Following are links to a few Sunday newspaper articles of particular interest to me as a St. Louis Cardinals watcher.
Keeping good men down
The Detroit News has a nice article on the Tigers’ version of Ron “Pop” Warner, rising managerial candidate Tom Brookens. Detroit manager Jim Leyland is given props for hiring up-and-comer Brookens, the former Detroit third baseman, to his 2010 coaching staff. Brookens had moved up the Tigers’ minor league managerial food chain, one level at a time.
The article delves into the rarely-discussed fear many managers apparently have in employing their potential replacement. Leyland was offered as an example of having been blocked this way, as the rising star in the Tigers’ system was passed over for openings by then-manager Sparky Anderson in the late 1970′s and early 1980’s.
In contrast, Tony La Russa, who did give Leyland his first MLB coaching job in his Chicago days in 1982, was called “confident and secure” for initially hiring Leyland.
I find that characterization most interesting given that in the last 20 years, La Russa has groomed a total of zero MLB managers. Current third base coach Jose Oquendo has a chance to make the big step, but seems to be getting fewer external interviews for openings this winter compared to last.
La Russa’s staff continuity means deserving candidates on the way up like Warner either have to wait or consider leaving the organization. The last promotion of a minor league coach/instructor/coordinator to St. Louis was Joe Pettini in 2002. Mark McGwire’s recent hire as major league hitting coach was obviously a very unique situation.
I looked into the details of La Russa’s coaches back in May in a two-part series: “La Russa’s coaching legacy”.
Ozzie wants to manage/coach
A logical follow up is to check in on the anti-La Russa protégé, Ozzie Smith. Having managed in this past summer’s Futures Game put The Wizard in control in one Busch Stadium dugout, for three hours at least.
In Springfield, Illinois for an autograph signing session on Saturday, Smith told the State Journal-Register this:
“I will (manage or coach) at some point in time when the time is right,” said Smith, who is 54. “It’s a natural transition to move from the field. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out that way for me. I look forward to the day when I can.”
It is unclear at what level Ozzie wants to manage. One might assume it is at the major league level. Attempting to do so without minor league grooming would seem to be a big step for anyone, even a Hall of Famer. Have to wonder how he would get along with his players after carrying his La Russa grudge for 13 years running.
Coaching would seem more reasonable. As a point of comparison, Oquendo has only one season of minor league instructing and another one managing, but has since added 11 seasons on the major league staff.
Mr. Rogers loves Boras
A Sunday column from the Chicago Tribune’s Phil Rogers is always good for getting my blood moving. His current lovefest is for Scott Boras, apparently because the agent recruits the best players and sells them to the highest bidder. Now, that is quite the angle.
Rogers rubs the Yankees’ World Series win in the Red Sox’ collective noses by pointing out the Bostonians passed on last year’s Matt Holliday – then-free agent first baseman Mark Teixeira. He paints Cards GM John Mozeliak as this year’s Boras stooge.
What fools those Red Sox were in offering a mere $170 million when the Yanks bid $180! Now, I am not a big fan of Boston’s big-spending ways either, but after having been burned by Boras more than once, at least they appear to be learning.
Here’s hoping Mo has as much backbone as the Sox did in drawing a line and sticking to it.
Pirates replace Reds in Florida State League
The Pittsburgh Pirates have received approval to purchase the Cincinnati Reds’ A-Advanced Florida State League team, which was in Sarasota, Florida, and move it to their spring home in Bradenton.
The Reds needed to make a change in the FSL after relocating their spring camp to Goodyear, Arizona starting in 2010. Their former facility in Sarasota has been taken over by the Orioles, whose A-Advanced club is the Frederick Keys of the Carolina League.
To complete the deal with Pittsburgh, Cincinnati has moved their Single-A affiliate to the Pirates’ former home in Lynchburg, Virginia. The Pirates had been affiliated with the Lynchburg Hillcats of the Carolina League for the last 15 years.
The Palm Beach Cardinals compete in the FSL, where they have been since 1966 with the exception of six years in the Carolina League. They fielded clubs in Prince William in 1997 and 1998 and in Potomac from 1999 through 2002. Details on the Cardinals FSL/CL league history can be found here.
I wish he would go ahead and draw it then.
Holiday looks to be a little vulnerable right now. I noticed that he had a birth notice. Little girl. That will soften you up every time.
Derrick Goold posted an article on Sunday along the same theme as my October 26 post “Was McGwire good for Holliday“, but the angle was to serve as a rebuttal to Scott Boras’ comments in the Chicago article above. In it, Boras essentially blamed McGwire for Holliday’s problems in Oakland without giving Mac credit for suggesting Holliday’s leg kick in the first place. As Goold noted, it is too bad Mark can’t speak for himself.
Here’s Rogers’ excerpt:
I don’t see Ozzie being willing to put in minor league time as a manager or even much more than a brief flirt with Winter ball. Even as a coach, I don’t see his ego allowing him not to be the head guy for more than a year or 2.
Those of course are just impressions from the media about his personality — he may be totally different in person.
What exactly are the Pirates buying? the right to be in the FSL? If they are moving the franchise there don’t seem to many assets in play.
Yes, the Pirates join the FSL and the Reds take over their former affiliate in the Carolina League.
Brian, I was a humongous Ozzie fan, but one not close to the team. My feeling is that TLR greatly disrespected Smith and ruined his chance of retiring a conquering hero. This subject came up before and you seemed to support Larussa, but you know way more about the story than I do. This feud between the two; can you give a brief outline from each parties point of view as to what went wrong? What am I missing? I’d like to be open minded about this and be fair to Tony, but only if I know the facts.
As for coaching, I think it’s pretty obvious that Ozzie wants to take over for Larussa. Personally I always thought that he had a great aptitude for the game. Maybe he does have a big ego, but so does Tony. The Wizard has always been a student of the game and that puts him ahead of a lot of managers who got jobs because of who they are and not on talent. I’d bet Ozzie would be every bit the tactician that TLR is.
I’d be excited to see Ozzie Smith and Jose Oquendo working together on the Cardinals’ staff one day. Experience aside, the fan in me would be pretty psyched.
