middle infielders again me thinks. I guess we lost a prospect in AAA if I recall. He is a switch hitter anyway.
Westy, there are two overlapping statistical probability spreads. 1. Will ‘Lake Happy Albert’ be created, and if so, 2. Will Albert be able to walk on it for 8 or 10 years. BDW and Mo will need to assess #2 as a part of looking how wide and deep they are willing to make #1, and Albert will need to assess #2 in lookong at just how wide and deep he needs it to be.
I’d take your 10:1 odds on the market for Pujols in heartbeat Brian. I’d give about an 80% chance he’s totally healthy in 2 years (15% chance of elbow problem, 5% chance of something else) and about an 80% chance of an economy as good or better than it is today. That would make the odds closer 6 or 7 to 1.
CC, you have the downside covered well, but apparently you see no upside, like the chance that Pujols actually improves as he is in his prime years…
WC – “RC, Oquendo is not BD’s man. Your insistence that Albert really needs protection or seeks it, may have some substance, but, if it comes down to a pet coach, batting him third always, I don’t see it………………….”
It is my contention that if BD wants Albert to stay in St. Louis it may not matter if BD like Oquendo or not, only if Albert wants him as manager or not.
WC – “Tony and Albert are struggling yearly against what they know is true in the front office. Tony wanted another year, Albert is stuck here anyway………there is no way that Albert enters the 2011 season with out a contract. The major teams would turn there backs,
knowing that the mildest collusion means they would all have a free bid in 2012. Its not going to happen……………….”
I am curious as to what you see as being true in the front office.
WC -”The Gotay signing shows a pattern. It fulfills a function. It certainly suggests DeRosa isn’t being considered. We aren’t going into the season with 5 middle infielders again me thinks. I guess we lost a prospect in AAA if I recall. He is a switch hitter anyway.”
DeRosa wasn’t coming back to St. Louis if he had to go play in Japan, which we all know wasn’t going to happen, was the word I got. Damn that clubhouse
The Gotay signing seems geared toward developing a team similar to last years. Gotay is this years Joe Thurston.
Seems to me the Cards have to make a fundamental choice: they can do whatever it takes to keep Albert, even if it means his salary is a quarter to a third of the total payroll, or they trade him for a set of players. As RC said, letting him walk after 2010 for a pair of draft picks is unacceptable.
In theory, you could build a winning team around a single superstar, but in practice I don’t know of any examples of things working out that way. (Other than Bonds and the Giants in the early ’00s, but to me that’s just another example of the way steroids distorted everything.)
The single superstar is good for distracting fans while the team rebuilds — the Cards proved that from ’97-’99 when they filled the stadium while losing games and loading up on what they thought were premium prospects. Does DeWitt has the stomach for that? It’s anyone’s guess. The Cards also lucked out in 2000 when McGwire didn’t sign his contract extension, freeing up payroll to pursue more premium players.
If Albert signs a career-encompassing contract, there’s no exit strategy for the Cards. They’ll have to find a way to build a winning team around a single player who towers over the rest of his teammates and whose contract restricts the organization’s ability to make adjustments — something no other team has been able to do in the free-agent era.
But that still might be the best move for both Albert and the Cards. Trading him for players who may not pan out is far riskier than paying him what he’s worth and letting the fans enjoy the second half of his career.
I agree Lou, it is a tough spot for the cards to be in.
And it is why I stated that a trade is the best thing for the team if Albert has his eyes set on breaking the bank with his next contract. If the cards sign Albert to some ridiculous number they are dooming the team for years to come unless they are willing to increase the payroll, which doesn’t seem likely.
Good for Albert ? Yes, or course. He will put up huge numbers as the team will be built for him to do that. And he’ll get paid huge amounts of money to do that.
Good for the cardinals ? I don’t see it. Albert put up huge numbers this year the first half of the season and the team was in second place before the DeRosa and Holliday trades.
Cards fans will get to see Albert play in St. Louis for the remainder of his career but will not see too many playoff appearances for the cards. Albert will put up huge numbers every year, fans will speak of his greatness, and will continually kill BD because the team isn’t winning.
Thats why they pay Mo the big money……….to make these types of calls.
Brian’s mention of the possibility Albert gets better never gets talked about. No one should be all that surprised if he came away with a triple crown, MVP and gold glove, and generally put up the best numbers yet. It would be a beautiful thing to see. I wonder what George of the (concrete) Jungle would think if Albert demanded a chunk of ownership to go there. Albert might like being one of the guys who signs A-Rods checks and tells him how much ‘We’ value his contribution, hand out gift cards around the clubhouse on holidays.
I really don’t think Albert will improve on his numbers. It seems impossible to get any better than he is now, which is in unchartered waters for a baseball player in their first nine years in the Bigs.
No, I believe Albert is fixing to enter into the Bonds zone, where he gets walked at record rates the next part of his career. And if the same system remains in place in St. Louis, which I can’t see it changing, it seems a stretch to think Albert could win a triple crown with all of those walks.
bb, players can neither own team shares nor negotiate for a future ownership stake.
RC, the average player peaks at between 29 and 30. That is right where Pujols sits now. He is not average, but to suggest that it is impossible for him to still improve seems counter intuitive, especially if his elbow is healthy. I am not necessarily expecting it, nor am I dismissing its real possibility.
One tactic: the Cards could offer Albert $30MM/yr for the next 7 years. This would replace his 2010-11 contracts and give him an extra $28MM during those years, a lot of incentive. Give him an opt out after 5 years, in case he wants to wind down his career somewhere else.
He could start being among the highest paid players in 2010.
The Cards have done well financially with Franklin. They signed him for $1MM in 2007 and he was a pleasant surprise. The Cards rewarded him with a two year extension, since they like rewarding good performance. Franklin is not greedy for the last dollar and likes working with Duncan, so its a good match. Franklin saved 35 plus games last year, for a cheap salary in relation to a lot of other closers.
Last winter, some fans were ready to hand the closer job to Jason Motte. Jason got rocked on opening day, while Franklin had a great 2009.
The Cards right now have a golden opportunity to reduce those walks and increase the chance of that triple crown. Albert isn’t publicly doing anything to make that happen but that doesn’t mean he isn’t doing anything at all. We will see.
Bling, you are right. I heard that Albert started his winter workouts this week and you can bet he will be ready to go in 2010.
Jumbo, I have written before about the thought of increasing Pujols’ salary the next two years as part of a new deal. What led me there was the possibility of the Cardinals needing to take action to ensure a newly-resigned Holliday isn’t the highest-paid player on the team. When they were trying to sign Jason Schmidt to a big deal three years ago, they extended Carpenter before they needed to – reportedly at least partially with the same thought in mind – to not disrespect the established star by paying the new guy more.
As has been discussed here about Pujols, one would think that he would expect to remain on top of the team’s salary heap. So if the Cardinals somehow actually manage to land Holliday, I would expect ownership to make a specific offer to Albert if for no other reason than to demonstrate respect.
I don’t think there is any way that the cardinals could sign Holliday and pay him more than Albert. I don’t think Albert would be happy if that happened. There is little doubt in my mind that the talk of the new contract for Albert was initiated by the cardinals to show Albert that if Hollday were to be signed that the cards wanted Albert to be paid more than was Holliday.
That being said, I believe Albert knows that Holliday isn’t going to sign with the cardinals and so the point of extending Albert this year became moot if the extension was to keep him the highest earning player on the cards. So Albert came out with his comments about not worrying about him and worrying about building the 2010 team.
