I have absolutely nothing against the voters who selected Minnesota Twins catcher Joe Mauer as the 2009 American League Most Valuable Player. Yes, there was that weird rogue first-place vote coming out of Seattle for Miguel Cabrera, but overall, all appearances are that they got the right man.
It doesn’t mean the selection doesn’t raise serious questions when viewed in the context of the still-controversial National League Cy Young Award vote, however.
Mauer logged 28 home runs and 96 RBI for Minnesota while posting the highest-ever batting average for a catcher at .365. He helped power the Twins’ late-season surge to the AL Central crown while playing a very physically-demanding position.
So, what’s not to like?
Well, Mauer didn’t play the entire season, the very same explanation used in part by the infamous pair of voters who not only didn’t select Chris Carpenter first in the NL Cy vote, they left the St. Louis Cardinals’ ace off their top-three ballots completely.
There is also no telling how many of the 21 other voters who placed Carpenter second or third did so for the same reason. His time out was a commonly-offered explanation by some of those who went with Tim Lincecum or Adam Wainwright instead.
Why the double-standard?
- Just as Carpenter excelled in rate stats measurements and still accrued enough innings to qualify as the NL earned run average leader, so did Mauer gain enough at-bats to win the AL batting title.
- Just as Carpenter fell short of the other Cy candidates in the counting stats of strikeouts and wins viewed by many voters to be so important, so did Mauer in home runs and RBI.
The Twins catcher finished tied for 17th in the AL in home runs and deadlocked for 16th in RBI. The Cardinals starter was second in the NL in wins and 27th in strikeouts.
- Just as Carp missed about five weeks of the season due to injury, Mauer was sidelined during the entire month of April.
The Cardinals’ ace sat out exactly 30 games of his team’s season after pitching in game nine of the Cardinals’ season and returning to the mound in game 40. Mauer made his first appearance in game 23 on May 1.
Carpenter’s time out appeared to be a fatal blow to his NL Cy Young Award chances while Mauer’s seemed insignificant to the writers that named him the AL MVP in a virtual landslide, giving him 27 of 28 first-place votes.
How could that one additional week out of action matter so much to so many?
I’m not convinced that one week was the only thing that figured into their decision. Yes, there is and always has been plenty of inconsistency in what the writer’s call “logic” or “reason” in their votes.
But to be sure, Mauer led the AL in batting average, on base and slugging, and among the players who were seriously considered for the award, he was far and away the leader in almost every sabermetric stat (RAR, WAR, wOBA, etc). Given that he played such a demanding defensive position, it was a pretty easy choice.
With Carpenter, he did not distinguish himself as clearly the best starting pitcher in any catgory. Because there was no obvious stat that seperated him from the rest, the writers were left to their own devices to determine the vote. And as we’ve seen time and time again, that’s not a good thing.
I think it boiled down to the fact that Mauer was at the top of so many stat categories and that Carpenter was not.
In fairness, it’s not the same group of people who vote for those two awards. Two writers in each NL city vote for the NL Cy Young and two writers from each AL city vote for AL MVP. I believe different writers vote for other awards also.
Also, the two voters that left Carpenter off their ballots didn’t change the final standings one iota. You’re right, though, that others may have dropped Carp because of the missed time.
Bottom line, the AL MVP was a slam dunk and the NL Cy Young had three worthy challengers. Life isn’t always fair.
On Bernie M’s radio show (101.1FM) he says he’s having Tony on later after the MVP is announced and Tony said to leave him some time to say something about “the sabermetrics and stats’ guys in relation to the Cy Young.
Tony spent several minutes talking about the metrics and stats guys and specifically related it to the Cards organization and scouting. Bottom line, as I heard it, the Cards org has, and should have, a good stats and metrics capability, and should be used in their proper place. He said that if it is not kept in its place ‘the org will be in trouble’ (thats an approx quote). He emphasized all the factors that stats don’t measure, that eyeballs do, in the context of both the CY Young and scouting. Bernie says he may replay some of that part of Tony’s ‘lecture’ tomorrow; I also think arcived segments are accessible on the 101.1 site. Excellent listen.
