On Sunday, September 13, our recent article about the Cardinals prospect for three 15-game winners this season, “Pineiro misses 15th win but top starting trio close to history,” provided the basis of a segment of the “This Week in Cardinal Nation” television program, shown every Sunday on KSDK Channel 5 in St. Louis.
We are very proud to have been selected a fourth time this summer to be highlighted by our good friends at Channel 5, the Sunday home of the St. Louis Cardinals.
With Joel Pineiro’s next start, on Wednesday afternoon at Busch Stadium, he will have a third chance to complete this story. With a win against the Florida Marlins, he would join Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright to form the 21st trio of Cardinals 15-game winners since 1901.
Earlier KSDK Channel 5 segments featuring The Cardinal Nation blog:
“Carpenter’s historic strikeout-to-walk ratio”
“Pujols’ multi-home run and RBI games”
Lugo is having a tough day. Ludwick made the good adjustment with this pitcher. He backed of the plate. This guy hasn’t shown that he can work the outside. Can’t understand why Holiday can’t shorten up for the money against a guy like this. Really don’t no what to make of our lack of focus.
-1½
Florida -200
St Louis +170
tomorrows game. J. Johnson 14/4 Play ball.
Well……………………………. no way I bat Rick in the ninth. I’m bunting with Thurston for Molina, sacrifice with LaRue, and then try to score that run with the top of the order. They know Holiday likes the low pitch…….so they show him some. Terrible at bats. I would think if we are no again shows tomorrow and the Cubs win again, they will put Lohse away for awhile. Boggs will start Friday. The above line kind of suggests it.
The gifting of 3rd base to DeRosa the way he is swinging is bad for team chemistry.
I’m with you Westie! Freese needs to be elevated from Memphis asap and installed at 3B. He certainly can’t be any worse then the others. I can’t believe we gave up Chris Perez for DeRosa. Jess Todd even up for him now seems reasonable.
Ankiel is dead weight. He could strike himself out every time if he got to pitch to himself.
I think everyone’s biggest fear is that this offense(?) will embarass themselves against the Flubbies. Anything but lose to Chicago.
Brian, it looks like your work is going to become syndicated or something fancy like that. Will you still speak to us little people when you’re rich and famous?
Lets see. The Marlins with their ace tomorrow. Day off. Boggs vs hopelessly loose and out of it Cubs. Its obviously what we need. A gut check……………………. I’m sniffing a little pressure on some hero’s coming up here, mainly because we have so many anti-hero’s I would say. I can’t help but recognize some of the early contract posturing by the Cardinals possibly effecting Holiday. DeRosa just bidding time because we can’t tell him to sit down without hurting his feelings. You have to figure that this start took something out of Wainwright.
I watched the Giants and the Rockies…….yikes……… everyone is executing some much better than us. One run against West was a joke. We made no adjustments to a really rudimentary pitching plan. Everyone took their chance at uping their earning power with that special at bat. That the problem with one infielder and a catcher and a pitcher with multi year deals. Oh yeah, Lugo has a year……………… Dodgers just hit a walk off. Eithier is a hero.
DeRosa is ineffective because of a wrist injury suffered just after reaching StL. The guy needs an operation.
After the Memphis season is over, the Cards need to look hard at Freese as post-season 3B. Or Khalil Greene.
Boggs cemented his placement on the post-season roster.
There is a question about the 4th starting pitcher for post-season, given Lohse’s forearm problem. Maybe it will have to be Smoltz, who would have been nice for the pen.
If so, Carpenter, Wainwright, Pineiro, Smoltz.
Pen of 7: Miller and Reyes
Franklin, Boggs, McClellan, Hawksworth
On the bubble: Motte and Thompson
Injured: Lohse
Off the bubble: Wellemeyer
With his strong finish at AAA, Jaime Garcia would be another possibility for the post-season roster.
If we went with 12 pitchers, then Carp, Wainwright, Pineiro, Smoltz
Miller, Reyes, Garcia
Franklin, McCelllan, Boggs, Hawksworth, Motte
Sure, Axcion, when there is something to say… Riches and fame are clearly not in the offing, though.
Glauss is still a possibility at 3rd for post season. If he gets and stays healthy.
Ankiel really looks hopeless and clueless, and has really just stumbled along all season. The Cards have invested so much with him and come away with so little. He must be terribly frustrated to have such awesome tallent that he can’t do anything with.
Interesting point on Ankiel, bb. He was frustrated enough to have quit once before. Makes me wonder where that same point is for him as a position player.
Ankiel article from when he quit pitching, assumed MLB career over.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/rick-ankiel-ex-pitcher/
Even if Ankiel walked off a diamond for the last time today, he would have lasted five seasons longer than Brian Gunn’s baseball obituary written for him in March, 2005.
At the other end of the spectrum, it would have been interesting to re-read Gordo’s more optimistic column that ran at that time, but that is not possible since the P-D routinely deletes their on-line articles within months after they first appear.
The 2001 New York Times article is the one to read again, IMHO: link. A key point in it is that Ankiel first wanted to quit baseball at 14, but was not allowed to by his father. He wanted to quit in 2005, but was talked out of it by Walt Jocketty, among others. Probably wanted to quit several times in between, too, and maybe even since. Seems like Ankiel has spent years trying to do what others want.