What does this look like to everyone?
The Cardinals are next in our Offseason Outlook series. Their likely commitments for 2010:
C – Yadier Molina – $4.25MM
C – Matt Pagnozzi – $400K
1B – Albert Pujols – $16MM
2B – Skip Schumaker – $430K+
SS – Brendan Ryan – $405K
3B – David Freese – $400K
IF – Julio Lugo – $400K
IF – Tyler Greene – $400K
IF/OF – Joe Thurston – $475K
LF -
CF – Colby Rasmus – $400K
RF – Ryan Ludwick – $3.7MM+
OF – Allen Craig – $400K
SP – Chris Carpenter – $14.5MM
SP – Adam Wainwright – $4.65MM
SP – Kyle Lohse – $8.875MM
SP – Jaime Garcia – $400K
SP – Mitchell Boggs – $400K
RP – Ryan Franklin – $3.25MM
RP – Trever Miller – $2MM
RP – Dennys Reyes – $2MM
RP – Kyle McClellan – $410K
RP – Josh Kinney – $405K
RP – Jason Motte – $400K
RP – Blake Hawksworth – $400K
That comes to about $65MM before arbitration raises to Ludwick and Schumaker. So we’ll put the Cardinals around $70MM committed. The Cardinals entered the season at $88.5MM, according to Cot’s Baseball Contracts. GM John Mozeliak could have close to $20MM to spend this winter.
WC, off the top of my head, Thurston was removed from the 40-man and Smoltz or other vet should be the #4 starter. I would call Kinney a long shot, but maybe his spot is taken by your displaced starter.
Axcion, I wasn’t in the clubhouse in 1996, so I am going by reports and what others told me.
Jocketty had acquired Royce Clayton via trade as Ozzie was 41 and coming off a couple of injury-plagued and ineffective years. TLR said whichever player would start that gave the team the best chance to win. Ozzie felt that there should be no competition. Since he was then healthy, he believed he deserved to start.
Smith hit better in spring camp, but TLR said Clayton was improving and better overall. When Ozzie did not get a majority of the time, he went to the press, accusing TLR of lying and making it personal. With TLR being an outsider in his first season with StL and Ozzie an icon, it became a distracting and polarizing issue for the team and fans.
That is my understanding.
Personally, I could argue either side, but in a player-coach dispute, I generally give the authority figure the benefit of the doubt.
That doesn’t mean it is 100 percent – zero percent in my eyes. Ozzie is clearly a principled man, but to carry the grudge this long doesn’t reflect particularly well on him, IMHO, even if TLR was not warm and fuzzy. If Ozzie truly believes he should be able to step in and succeed La Russa, that provides another data point that he may not be a totally-realistic individual.
For his on-field exploits, I ranked Ozzie the number five Cardinals player of all time. Yet being a Hall of Fame player as a shortstop is just that.
I was thinking more about the numbers.
Regarding Ozzie, Walt did not obtain Royce Clayton in prime years, to play backup to 41 year old Ozzie.
99.99 percent of the time, with any team, the incoming guy is going to get the job.
Ozzie must have been unable to accept the handwriting on the wall. Everybody fades. S
Ozzie held TLR to blame, when the team wanted him to step back to a senior Statesman role. If Ozzie truly wanted to get into coaching, he has let 13 years go by. He is not on the fast track.
An important part of being a manager is flexibility to get along with lots of people.
http://www.stlsportsinsider.com/Bernie%20Show/Monday/index.html.html
Dewitt talks to Bernie on ESPN radio…………… he reads all Bernie’s columns……… yikes
Thanks Brian, that’s pretty much the way I understood it too. I still have to side with Ozzie though. He is a HOFer who had a brilliant career with the Redbirds. He deserved the chance to lose the job on performance that year IMHO. If Ozzie couldn’t hold his own, then you bring in Clayton to take over. The Wizard still had his athleticism and amazing defense and at 41, it was still better than Clayton. If Ozzie out played Royce in ST then he won the job fair and square, but it appears Larussa’s plan regardless was to hand the shortstop reigns over to Clayton. So the fact is, Tony did lie to the greatest fielding shortstop of all time and cast him aside like he was no better than Tom Lawless. (No offense Tommy!)
The bottom line is Larussa humiliated the Wizard of Oz and so I hereby uphold my support of Ozzie’s grudge against Tony. Ozzie deserved to go out on his terms and that was on top of the highest tree in the Cardinal Nation. Now if Tony were to man up and publically apologize to Mr. Smith for disrespecting the legend, I could see Ozzie maybe forgiving him, but that would of course require Larussa to actually accept that he did something wrong.
Nutlaw, I could see Oquendo and Smith reviving the ‘Running Redbirds’ style of play, although it would be difficult to find enough of those type of players. Personally I loved Whiteyball. There wasn’t an opposition pitcher that could get comfortable on the mound with out our rabbits running a freaking track meet all the time. Distracting the pitcher and getting him off his game is half the battle. We won in the 80′s with only one slugger per team too (Hendrick and Clark).
Now I don’t think we’ll see a return of Whiteyball ever, but I think Jose and Ozzie would change the style just enough to get other teams pitchers a little nervous at least. Besides, Yadier’s on our team so who the heck could stop a running game anyway???
Could Ozzie step right into managing; well that’s the million dollar question, but how many former players have been handed the helm, brought out of the broadcast booth or whatever, with little or no experience? Admittedly I’m guessing, but I would say enough to substantiate a case for Ozzie to be given the chance.
I absolve TLR on the Smith situation. I think the team, including GM, wanted to make a change at SS, after Smith had declined for a couple of years. They spent lots of money to bring in Clayton and to give Ozzie an honored secondary role. Spring training “competition” was not genuine.
Smith blamed TLR as a convenient scapegoat for Ozzie’s anger, when the decision of who to play at SS went higher.
While Ozzie’s determination made him a great player, even great players, all of them, are obliged to adjust to a diminished role, when they reach their 40s.
Unfortunately, Ozzie was unable to make the inevitable transition to a lesser role with the gracefulness he displayed as a fielder.