Increasing the salary during the next two seasons is about the strongest financial tactic the Cards have, in their repertoire of possbilities, with Pujols. No other team can give him $28MM more.
After 2004, the Red Sox wanted Renteria, dumped Cabrera, and the Cards wound up with the displaced Eckstein. The same thing could happen this year. The Red Sox want Holliday. If Holliday wants to play for their higher salary, the Cards could wind up with Jason Bay.
RC, the initiation of talks concerning Albert is likely disconnected from an offer to Holliday. The Cards want to extend Albert. Period. It is the paramount concern of the business.
This off-season would be a good time to work out a super deal for Albert.
Speaking of winter workouts, I wonder if MM has started up his clinic yet. It’s not beyond imagination to think he would be in contact with his buddy Matt, even if Boras wouldn’t let them work out for obvious reasons.
Brian, in the hypo what do you think would happen if Albert said Yes I want the extra money these next two years and no I don’t want to talk about beyond that yet?
SS Solano and RHP Brandon Dickson are two of the likelier possibilities to be drafted under Rule 5 by another team. Doubt it will happen, but shortstops are useful and Dickson did well at AA and has a stronger arm than Hearne.
bb, I believe that any offer of more money in 2010-2011 for Albert would be hard-wired to an extension. It wouldn’t surprise me for someone to suggest cherry-picking, but the Cards would be foolish to consider it.
“One tactic: the Cards could offer Albert $30MM/yr for the next 7 years. This would replace his 2010-11 contracts and give him an extra $28MM during those years, a lot of incentive. Give him an opt out after 5 years, in case he wants to wind down his career somewhere else.”
Did you really think this through Jumbo? With the opt out you are effectively giving Pujols $39+ million per for 2012-2014 or $34 million per for 2012 -2016. If that is what it takes to sign Albert I hope Mo is on the phone with Boston as we speak working on getting Lester and about 4-5 top prospects.
“CC, you have the downside covered well, but apparently you see no upside, like the chance that Pujols actually improves as he is in his prime years…”
ah, but the question was not a question of average or even expected salary but of the chance of his worth going down. they are different questions and I am addressing the one you did originally not one that involves upside.
I do think the chance of much upside is pretty remote unless you assume he’s been hurting the last few years and is now healthier than he’s ever been.
The ‘DeRosa would go to Japan rather than re-up’ comment is an eyebrow raiser, even given the inside scoup on the clubhouse dynamic that’s been shared.
RC “DeRosa wasn’t coming back to St. Louis if he had to go play in Japan, which we all know wasn’t going to happen, was the word I got. Damn that clubhouse (smileyface)”
Some people might think that’s a rather abrasive comment RC, sometimes the messenger catches some flack however true the message. Thanks for being willing to tell it like it is without worrying about that sort of thing. Hopefully, you’ll pass out flack-jackets over the hollidays.
A fine thread boys. Substance aplenty and logic abounds.
Colby loved the DeRo addition and I have stated many times that Colby has spoken highly of him as a teammate. My impression is that DeRo plays the game with a youthful exuberance and that may not be a good fit on this team.
I believe Colby has referenced the clubhouse to be like a funeral home before DeRo arrived and that he learned more from him than any other player this year about how to play the game the right way. Colby has asked me more than once who DeRo had signed with. And I said one time, the cardinals, and Colby laughed and said, I know that ain’t happening, but I wish.
Now Bling, I don’t think that saying that I think DeRo will end up somewhere else is a knock on the cardinals. I have stated hundreds of times that every player doesn’t fit into the business like approach to the game that the cardinals players enjoy. Some would rather play the game like it was a game, not like attending a daily funeral procession. Some players have no choice while others may be able to choose a more exciting venue in which they can play the game.
DeRosa would be darned useful to a team with a rookie 3rd baseman and left fielder. Can’t have guys like that preferring the Canned Hams or whatever they call themselves over there, to the Cards. Can’t trade top prospects for rentals every year, can’t win with the Gotay’s of the world. If we are to compete, something’s gotta give.
If Carp and Waino remain healthy, and Lohse rebounds then the cards will have 3 top of the line starters going for them. Albert will be the monster he is and I trust Tony will mix and match some of the youngsters with a few free agent senior citizens and the team should win 90 + games in 2010.
Now you are right, the cards blew their wad last year in terms of prospects so there probably won’t be any Holliday type pickups this year, or even a DeRosa pickup. But you can count on the same type of production from most of the guys and Albert will have to blow up again, and most likely will.
RC. You’re info on DeRosa will be put to the test today, If it’s as you say, the Cards risk nothing at all by offering Arbitration, his rejection of it is a certainty. We’ll see. Unless you know something they don’t.
I think Mo is in total agreement with you. He has told us that if he doesn’t sign Matt, the emphasis will be on pitching. Of course, he didn’t give us the backstory on why.
Maybe one of those toothless geezers will turn out to be a Larry Walker or a Will Clark. Too bad we don’t have any Ernie Broglios to trade.
RC-…It is my contention that if BD wants Albert to stay in St. Louis it may not matter if BD like Oquendo or not, only if Albert wants him as manager or not.
The characteristics of Tony/Albert’s dialog and tactics in dealing with BD/Mo don’t seem to be all that direct to me RC. The Kennedy assassination comes to mind as a good example. Tony want something, BD wanted something. Tony gave his best baseball analysis of Schumacher’s likely hood of overcoming Adam in an open competition. They were determined to add Colby at any cost. Duncan was protected………Even though they tried to off him to Colorado and SD earlier, Schu was still there. Tony was sure that he had forced them to spend. The capped Kennedy and went with the Shu to second strategy. They didn’t spend a dime, even though they lost 4 million. Thats not thrift. Thats carefully staying with in privilege and Role playing. They made it clear that in their sacrifice, Tony would take responsibility for it. The rest is history. We survived. Tony survived, and the game goes on. Some here are aware that the Cardinals poisoned the MH negotiations months ago. BD/Mo knows where they’re heading.
“Some here are aware that the Cardinals poisoned the MH negotiations months ago.”
This is the first I’ve heard of this. What’s the story?
CC, its only money and its only DeWitt’s, not mine. Its going to take some moola to get Albert done.
BB, I love the Gotay signing. The new Barden. WCBW will go wild.
Also love the resigning of LaRue. Just what we needed. Get LaRue into more games next year as a pinch-runner for Yadier.
I hope we offer DeRosa and Pineiro arbitration, to collect draft picks.
Freese can handle 3B. DeRosa is yesterday’s hero. Some other team will give him $5MM. We wish him well.
Before the Colorado series in Denver, the Cardinals announced the suspension of talks with Holiday, Lou. Since there had been no conversations between Mo and Boras, one might assume that this was intended to imply that they were going behind his back, talking directly to Matt. At least a major provocation, for no special reason. It made Mo seem interested, and any denial by Scottie would have been an admission that he was being left out or talked around. That’ll stir the pot.
Good call Jumbo. I didn’t believe that Piniero would be offered. I think he has to accept.
I am encouraged…………… it is obvious that the pressure exerted by this board, is what turned the tide………………………. This seriously accelerates the market offers for said players to boot. Joel is looking at 9/10 large where he might have been pressured later. His agent will be busy for the next week. Phillies and the Cubs will have to get off the pot on DeRosa. He is looking at 6/6.5 I would think. Don’t forget, you cant loose money in arbitration, so he is guaranteed 5.5. Knowing this, and the huge FA list in 2011, I guess interested teams now have an offer to work off of…………… Joel might be superstitious about D Duncan so he is the likely detainee.