I don’t think I have an argument with anything TLR said. Someone will try to make something out of it, though. They usually do.
Last post on this, Bernie pointed out that a pure sabermetrics approach had Zobrist the MVP over Albert. He went on a few minutes and asked that if we know any of these people, for the holidays, get them an intervention, so they can get the help they need. He said he was warming up the audiance for Tony.
Tony seems to think that the Cardinal Way shouldn’t involve chisling info on stone tablets, but that the whole stats and metrics thing has gotten completely out of hand.
Since Zobrist was in the AL and Albert in the NL, I didn’t get that comment. Nor did I see the original work he was quoting. Bernie kept referencing Fangraphs as a placeholder for everything wrong.
I didn’t hear TLR mention The Cardinal Way, though perhaps I missed it…
Last one for sure, I think of Tony as a stats guy and have often thought that he makes game decisions purely on the stats, without considering the eyeball things. Like momentum, who’s hot right now, etc. Now, when he thinks his guys got screwed he’s a critic.
bb, not sure why you are rationing your posts. Think of this as a buffet.
My take is that TLR likes his stats and how he uses them but is less interested in others using other stats to suggest how he should do his job.
Brian, I was trying to summarize the gist. He didn’t use ‘Cardinal Way’, but I believe he was referencing the same sort of old way/new way cardinal way thing that was discussed on the blog last couple days. I should also make clear, I don’t think he was critical of guys who use stats and metrics as a way of organizing and analyzing data so that it can be thought about more effectively. He thinks guys are starting to let the stats do the thinking for them, and making the decisions for them without considering the intangibles or human element.
Tony could have kept the stats/metrics comments in the context of the Cy Young, or awards in general. He chose to take it beyond that and into the context of scouting, the cardinal organization, and player evaluation in general. So, in a sence, he’s the one who is making something of it. Why would he expand the context in that way?
It seems consistent with TLRs past comments.
Consistent or not, I agree with bb that TLR is using this as an opportunity to stir the pot. I haven’t heard or seen anything that indicates anyone is forcing him to use any stats he doesn’t choose to in his managing…..or even roster composition for that matter. Again, what’s his point?
Blingboy,
I’m not sure if I understand your comment about TLR using his own stats, especially the one about who’s hot right now. Are you suggesting he uses the guy who’s hot right now too often or not often enough?
If he’s using the sabermatrician style, he would sit a guy went four for five the day before because there is no guarantee the guy will continue a hot streak. That has been shown time and time again by people like Bill James.
If you’re suggesting he uses the hot guy too often, we don’t have to look back very far to read people screaming on Internet boards about him sitting a “hot” player.
Mysterious posts gang. The battle for control as expressed with stats superseding Tony’s intuitive intangibles has been at play for 3 yrs now. Tony is beginning to see familiar patterns emerging in Mo/BD’s posturing. He is beginning to counter. Tony loves stats when they reinforce what he wants to do. If we take an African American rule 5 from somebody right up front………….duck, its ground hog day.
Boras didn’t have many players last year. This year he can’t afford to hold the market up as long as he did for Mark T, least he strand his own flock in the dead pool. That suspension of activity might be owner controlled this year, trying to create panic. As I have said before, a credible offer for Holiday might have played, that why one wasn’t made. Lots of players will be available. Tony wants a say. This is just beginning. We aren’t getting Jason Bay, or Holiday. We might be looking at trades instead of free agents maybe looking to take on a little salary for 1 or 2 years instead of these mega deal scenarios.
i believe TLR took this opportunity to express his thoughts on how the new numbers baseball people can start to view the game differently if they so desire but that he will continue to view it the way he has been for the last………………..oh…………..50 years or so.
This shouldn’t come as a shocker to anyone with an IQ of at least 70. TLR will manage this upcoming year the same way he has in years past no matter what the Bill James handbook says or Fangraphs, or Dewan’s or any other mathematical new age baseball guru publication says.