Westie wants to say in some threads that the Cards received a cash payment for Lugo that reduced their payroll obligations last year. In other threads (like this one) he now wants to imply that the Red Sox are paying all but $400K of Lugo’s salary this year. Come on Westie, man up, which is it?
I think the idea that Managers don’t want to hire up and comers out of fear for their job is ridiculous. the article offers no evidindce to support its theory.
CC, I think Westy just did a copy and paste of the MLBTR Offseason Outlook piece. I don’t think he was advocating every number. (ie Thurston)
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/11/offseason-outlook-st-louis-cardinals.html
Pags would be a cheap backup catcher, but with Tony often carrying an extra pitcher, it would be helpful if the position was also a bat off the bench.
Hopefully, Jose O. will get his chance.
Ozzie Smith had suffered thru a couple down years but in 1996 bounced back. He was the better player with less playing time. Maybe LaRussa was smart in curtailing Smith’s playing time that year,
at the time I thought it was a big mistake and totally disrespectful of Ozzie.
I recall a pivotal play in the 1996 playoffs where Clayton made a huge mistake in the field, at the time I was convinced that Smith would have made the right play.
Ozzie’s bitterness toward LaRussa is understandable but it hasn’t been helpful as far as the Wizard being able to get back into the game via coaching.
I hope Oquendo gets the next shot at managing in St. Louis and maybe that will open the door for Ozzie to coach.
Do the Wizard and the Secret Weapon have an ongoing friendship? Or has that been strained with the feud between TLR and Ozzie?
If I want as ex-Cardinal to be the next manager I go with Oberkfell.
Met stench is hard to scrub off but it could be done, boil him in $8 per bottle Inbevwieser. Excellent idea CC, well qualified. I am for Oquendo myself.
I would be Pro Ozzie to manage but it is my belief that the next manager will be of latin descent if Albert chooses to remain in St. Louis. Oberkfell would be good as well in my eyes.
Bernie takes a run as Cardinal Management advocate, and scores an interview with the King.
DeWitt is walking a very fine line between MLB owner advocacy and acting GM with an agenda. Suggesting that he is not making formal offers to Holiday or DeRosa because their agents intend to go into unrestricted Free Agency anyway, is good for local politics, but it will also make him the first witness called in any collusion hearings that are bound to result. Trading 6 prospects for 2 players, and not even making an attempt to sign them makes him an easy target for Union attorneys. And he knows it. If the market collapses early many things will be revealed about our future.
I had this thought on my walk today. Albert really wanted to play in the World Tournament this year. He didn’t because of a 15 min nerve transposition operation. One that it appears was mis diagnosed. I wonder of BD has a better read on Albert than we think? May be some revelations from his days in the “Crows Nest”?
M. Leach’s blog post has a few interesting details from his Mo interview that did not make it into his story on StlCardinals.com.
http://yourenotagolfer.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/11/tuesday_hot_stove_tidbits_glau.html
I see Houston has both Tom Lawless and Stubby Clapp working in the system as coaches……. what?…….they couldn’t find a position for Bo Hart too???
As for post-Larussa, I’d say it’s almost a forgone conclusion that Oquendo will be given the controls, although they probably would give courtesy interviews to Ozzie, Oberkfell, jO Torre, Mike O’Matheny and Mark McOgwire.
Ax, a foregone conclusion? That comment, coupled with your in-bred candidate list indicates you may have your Cardinals blinders on a bit too tightly. When the time comes, I think ownership will look all over. If they don’t, people like me will ride them hard for not being open-minded.
The best two managers in recent Cardinals history were both outsiders. 15 years ago, you would never have assumed Tony La Russa would have been a candidate. Same with Whitey Herzog 30 years ago.
Bling, I think you may very well be the winner of, “who will be the next manager in St. Louis”. If Albert stays it is my opinion that “his will be done” in regards to who the next manager is and it most certainly will be someone who will understand the pecking order and allow the current system to continue. Oquendo would be a good choice I would think being that he is of Latin descent.
RC, obviously the bilingual TLR preceded Albert in StL, but by all indications, their relationship is very strong. It would seem prejudicial if the implication is that other than TLR, only a manager of Hispanic origin could satisfy Pujols.
Regarding timing, assuming TLR leaves the managerial job before Pujols’ extension is decided, I would imagine Albert will have more input than if it came open after he is signed, sealed and delivered with a new deal. Ownership would clearly still ask his opinion, but his vote has to be worth more while his contract is unsettled. If Albert has a preference as to his next manager, it is just one more reason that he should be in no hurry to agree to an extension.
For all we know, once TLR is gone, ownership may want to shake up the pecking order. It is quite obvious that there are still some rough edges within the organization. The history of the team shows major changes were executed most successfully when proven winners like Whitey arrived (pre- current owners) and again when Jocketty/TLR took over.
Bottom line, I expect the standards to be set higher than to simply select a safe manager who won’t rock the boat. Here’s hoping that when the time is right, they get the very best one, not the easiest one to find nor the one that is necessarily hand-picked by Albert.
Brian – “obviously the bilingual TLR preceded Albert in StL, but by all indications, their relationship is very strong. It would seem prejudicial if the implication is that other than TLR, only a manager of Hispanic origin could satisfy Pujols.”
I believe TLR to be someone who wants each player to come to work and do everything in his power to be the best. Albert is this type of player from all I have heard. TLR puts the onus on each player to be ready to play every day. Noone does this better than Albert. Albert should be able to do just about what he wants, in my eyes.
That being said, Albert and Yadi, who are both excellent players, have both started at times almost walking to first on pop ups and ground outs. Not every time but some of the time. This past year was the first time I had ever seen Albert do that. He appeared to me to be almost Pete Rose like prior to last year. This type of behavior has been attributed to latino players from way back. Heck when I played the latin kids were the laziest people I had ever seen. They looked alot like Yadi this past year running out ground balls. They hustled when they wanted to and dogged it when they wanted to. A manager not accustomed to seeing this on a daily basis may not react as calmly as one who has been around it for years. Enter Oquendo.