All right! Way to show stones, Mo!
I am really surprised, but in a positive way.
TCNB readers knew earlier today that the Cards were likely to offer DeRosa, since he will certainly not accept. More interesting is Piniero. Mo has said that plan B is beef up pitching. Well, if Joel stays, that gives us a potentially killer rotation. I hope this doesn’t mean Mo has moved to that Plan B already.
Jumbo, I’m not sure if a Puerto Rican guy satisfies Westy’s political correctness observation. I don’t really care for the signing. I understand he’s not good against lefties, not a speedy runner, not too good of a fielder. I can see having him sit at Memphis in case we need an emergency fill in at 2nd or 3rd, but surely we can get better bench guys.
Since the economy is bad and the FA market seems soft, its possible MH and Boarsass would take a one year rain check on signing the big one. That would make Albert the second-highest paid Card next year.
Looking at the list of those who weren’t offered arbitration makes you wanna shake your head BB. Its huge. Next year will be worse. Holiday has waited a long time for the security of the big one. He has went to far to pass up a long term deal. Boras wasn’t surprised by this. Joel and Mark, maybe.
This is a direct shot at the market by the owners. A team that knows what they want could make some fine deals………… these guys may well panic in a herd.
Westie, Players can theoretically have their salaries reduced in arbitration though it seldon happens (would have happened with Glaus).
Holliday will not accept under any circumstances. There is too much chance of the market being even softer next year. Not sure he would get more than Pujols in a 1 year deal anyway. The only 1 year deal in history that I can remember for more would be Bonds (those are the only comparables allowed for arb comparison).
I only see Pineiro returning if there is absolutely no interest. I find that doubful. He is probably better off at 3/24 than 1/9.
The arbitration offers reflect the economy. The outlook is tough for years to come, so the offers are few. Teams will be getting younger and cheaper.
Jason Marquis did not get an offer of arbitration from the Rockies, consistent with the Cards not making an offer after his lousy 2006, when we left him off the playoff roster.
Actually, Marquis was offered arbitration.
Oops. Tim Dierkes was “particularly surprised” about Marquis. He was surprised Jason got an offer, whereas I assumed Jason must not have gotten one.
The Matt Holliday situation should sort itself out, within the next week or two. Since he is the best free agent, the Union will want to see his bidding move along fast, because this helps define the market prices for all the lesser fry.
Epstein with the Red Sox has a great job. He likes to watch what the Cardinals do and react accordingly. He ignored TLR’s disparagement of JD Drew and signed JD to a long term deal. Drew has a chronically bad shoulder, so this deal has not been fantastic for the Sox, but it has been ok. The Cards wanted to retain Renteria, so Epstein outbid them. Now the Cards want to retain Holliday. Accordingly, Epstein will outbid them for Holliday. Its that simple.
The Sox can give Holliday 6 years at $21MM/yr, something like that. Last winter, after losing out on Texeira, the Sox said they would not deal with Boras again; this was a corporate lie.
Jason Bay will be liberated to the market. The Cards were interested in Bay during 2008, before traded to the Sox. The Cards will be interested in Bay again. Bay is older than Holliday, so should command a shorter deal, 3 or 4 years. The Mets and Angels could be competitors for Bay.
During bidding on vet free agents, the Cards tend to be flexible price takers, rather than price setters. I cannot recall the last time they purchased a top of the market free agent.
If the Cards cannot land Holliday or Bay, then they will look around the market for the best return on investment. Its hard to foresee who this will turn out to be.
December will be all about the Holliday and Bay biddings. Maybe we will get into bidding on Dye too, if we lose out on Matt and Jason.
Mo has to have a very complicated free agent bidding decision tree of “what if, then…” scenarios. For instance, what if Bay signs with the Mets, then the Cards could acquire two lesser guys.
JS, Epstein is highly overrated, IMHO. He makes big mistakes, but just buys his way out of them. BTW, your spin on history is a bit slanted. Drew joined Boston after two years with the Dodgers, so any TLR perspectives were very old news by then. I do agree it is a bad contract, but more often than not, Boras finds someone to overpay.
In Pineiro’s case, the Cardinals benefited from another Boston mistake. Same with Smoltz and Lugo. There have been others.
I believe the last time the Cardinals signed a Type A free agent was in the winter of 2001-2002. They gave up their first two picks in the 2002 draft after signing Jason Isringhausen and Tino Martinez. With the possibility of four comp picks this year, they can potentially afford to sign another Type A free agent and still help replenish the farm system. I am encouraged by this.
Lots of Boston’s moves are intrinsically big. It goes with the territory for a high spending team. Therefore, some moves will backfire in a big way. But because there is always the big budget, it is easy to reload.
Unfortunately, Boston is also very good in terms of scouting and development, eg, Pedroia, Papelbom, Masterson, Bucholz, Hanley Ramirez. Boston is formidable, since it can spend mega bucks on veterans like Holliday and can invest on amateurs as well.
My Drew history was not spin. I did not go into details, such as our steal of Adam Wainwright from the Braves for JD; the scout who signed Wainwright unsurprisingly was recruited to Boston, Rob English, IIRC. The Dodgers made an informed decision on JD, Boras made an informed decision to exercise a player option and Epstein made an informed decision to sign Drew. We may not quite agree it was a bad contract. It was an expensive contract for Boston, but Boston enters such deals much more frequently than the Cards. JD popped one HR to put the Sox over the top in a WS win, maybe it was 2007. Boston probably gets about what they expected out of Drew. Now they have added Heredia as a cheap understudy, a move that could payoff big.
Should of tryed for Wagner. We need a strrike out guy and possibly a closer before its all said and done. Need a set up guy now anyway, Franklin could’ve done that nicely. Woulda been awesome. What’s $7Mil.
One of the personnel needs for 2010 is a left swinging corner OF who can slug. Ludwick did not impress during the back half of the 2009 season. If the Cards do not land Holliday, Bay, or Dye, then what? The team is right-heavy with Pujols, Ludwick, SS, catcher, Freese.
Boston grabbed Heredia already. The Angels resigned Bobby Abreu. Free agent Garrett Anderson is 38+. There is not a lot out there, save Ankiel. By January, some ML team will hope Rick can strengthen his right shoulder and rebound in 2010.
Johnny Damon may be the top left swinging LF veteran available. I am unsure how much the new Yankee Stadium inflated Damon’s batting stats. Damon is a Boras client. The Cards and Boras know how to do business. Will we land Damon or the cheaper, younger Ankiel?
Only time will tell.
Jumbo said: “Will we land Damon or the cheaper, younger Ankiel?”
My prediction is neither. There may be other and better ways to meet the need – if the perceived need truly exists and is deemed to be a priority.
(P.S. It is Jeremy HERMIDA and he was not a free agent. He is simply one of many arbitration-eligible three-to-six year players like Ludwick who was traded earlier in the off-season. There are other Hermidas out there if that is what is desired. Some of them may be non-tendered in a couple of weeks and be available for nothing. Felix HEREDIA was a reliever a few years back.)
bb said: ” Should of tryed for Wagner. We need a strrike out guy and possibly a closer before its all said and done. Need a set up guy now anyway, Franklin could’ve done that nicely. Woulda been awesome. What’s $7Mil.”
Uh, you mean $7M plus a vesting option for 2011 plus your first-round draft pick for a 38-year-old, injury-prone closer. Pass.