I would actually be worried if he tried to manage the game differently as he’s probably not good at doing it any other way.
I expect the cards to pitch to contact no matter how Keith Law votes on the Cy Young. I expect the cards to platoon a good number of positions due to the lefty righty matchups. I expect the lineups to be different more times than they are the same,\. I expect the veteran guys to be high on TLR’s list of snuggle buddies and young guys to be in leg irons on the bases. I expect Albert to lead the team in SB’s and Yadi to be close behind and they will be 1-2 on the team in SB’s. And finally I expect Albert to carry the team as far as he can because thats the way it is and has to be…………………..for one more year at least.
I wonder if Bill James has a stat for the statistically effect player. One that you sit down after he went 4/5. The Joys of reason. “Mister Barnum has pulled the elephants from todays show………because they were so good yesterday. They rarely fly two days in a row”. “Gosh Mister, we came all the way from Springfield to see the Elephants, like in this picture”. Nope, Elephants don’t fly two days in a row…………monkeys should be funnier though.
WC,
Are you suggesting that if a guy goes 4 for 5 one day he will do it the next day as well?
…and the day after that and the day after that, etc.?
In reference to Zobrist, a bit of research shows that he ended up with a higher WAR value than Pujols. It doesn’t mean that Zobrist is a better hitter than Pujols by any means, but primarily that he plays a much more valuable position (er, and I guess he doesn’t get bonus points for playing all of them). There are a lot of strong hitting first basemen out there, but a lot of weak hitting middle infielders. The difference between Zobrist and the average second baseman is slightly higher than the difference between Pujols and the average first baseman? That doesn’t sound crazy.
I question whether or not Bernie could count without using his fingers. He shouldn’t delve into things that he clearly doesn’t understand.
Pujols the first baseman does severely limit the Cardinals’ roster flexibility. Everyone else on the team needs to be able to field a real position and only one player can be shoved over in left. Pujols the third baseman or even Pujols the left fielder was a lot more valuable. Finding a reasonably strong hitting 1B is a lot easier than finding a similarly strong hitting 3B or LF.
Its never about that. People buy tickets to see players. Management plays them. Its meaningless to pursue statistics whose influence and tactical flexibility never overcome other variables that out weight their significance. Example: Vegas knows well the probability of the roll of the dice. Each throw is done so against fixed variables that favor them in the money wagered. The play is in the alcohol, the mirrors and chandeliers, and the titties. Baseball is an entertainment, and most often is played as such. The players are unequal, as are the pitching match ups. If Shumaker goes 4/5, and is looking at Sabathia the next day, he sits……..not because he went 4/5. He is in unlikely to match it. If you are his replacement, he plays anyway. If you have Utley backing him up. He sits. Hs 4/5 never enters consideration.Pretense for evaluating playing time, base on inability to recreate high end numbers is ludicrous. Considering the amount of money payed to players, to appear, you rarely see the opposite as true, where a player is sat down because of an 0/5 performance. I mean he’s bound to be better, right!……….I bet he tries to go 5/5 the every day. The game is in there somewhere. I know a player that goes 4/5 rarely asks for the next day off……because he is trying to better his average. Unless he plays for the Cubs maybe. Handing a gorilla a Stradivarius is going to produce very little music, but I dare say there is likely to be some noise made.
“I wonder if Bill James has a stat for the statistically prejudiced player”, the one that is riding pine because it is really unlikely to be done everyday.
I wonder if Bill James has a stat for the statistically prejudiced player”, the one that is riding pine because his 4/5 is really unlikely to be done everyday. It probably shows up in the homicide or suicide stats somewhere. hiccup!
Didn’t make any more sense the second time Westy.