Brian – “Regarding timing, assuming TLR leaves the managerial job before Pujols’ extension is decided, I would imagine Albert will have more input than if it came open after he is signed, sealed and delivered with a new deal. Ownership would clearly still ask his opinion, but his vote has to be worth more while his contract is unsettled. If Albert has a preference as to his next manager, it is just one more reason that he should be in no hurry to agree to an extension. ”
Thats why I believe management wanted TLR one more year so they could quite possibly sign Albert before Albert is out of his comfort zone.
And your point about Albert dragging this out until he see’s who will be the next manager, or drag it out until he can influence the selection has merit.
Brian – “For all we know, once TLR is gone, ownership may want to shake up the pecking order. It is quite obvious that there are still some rough edges within the organization. The history of the team shows major changes were executed most successfully when proven winners like Whitey arrived (pre- current owners) and again when Jocketty/TLR took over. ”
A player of Albert’s stature wasn’t around then and who knows what the cards are thinking when considering all possible scenario’s involving Albert leaving or staying.
Brian – “Bottom line, I expect the standards to be set higher than to simply select a safe manager who won’t rock the boat. Here’s hoping that when the time is right, they get the very best one, not the easiest one to find nor the one that is necessarily hand-picked by Albert.”
Maybe you are right, but I believe Albert to be the biggest mover and shaker in the cardinals organization today, not Dewitt, not Mo, not Luhnow. And that makes me believe all decisions are made with Albert’s happiness being their primary goal.
Great discussion, RC. Regarding any players not hustling, I would rather see it addressed (privately, quietly). If TLR can’t/won’t, Oquendo would have zero chance. It could become a more widespread problem on the team as a result. Even with a celebrity inmate, you just can’t turn the asylum over and expect to be successful.
Both Albert and Yadi are over worked. They have serious thigh and hamstring problems. Albert is on his feet too much and Yadi catches to many games living in the crouch. Both are reluctant to change their workouts and or their “thick” self images. Whats a manager to do? RC, your right in that the acceptance of this oddity is worn as a privilege of their value and esteem to the team. Thats a Latin thing.
Unlike RC and most of the regular posters, who have either baseball related experience, knowledge, or time and effort put into being knowledgeable, I admit to having no qualifications or credentials at all, and absolutly no inside knowledge or informed insight. With that in mind no one should take offense if I mention that I get the impression RC is notably fixated on the Albert power thing and the latin thing. Not knowing anything much about RC, I feel like I should be cautious about taking his pronouncements in these areas as gospel, on the off chance that there is a ‘chip on shoulder’ thing, or some other agenda I don’t know about. I understand that this is not the venue for posting one’s resume and life history. Just being cautious.
BB – ” Unlike RC and most of the regular posters, who have either baseball related experience, knowledge, or time and effort put into being knowledgeable, I admit to having no qualifications or credentials at all, and absolutly no inside knowledge or informed insight. With that in mind no one should take offense if I mention that I get the impression RC is notably fixated on the Albert power thing and the latin thing. ”
Well, those two things are attached to the questions that we were addressing. But I also have stated more than once that Albert is entitled in my opinion to do anything that he so desires when it is related to the game of baseball. He is the best player in the game in my opinion and with that title comes the perks with about which we have been discussing.
Different cultures view things differently and it is no secret that latin players have been viewed by everyone who played with them to be a little more on the non hustling side. Now I’m sure among themselves they don’t view it as not hustling at all, they probably consider it saving my energy for later on. Now is that all latin players or even most that dog it? Of course not. But that stigma is there and its the first thing people mention when a latin player doesn’t hustle.
I can give you a good example. I have black kids who play on my baseball team, one just signed a large baseball scholarship just the other day to a D1 school. When I have been approached by coaches regarding this kid they start off by asking what kind of kid is he? Great kid I always say. No………what kind of kid is he? I know what they are talking about so I say the same things every time. He acts like a white kid I’ll say, his pants aren’t hanging around his knees, he goes to class, and he is never in trouble, he’s not smoking dope every day. Now I’m not creating these thoughts about this kid but because there have been many instances in the past of black kids evidently doing wrong and acting thuggy you have to address these things with certain kids. Are there white kids who wear their pants down around their knees and do all of the things mentioned above but nobody ever asks you about them. I have to put college coaches minds at ease when dealing with my black players. It pisses me off most of the time but you deal with it.
BB – ” Not knowing anything much about RC, I feel like I should be cautious about taking his pronouncements in these areas as gospel, on the off chance that there is a ‘chip on shoulder’ thing, or some other agenda I don’t know about. I understand that this is not the venue for posting one’s resume and life history. Just being cautious.”
HAHA, no chip on my shoulder. Just calling it like I see it. I can’t spell politically correct most of the time and don’t pretend to live it that world. My world is real, I say what I think 99.9 % of the time. But that being said, I have coached white, black and latin players and loved them all equally and wouldn’t consider myself to have one prejudice hair on my body. Don’t sweat it BB, I’m just speaking on what I believe to be the truth but am not trying to dissuade you from your beliefs that these things are a figment of my imagination
I don’t think you are imagining things RC. One thing I do have is life experience, and I know that the common wisdom is often more common than wise. Baseball is certainly a multi-cultural world and I admire those able to successfully navigate in that environment.
I did say “almost” Brian. When the time comes and I’m sure you’ll agree, Jose will be one of the first ones interviewed. Reading the message boards and so on I get the feeling from the Cardinal Nation that a good number of them want and think Oquendo will get the managerial job. Believe it or not, I actually agree with you; get us the best candidate whether it be Jose, Ozzie or whomever.
Someone else actually brought up Oberkfells name, although that’s a name I had also brought forth a year ago. As for the rest of the in-bred list of jO Torre, Mike O’Matheny and Mark McOgwire, well I was just trying to be funny playing on the O connection of the other three. Looks like I died on stage with that material. Sigh!!! Tough audiance!
Notice the question and the answer below from Joe Strauss’ chat: . You see how TLR seems to always take the brunt of the heat for these so called clubhouse dynamics.
mgibby14: Joe, you are around the players constantly and observe their relationships with each other and with management. I have it on good authority (1B coach for an American League contender) that Holliday WILL NOT sign with the Cardinals because A) his wife doesn’t like St Louis, and B) he doesn’t get along with LaRussa. I know you can’t get into A, but can you shed any light on his relationship with LaRussa that you have seen and how that would affect his willingness to re-sign here if the $ were right?