Can’t argue with Brian’s position, but we need options for the set-up/closer situation that we don’t have now, just ask Wainy. That won’t be painless. Franklin, Smoltz, Wagner to handle those roles between them had appeal. Nobody gets overworked and runs out of gas, righty/lefty options/K ability/experience. Oh well, we’ll see what Mo comes up with.
Jumbo, don’t forget that a bat at third is a possibility given the lack of outfielders. Glaus may not get much interest in the market, but maybe he’s one of those guys who wouldn’t come back, or who wouldn’t be welcome back, at any price. I don’t know. As far as I know, there’s no reason to think he won’t be healthy, at least on opening day.
P. S. JS did not state Hermida was a free agent. After 05, Hermida was one of the most touted prospects, placing 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, and 5th, among contributors to Baseball America’s prospect handbook. Hermida went 11th in the nation out of a Georgia high school in 02′s draft. Epstein has gotten a good aged lefty swinging corner OF with a few years of ML hitting experience. If Drew’s chronic shoulder goes out, Epstein has an available replacement at a much lower price.
Epstein is reported to have rubbed antlers with Scottie B about Ankiel. I am willing to believe the rumor, but doubt it is strong interest, since Boston has acted to add corner OF depth. Epstein is thinking about 2011 perhaps. David Ortiz slumped early in 2009 and Drew has a chronic shoulder, so Hermedia was added for 2010. Boston did not want to wait around in hopes one of the “other Hermidas out there” would be discarded. Boston has the budget to be an aggressor.
After 06 or 07, the Cards made positive noises about Luis Gonzalez as a platoon OF; a Larry Walker or John Smoltz type signing, distinguished vet mentor and part-timer. Luis was in his late 30s. However, Luis lucked into a $6.5MM deal, maybe the free spending Dodgers. With the McCourts now in divorce court, Damon could be a possibility. Circa 34, drives in 75 runs per year. Could platoon with Craig in LF. Jon Jay could give Ludwick some days off against RHPS and also serve as a backup CF.
So if the Cards lose out on Holliday, Bay, and Dye, and choose not to gamble on Ankiel, then they could try a Damon/Craig platoon, and also look to invest in either a starting pitcher like Randy Wolf or a closer. Ankiel would be cheaper and if he could regain strength in his right shoulder, he can outslug Damon. So by January, the Cards could be chatting with Boras about Rick.
Jumbo lumped free agents and non-free agents together, stating there are a limited number of options that seem to be shrinking away. With the non-tender date still ahead of us, the reality is precisely the opposite. Too many possible directions the Cardinals could go to get too wound up over the various scenarios.
BB, it would not make sense for Glaus to stay in the NL, because even he does not know if he can continue to handle 3B. I would expect him to sign with an AL team that could use 3B depth, but can also have room for Troy at DH or 1B, if it turns out his days at 3B are over.
Agree. Glaus should return to the AL.
I like the early moves by the Cards. Jason LaRue returns for year 3 at backup catcher. This also sends a signal that we expect more from Bryan Anderson than seen during 2009 at Memphis.
Gotay gives us useful depth at Memphis, reminds me of signing Royce Ring, Ostlund, and another southpaw last winter. Gotay adds a AAAA player where we can use one. There has to be a plausible hope of roster space or we would not waste his time with an offer. Gotay is a nephew of a Cards infielder during the 1960s. The Cards pay attention to family ties. Mo must have loved finding Gotay as a job applicant.
Glaus has lots of reasons to return to the NL.
.280/25/90 as a DH = $4-$5 million per
.280/25/90 as an above avg defensive 3B = $7-$8 million per
I’m sure Glaus thinks he can still play good D. Why risk going to the AL where a team might stick you at DH.
Wagner was never a possibility at any price – he wants to close and Tony/Mo aren’t changing horses right now.
CC, Glaus has reasons to want to return to the NL perhaps, but he is not the one making the offers. If I am an NL GM, I would never offer $7M-$8M for a major injury risk like Glaus knowing he could end up being nothing more than a very-overpriced pinch-hitter and/or spend part of the year riding the DL.
Since 2003, Glaus has averaged 104 games per season. In other words, he has missed over one third of his teams’ games over a seven-year period despite the fact that he played in the AL during four of those seasons where the DL spot was an option for him. Now he is even older with more injury problems. An NL GM would be very foolish to sign Glaus unless he is a real bargain.
CC, Glaus either can play 3B or he cannot play 3B. For the Cards in 09, he could not. Maybe Glaus’ shoulder can improve by next year, but the only thing that is sure is that its uncertain. Its doubtful an NL team is going to hand him a $8MM job at 3B for next year. Mulder may get one sooner.
Going to an AL team gives Mr. Glaus more options. If his shoulder will not enable him to play 3B, then he can still DH or play 1B.
The Cards have Freese, Greene, Lugo, Gotay, Mather. No reason for the Birds to offer Troy more than $500K, plus incentives, but he might get $3MM up front, plus incentives, in the AL. If he does not sign with the AL, his agent should be fired.
Brian, you are right from a GM perspective. From Glaus’ perspective he might do better long term to accept a lower offer this year to play 3B in the NL.
Jumbo – who says Glaus could not play 3B for the Cards in ’09. Didn’t and couldn’t are entirely different.
Glaus will make more than $3 million next year – bank on it! (though it won’t be from the Cards)
CC, Glaus labored for months on shoulder rehab. He ended up starting about 2 games in September for the Cards and he or TLR offered some muted statements about his abilities there. He has a real difficulty having the throwing arm strength to handle the position game in game out. Maybe continued exercise and lots of prescription HGH can get him back, but so far, its been a difficult, slow, painful struggle for him.
Agreements require the consent of two parties. Glaus would probably be happy to say yes to an offer from an NL team to play 3B at a market price for someone with his trackrecord. Sadly, owing to his injury woes, he will not get one.
For contrast, K. Greene did not have the morale to play SS any longer, though has not physical injury to overcome. Glaus was unable to play 3B. He is not going to see a big offer to play 3B in 2009, anymore than Khalil is going to get big offers for SS.
I believe Mo said Glaus was fully recovered and could play 3B. He wouldn’t mislead us.
Tony played Troy at 3B in 8 games. He wouldn’t play him there if he wasn’t capable. I know this because Tony said so.
By definition, Arbitration is a resolution of conflict. It begins on the premise that a team paying a salary, which has already established a market value in the prior years, can’t reach agreement on future relationship to a player. The last years contract is undeniable the market minimum. The player can except less before he goes in the door, thus have a guaranteed contract. If the Arbiter decides, it is always equal or more than the last salary. The vulnerability for the player is that the team can opt out of this agreement in Spring Training with only a percentage penalty. First year arbitrations are a bit different in that there is a wider range of established opinions on value to be resolved.
Brian, Boston is a different world. Chemistry is the only way they can win. Look how many 1st baggers they tried this year, some for only weeks. Epstein has a tough job. The way Holiday came in here and whooped it up until the sulker cooled him down, he might be there man. Doubt it. They want Albert in the worst way. The will sign Bay, and wait.
I’m not a huge fan of Glaus. His actions last winter left me feeling he was a me type of player and I have not heard anything from players to dissuade me from those thoughts. He couldn’t catch up with a 90 mph heater at the end of last year so why was he even trying to play? He was pitiful.
WC -”The way Holiday came in here and whooped it up until the sulker cooled him down, he might be there man. Doubt it. They want Albert in the worst way. The will sign Bay, and wait.”
The sulker, who pray tell is that?
Do I hear a Albert to Boston prediction?
And no Holliday to Boston?