If a young guy goes 4 for 5 and the next day would be facing a pitcher that the stats show he won’t do well against, Tony will sit him. The idea is partly to try to put in a guy who will do better, but for Tony the more important thing is to not put the young player into a position where he will likely fail. The young player will have a negative psychological response to trying and failing, so don’t let him try in cases where failure is likely. Stats help identify those situations. Let us not forget that players are humans and are possessed of certain traits which have been selectivly bread in over a million years. These traits are human nature and among them is the response to reward and punishment. Tony does not consider the psychological effect of the player going 4 for 5 and not getting a reward. The young player will wonder ‘what do I have to do to stay in the lineup, if 4 for 5 doesn’t do it.” Tony would of course know this, so he must expect that the young player can tolerate it. So my conclusion is that Tony believes his young players would not be psychologically affected by lack of reward for success, but would be psychologically affected by failure. His stats help him manage this type of player. Whether or not it makes sense to believe that the player is immune from human nature is where Tony and I would not be able to agree.
Lets say our subject is stranded in the wilderness and can sustain himself either by taking honey from bees or by taking fresh meat from a bear. He can safely live out his life nibbling honeycombs, covered with welts. But if he wants to eat steak, he will have to take on the bear or die trying. Tony’s way (the cardinal way?) encourages those who will learn to be content honey nibblers and discourages those who would take on the bear. He would feel guilty if they died trying as some surely would. This is why Mo has to buy meat-eaters with BD’s money or JL’s prospects.
BB,
You seem to be saying that TLR does this only with young players but the records show it is with veterans also. Ludwick sat now and then after big games to the dismay of many on these boards in early 2008 and 2009 and so did Lugo this year.
You are right in that TLR tries to put guys in a position to succeed. He also has access to much more info than you and I. TLR has made a lot of bread doing what he does and has won a lot of games. I don’t think he’s ruined too many egos or reduced many players to tears.
I also believe that players have a pretty good idea of when they are going to be in the lineup. A 3 for 4 game might or might not make TLR change his mind about the next night’s lineup depending upon many factors.
Good stuff BB. Thats essentially what I said. The move requires a superior option. The move is not going to be based on the peak performance, but on the diminished performance against a specific pitcher. I seriously doubt any coach makes any of these discriminations, save Tony with his platoon fetish. Look at the games we won when Holiday and DeRosa stopped the circle jerk.
DD17, your point about vets like Luddy may be right. I disagree about trying to put guys in a position to succeed. Rather, he tries to not let them risk failure, even though taking that risk will be necessary for the player to explore their true potential and be fully successful. I also agree the players pretty much know when they will be in the lineup, and not be, and have been conditioned to believe that nothing they can do on the field will change that.
Right…………Now the Chris Duncan is gone, and Ricky A, there seems to be no need for “this move”.
You’re right about carnivoirs scattering the jerkees, Westy. Toothless geezers like RC predicts will do nothing to break it up, unless the smell of Ben-Gay is too much.
“I question whether or not Bernie could count without using his fingers. He shouldn’t delve into things that he clearly doesn’t understand.”
These guys (and Bernie is not the only one) make so much money now days from TV and radio they don’t take the time to do the research they should. It is a shame really. It’s joe 6-pack who follows the game but not that closely that suffers. He still gets most of his info from the newspaper and radio rather than internet. Unfortunately what he gets these days is poor.
Its not so much lack of information as a different kind. Taking a guess, I would think Bernie watches more games in a year than Bill James has in his life. That’s not to say you can’t learn a lot from the box scores. Meaning no disrespect CC, but your comment establishes that you don’t consider watching countless baseball games to constitute research, and that in essence is the whole problem.
Westy is right in pointing out that the fans also expect a success/reward relationship, and react negatively when there is a disconnect. Its that human nature thing again. All people, fans and players alike, because they are people, react negatively to it.
DD17 responded to the theory I was putting forward by pointing out that Luddy got pulled a lot after a success. I’ve looked into the numbers as best I could and IMO his point is supported. Not sure if there is an explaination consistant with the theory, or if the theory needs to evolve.
bb said, “Taking a guess, I would think Bernie watches more games in a year than Bill James has in his life.”
I am not sure I would necessarily agree with that and have a follow on question. Are you talking baseball games or just games?