Joe Strauss: I’ve heard the rumor and asked about it but received no confirmation of it. LaRussa is the one who pushed hardest for the club to acquire Holliday. He was rather blunt in his assessment of Matt’s disappointing postseason but that was only acknowledging what everyone saw for themselves. Holliday is a pro. Unless his middle name is “Rolen,” Holliday fits what TLR wants in a player. However, there may have been some clubhouse dynamics that struck Holliday as “different.” He would not be alone in that perception.
Brian, what if anything have you heard, or at least what are your thoughts about the so called rumors mentioned on Strauss Q&A copied by RC in the preceding post on this thread? My impression is its no secret in some insider circles, and if true substantially affects the whole Holliday/Cards offseason strategy. Any input appreciated.
Sorry, I have no in-depth insight on Holliday’s wife’s feelings other than the rumors I heard were contrary to what was posted above. I also saw no evidence of discord between TLR and Holliday, though I was not there every day like Joe Strauss. Apparently, Strauss didn’t see evidence of it either.
I’m sure the Q&A format is tricky with the need to come up with an instant answer and then have people sit around and analyze it. If it had been a prepared piece, I would say the existence of a contrary rumor should have been mentioned to give the reader a more informed perspective. Joe seems to aknowledge that the Cards’ clubhouse dynamic is percieved to be ‘different’ by at least some who are familiar. He leaves the reader in the dark as to what this difference is, so we cannot assess whether and how Holliday’s decision might be affected by it. There could well be no Tony/Matt discord, but at the same time the ‘different’ clubhouse dynamic could be a big problem, especially if that difference is the half of what RC’s been posting about. That makes clubhouse dynamic a key turning point on the Holliday issue. I cannot see any way a sports writer could address the issue without potentially painting Albert in a negative way and seeming to set him up to get a heaping helping of blame if Holliday doesn’t come back. This, I guess, is why the most we get is a hint in a Q&A.
Not a big deal, I was just pointing it out as to how it pertains to Alberts new contract or who the next possible manager may be.
Brian, thanks for the gravitar info. It is really a cool deal.
As one who hopes Holliday returns, I too hope it’s ‘no big deal’. Will you venture a guess as to whether the ‘different’ clubouse dynamic mentioned by Joe is essentially the cosmic Albert power thing you’ve talked about. If so, by no big deal do you mean it’s not, in your experience, the kind of thing likely to affect a player like Matt’s decision, or do you mean you don’t think Matt has a problem with it? I like the gravitar thing too, Tootie’s and Nut’s are my favorites. One of these days I’ll take the time to figure it out. Computers are scary though.
BB, it will take you two minutes tops to sign up with Gravitar. I can’t spell compuuter and I did it.
I can give you an example of how I would see it.
I am a school teacher and I answer to the principal and the superintendent. There will be one hell of an argument break out if another teacher starts telling me what to do, and tried to fine me for whatever. If that teacher has the power to discipline me because they won the National Teacher of the year award and because my principal lets them do that then I’m not going to hang around and put up with that BS. Some people may not care, I wouldn’t be able to deal with it. I have to attend all of these teacher meetings and this super teacher rarely attends and when they do they get there late, and they are gonna be getting on me? Nope. I think it would be hard for any top flight teacher to come into that situation knowing that would be what they would have to deal with IMO. My problem would be with the principal for allowing it to happen.
Now if I’m a young untenured teacher I will have to put up with it and it will probably affect me in alot of negative ways. It would make for some tough teaching days my first year. Now when I get tenure then I’m going to do my own thing and give the old teacher of the year guy the finger every time he looks my way.
Older teachers just trying to finish off their years for retirement would be more apt to not care. They are just making their time and will do just about anything to get those last few years in.
An up and coming teacher of the year candidate would say thanks but no thanks because I can go right down the road and not have to deal with that, and make more money. And I may know that this teacher of the year is a super stud teacher but in the end I just don’t think he should be my fellow teacher as well as my boss.
Damn.
P.S. Thanks for being a school teacher.
I basically agree with you RC (this is a continuation opf the discussion of a couple of days ago). what I don’t understand is how in other threads you can say that Albert has earned the right and should be allowed to act in such a manner. ( I have no idea if he does or doesn’t but I would certainly argue that he shouldn’t be allowed to do so).
An 800 pound gorilla is going to be a presense and rightly so and Albert is the King Kong of baseball. So any clubhouse with him in it is going to be different. But the idea that TLR, who knows how to manage and presumably how not to manage, whould allow something like that to get away from him doesn’t sit quite right. He would have to know its not really workable, and potentially disasterous. The idea that he would want to re-up and come back into what he would know is a seriously compromised position doesn’t sit quite right either. On the other side, there was some stuff out there in plain site this past year that seemed equally odd. ie. Glaring sloth on the field, glaring on the field in such a way as to show up another player, players who had demonstrated their inability to contribute staying on the roster, and getting played when not necessary. I don’t know what to make of it. If RC is right, there is no reason to think Holliday is the only player who would not want to play in St. Louis. We haven’t had that kind of problem before. I guess my gut tells me to give TLR more credit than that.
I don’t know if I really agree with where you guys are going with this, but I will say that the pressures on Albert were many in the collapse. Denial does cause turbulence.
For those struggling with the Lugo deal idea. The A’s had to give the Twins half a million plus O. Cabrera for a single A short stop. We could have had him in the Holiday deal for a sneeze.
Neither The Cardinals or the Sox are going to say a thing about their payment agreement. The PTBN cash settlement is all you will see. This could have been the middle infield help, if thats what we needed.
“Cabrera was one of the league’s hottest hitters in July, batting .373 with a league-high 41 hits, and he’s going to a team that is in second place in the AL Central, two games behind Detroit entering Friday.”