WC, do you see Holliday coming back to St. Louis?
CC, do you have a cite as to when Mo said Glaus was “fully recovered.” I doubt TLR or Glaus ever ventured such an opinion. At one point, Glaus got tried in LF during his minor league rehab period, because so useless for 3B. Then Holliday was acquired to play LF, so the Cards were left with Glaus for 3B.
RCW, I agree Glaus was “pitiful.” You ask why Troy was on the playoff roster, since IMO he was a useless pinch-hitter and non-available 3Bman?
This is an interesting question. I guess its a matter of etiquette, inside the Clubhouse or in terms of the players Union or with the Commissioner. The Cards clearly preferred useless Glaus over the same guy who they are thinking of handing 3B for 2010, David Freese. Freese slugged a homer in his few late season at bats and was clearly the better player than useless Troy.
We prefer not to throw a rookie into the fire and to go with the sure fire loser, Glaus. We did this in the 2005 Division Series as well, going with Reggie Sanders in the final game over John Rodriquez. Its the safe decision, because if you put some rookie out there and he makes an error, the team gets criticized. However, if you send the multi-million dollar veteran out there and he whiffs, as we all know he will, its Troy’s fault or Reggie’s, not Tony’s. Its called cover your backside. TLR has been around a long time in a dangerous job and he knows how to survive.
WC said: “Epstein has a tough job.”
I suppose one could say that all MLB GMs have a tough job, but relatively speaking, no, I think Epstein’s job is much easier than say, the GM in Seattle who lacks the name-brand franchise and deep-pocketed ownership backing him up.
Glaus is not old and not dumb, or at least his agent isn’t. He’s not getting a big long term deal this winter, so his career probably depends on what happens in spring training and the early part of the season. He will be in high gear workout mode this winter unless he’s just done. After being laid up so long its not surprising he couldn’t catch up to a fastball, and his arm strength seemed ok. He’s one of those risky plays that can pay off big for somebody.
A me guy? Maybe in the same way Rolan was a me guy to some.
K Green is a $4Mil lesson learned in what happens when the wrong kind of guy is tossed into the clubhouse environment we’ve heard about. Some guys don’t want to handle it, some guys can’t and some guys really can’t. $4Mil probably made the lesson sink in.
BB: Khalil was paid $6.5MM in 2009 by the Cards, fyi. His psychological problems came out of the closet during the 2008 season. The Padres tried not to pay out the final quarter of his salary, because he injured himself not in the line of baseball duty, making the GM mad. So Khalil’s emotional difficulties in 2009 owed NOTHING to the Cards clubhouse.
Nor is it established that the Cards Clubhouse is worse than others. Do not believe all you read, at this web site. For instance, in Houston, the GM and a player got into a wrestling match, precipitated by rudeness from the GM. Both player and GM should have been booted for conduct unbecoming.
Glaus only played in about two September games at 3B, IIRC, even though on the roster. If Glaus could not catch up to a fastball, which was abundantly demonstrated, what was he doing on the playoff roster, while the guy Mo plans to use next year was on an inactive list? This is RCW’s question? Maybe you and CC assume this means Glaus was 100 percent. If so, your assumption was incorrect. Glaus was useless and we elected to go with the “celebrity” name, instead of a healthy ballplayer who is unknown.
Its no big deal. It probably happens all the time around baseball. Its inside baseball. The Union and/or the Commissioner do not want a famous guy on the DL, while some unknown lad gets to play, merely because he is physcially able to play.
If the unknown lad makes an error or outshines the star, either way MLB does not want to see it. The unknown lad would make MLB look bad, either way.
Though we had to keep Troy on the post-season roster, we will not make him an offer. We have no interest in him for even one more measly at bat. He did his bit to make 2009 a struggle and we had to trade Perez and Todd to make up for the gap. It steams Mo and DeWitt.
In the same way, during the final game of the 2005 Division Series, we started Reggie Sanders, who was completely blown away during the game. Then we let Reggie walk, with nary an offer.
The inside baseball rule is to play the well known name, for the playoffs, even when he is physically shot. If the decrepit vet can still put on a uniform, he plays. This is the rule.
Brian, when you suggest Epstein has a relatively easy job, you are correct. Boston has the budget to buy high salary veterans; spend $8MM on a slick fielding Cuban SS or $104MM on D-Mat; and can afford lots of top scouts. They have the resources to win at every aspect of the game.
Seattle may not have Boston’s budget, but it is still a pretty high spending team. It should be a good franchise for a GM who is smart. Things should work out in due course for the new GM, Z-whatever.
Jumbo, you got a bit rambling there, but it seems ridiculous if you are actually suggesting MLB tells teams who they can roster and who they cannot within the rules. Glaus was considered physically able, so could not be DLed for the post-season in favor of Freese, who was not on the roster in time otherwise. That’s the rule. All the rest is conjecture.
I’m glad Jumbo is back to his old, humerous self.
He thinks 29 AB’s against guys who have been playing all year is a large enough sample size to make sweeping generalizations about Glaus’ health.
He thinks the Union and Commissioner’s office tell Mo who to put on his playoff roster.
I’m waiting anxiously for the punch line.
I’ll concede on Glaus but not KG, maybe he was on the edge but he got some help going over.
Talk is talk, I agree, but the Cards did offer Arb to a guy whose job has already been handed to someone else. That’s real. The clubhouse related reason why Mo would feel comfortable doing so is the best and only sound reason I’ve heard. I don’t believe it involved Mo ‘showing stones’ as Nut posted. Quite the opposite, Mo knows what would happen to his Freese plays third plan if Tony has DeRosa on the roster. Lesson learned. If there was any possibility of DeRosa taking it, it wouldn’t have been offered. Also, while I feel no need to kow-tow to a well positioned and knowledgeable person’s pronouncements and opinions, I wouldn’t just ‘not believe’ without any good reason, or any reason at all. If you have one, lets hear it.
Well, Derosa can play other positions and assuming holliday declines there is also an opening in left. Others wouldn’t mind seeing Derosa at 2nd. If on the off chance he accepts, there are plenty of places for him to play.
Regarding KG, I don’t know if our clubhouse changed his condition but it appears it wasn’t congruent with his condition and it seems poor that mo wouldn’t haven’t realized that in advance.
CC, your observation on DeRosa’s versatility is sound, of course. I tend to forget that. His presense would make it hard for guys like Freese or Craig to get a fair shot, but then again either could flop. Skip could stand sitting out against lefties. Dero would, presumably, be making starter money. Still, I’ll stick with the belief that RC’s clubhouse dynamic thing is right on absent any reason not to , as well as DeRosa’s preference of the japanese canned hams over returning to it. I’m also assuming that if RC knew about DeRo’s position, so did Mo.
CC assumes a guy who he says had 29 at bats is now healthy, because he thinks Mo said this, or he believes Glaus will be healthy next year and is thus entitled to the salary of someone who took 600 plate appearances. With a heavy heart, I must admit to thinking otherwise.
I am more on the wavelength of RCW. Glaus stunk in 2009. He showed he had nothing during his minor league trial and then backed it up by showing nothing in the majors during September and October. It was no fluke. Glaus would probably be the first to admit, he was injured, but he could get into a uniform and then he was lousy.
Regarding Khalil…..
He had a great 2007, then he had a lousy 2008 and there were hard feelings by the team. Mo and maybe TLR figured how messed up can he be, between the ears? TLR is good at helping guys rebound. He does it all the time. Whatever is wrong, we can make it better. So they gambled that K. Greene was fixable. Nothing wrong with him physically and he just needed to improve his confidence and get back on track. It turned out: Khalil was a young man with troubles. While there are many in this world, and this is not an insurmountable situation, but its hard to fix in the public spotlight of ML sports. I sure wish Khalil all the best and I hope he can start over and work his way back.