Nothing about Bill James or Bernie or anyone else specifically, but there aren’t enough hours in the day to be an in-depth expert on everything, from college hoops to the NHL to the NFL to MLB to the 300 players in the minor league system of one particular organization. Following a general sports columnist is different than reading a team beat writer, who has a narrower focus, for example. It is all in what you are looking for, depth or breadth. They both have a place when you consider the multitudes their parent organizations are trying to reach.
TLR’s job is to win games, not to coddle highly paid egomaniacs that play pro baseball.
Forty years ago, when most major league teams were playing the little ball that I see espoused as the way to play the game, Earl Weaver was winning pennants with pitching, defense, platoons and three run homers.
He probably got a lot of criticism from not playing Don Baylor and Bobby Grich more their first couple of years but their careers turned out okay.
This whole TLR hates kids thing is so overblown I want to scream.
Brian, I was talking about baseball games, Bernie wasn’t a very good example.
DD, I don’t think TLR hates kids, I think he loves them too much. A lot of people do think he he hates them. He doesn’t want them to take risks and probably get hurt (not pysically), but if one of them has the stones to blow him off and go for it, and happens to pull it off and succeed, he’s a proud papa. I look at Brendan’s season like that. I’m thinking that he will be handled more like the studs than like the kids next year. RC and I danced around that sort of issue for several days regarding Colby. I hoped he would try it too, and emerge a stud or go down in flames, because we need a stud. My take on RC’s position is he thinks Colby does not have the makeup required to pull it off, and so would not want to see him take the chance of going down in flames. Rather he favors a safer approach, not taking that chance, which admittedly will not get him anywhere on a Tony team, but will avoid that possible disaster. RC I think wants Colby to play it safe and wait it out. Tony will be happy to let him play it safe, and will help him avoid situations where he stands a good chance of failing. I guess that leaves us with a pretty darned good #7 hitter. He could use his speed to avoid getting doubled up by Yadi. What a waste IMO.
Aside. Shelly Duncan got outrighted and elected to become a free agent.
“DD17 responded to the theory I was putting forward by pointing out that Luddy got pulled a lot after a success. I’ve looked into the numbers as best I could and IMO his point is supported. Not sure if there is an explanation consistent with the theory, or if the theory needs to evolve.”
I would disagree some with this BB. Tony sat Ludwick down because he didn’t want any player to to push Chris Duncan to his ultimate end. As much as the Cards needed Ludwick to step up in 2008, when he finally did, Tony sat him. I can still remember Duncan lording over left field in LA, going o’fer and Ludwick had just tore SD righties to pieces. Ludwick took 4/5 weeks to regain his momentum. Same with Colby. If he could have found a way to sit him, he would have. Cardinals made there best moves when either Duncan or Ankiel were hurt. Mo left him 4 outfielders in 09 so Colby was sure to get some playing time. That may well have been a case when Tony used numbers to justify his real purpose. My greatest satisfaction was watching Tony run out a consistent lineup because he had no reasonable options in August of 09. The biggest + going into 2010 is that Duncan and Ankiel are gone. There playing privileges were always at odds with reason………….. With the talent available, how could we not have a great team this year, even at budget prices.
Excellent Westy. I was hoping to fend off getting pummeled. I heard Tony on the radio yesterday talk about how much talent he had at the end of the year and wondered how he lost, but he managed to do it somehow. There were chuckles from the peanut gallery, but I don’t think he was kidding. It reenforced my belief that it will not be more of the same. I would guess that you think anything different will be due to Mo catching on and providing a roster which will limit Tony’s maddness, rather than any change of heart by Tony.
“Studs and going down in flames?”
What in the world are you talking about here, BB? It sounds to me like you’ve been conversing with WCBW too much and are writing in riddles.
I would guess that Colby will sit against some tough lefties and play against some of the more finesse types unless he progresses as he seemed to in the NLDS with some good swings against both Wolf and Kershaw.
Very few rookies play every day in the majors for any team, especially a contending team.