“I don’t know if I really agree with where you guys are going with this”. Westy, as to me, I have to admit I don’t know where I’m going with it, if anywhere. Sorry if everyone’s having to read a bunch of muddled thinking out loud that’s not leading anywhere. I’m having visuals of everything from Albert in a monkey suit with Tony holding a whip and a chair, to Colby strutting into Roger Dean come February sporting the stirrups and’stache with a middle finger salute stencilled on the front and back of his t-shirt. I’ll quit now.
Aptly said BB. You are an artist Bling. I hope your life is pleasing to you, and that your artistic temperment isn’t to much of a burden. This is a good place to explore your thoughts. No one here is “normal”. I feel like Miles Davis on occasion myself.
CC – “I basically agree with you RC (this is a continuation of the discussion of a couple of days ago). what I don’t understand is how in other threads you can say that Albert has earned the right and should be allowed to act in such a manner. ( I have no idea if he does or doesn’t but I would certainly argue that he shouldn’t be allowed to do so).”
Well CC, I do agree that a player with Albert’s ability doesn’t come around often and he should not be grouped with commoners so to speak. He should be allowed to pretty much do as he wishes as long as he does his job on the field, which we all know he does better than most. I don’t disagree personally with how the situation is handled from TLR’s point of view. You treat the king like a king. I’m just saying former players I’ve spoken to don’t like it and IMO it will keep the players who have different options from choosing to play in St. Louis. But me personally it wouldn’t bother me because I wouldn’t give a rip. I wouldn’t be corrected by anyone but the manager so it would be irrelevant.
BB – “An 800 pound gorilla is going to be a presense and rightly so and Albert is the King Kong of baseball. So any clubhouse with him in it is going to be different. But the idea that TLR, who knows how to manage and presumably how not to manage, whould allow something like that to get away from him doesn’t sit quite right. He would have to know its not really workable, and potentially disasterous. ”
I believe it works fine Bling in keeping the people happy its supposed to keep happy. My point all along is that the situation may not be a happy place for someone with different options because the situation is unique and therefore quite different than what players outside of St. Louis are used to. Enter DeRo and Holliday, exit DeRo for sure, maybe Holliday. we’ll see.
BB – “The idea that he would want to re-up and come back into what he would know is a seriously compromised position doesn’t sit quite right either. On the other side, there was some stuff out there in plain site this past year that seemed equally odd. ie. Glaring sloth on the field, glaring on the field in such a way as to show up another player, players who had demonstrated their inability to contribute staying on the roster, and getting played when not necessary. I don’t know what to make of it. ”
TLR is extremely loyal and IMO he came back for Albert. Nothing is compromised. The situation this year will be the same next with TLR at the Helm. Albert will stay happy like he has been. None of the stuff that goes on will affect anything other than the teams ability to resign players who have taken part in the process. They have different options. DeRo won’t be back. Matt I don’t know about. Hopefully he will.
As far as the glaring. Having coached some pretty good players I can tell you great players have little patience and understanding of players that are not as talented as they are. Noone is as talented as is Albert. Maybe he was just showing some frustration towards lessor talented players.
BB – “If RC is right”
RC is just spitballing with some thoughts and is probably wrong
BB – “there is no reason to think Holliday is the only player who would not want to play in St. Louis. We haven’t had that kind of problem before. I guess my gut tells me to give TLR more credit than that.”
I don’t think that St. Louis will sign too many top of the line free agents unless they over pay, which they won’t do. IF all things are equal most will choose to play where they will have more fun. I watch alot of baseball every year and I would bet you that having fun and playing for the cardinals are 180 degrees from one another. I wouldask a certain player every day, do you guys have any fun because you look like you areat a funeral every game you play. His response would be, thats the way they like it at this joint.
BB – “I’m having visuals of everything from Albert in a monkey suit with Tony holding a whip and a chair, to Colby strutting into Roger Dean come February sporting the stirrups and’stache with a middle finger salute stencilled on the front and back of his t-shirt. I’ll quit now.
Now this is funny stuff Bling
Albert will remain your 800 lb Gorilla come spring training.
Tony’s going to be Tony. And that super professional, hard working, and prepared to do all he can to win, Albert will outwork him.
Colby won’t be caught dead in those high stirrups.
And he can’t grow a stache.
I would wear a shirt with the finger on it, funny thing is I have one
but not Colby. He is way too easy going for that. He’ll deal with things better this year, he won’t like it, but he has 5 years of it no matter how you shake it. Unless he pisses Albert off and gets kicked off 
There was some talk in this thread about sloth on the field.
Some fans and flappy mouthed broadcastrs got on Yadier Molina this year for not running out some pops.
Molina is not built for speed. He is slow as molasses, even when running hard.
Molina is insead built for squatting. And he caught more innings this year than ever before, because he did not land on the DL this year. Catcher is a demanding, grueling job. Its too bad TLR did not give Molina more off days, but Molina played like an Iron Man. It does not bother me in the slightest if Yadier jogs on pops.
Any fans or broadcasters who want Yadier to run harder, should themselves strap on the tools of ignorance and take over behind the plate. See how they like squatting back there, game after game, and whether they like to run hard on easy outs.
Similarly Pujols is so achievement oriented, he too seldom comes out of the lineup. He is a warrior. Albert has played with a bum elbow for years that most crybabies would have asked for Tommy John surgergy and lost a season, but not Pujols, he plays through. He’s a gamer. TLR values wounded warriors. Good for him.
Hard to argue any of that Jumbo, but the customers don’t like it.
Unrelated topic: I was surprised that Thompson was so quick to accept a minor league contract.
Also, as to the issue of some players who have choices maybe having cause to not want to play here: Looking back a little, I wonder if a couple pitchers perhaps were not the money-grubbing ingrates they were made out to be. If so, I admire their ability to take the bad press with silent dignity.
A lot of customers have a superficial appreciation for the game. A few pitches behind the plate would wake a few of them up. I propose the Cards introduce a feature where a fan volunteer catches the first inning of each game, to lighten Yadier’s load, and in return Yadier will run harder on easy pops.
There have also been rumors about a funny clubhouse atmosphere. I dont know what these rumblings are supposed to mean.