Axcion’s comment that Ankiel could strike himself out is apt in that he wouldn’t have to throw any strikes to do it. I just now caught that, nice one Ax.
I’m thinking that Tony should put Matt 3rd, Albert 4th.
That might really shake things up BB. How about everyone just paying attention to the strike zone.
The Cardinals have a thing about offering at pitches solely because of the count. If Ankiel is sitting 2/0, the pitch has to be 55ft or less or have a possibility of making the stands, for him to hold back.
If its withing 3ft of the zone, anywhere, he will offer at it. Shumaker is also guilty of putting balls in play because of the count, distorted his swing and all.
Lohse is talking about film discovery’s concerning his wind up and release this morning. Ya think!
One more false start and they will put him away for the year to protect their investment. If the Cardinals continue to tank today, and the Cubs win again, I don’t see them taking a chance on that because they really need him now. They likely started him on anti inflammatory meds again .
Smoltz’s soreness is likely to be reoccurring. The pen needs him. Can’t believe they chance 5 straight innings again, let alone 6. And Franklin just sits and waits, not knowing where he stands.
Love the suspense.
The Cubs throw Lilly on Friday…………….. BB is right AX. Your Rick comment was a golden moment in sports insight. Gestalt! The door to a higher state of consciousness has been entered. Bring your own beer and cynicism, there hard to come by where your headed.
Lohse is officially not starting this weekend against the Cubs. Smoltz, Carp, Wainwright confirmed. Sunday night game on national TV should be huge for Adam.
Some folks here may be surprised, but Ankiel does not rank among MLB’s top ten in terms of swinging at balls outside the strike zone: link.
He looks like he is doing the best he can to catch up.
Albert didn’t look too happy when Colby popped up on 3-0, stranding 2. Maybe he gets the staredown now.
Your watching the perfect storm brewing BB. A collapse is a very real eventuality. I’m watching Franklin open this inning with a walk, lets hope he isn’t caught in a meaningless tide.
This is what you should look for. The Cubs, if they are predictable should loose tonight, emotionally avoiding the pressure of a chase. The Brewers should be able to exploit that. If the Cubs rip the Brewers tonight……………..heads up. The Cardinals aren’t just flat. They aren’t playing well either. Albert, slowed by his funk is no longer a pillar. Holiday may or may not be able to face his personal issues………………. The pitchers can’t hold up against these good teams without run support.
We really need the Memphis boys to spark these no contract sleepers. Ask the Mets how hard a collapse is to stop when your opponents are relentless.
1 for 13 with RISP
Cubs are bringing out their best this weekend – Lilly, Dempster and Zambrano.
Updating CCs post from the other day, Division Leaders, last ten games:
Cards, Tigers: 4-6
Yanks, Phils, Dodgers: 6-4
Angels: 7-3
That a strong lineup………….. tonights game is the tell. If they lose tonight, we will take the series. If they win, we may scrape 1 win. Its Houston in Houston that worries me and throw in the Rockies. Holiday will be the target now until he defends his position. After sucking wind on that high fastball, he gave up for any contact the other way. Not a bad decision, but no heroes were born making it.
One more thing………… Starting Ankiel was not unreasonable. Tony, batting him second was arrogant and foolish. The word flippant come to mind. Tony, you have been down that road before. Lets hope thats the last time.
This site draws its share of self-professed mind readers.
Ankiel tripped and collided hard into a wall back in May. He later disclosed problems regaining strength in his right shoulder. This is a plausible for diminished hitting this season. It is unnecessary to imagine mental ones.
Riches may not be in the near offing, but fame could come along. Its good to have an open access web site to disclose thoughtful reporting. Also the aesthetic layout of the site is nicely spare. Less can sometimes be more.
Now if we could just straighten out some posters and get them in the right frame of mind, it would be nifty. A few are worried about the mental state of our players and coaches, while I worry about the uncheery outlooks of a few fans.
Yes, the spartan layout is by design. We are bombarded by unwanted ads and popups seemingly everywhere we turn. Since this is 100 percent my site, I can do what I please. This is it.
Regarding fans’ mental outlook, read the FOX Sports Midwest live blog transcript today for a cross-section. As it seems often happens, the ones most concerned seem to be the ones most vocal. Still, diverse opinions are interesting. Full agreement on everything is boring.
September results may not be telling, but who among us would like the post season chances of a team with a losing record against winning teams, from July 23 through the end of the regular season, which may well be what we are looking at. (7W-9L as of now)
I say this with a cheerful countenance, I promise.
I actually would not care if the Cards were 16-0 or 0-16 in their most recent games against winning teams. “Who among us would like their post-season chances?” Count me as one. I am stalwart and unafraid, not a fair weather fan.
Oh Jumbo, you just had to go there; ‘fair weather fans’. Are you saving ‘bandwagon jumpers’ for your next post? So let me paraphrase what you’re inferring here: anyone with a negative opinion is not a true fan, nor do they have the right to express it. That about right!
While the rose-colored glasses thing might be a wonderful approach for you, that’s fine if it keeps you happen. If all the fans where that way, DeWitt would be complacent and just keep counting the higher profits. Sorry, but I disagree with you and I reserve the right to express that fact. It’s the fans who shell out good money and show an immense loyalty to the organization that makes it a winner and they have every right to demand a good product for their support. To that end they have every right to complain if their hard earned money is not being invested properly or utilized to the max.