BB, BillyD is the GM. Mo is his assistant and also represents the Cardinals in that official capacity. The Cardinal business plan was different starting 2009 than it will be 2010. I believe I know why. The relative function of these boards doesn’t make it easy to talk about a wider framework of causation and influence so I will point at a few surprising variables from DeWitt’s end.
The 2009 team was designed to loose, to aid in the transition to a new mid market mentality, with a lower payroll and a higher revenue sharing potential. Surprises;
1) Chris Carpenter returns and is dominant. That was at best 1/5 in February.
2) Albert goes unconscious, and carries this team on his back, heading toward a triple crown.
3) Ryan Franklin raises above two over valued rookies to make the All Star team. (miracle)
4) Joel Pinero finds a sinker.
5) Cubs and the Brewers tunnel with little outside pressure.
6) And most importantly, B. Ob holds the crows nest against the nasty boys. Gulf oil pool monies are trapped in Swiss Chocolate, as Sachs Gman is under serious scrutiny. Homeland security protocols are a nuisance. Cash flow becomes a huge issue to certain local industries.
All these variables lead us to posture where the promise of fluid capital, based on happy fans, out weighs long range goals. They are compelled now to play fast and loose. Holiday was always a means to an end. Getting him by cashing in Eggs and receiving cash from a desperate Oakland franchise was smart, even if only for a half a year. The Boston move and arrangements are still and will remain confidential. All moves brought cash in. Not out. If you can read this, enjoy. If it seems funny, let it stay silly.
TLR post from Twitter a few minutes ago…
“Respect Tim, but Adam & Chris earned CY. Computer data best when aid to personal observation & analysis.”
Perhaps he is changing the acronym from STOUT to SCAT, with scouting first and stats second…
BB – “DD, I don’t think TLR hates kids, I think he loves them too much. A lot of people do think he he hates them. He doesn’t want them to take risks and probably get hurt (not pysically), but if one of them has the stones to blow him off and go for it, and happens to pull it off and succeed, he’s a proud papa. I look at Brendan’s season like that. I’m thinking that he will be handled more like the studs than like the kids next year. ”
TLR doesn’t hate young players IMO, he prefers veteran guys who he has a book on and therefore can use his acquired data to platoon accordingly. Thats his game. Brendan will be treated the same next year as he was this year, no better, no worse.
BB – “My take on RC’s position is he thinks Colby does not have the makeup required to pull it off, and so would not want to see him take the chance of going down in flames. ”
Bling, your take would be incorrect. Makeup deficiencies are not the problem IMO. He doesn’t like not being able to play the game.
BB – “Rather he favors a safer approach, not taking that chance, which admittedly will not get him anywhere on a Tony team, but will avoid that possible disaster. ”
You are writing of Colby batting second verses further down in the order I presume? And you think I want for Colby to bat down in the order because I am worried about him failing?
Mind reading or interpretation may not be your strong suit. I like Colby down in the order because he can play the game down there not wait on Albert to win the game like he does in the two hole. And the take a chance approach won’t win you over with Tony, trust me on that. The advice Colby got from former players was to play it safe. Aggressive mistakes would get you in serious trouble. The closer you are to Albert the less aggressive you can be. Hence his extreme dislike of the entire situation.
BB -”RC I think wants Colby to play it safe and wait it out. Tony will be happy to let him play it safe, and will help him avoid situations where he stands a good chance of failing.”
Colby has never struggled like he did this year verses lefty’s and if you read scout much you will know that I said TLR would turn Colby into a platoon player and he was this past year. If you don’t play verses LH pitching you will struggle mightily when you get at bats against them. I wish TLR would put him in the lineup and leave him in. If that were to happen you would see marked improvement but I don’t anticipate that will happen until TLR gives it up. Colby will fail this next year just like this year because he will be platooned the same way. Then in a few years people will say, well he’s finally figuring out LH pitching, which will be hogwash. Nope, he will not be getting platooned, that will be the difference.
BB – ” I guess that leaves us with a pretty darned good #7 hitter. He could use his speed to avoid getting doubled up by Yadi. What a waste IMO.”