Its well known that TLR is a no-nonsense guy, who does the best with what he has. He does not molly coddle people. In polls, a lot of players would not want TLR or his pal from Tampa Sweet Lou Pineilla as their managers. They are tough, demanding managers. And they have between them won the last 3 central division crowns.
If the ballplayers would like to play for a Tommy Lasorda or Bobby Valentine type, fine. These managers too enjoyed success. I dont think a manager has to be a jerk to be good. But I dont think TLR is a jerk either. He just tries to get the best out of what the Cardinals give him.
Some fans think TLR is hard on their favorites. Thats ok with me. If Brendan Ryan clowns around in the Clubhouse, he has to show on the field he is actually dedicated to playing well. If he does this, as he has, then he can still clown around off the field, on his own time. When players are on the field, they are suppose to focus on their jobs. Its got nothing to do about whether TLR likes somebody’s personality or does not like him. Its about doing your best and taking yourself seriously, as a player.
Some fans think every player should be treated exactly the same. I would say they all ought to be respected and treated fairly, in their individual ways, given their specific personal circumstances. Some guys are going to the Hall of Fame, some guys are lucky to even be in the bigs, not everyone is the same.
So then there gets to be innuendos, rumors, anonymous gossip. Some reporters like to report it to titillate the fan base, sell papers, stoke controversy. For the teams, all publicity is good publicity, even bad news is at least publicity that can help sell seats. I dont put a lot of stock in anonymous rumors about petty stuff. Players will whisper to reporters who will whisper anonyous stuff to fans. Happens in every city, I expect. Just the nature of Show Biz.
Jumbo, I am with you on the rigors of catching and how tough that can be on Yadi and we all agree that Albert can do whatever he wants because he puts up killer numbers. And I agree that Yadi is slow, but I’m sure other catchers catch alot of innings as well and maybe it is a non issue but it looks bad no matter how you want to sugarcoat it.
I remember the one game where Smoltz bunted a ball, Yadi was on first. Smoltz is running all out to get to first on a sacrifice bunt, the throw went to second where Yadi was trotting in standing up. He was out and I believe they turned a double play as Smolz was killing it to beat it out. The look on Smoltz’s face was classic as he glanced out towards second. I remember someone sitting by me say that Yadi ran harder back to the dugout than he did to second.
The game is different today and there are no more Pete Rose types and hustling for the sake of hustling is gone the way of the dinosaur. Older announcers and former players are the biggest critics of Yadi in regards to hustling because they are not used to seeing it out of position players. They’ll come around.
I believe TLR should tell all of the players to jog on sure out ground balls or not even run on pop ups so as to not make anyone look bad for doing the same thing. If they all do it maybe the cards can be the trend setters who accelerated the use of the position player jog in MLB
Blingboy, not too long ago, you made an extremely profound observation about bears. They just have to be bears and do their stuff.
I would offer that you should think about Clubhouse rumors in the same sort of way. There is a lot of strategic jockeying that must go on. Agents and players spin their stuff, the team puts forward its best view of things, reporters want to communicate everything they can to the avid public. We do not always hear all sides of baseball stories, let alone anonymous rumors.
BB – “Also, as to the issue of some players who have choices maybe having cause to not want to play here: Looking back a little, I wonder if a couple pitchers perhaps were not the money-grubbing ingrates they were made out to be. If so, I admire their ability to take the bad press with silent dignity.”
You made a good point about people being called jealous if certain things were mentioned about certain players. Why those players make the decisions they make are irrelevant and why would they care to start a rift between them and anyone just for the sake of doing it. Better to take the high road like you stated.
Pete Rose ran hard to first on walks. This was marketing Pete to the fans, so he would be seen as super gung-ho, an ultra fanatic, the guy who wanted to win more than the fans did. He had a crew cut. He was like a Marine who had swallowed a bottle of No Doze. Fans eat that stuff up. Like the pro wrestling stuff, Hulk Hogan and all those people.
Pete Rose, Charlie Hustle. The hustle was not just the run to first base, the Hustle was more like Bernie Madoff. Pete laughed all the way to the bank. Image and marketing. Pete figured out how to Madison Avenue himself and sell himself to fans. He did not set any stolen base records in terms of running hard to second when it counted. He impressed the minds of fans by running out the walks. Smart like a fox, I guess.
Its ok with me if the Cards find a backup catcher who can play more and share the load behind the plate. As a fan, I am generally not going to get down on the base running of a hardworking catcher, whoever he is, anymore than I would wish some pitcher would throw it 5 mph harder. I figure each guy is doing the best he can do.
Truth again Jumbo. Overlaying all of it is the contradiction of purpose when playing a game as a business.
Joltin’ Joe had to go. Running out walks was his middle finger salute.
Jumbo, I can tell you that after playing under TLR I haven’t heard one negative thing about TLR from my close relative. I mean not one. He has been nothing but complimentary on TLR’s preparation, organization, and virtually every aspect of what he does involving the game of baseball.
Jumbo – “Its ok with me if the Cards find a backup catcher who can play more and share the load behind the plate. As a fan, I am generally not going to get down on the base running of a hardworking catcher, whoever he is, anymore than I would wish some pitcher would throw it 5 mph harder. I figure each guy is doing the best he can do.”
I’d venture to guess that a backup catcher wouldn’t alleviate the image problem of Yadi.
As a fan I choose to expect a player to hustle most of the time and if one can’t hustle and catch then he needs to find another position.
As a coach I would probably view it the same way as does TLR. I would know that Yadi’s work behind the dish was more important than the effort he shows on the basepaths.
Yes sir, RC. I hope I did not seem to imply anything about Colby’s views. I was not. I figure Colby is 100 percent focused on playing and improving. I tend to support players and Colby is a player, ergo…..
I never go to games. I am the ultimate outsider. But I like to give TLR the benefit of the doubt about a lot of things and he seems to make reasonable decisions most of the time, given the choices open to him, with the players available.
I noticed Stasburg is missing another start, I wonder if he’s going to be one of those JD Drew types. Too soon to tell, but being a multi-millionairre all of a sudden can make the ouchies hurt worse than when you’re hungry. Unless you’re an Albert.