As you recall, there was a huge ground-swell from the fan base earlier this year regarding the teams unwillingness to invest enough capitol to bring a winner to St.Louis. Consequently the organization changed philosophies in mid-stream and did what the paying customers demanded. This legion of bitchers and complainers, (fair) whether you like it or not has produced this team that you now have every confidence in to win big. Plus all the sunshine fans get to benefit from it. See the irony there.
The fact is that the fan base keeps the pressure on the organization not to let up. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. After all the fans are paying the freight and that in my books gives us all the right to lament the failings of Rick Ankiel, Welly, TLR or whoever else is stinking up the joint. If you can’t handle the heat………..go to the end of the bench.
And that my friend does not make us “fair weather”. Quite the contrary, it’s our passion for this team that drives us. If we were “fair weather or band-wagoners” we’d just go away and say nothing, but the fact that we are here and voicing our opinions is testament to our love for the St.Louis Cardinals Baseball Club. In fact, we want the organization to win more than the people with the “oh well, we’ll get them next year” attitude. So negatively or positively, I and the other posters reserve our right to freedom of speech whether you think we deserve it or not.
WCW and BB, thanks for catching that and no Westie it’s not a higher state of conscienous, only a frustrated barbed tongue. Injury or not, if Ankiel or DeRosa are using injuries as an excuse for their poor performance then they should be on the bench and a healthy person in the lineup. They are only hurting the team by trying to be heros.
The fact is this team has been experiencing a significant problem with the offense. The potential downside of our pitching staff burning out because these guys are unachieving is a very real concern. TLR has not tried to kick start this team with the trickery he use to display. He needs to herd them all into the showers, throw the bats all over the floor and lecture them on lollygagging if that’s what it takes. He needs to stop mothering them and give them some tough love. Just like he loves to do with Brendan Ryan in the press. Our lack of hitting with runners in scoring position should embarass any of these guys who profess to have professional pride.
And Westie I agree with you. Ankiel struck out 3 times yesterday so Tony rewards him with an assignment hitting in front of Albert. Was TLR trying to throw the game?
I don’t think it will happen WCW, but do you remember the Red Sox collapse (not sure of the year). They had something like a 15 game lead over the Yankees going into the end of the season and ended up losing out on a one game playoff on the Bucky Dent homerun. Of course, they refer to him in Boston in not so flattering terms and they don’t use his first name either. They replaced it with a word more likely to be seen on a condensed fire truck.
Anyway, I digress; the point is the precident has been set and is a very real possibility.
Having said that, Albert won’t let that happen. He’ll be there when we need him most.
Jumbo, as for Ankiel I’m a firm believer that he needs to back to his strength and that’s pitching. Rembrandt could of painted houses if he fired off a couple bad canvasses, but he didn’t. Now I’m not saying he did, but I’m willing to bet that some of the greatest artists threw out some works they didn’t like and we the public are none the wiser. The point is that we are all good at something and yes we’ll all have down times in that profession, but it doesn’t mean we have to give it up. Rick has a gift; an electric arm. The Michael Jordan experiment should be over after this season. Go back to what you do best Rick!!!
Count me in as one of the people that would like to see Jaime Garcia on the post-season roster. We could certainly use him against Philly, LA, Bos or the Evil Empire.
Not sure if Lohse can go or not, but my feeling on the rotation change for the Cubbies is that Tony’s getting a little nervous about this skid. Blowing this lead would be a huge humiliation for the entire organization.
Smoltz, Carp and Adam; do us proud boys. One more time for the Gipper! That is if Gipper is Dave Duncan’s middle name of course.
I love a good game. It doesn’t matter much who wins. I love the execution under pressure, the birthing of hero’s. We are likely to win the division. Very likely. The question is are we better for the road we traveled. I have criticized these hitters allot from day one. In my estimation they aren’t very good. I saw wonderful “play to win” hitting by the Marlins today. They are technically good enough to have a clue, a plan. We suck. Both Ankiel and Rasmus have a swing designed to humiliate high school and college pitchers. No one else in the league still uses that technique. They hit it far, but are no threat to move a runner or hit a sac fly. DeRosa has been gifted 3rd. He is just bait for good pitching right now. The Marlins located very well again today. Albert went for contact today and handed the baton to Holiday who looked terrible. I thought that was great. The Marlins depend on location and Shu worked them over. He knew where to look. The Cubs tunneled to night. If they are beaten tomorrow, its over anyway. They will still come in here with an attitude. Who will meet them with superior baseball. Lugo will play second on Friday. Ludwick and Rasmus and Holiday outfield. I hope Smoltz brings something. Hal is a terrible hitting coach. I want to watch the kids come up and hit. The ones that haven’t been over exposed to this idiot.
Axcion, I admire your passion. As I said, differing opinions are welcome here. That is good because there is one area in which we disagree.
I will paraphrase using your words from above:
You state without reservation that the legion of fan complainers caused the Cardinals organization to change their philosophy and the team on the field has been produced from those complaints.
I ask you to please offer substantiation for your conclusion. As you may be able to ascertain, I do not believe it.