See here’s how I see that bling. Colby on base in front of Yadi…………….what could Tony be thinking? here’s how I see it.
1. We probably need to get Colby to second base so a single by Yadi will score Colby, so we will LET HIM STEAL. TLR, always smart about the ins and outs of the game would be thinking this very same thing because TLR knows that the pitcher is up next so this is the best way to try to manufacture a run under these circumstances.
2. If Colby steals second, they are not going to walk Yadi so this is not a bad thing to steal a base in this situation.
3. Yadi leads the Earth in grounding into double plays so this is another reason to steal in front of him.
What a waste is to put a fast guy in front of Albert when he is going to do nothing but stand there. And if I’m not mistaken Albert ranks pretty high up on double play balls as well.
WC – “I would disagree some with this BB. Tony sat Ludwick down because he didn’t want any player to to push Chris Duncan to his ultimate end. As much as the Cards needed Ludwick to step up in 2008, when he finally did, Tony sat him. I can still remember Duncan lording over left field in LA, going o’fer and Ludwick had just tore SD righties to pieces. Ludwick took 4/5 weeks to regain his momentum. Same with Colby. If he could have found a way to sit him, he would have. Cardinals made there best moves when either Duncan or Ankiel were hurt. Mo left him 4 outfielders in 09 so Colby was sure to get some playing time. That may well have been a case when Tony used numbers to justify his real purpose. My greatest satisfaction was watching Tony run out a consistent lineup because he had no reasonable options in August of 09. The biggest + going into 2010 is that Duncan and Ankiel are gone. There playing privileges were always at odds with reason………….. With the talent available, how could we not have a great team this year, even at budget prices.”
West Coast, this is right on but maybe only some of us could see it this way. I thought Luddy should have been in the game every day, not part of a 4 man rotation.
Diz – “I would guess that Colby will sit against some tough lefties and play against some of the more finesse types.
Very few rookies play every day in the majors for any team, especially a contending team.”
You have followed the cardinals for a long time right? Young players are always gonna be platooned on a TLR team. This will not change nor would anyone expect it to. But no matter what one thinks, it does not help in their development. It is only negative. There is not one positive gained by being platooned. Not one.
RC, regarding platooning, does one size really fit all? For example, after three years, it is pretty obvious that Skip cannot hit lefties as well as most. Why would it not be better for the team to play a stronger hitter than he against left-handed pitching?
BB – “Excellent Westy. I was hoping to fend off getting pummeled. I heard Tony on the radio yesterday talk about how much talent he had at the end of the year and wondered how he lost, but he managed to do it somehow. There were chuckles from the peanut gallery, but I don’t think he was kidding. It reenforced my belief that it will not be more of the same. I would guess that you think anything different will be due to Mo catching on and providing a roster which will limit Tony’s maddness, rather than any change of heart by Tony.”
Bling, why would you expect TLR to change the way he has done business for all these years in his last year as manager? By trading Duncan last year Mo stopped some of the madness(you see I think he caught on and made some adjustments), by not resigning Izzy Mo stopped some of the madness. If Ankiel is resigned then Luddy will be platooned some more, Colby will be regardless if Rick is brought back or not but without Rick Luddy may very well be a full time guy. With that thought in mind, I don’t think we will see Rick back. Mo has caught on.
Brian – “RC, regarding platooning, does one size really fit all? For example, after three years, it is pretty obvious that Skip cannot hit lefties as well as most. Why would it not be better for the team to play a stronger hitter than he against left-handed pitching?”
I believe TLR is at his most comfortable when he is analyzing his numbers and trying to outfox the opposition by using a platoon. You read my comments on scout last year. I stated it wasn’t a positive for a young player to be platooned IMO. I stated that Colby would put up terrible numbers this year if he was platooned. Guess what? He was awful against LH pitching. Not because it was the big leagues but because he didn’t see them enough. Some people who have a history of not hitting either RH or LH pitching may need to be platooned but a young player who has fairly even rates of reaching base against both in his career should not IMO.