Jumbo – “Yes sir, RC. I hope I did not seem to imply anything about Colby’s views. I was not. I figure Colby is 100 percent focused on playing and improving. I tend to support players and Colby is a player, ergo…..
I never go to games. I am the ultimate outsider. But I like to give TLR the benefit of the doubt about a lot of things and he seems to make reasonable decisions most of the time, given the choices open to him, with the players available.”
Having coached a high school version of ALbert Pujols I empathize with TLR in regards to how he handles Albert. Like I have stated I would most likely, today, do the same thing TLR does which is let Albert do his thing.
I tried to force a player like Albert to be more of a teammate than an individual and he tore apart my team. The kid ended up being the 12th pick in the first round by the Texas Rangers. He was an absolute monster on the mound but I had to physically keep most of my players from beating him senseless. To this day he won’t come around our team or school and if he shows up at gatherings in Auburn and some of our former players are there he has to get out quickly for fear of getting a beat down. On the mound this kid was the best I have ever watched in high school but my coddling him early on turned his teammates against me and then against him. The reason I asked them later on was, they didn’t appreciate him not doing what the rest of the team did, no matter how good he was. And man was he good.
My problem was allowing him to not do what everyone else did because he was so much better than everyone else. I figured he deserved to be a little special. Then I tried to take it back when I had to pull people off of him who were trying to damn near kill him. When I tried to make him do like everyone else after letting him do his own thing, he turned on me. So now I’ve got my best player hating me, and hurting his play as well, and the rest of my team mad with me because I let him do whatever. Kiker ended up going 7-5 his senior year and he was one of the three best pitchers in the country. Our team ended up at 33-9, with two first round players and an 8th round guys as well.
Now I have since run off players just about as good as kiker because I did not want to go through it again.
But if I was in a position where I had that player for many years not just one more year I believe I would approach it like TLR where you keep that stud player happy and let everyone else figure out how to deal with it. Keep the talent happy cause they are gonna win the games for you. The other pieces I can fill in with whatever scrap I can put together but you can’t get the Albert’s but once in a managing career.
The privilege of not running out a ball in play is one that should be reluctantly given. I’m sure that it is. It is a symbol of the highest level of confidence and judgment that a coach affords a player with physical and fatigue considerations. The problem is, it creates envy because it is seen as a badge of achievement of the highest order to have gained such a confidence, such acceptance. Here in lies the problem……………………. it becomes an obstacle to good judgment in the players self regulating evaluation of their own performance. Too much self acceptance of a bad plate performance is the temptation to suddenly put on the badge of privilege and understanding that goes with a low effort jog to first, because everyone can see that you are a special and highly thought of player, whose judgment and effort is never in question…………………….. Albert earns the badge, Yadi envy’s it and wants the status, and it spreads like a cancer. This is the slippery slope……………..
It is what it is………..however, Tony does make a point on occasion. Yadi wants to catch the 20th win game, before he is ready to return. Tony lets him. He takes a sh-t…and no matter how many times he looks into the dugout, no matter how many times he lets a ball go by and another run score or a runner advance, burying Wainwrights Cy Young award……….Tony just watches. He lets him sit in the mess he made……………This is now the slippery slope……..because Tony doesn’t hold to his guns. He starts Yadi, batting 6th in the order 3 straight games against the Dodgers, as an apology of some sort it seemed. The human double play getting this nice encouragement from Tony………………………. Cards lose 6 straight and pack their bags.
Lesson……..if a coach displays the power of privilege and punishment, he better be fair, and he better be man enough to stand behind his judgments.
Jumbo – “Pete Rose ran hard to first on walks. This was marketing Pete to the fans, so he would be seen as super gung-ho, an ultra fanatic, the guy who wanted to win more than the fans did. He had a crew cut. He was like a Marine who had swallowed a bottle of No Doze. Fans eat that stuff up. Like the pro wrestling stuff, Hulk Hogan and all those people.
Pete Rose, Charlie Hustle. The hustle was not just the run to first base, the Hustle was more like Bernie Madoff. Pete laughed all the way to the bank. Image and marketing. Pete figured out how to Madison Avenue himself and sell himself to fans. He did not set any stolen base records in terms of running hard to second when it counted. He impressed the minds of fans by running out the walks. Smart like a fox, I guess. ”
4,256 hits later. Your comment’s prove my point, Rose wasn’t fast but was a hustler. His running to first base was to make himself appear to be one way to become more popular and cause the fans to love him more…………….. but you say those things were fake………like a pro wrestlers antics? And you are saying tat Pete did these things to dupe fans into thinking he was something he wasn’t.? Gotcha, kinda like pointing to the sky after a hit
It would be satisfying if the conversations on the thread the last couple days could be neatly wrapped up with a tidy conclusion. Not likely. I don’t think that Tony decided to come back for another year of more of the same though. I also think Albert found out what he thought he wanted is not what he thought it would be, and is not as happy as thought when he looks in the mirror. It’s the difference between knowing you can carry a team and thinking you can win all by yourself. The way the world works, even baseball, if your posse rides off, you’re screwed however tall in the saddle you sit.
It’s something for a baseball guy like RC to take the time and have the interest to verbally mix it up with an ordinary fan. Never expected to have the chance. I drive around and watch minor league, Indy, and college summer league games in the summer, high school too sometimes. I’ll probably do more of it next summer and if I get that far , I’ll cheer on your kids as repayment, and for the fun. I like the game more than the business.
I did not say Rose was not did not collect a lot of hits. He was a switch-hitter who made contact. And he was durable. He must have given effort.
For balance, Rose also gambled on games. In the great history of baseball, many men in uniform have not been saints. Rose was more fallen than many.
For a guy playing in Cinci, during the Nixon years, he invented a good persona and image. Crew cut. Race to first on walks. It draws attention, wins fans, helps put on the Show, earns money.
BB, yes, RC is a straight-shooter. He used to be encouraged to write a sports column. If we are nice to him and keep him around, maybe this will be a place for him to express himself.
This is a pretty permissive place, with a wide range of views, from WCBW all the way to Mo’s (oops, I meant to say mine).
Yea, and maybe someday his relative will have a statue next to mine (oops, Stans)