Brian, do you believe that the Cards org is a business enterprise which does not respond to customer complaints with corrective action? Or do you believe that the org recognized the problem and planned the corrective action before the fans caught on and started complaining so that the one was not a consequence of the other? Or none of above? Just trying to clarify, not butt-in.
bb, you are not butting in at all. This is a public discussion.
No, I do not believe unrest by a small segment of fans last winter was a factor in the Cardinals adding Mark DeRosa, Julio Lugo and Matt Holliday this summer.
During the off-season, the economy was in the early stages of its downturn and attendance projections for 2009 were down. The organization made few roster changes over the winter, but promised there was “dry powder” for later, a comment that I and many others doubted.
How can the organization most accurately measure fan unrest? By the coffers. Once the season got underway, attendance was exceeding expectations as were results on the field. By summer, most unrest seemed to have quieted down. The team had been playing well, but clearly needed a boost. Unlike last season, this time they decided to go for it and made the trades.
I submit that adding DeRosa alone was far more proactive than anything done last year. If placating the fans was a factor, that could have been enough right then and there to appease them.
I believe the noisemakers are deluding themselves if they honestly believe their talk radio and message board protests had any substantive effect on the player moves made by ownership and the front office. Any speaking out they attempted to make with their wallets was clearly ineffective.
Listen, I was very critical (and still am) over the organization not making any moves last summer to improve the team. Like others, I made light of the dry powder comment looking ahead to 2009. But I don’t fool myself into believing even for one minute that a single word I wrote affected the business decisions of the Cardinals organization. In fact, if that is how they make their decisions, the shouldn’t be in their jobs.
I follow this organization closer than most and have seen no evidence whatsoever that could be used to connect these two data points – fan/media unrest and acquiring players mid-season.
It reminds me a bit of a previous generation of malcontents who took out a (misspelled) magazine ad then hired an airplane to fly a banner over the spring training field in an attempt to get Jocketty and La Russa fired then turned around and took credit for bringing the World Series win to St. Louis.
I find it amazing how some peoples’ minds work.
The Cards negotiated with the Rockies last July in pursuit of Holliday and/or Brian Fuentes. They were aced out on Holliday by Billie Beane, who provided closer Huston Street, CF Martinez, and a pitcher, an offer chosen by the Rocks over our serious offer of Schumaker, Ludwick, and Boggs. The Cards have been after a hitter to hit behind Pujols for a while.
The Cards gave up a lot of talent (18 years of cost control over 3 good prospects) for a short term rental of Holliday. The reason is to try to re-sign Holliday so as to provide a strong enough lineup to be able to re-sign Pujols, who is not going to re-sign here, unless there is a competitive team.
The world has an abundance of self-centered whiners and thumb-suckers. Teams need to sell tickets to these masses, so there is pressure to win in the short run, the reason why young John Smoltz was traded for aging Doyle Alexander or Lou Brock for Broglio. Informed fans have some sympathy for what the team tries to do, given the moderate earning power of the Cards franchise competing against much wealthier teams. The idea puerile minds posting on the Internet drive how the team runs its business is disrespectful of the Cards. Yet as a general rule, crying kids do not appreciate a better way to express themselves, something adults need to bear in mind.
As regards Rasmus, he is good defensively in CF and has contributed a solid season at the plate given that he is just a rookie. He is doing better than might be expected for someone who averaged.251 for Memphis.
DeRosa needs a medical operation. An injured wrist explains his hitting struggles. He is a tough guy to try to play through.
Hal McRae was a great hitter in the majors, Westie of course was not. Its a no brainer who knows more about hitting.
Axion, you want Ankiel to return to pitching. In 2007, Ankiel hit 43 HRs at AAA/ML. He slugged very well in 2008, before an injury. If Ankiel had not run into a wall in 2009, he would have enjoyed better output. You are entitled to wish Rick pitch again. Be prepared for frustration, since its not going to happen. He is a free agent after this season. You can boo someone else in a Cards uniform next summer.
Rick’s market value is rock bottom. If his performance really is due to injury, then a lot of talent could be had for little money. If that’s the case, maybe he’ll be back. But I’m not aware of any fact based reason to believe the performance problem is injury related.
Glad Taguchi got called up in time for this weekend’s series.
What is to be made of MLB’s decision to keep Cubs out of St. Louis until August next year?
bb, regarding the schedule, who knows? One part of me wonders if it is pendulum-swinging after all the complaints this season about the Cards and Cubs playing too much early. In reality, it is probably coincidence. MLB has to make some odd schedule gyrations to accommodate the dumb divisional alignments they created. I do at least give them some credit for releasing their schedules all at once. The past method of individual teams releasing portions and us having to piece them together was stupid.
Its a coincidence that would never be allowed to impede the Boston/NYY rivalry.
Jumbo!!!!!!!! I never!!!
Good observations by all. Maybe someone wants to see the Cubs have another chance at the playoffs BB, after they’ve had a chance to work the mid season trades? Money talks.
Would it shatter your world Brian if someone showed you a perspective that might disappoint you concerning “Cardinal Motivations”. Well it won’t be me………I’m a William DeWitt backer!
Watch some 2005 playoffs with ST Lou and Astros. The dashing APuJols is perfectly square and in his classic pose. He is gravitating towards that now. He picked up a bug when he was down last month. Hal McRae!!!!