Should Mo have been able to foresee this? I don’t know. I would take a chance on a guy who is physically sound and seemed to need a change of scenery. There is no such thing as a perfect psychological exam. The Cards can give Mateo an eye exam and identify a physical problem. Hard to do with the spirit, heart, and psyche. Mo took a reasonable gamble and it did not work out. You win some, you lose some.
And no I do not think that the Union and Commissioner formally tell teams who to put on their playoff rosters. That would truly be ridiculous.
I said there is an issue of Inside Baseball. There are unwritten rules and reasonings. The Cards like to go with veterans in the playoffs. Larry Walker played the playoffs in 2005 with cortisone shots to ward off the unplayable pain of a slipped disk in his spine. In some other sports or for other teams, he would have been on the DL. But Larry and Tony deemed him playable.
Glaus showed he was a lousy shadow of himself during minor league rehab stints and then in St Louis in September. But he and the Cards decided he was healthy enough to play. He made two appearances against the Dodgers. Two for two, two Ks in two ABs.
I’m not going to go back and look it up unless there is something in it for me ($$$
) but I’m sure both Tony and Mo said that Glaus was healthy. Actually it hurts your other argument to say he wasn’t because it may mean as he recovers with time he may very well be an excellent 3B by the Spring.
Saying the Cards like to go with veterans is totally different than an unwritten rule that permeates baseball as you implied. One has nothing to do with the other.
I think over time Mo will learn and understand more about organizational fit. He will figure out what kind of player plays well for Tony and what kind doesn’t. What kind of player can be a good second fiddle to Albert and what kind can’t. At least I hope he improves in this area.
BB, I dont understand your questions or comments about DeRosa.
Here is the deal. DeRosa got acquired as a fill-in for Glaus. Then DeRosa got injured and more offense was needed, so we added Holliday.
However DeRosa is generally not going to be the kind of guy the Cards actively pursue as an off-season free agent. He is currently too hot and trendy in the market, so he is going to command a bit more money than the Cards are going to want to pay out, for a guy with his skills. DeRosa did well with the Cubs and the Cubs needed to assign blame for last year’s decline, so the loss of DeRosa is a good contributing explanation. The Cubs alone are going to bid DeRosa up. But DeRosa is at a pinnacle right now. He is 34, he is going to be coming back to earth in future, possibly like our old chum Aaron Miles had a crash in 2009. Few excel every year and the Cards prefer guys coming off a down year in the free agent market than a trendy guy who is overpriced.
I dont understand Nut’s comment about Mo showing stones. DeRosa is going to get a couple of years, maybe $8MM for the two (depending on the market in a tough economic outlook, with more decline to come). Mo is confident DeRosa will leave for a bigger money, so Mo wanted to offer arbitration to gain a draft pick. If DeRosa agrees to arbitration, then we like him and can use him. But if he declines arbitration, we like the draft pick. Either way, Mo wins. Its not guts, its low risk.
There is nothing about the Clubhouse “mood” that enters the picture. Its all maximizing your team for both next year and the future, by using money carefully.
Freese was injured last January in an auto accident. He tried to play through, but stunk, so needed an operation. After that, he excelled at Memphis. Freese is now good to go for next year, which he was not this year. The Cards are not going to just hand Freese the position. But the Cards will not invest discretionary budget in DeRosa either. Its not about stones, its simply about spending money wisely.
I am not sure what the discussion is, but here are some Glaus snippets after his shoulder was supposedly ok.
Aug 29: Glaus turned ankle with Memphis
Aug 31: Ankle examined by Paletta
Sep 1: Activated by StL
Sep 13: Strained an oblique muscle on a swing
Sep 29: Returned to action. His quote; “I’m the wrong guy to ask. I don’t write out the lineup card. I feel fine. I’m ready to play,” Glaus said. “If they choose to put me in there, they do. If they don’t, they don’t. That I can’t control.”
The guy was injured twice more in the final month, for Pete’s sake. Let’s let him go…
CC, its entirely possible that Mo and Tony said Glaus was healthy.
I recall you once were interested in Global Warming or ethanol or something. I told you, straight up, its all nonsense, smoke the weed, dopey arguments to justify Big Government and to help politicians and win government funding. Now there is ClimateGate, with evidence of scientific fraud.
In other words, it is reasonable not to take everything said at face value. I don’t lap up everything said by the Cards, even though Brian wants to brand me as a Cardinals apologist.
Glaus was healthy enough to put on a uniform against the Dodgers. Was he healthy enough to do anything useful on a baseball field? No. He was healthy and Mo/Tony are honest. But was he healthy and effective? No, Jumbo and RCW are honest too.
Jumbo said: “I dont understand Nut’s comment about Mo showing stones.”
My interpretation was that he was pleased by the Cardinals offering arbitration to both Pineiro and DeRosa to get the draft picks despite the risks. I was not alone in predicting that would not happen. Matthew Leach was among those equally surprised.
Well, if you think i was arguing the opposite of you in the Ethanol thread your memory is failing you – but we’ll leave that to another forum.
Brian, I do not know what you predicted. I may have predicted arbitration to Pineiro and DeRosa, but I write enuf nonsense, so can’t recall, for sure. DeRosa and Pineiro are not bad guys to get back, if they chose arbitration. However, they probably can do better elsewhere and we can always use more draft picks. Luhnow and the scouts love getting more picks. The Cards are a conservatively run team. Offering arbitration to D and P was a conservative, prudent decision. Its a heads we win, tails somebody else loses choice.
If the Rockies were interested in trading Brad Hawpe, who is costly, he might be another option for a left swinging corner OF, discussed earlier.
MLB Trade Rumors has the Mariners and Red Sox interested in Rich Hardin. This makes sense. The Cards could have interest in him too, depending on how things unfold for the 4th starter slot.
If Pineiro leaves, Hardin would be a reasonable gamble. The Cards once chased hard after Burnett, before he signed with the Jays. The Cards like guys who throw hard, if they can obtain one.
Unfortunately, Hardin is trendy, given a manly fastball, and the Cards are unlikely to win any bidding war with the Red Sox. For anybody.
Wow what a thread……… For a guy supposedly in rehab for 6 months ,Glaus had no legs. He was rusty at the plate. And, he was a world series MVP with reason to have appetites and experience.
Of course that would be Tony’s choice………..Troy is gone. DeWitt is back on schedule.
Kahlil Green…………….. I’ve written about this endlessly. His diagnosis of anxiety disorder was for the public…………….. his condition was older and much worse. His scaring on the arms was very bad and very old……… serious tracks for all Dr’s to see. He served a purpose which was defeated by the Cardinals in contention, a surprise to BD/Mo I’m sure. SD got pissed because he finally disabled himself. They had money problems so they explored remedies through the league office. Cardinals to the rescue. Surely after all that has passed, everyone must recognize that the Cardinals didn’t intend to win in 09. Their transition plans were adjusted. For awhile.
I will get to your ?s shortly RC.
Sure, offering arbitration to DeRosa and Pineiro is a smart move, but the Cardinals backed out on a number of offers in recent years that they probably could have safely made. Especially with many teams out there declining to offer arbitration to their potential free agents, I’m glad to see the Cardinals not let their valuable players walk away for nothing. Plus, with fewer arby offers out there, the supplemental round should be a tad smaller than usual, making each pick worth a bit more.