I stated many times about a square peg in a round hole and that not everybody fits into that style of play. TlR operates best when he is running right handed batters to face left handed pitching and vise versa. Thats his deal and he’s good at it but not everyone will have success in that system.
Most teams would be developing players to completely fill a role. This gives them an opportunity to carry stronger specialty guys on the bench. The Cardinal bench sucks, and has sucked because of this. This team desperately needed at least two professional hitters in recent years. The move of Skip, who should be a platoon outfielder at best, to second was a perfect example of cutting the baby in two to settle a custody dispute. A perfect example of the dynamic between Tony and Mo/BD last year. BD ate 4 mill to further his agenda last year. Thats why I was telling RC up front that Colby was ” a made man” last February.
Westie, mid-market teams that draw 3 million don’t get revenue sharing no matter what their payroll. They could make a lot of cash by having a low payroll though. Since cash flow is BD’s ‘t game now, why won’t we see a mid $60 million payroll? Maybe he’s a little bit better businessman than Westie is that’s why.
I love how we have gone to “we’ll soon see the announcement of several million going to Boston to wrap up the Lugo trade ” to “the arrangements ….will remain confidential.” Watching Westie run for cover is quite amusing.
Each team got a 35 million split of MLB revenue according a recent article published here. Some got more + plus luxury tax moneys in same article…………. The agreement for Lugo was the best case scenario for Boston. They will get around 2 million within the “PTBN rules or cash” rules within 6 months. Boston created cover, and got a higher return on their 13.5 than they could have got in any other investment scheme for paying his future salary up front. The Cardinals could have got O.Cabrera from Oakland who was hitting 373 in July it seems, with 41 hits, just by waving the cash return from Oakland. A better looking deal than Lugo if baseball is your aim. Absolutely, to no one in particular. The Cardinals took in Money on every deal.
RC wrote: “You have followed the cardinals for a long time right? Young players are always gonna be platooned on a TLR team. This will not change nor would anyone expect it to. But no matter what one thinks, it does not help in their development. It is only negative. There is not one positive gained by being platooned. Not one.”
Yep, I’ve followed the Cardinals since well before you were born. Here’s a partial list of young players that TLR did not platoon. I’ve included players from his earlier years with the White Sox and the A’s.
Ron Kittle
Ozzie Guillen
Jose Canseco
Mark McGwire
Walt Weiss
Mike Bordick
Brent Gates
John Mabry
Joe McEwing
Fernando Tatis
JD Drew
Albert Pujols
Bo Hart
Yadier Molina
Skip Schumaker
Some of those guys worked themselves into platoon roles but they were in the lineup against just about everybody.
Well Diz, I have always been taught to respect my elders so I’ll just say, man Imust have been mistaken
I can see where a fast guy would not be profitably employed in the 2 hole with Albert 3rd. I haven’t argued that Colby should bat second. (At least I don’t think I have) Hopefully, he’ll be anywhere but there next year. If Brendan plays everyday, which he will, Tony might put him there so he doesn’t do anything wreckless on the basepath, which he will.
RC, I might be a sprout next to DD17 but I may have a year or two on you, so you might want to start agreeing with me more.
I’d love to see Colby in the lineup nearly every day hitting fifth or sixth. He’d have ample opportunity to run with Freese and Yadi behind him and, maybe, Ludwick.
Perhaps I should rename this website “Grumpy Old Men”?
There can be a tradeoff between a young player and the needs of a team. The priorities for a player and for his employer do not need to be the same.
Its great for a young player to get 600 ML at bats, play everyday. This speeds his personal development.
However, a team can be better served to use the whole roster and to ease a young player into the lineup gradually, based on results. In 2009, Rasmus began the season as the 4th OF, getting occasional starts. After injuries to Ankiel and Ludwick and the dysfunction of Duncan, Rasmus got more playing time and ended up as the regular in CF. He earned his way into the lineup via superior play.
In general, provide better performance than everyday players, if a team can be constructed so as to allow a few. Lugo/Schumaker for instance will be stronger offensively than Skip batting against lefties.