My predictions last night were based on the false assumption that the Cubs and Brewers were finished with days off today. They were right, but none the less, if the Cubs win this afternoon, they maybe a bit more potent than I suggested. If they lose, its over anyway. ……………..Great Giants and Rockies game last night.
WC, I have listened to ownership bashers every off-season for at least the last ten years say the same things over and over with nothing of substance to back them up.
The owners are going to take five years tax advantage and sell the team.
The owners and manager live out of town so they don’t care.
The Cardinals will never win the World Series under this ownership, GM and manager.
The owners are cheap, siphoning all the profits out of the operation.
Blah, blah, blah…
All the while the team continues to win. The negative types then try to take credit when something good happens as if anyone important was listening to them. They were around long before you showed up and will be here long after you and I are gone.
I’m a BD supporter now Brian. Since your into challenges. There were 17 entities listed in the magical Cardinal Ownership Co-op……… Name them, or ask to have them named as research on an article. I will trade you a delicious tidbit for that information. Shouldn’t be a problem.
WC, here is the current list of 15 owners. Good luck in your sleuthing operations.
William O. DeWitt Jr.
Frederick O. Hanser
Andrew N. Baur
Stephen F. Brauer
G. Watts Humphrey Jr.
Nick D. Kladis
Donna DeWitt Lambert
Michael McDonnell
David C. Pratt
Michael E. Pulitzer
Pulitzer Inc.
Mercer Reynolds
Mrs. Richard H. Sutphin
Dudley S. Taft
John K. Wallace Jr.
So, the rascally scoundrels are unmasked. Or is it the knights in shining armor? No matter, its just as I thought!!! Prattle on, gentlemen.
blingboy, you wonder about facts.
Would you dispute how Ankiel performed in 2007? Would you disregard his strong first half in 2008, before the mid-driff muscle injury that he played through (and which lowered his OPS until they finally sent him to get an operation)?
In early May 2009, Ankiel slightly stumbled while extending himself for a catch, could not check his momentum, and ended crashing into a wall. Ankiel was out about a month. In about July, he got an MRI which pronounced that he could keep playing with a sore right shoulder, because the doctors did not think it would worsen from play.
If Ankiel had had a big year in 2009, consistent with his hitting in2007 and the first half of 2008, then he might be looking at a multi-year large contract this winter in free agency. Given his injury-influenced difficulties in 09, Ankiel will probably look for a one year contract in case he can generate big numbers in 2010 and get a big deal after next season. If his price is reasonable, Mo might possibly take a chance on a guy potentially capable of a 40 HR season swinging left. If Holliday leaves town, the chances of the Cards bidding on Ankiel for 2010 might increase.
The ownership of the Cards did a poor job in the 1970s. In the 1980s, Whitey Herzog somehow was able to overcome this and reach the World Series three times, very much to his credit. By the 1990s, Herzog left and corporate conglomerate ownership had the team on the rocks again.
In 1996, a new group took over with a dedicated focus on baseball, without distraction about beer, and has since been much more effective in the short-run. This new group has also been investing long term in scouting and the farm system to try to build a greater upward flow of homegrown talent, characteristic of the Cards in the 1940s and 1960s. Meanwhile, the former owner got taken over, so it exited the beer wars, as well as baseball ones.
Some might look at the 70′s as an example of a beloved owner, above criticism, fawned over by press and public, even though the team goes nowhere year after year. At the time, it went without saying, at least in public, that gussie had nothing at all to do with the team’s futility. To what extent that is true I don’t know, but my impression is that sports media types would have considered serious criticism a decidedly bad career move.
I don’t want to sound defensive, because I am not. I do not put a single label on a person or a group, nor do I want a label attached to myself. Depending on the issue, I could be considered either a supporter or a detractor of ownership.
To wit, here is a current example.
At the same time I am defending ownership here in this thread, I am in the midst of a discussion on the Scout.com Cardinals message board in which I am reiterating my issues with ownership’s inattention toward the history of the franchise.
Ankiel will receive a low ball offer from the Cards in the coming weeks. Boras will likely refuse it and look for a 1yr development deal. There are teams around that might want to actually work with his swing.
Brian, didn’t Purlitzer’s shares go to Lee and then back to the Cardinals?
I would have no problem with the Cards signing Ankiel cheap for next year and giving him a chance to have a healthy season. I just don’t think he’s of any use now.
bb, according to the many accounts I have read, Busch was very active in ordering moves even in the 1970′s. Certainly criticism was not allowed.
Ankiel had an OPS above 900 from April through July of 2008. This is what we could use now, but it has not been there.
The problem right now is we do not have a better option available for 4th OF who can play CF. Craig is no more than a LF (where Holliday plays) and Jon Jay wpuld be unlikely to contribute more than Ankiel. So Ankiel will be part of the Cards post-season team, whether this is popular or not. We do not have an alternative at AAA who offers more promise.
Hoffpauir will not make the post-season roster because we have Schumaker and Lugo ahead of him at 2B.
The one position player from Memphis who could match our needs is Freese.
WC, yes, the Pulitizer, Inc. 2.7% share did pass to Lee Enterprises when they purchased Pulitizer in 2005. Cash-strapped Lee sold them to some combination of the other owners last winter. The list above was supplied by the club over the winter so did not yet reflect that transaction. My guess is that the list is now 14.