Gosh, Westie, you have some loo-loo smoke the weed thoughts.
DeWitt and Mo have probably gotten mad about being burned on health issues, like Mulder, Matt Clement, Rolen, Brian Jordan, Chris Duncan, etc. So they have tried to empower Paletta to be more aggressive. He caught the Trevor Miller vulnerability last winter, a good thing. We gave Miller an incentivized deal and he delivered. We like paying for play, not for the DL.
Mo should have made the Greene deal based on a physical. If Paletta missed strange scars on Greene’s skin, he should be given the heave-ho. Maybe by December, Greeene’s scars had cleared up.
Mo and DeWitt are tightening the ship. They did not let Wagner Mateo raid the bank vault, finding out about his injured eye. Khalil slipped by, maybe because the Cards did not suspect his unusual mental issues and gambled on a rebound.
In 2008, the Cards spent $3.6MM on Mitey Cesar Izturis at SS. For 2009, they splurged $6.5MM on Khalil. It turned out to be a bad bet. The only thing we know for sure is that they did not take the cheap pathway, so the idea “the Cards didn’t intend to win in 2009″, is downright dopey.
The Cards insisted Glaus extend for 2009 and spent $11MM on him. He was a no-show, until the end, when, as RCW notes, he stunk. We further invested money and prospects on DeRosa as a fallback, and prospects on a Holliday rental. So the one thing that is crystal clear: Mo really, really wanted to win in 2009 and refused to accept second place.
WC, I most certainly do not recognize that the Cardinals didn’t intend to win in ’09…
Nut, the idea that the Cards have passed up lots of draft picks by declining to offer arbitration is unsound, when considered carefully, with dispassionate reason.
There were about three cases in 2006, but even these are not at all clear-cut, may have inter-related, and the GM was subsequently fired.
In general, the arbitration decisions by the Cards make sense, year after year.
Jumbo,…………………if Troy hits 35 jacks and 120 rbi’s in 08……..he walks. If he stinks, he activates his option. The Cards are in a loose – loose situation. That took his play away, giving themselves a 50/50 chance of having some brains. He’s gone…….let it go.
Nut…….. I’m sure the Cards hoped to do well. Some, which includes me, see the trades of Luddy and Shu to Colorado for Holiday, solving all of their outfield and infield problems. Kennedy at second. The inevitable departure of Holiday in 2010 was guaranteed with the Boras/ Lohse hostilities. They spent 100,000 for Lopez in 08. They didn’t figure to have to make a move in 09 having shot there wad on Holiday………. one issue that few are aware of……..Mo really got burned when the Rockies or Oakland exposed his trade offers…………when he offered either of those same players to SD for Green he insisted on no press leaks. Needless to say SD had one on the hook. At least the players weren’t named anyway. Cards needed a PR signining and Green was their next “bright white convertible” on a one year deal. Same function as Holiday. Pujols rise to dominate in 2009, made them rethink their plans. I’m sure you all wagered heavily on Carp and Franklin to make the All Star team last winter………..The rest is history. Spare me any comments Jumbo.
Actually, Carp did not make the All-Star team, FWIW…
Hell…….. Cy young candidate then…….now I recall. Albert Yadi and Franklin……we lost didn’t we!
Speaking of brains, WCBW, lets focus on mere mundane real world reality.
Glaus had a commitment to play in 2008. He additionally had a players option to play in 2009 at $11MM. The Cards insisted Glaus exercise his option and agree to play during 2009, before they would agree to acquire Glaus from Toronto.
Therefore, the Cards demanded Glaus agree to play for them in 2009 at $11MM. This is hardly the act of a penny-pinching team that aims to lose, as you allege.
Ludwick, Glaus, Lugo. The common thread among these three players is you have very little understanding of economics. You frequently claim DeWitt is cheap and does not wish to compete, yet when there is information to the contrary, like the Cards insisting they get the chance to pay Glaus $11MM, you naturally want to “let it go” because not in keeping with your fantasy.
I don’t intend to intercede in this little squabble, but for the record feel the need to point out that the Cardinals took two years of Glaus to rid themselves of three years of Rolen.
Depending on how much money they spend on third base in 2010, they could end up spending considerably less having traded for Glaus. Specifically, two years of Glaus + one year of Freese < three years of Rolen (~$21M vs. ~$33M). (For completeness, the Cards also will pay a $4M bonus due Rolen in 2010 that would be on both sides of the equation, making it ~$25M vs. ~$37M if you want to count it that way.)
I don’t think DeWitt is cheap, but I do believe he will most probably end up spending less on the position over the last two years plus 2010 having divested himself of Rolen and taken Glaus. The big financial benefit is in 2010 with Glaus off the books and Rolen still under contract. This is my point.
WCBW lives with misunderstandings….
He suggests Holliday would not sign because of Lohse/Boras “hostilities.” In mere mundane reality, Lohse chose to resign with the Cards and there were no hostiliities.
Then there is the fantasy that Mo got “burned” by press reports about the Cards offering Ludwick and Schumaker in trades. Yes, the Cards prefer to be discreet in trade talks. But leaks will happen. Its no big deal. Mo himself talked on the record about being willing to offer Ludwick and Ankiel as trade bait.
Cesar Izturis had an OPS of 630 in 2008. He was terrible with the stick. Mo was willing to gamble on a rebound by Khalil who had a monster 2007. The Cards only gave up Worrell and Gregerson, setup right-handers. They shouldered $2.9MM in salary. While it did not work out, it was NOT a cheap aproach, as WCBW claims. It was an expensive mistake. But life goes on and Khalil’s problem gave a chance to Brendan Ryan.
I am not siding with WC or anyone else, but it is naive to assume we know what is happening among players, their agents and team executives. We simply don’t. Some may have parts of stories from people involved, while others just read blogs and newspaper articles and apply their personal reason. As long as opinions aren’t represented as fact, I generally let them pass. Yet because we were not involved, there is no way to accurately say there were no hostilities as a result of the Lohse situation. We just don’t know.
Brian, you argue that the Cards insisted on adding a year of Glaus, so as to save money on Rolen. Upon reflection, this is uncompelling. The best way to save money would be to simply accept one year of Glaus, if saving money were the foremost consideration.
Scott Rolen came to find TLR unacceptable. Walt tried to negotiate a cease fire in spring training 2007, but this broke down by the end of the 2007 season. Rolen asked Mo and DeWitt for a trade. Mo and DeWitt chose, over the virulent, outspoken objections of Tony, to honor Scott’s request. They did not want the unhappiness in the Clubhouse and they respected Scott. Walt respected Scott, the reason Cinci traded for him in 2009.
The Cards probably did not ask Glaus to agree to a 3rd year at $11MM, because he did them enough of a favor by exercising his option year under his existing contract. When Glaus leaves, as he is doing, this liberates budget for other players. The Cards will spend the money in other ways in 2010.
WCBW understands few financial realities within baseball and frequently blasts the Cardinals for not trying to win and DeWitt being cheap. The Glaus deal is no evidence of this.
No, I said nothing about why the Cardinals asked Glaus to accept his second-year player option. I assume they wanted his services in year two.
Nor did I say they were trying to save money. What I said is that they were trying to get out from under Rolen, which I believe is 100 percent true.
As it worked out, they will probably end up spending less on the third base position having done so, perhaps substantially less in 2010. That seems factual. How that relates to your squabble with WC is between you two.