The discussion of what Ankiel once was (and therefore holds the promise to again be) is a bit reminiscent of the arguments made in support of a fading Chris Duncan. Perhaps there are lingering health issues. Perhaps there are not.
I do agree that Ankiel is on this team until he leaves it. So was Chris.
The Cards will have either 5 or 6 position players on their post-season bench, depending on how many pitchers are carried.
LaRue, Lugo, K. Greene, Ankiel are near certain. Thurston is probable, since he adds another left swinger off the bench. That would be 5.
Glaus could be pinch-hitter, given Thurston, Lugo, and Greene can play 3B.
To add Freese, they would need to DL DeRosa or Glaus. In terms of postion players, this seems the major question.
If need be TLR can do something as outlandish as make Wainy the closer for 06 WS (or start Reyes in game 1),he could also send Schu back to the outfield.
Jumbo, Mo has already said to expect 11 pitchers and 14 position players. To make a correction to your statement above, the team could actually substitute a position player for an injured pitcher. So Freese is not necessarily tied to DeRosa or Glaus from an eligibility perspective.
Jumbo, Rick is caught in the backwash of the Holiday contract dialog with Boras. No one knows how exclusive Ricks performance is, one way or another, dependent on godfather Tony. His only hope to stay would be excepting a low ball offer from the team. That offer would be unlikely to float across the widening gulf. He is popular and sells lots of Jerseys to women without children though.
To reply to Brian’s post #0:
Duncan’s replacement of a neck disk sounds problematic. His operation may have relieved pain and done him a world of good, but to bounce back fully in the elite world of baseball hitting, his outlook seems uncertain. He will need to re-establish himself at AAA to enjoy another opportunity in the majors.
Did not Edmonds have “minor” shoulder operations? Rolen and Glaus have had shoulder operations. 3B is a position which seems to wear down strong men. I would be a bit optimistic about Ankiel’s potential to bounce back from a sore non throwing shoulder, provided it does not require an operation.
Westie, Daddy Tony did not take a bat, don Ankiel’s uniform, and rack up a 900 OPS for most of last season. TLR was a lousy hitter, back in his playing days. If a Hollliday deal were not to come to pass, Mo and Boras could find common ground on Ankiel.
Brian, it would be awkward to add Freese without DLing Glaus or DeRosa. It would be technically possible via DL’ing Lohse, but then we would have more position players than we want. I would DL Glaus first, because he probably cannot field or hit, whereas DeRosa can still field. Since there are possible medical justifications for DL’ing DeRosa, this gives Mo/TLR additional flexibility, if they see reason to use it.
Sadly, we know from experience that Rick can spontaneously combust without injury being a factor. That is at least a possibility.
Timing is the issue Jumbo. If Tony wasn’t the coach Jumbo, Rick would be gone right now.
Lohse’s injury won’t be DL’ed.
Incredibly bad pitching by the Cubs. Yikes, one more bad pitch and they will dragging their butts in here.
Bling, we know that Rick has unusual gifts and determination. He is not a run of the mill athlete. He was the finest high school accession pitcher in his year group, 1997. He shot up through the minors in just two years, a true phenom, with great Ks. At 20, he had a super rookie season, with the second highest K rate for a season among Cards pitchers reccently saluted in an article by Mr. Walton and Mr. Orf. Asked to start the first playoff game in a series, with an unfamiliar catcher with poor mobility who retired after the series, Ankiel threw some wild pitches.
Every year, some pitchers, usually Ankiels age but still safely for them in the minors and therefore seldom discussed, experience bouts of wildness. We have had it with Daley and Deggerman, among others. Its routine. Greinke had some issues with the Royals a few years ago and has since rebounded.
Ankiel suffered an elbow ligament injury on his way back, losing a year. Pitching, which once had been so easy, had become hard. He could not take it anymore.
He was happy to get a shot at being a fielder. He lost one year to a spring training injury. This was in his knee, not in his morale. He fought on, had a breakthrough awesome season in 2007, the best conversion from ML pitcher to ML OF since Ruth. He followed up on this during 2008, showing it was not a one year fluke, until an August 08 injury.
You seem to view Ankiel with doubt. You believe the struggles of a pitcher mean he must fail as a batter. This seems in keeping with a consistent fear of expecting the worst of our players. You should write what you think. But since it is a Cards web site, do not be surprised if some disagree with casual negative assumptions.
WCBW, makes one of his typical negative assertions when he says Ankiel would be gone if TLR were not the coach. But TLR is not the coach. (WCBW has been tutored and encouraged to call TLR the manager, but since not much versed in baseball, reverts to the football title, coach. Oh well.)
The Cards shifted Ankiel to CF in 2007, to provide coverage between departure of Edmonds and arrival of Rasmus. (Nowadays WCBW despairs of Rasmus. Happily this merely owes to Colby’s inexperience and he will improve during the years ahead.)
In 2009, the Cards shifted Skip to 2B, so as to give Colby a role as an extra OF. Since he averaged .251 at Memphis, the Cards wanted to bring Colby along in a gradual way, putting him on a path to success. The Cards hoped Ankiel would have a great season in CF, but the May collision with a wall has made his year more difficult.
The Cards were not determined to keep Rick this year at all costs, as WCBW alleges, offering him in a couple of trade talks that did not work out. Since they could not get good value for Ankiel, Skip was moved to 2B, to open a spot for Colby as a reserve.
Owing to Rick’s injuries, Colby has moved ahead of him in CF, showing the Cards play the best guy.
We need a roster with some extra players, not just 8 every day for 162 games, so there is ZERO reason to release or trade Ankiel right now. We need an extra OF. We do not have better at Memphis.
So the assertion Ankiel is only on the Cards because TLR favors him is simply another in the long stream of negative views about the team: DeWitt’s a bad guy; TLR is no good; Hal McRae is an idiot; Rasmus is no good; Pujols has morale problems; the Cards will release Ludwick, on and on.
WCBW may have some entertainment value, given unusual views. He can get points for originality and sometimes even contribute insights.
But he also sometimes gets booted off Cards bulletin boards because of negativism based on reasons that can be unpersuasive.
That … was a lot of posting right there today.
That was great Jumbo. ………… Anyway, we should win the Cubs series. Jumbo, I’m a big Colby fan from the beginning. He wasn’t being tutored well here. Still isn’t. When Chris was here Tony could have cared less what happened to Colby. Just another excuse to play who he wanted. Point, how long does it take to learn a little about taking a lead?160 clinics with multi hr pre game meetings. At one point Colby famously turned away from Hal and Cardinal coaching, thats when he started to hit. You should follow the team more closely. You are mis informed about most of your points, but I have given up educating you. You have needs I can’t fulfill. Bless you though Jumbo.
Fan boards have a purpose jumbo. They are for the the people that need to use them. There is most often a profit motive behind their illusion of coherence or neutrality. They have a function. I have often went beyond Board purpose to talk about my concerns. That doesn’t often fulfill a board normal function I will grant you that.. Now that I’m a BD advocate, I have little to say that most people without full understanding can comprehend anyway. I think the environments of both the Viva site and the Scout site are much improved without my comments. The moderators and folks are comfortable with their interpretation of reality. The interpretation that most fulfills their need for being there. Isn’t that why you are here Jumbo, instead of there. Because of your definition of comfort. Your needs. Jumbo, I will talk to you at some point about your real concerns. Its not the right time for me or you I think.
I agree some boards will tend toward conformity, sometimes owing to small membership or owing to a craving for belonging and affirmation from others.
I tend to be libertarian in terms of comfortable with expression of a wide range of views and beliefs, including ones far out of the mainstream. For this reason, I can try to set WCBW on track, but if he chooses to fly in the wrong direction, its not my responsibility.
Since there are not a large number of posters here and there can be a lot of pessimism, plus some psychological gibberish, I decided to uphold that the Cards are not complete chumps, as some fear or believe. Do I have a “need” to resist unpersuasive opinions? I dont feel especially needy about this, more the contrary. Whether that is good or bad, I shall refrain from voting.
When a man hits a ball solidly, he tends to look good. When he misses it, he tends to look bad. Its possible to think the first time his swing was lovely and the second time ugly, even if the swing itself was identical. Its possible to observe too closely and miss the forest for all the tree-trunks.
Jumbo, I think Brian would tell that this Blog has quit a following, even though few write here. All the heroes read Brian’s opinions and research. I’m confidant they look in on some of our threads too, with all their peculiarities. Some folks with fewer personal needs actually remember what is said here and follow the implications as they manifest. This is easily the most well informed board on any of these topics. I would wager that if a competition were held in which an understanding of the present with accuracy could be judged by its predictive ability, we would win hands down. I know some would say,” but WC, you just did the exact opposite of Jumbo said.” WC would say,” it doesn’t matter what a compass reads, I mean is it point true north, or not south.” How can you find enough light to read a compass in this forest anyway.”
Westie, I do not see Brian as especially needy in an emotional sense. He writes about a topic that he likes, the Cardinals, to explicate them to readers. He needs to earn a living, but riches are not in the offing or so he modestly advises. Because this is his occupation, he needs to stay within a zone of acceptability and reasonability for his target clientele.
Because this is not my web site, I can go a bit further afield than Brian in terms of opinion, be more unconventional or iconoclastic. I only do this if the viewpoint seems reasonable to me. I do not do this to be provocative or win friends, nor do I have an axe to grind. I get no remuneration and incur no financial risk, both liberating. I seldom watch games, because its quicker to check a box score and a few articles. I will disagree with Brian about nuances, to keep him on his toes. I do not try to suck up. Since Briian is a fine analyst and wordsmith, there are seldom reasons to question.
You, on the other hand, avidly watch games and from this time commitment will get more frustrated by defeats. You tend to have a short term outlook, whereas baseball is a long season and it can be good to be patient and let things even out, as they often do. I generally agree with what the Cardinals are trying to do, though if something seems wrong, I can object, as when I (and many other loyalists) finally lost the bubble and felt Chris Duncan had to go. Mo agreed.
In general, I do not try to decipher many of your posts. You can write away. But if things get too wacko or unduly pessimistic, I will suggest a more rounded outlook.
Okay Brian, I will concede some of your points, however, with all due respect I will disagree with a few opinions of yours.