I would suggest they were not trying to get out from Rolen. TLR was in fact outspoken the Cards should not relinquish Rolen, so getting out from Rolen does not seem accurate.
I was factual in saying Scott became unhappy with TLR. Since the Cards wanted to keep TLR, they had to move Scott. They did not need another headache like the Ozzie/TLR relationship.
I doubt money entered the picture. By trading Rolen, the Cards opened a hole at 3rd. Glaus drew similar pay, so was an easy direct fix for, they hoped, two years.
Jumbo, your drinking………………….. in order to allow the trade from AZ to Toronto, Troy required that another year, a player option year, be added to his contract, at 12 large……………. Before the Cards took him in trade, they demanded that he exercise his player option, taking away his privilege of becoming a FA in 2009 should he have a bang up year in 2008. He would have used it anyway considering his numbers and the market collapse. This way they could trade that year with him if it went down that way. They took control of his option so that they might have a say on how it might be used……period……..it was a player option, not a team option, not a mutual option. Your on the bench for a week.
We seem to be playing word games. The Cardinals had to move Rolen. The situation had become untenable. Of course money was an issue since Rolen was still owed at least $37 million at the time and his declining results due to injury made him overpaid. They had to find a comparable trade partner, which didn’t seem all that likely. Fortunately, Toronto and Glaus emerged as a reasonable fit.
Westie, you can look up Glaus’ contract at this web site.
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/06/free-agent-position-players.html
The situation is simple. Glaus surrendered his freedom in 2009 in order to move from Toronto to St. Louis. He wanted out of Toronto and for this wish to leave he consensually chose to be paid $11.25MM by the Cards in 2009. This was a condition required by the Cards for the trade to go through.
The Cards insisting on shouldering a $11.25MM deal counters your absurd claim that the Cards tried not to win in 2009.
“Rolen’s declining results due to injury made him overpaid.”
Glaus has had an injury-riddled career, recently illustrated by this year’s fiasco. I do not think Rolen’s injuries meant the Cards were trying to get out from under his contract for monetary/performance reasons. If this was the reason, Mo made a bad trade to pick up frequently injured Glaus.
The motivational trigger for the Cards was Rolen was unhappy with TLR. Walt tried to mend the relationship, but TLR precipitated its worsening and then Walt was gone. So for the Cards, the trigger was personalities clashing, not whether Scott’s salary or Glaus’ salary for that matter.
Since the Cards and Jays must have actuarily forecast Rolen would decline in 2010, the Cards agreed to pick up $4MM of Scott’s salary in 2010, with the Jays picking up the residual $7MM. This further indicates relieving financial burden was not much of a factor for the Cards, as it was in moving Jim Edmonds.
The same GM who acquired Scott in St Louis has stayed true to course by reacquiring Rolen, to provide a role model for younger players on the Reds. regardless of declining performance.
RC…….Do I hear a Albert to Boston prediction?
And no Holliday to Boston?
WC, do you see Holliday coming back to St. Louis?
RC…….. the Yankees are two players away from dominating that division for 4 or 5 years. The Yankees relationship to Scottie is well known, as is his track record with Boston. If Boston allows NY to get Holiday, with out bleeding NY of a lot more of their resources, they will be playing against the whole AL for the wild card every year for a long time. Boras knows that. He will help Boston jack it up which will help the Yankees see that ,”Yes we can buy this division”……………..Boston knows that if the Yankees mount one more mega contract, with its luxury tax handicap, they will be the first one out of the Albert sweepstakes. Advantage Boston. Can you envision Tesheira 2nd Jeter leading off. A-Rod and Holiday following. Probably Holiday third. You can’t pitch to that. Holiday will start feeding off those ego’s…… trying to best them. Thats where he wants to be………………Boston will then have to have Pujols just to avoid another 100yr cycle. They know he will likely become available. Albert doesn’t want to be a ticket monkey in St Louis just collecting coins from baseball admirers. He has taken steps to let this happen with the least damage done to the Cardinal organization as possible…..IMO That is our current truce. I feel like saying that if I were BD, and wanted to make some serious baseball money, I trade Albert to NY now…….for MT and 60/80 million dollars in salary compensation. Sign Holiday with the money, and play the Yanks in the WS for those same 4 years, crushing the central and the cubs under my foot……….but hey……thats just me.
Do you know what a player option is bench boy? Troy wanted to keep it. We made it the condition that he expend it while under contract to Toronto. He did. The trade went through. Get back over there by the water cooler.
Jumbo, I am trying to end this discussion, but you seem to keep suggesting I am saying things that I am not.
Rolen had to be traded. The reason was not money. The reason was not his declining performance on the field. The reason he was difficult to trade once the decision was made was the money remaining on his contract, as it was out of sync with his contribution.
I am trying to keep it very simple…
I’m with Westie here. The insistence on exercising the option took away Glaus’ leverage. It was a good financial bet by the Cards. However, we could have eaten some of Rolen’s salary and come out of the deal even cheaper if that was the true goal.
CC, you need to be careful when you find yourself agreeing with Westie.
Here is the deal. Rolen wanted out of StL, Glaus wanted out of Toronto, both played the same position and made a lot of money. The two teams found a way to satisfy both men.
Glaus had a player’s option for 2009. He freely exercised this option, because he wanted out of Toronto ASAP. The Cards would not take him, unless he gave them the second year by exercising the option.
As he often does, Westie offers the claim that DeWitt is cheap. This nonsense is especially ridiculous, when we see a situation as with Glaus, when it is the Cards who insisted on bearing his $11.25MM salary for 2009. Glaus agreed to their request, because he did not want to remain in Toronto for another year. This is a clear example of why Westie’s claim that the Cards did not want to win in 2009 is hogwash.
Cards adhered to the old adage……..” Its better to piss on your own foot than have someone else do it for you”. Go to bed bench boy………subtleties are wasted on you. Sleep well.
Just tuned back in, can’t believe you guys have been talking about Glaus since this morning. I had just mentioned his name in saying that a bat at third was an alternative to a corner outfielder. Very enjoyable and lively dialog. A couple of the posts are mostly incomprehensible but no matter. Nicely done.
It has occurred to me that the Cards will certainly be better going into next year no matter what else happens this winter, just because of who we don’t have anymore. Look at it this way: What two pitchers could we get that would contribute less than Welly and Thompson. What two outfielders do less than Dunc and Rick. What infielders less than KG and that guy whose name I don’t want to mention in passing again. The team was sticking at or near the top of the division despite all that statuary, so we should rock next year.
Hi BB……..amen to that. I would much rather watch a team if enthusiastic kids than those “head cases”.
Westie, regarding head cases, I wonder how you filter and process information, since you can arrive at such implausibly classic thoughts as:
the Cards would release Ludwick during spring training;
the Cards did not try to win in 2009;
acquiring Lugo gave the team money to finance a rental of Holliday;
the Cards demonstrated how cheap they are by trading for the expensive Glaus.
You seem to acquire ideas that you think support your hostile view of DeWitt, though in mere reality, they do not:
the Cards did not release a 2008 HR leader during spring training;
the Cards invested money and prospects in quest to win in 2009;.
Trading for Lugo got rid of Duncan, freeing a roster slot for Holliday, otherwise the moves were unrelated;
Requiring Glaus to exercise his option or he would be stuck in Toronto illustrates the Cards invest bucks to compete.
Ha! Great point, BB. I also look forward as much to not having those guys around than to having whomever might replace them.
[...] Note: This post has been superseded by more current information as of November 28: link to updated Cardinals Rule 5 list. [...]
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