Regarding your “small segment of fans” comment; could you please show me the surveys that you and/or the Cardinal organization did to determine how many fans were or weren’t upset? As you know, I don’t live near St.Louis to be down at the bars talking to people to get their opinions. I only have the message boards and your website to view fans opinions. Actually, I believe some of the wretched scribes took a few shots at the org for their failure to deliver from the fall of 2008 and on. Even the manager was upset that no help was forthcoming. It seems to me, and of course I don’t have wads of paper work to back this up, but I believe that Mo and Bill took a great deal of criticism for that and it only got worse when Mo made promised of off-season aggressiveness that failed to materialize. That is why the focus switched to DeWitt for being the bad guy, having undercut Mo’s plans of spending. You may be bang on in that DeWitt may have told Mo: Hold off for now, but if the attendance is up I’ll give you some more cash to improve the team. In all likelihood, that was probably the case, however, the fan pressure from more than just a small ground swell of fans was pushing them to do it anyway. Mo’s not stupid, he knew the fans wanted his head on a platter. He could not afford to NOT make the moves and that is from the fans.
I actually stopped going to the other message boards because I thought the people were being way over the top with some of their extremely negative views. I don’t think DeWitt’s a bad owner at all. He always supported Walt when he needed to add some pieces going down the stretch. They have been a winning org under him. Unfortunately he decided to take a negative business approach to this season that the fans wouldn’t show up as often. He obviously underestimated the passion of all Cardinal fans. Again, I assume that DeWitt is a wealthy man and could have, for one season anyway, taken a smaller profit margin. I think a lot of fans took his stance as being greedy and not prudent business sense.
Speaking of business, I think any business person will tell you that the market is driven by the customers. BB is bang on! If you don’t listen to your customers then you are a flat out fool. Marketing firms make billions every year trying to figure out what the customers want and respond accordingly. It’s called staying in business. Having been in the business world for 25 years, I have seen significant changes made based on what advertisers want or customers demand. In the Cardinals case, and we’d have to check with the PR people to see just how much feed back they got. It sure seemed to me, reading what I did, that the fans were miffed in a big way. I know from having this discussion before that you disagee with the org reacting to fan pressure, but for the decision makers to all of the sudden change their philosophy on team building in mid-stream when they resisted it the year before, you have to admit something pressured them into it and I (IMHO) say it was the paying customers.
Being you are a writer, I’m actually astounded that you think the voice of the people is meaningless. To quote : “I believe the noisemakers are deluding themselves if they honestly believe their talk radio and message board protests had any substantive effect on the player moves made by ownership and the front office.” You and I will certainly agree to disagree on this one. The power of the people, especially the noisemakers created America. If only the British had listened………..
Jumbo, the world also has an abundance of mindless, butt-kissing yesmen who follow blindly along without ever questioning why and they buy tickets too. Normally we call these Cub fans, but the Cards has a good portion of these sunshiners also. This is good for the ownership group because they don’t demand a reasonable return on their investment. Of course that’s the difference between idealists and realists. Realist review all the facts and comment on them whether it’s negatively or positively. They call it like it is.
I do conceed that you need that balance though. Even though Idealists tend to be pretencious know-it-alls, we still need them because it keeps the realists in check and quite frankly, sometimes they’re right.
Those self-centered whinners and thumb-suckers you speak of; didn’t their ancestors creat america by telling the British to get lost? Damn realists!
One last point Brian. I’d love to have Mozeliak and DeWitt take a polygraph test and say that fan pressure had nothing to do with their moves and change in organizational philosophy. Then and only then will either of us conceed to the other. I’m sure one of those talk shows down there would sponsor it.
“Westie, I do not see Brian as especially needy in an emotional sense. He writes about a topic that he likes, the Cardinals, to explicate them to readers. He needs to earn a living, but riches are not in the offing or so he modestly advises. Because this is his occupation, he needs to stay within a zone of acceptability and reasonability for his target clientele.”
“Huh! “Do you see any Indians Corporal Westie”…………………… “Okay! I’ll have the buffalo sandwich Jumbo”. (1960′s sitcom, F Troop) Its not about pages Jumbo. Its not even about chapter or book. We live in different Galaxies.
I’m sorry about this Brian.
AX, I know your right. I have explained the foundation for many of the maneuvers that occurred. Now that BD has taken over operation of the team, his sense of business moves are a little more like current Wall Street tactics. Cash in assets, transfer capital to high risk, high yield investments, Bank the increased cash flow (ticket sales and concession) then cook the books (powder kegs) in 2010. Fast and loose. Its odd, but its a competitive expression. It is impossible guess what he will do, however, nothing he did changed his business plan. Since the fan disparagement of his Faberge Eggs was so unified………..he sold them, taking advantage of the fans expressed desires. He also won many concessions in fan perception, but hey, that’s the game. Now everyone thinks their ticket money goes directly into player enhancements. That is an incredible achievement that I’m sure has every owner in baseball mystified and envious. He’s good.
Axion, its convenient for some angry fans to portray themselves as heroes. They see themselves as self-less martyrs for making the Cards better by chewing out cheap ownership. This transforms their flaws into, surprise, virtues, worthy of our admiration because they tell-it-like-it-is.
Another way to see such folks is just as angry or lacking in civility or coping skills or in knowledge about baseball from some aspects, such as business. They can alternatively be viewed as road-ragers along the Internet super-highway, cursing life. Why is some minor league still employed, is he DeWitt’s cousin? He should be fired. Off with his head.
Baseball can be helpful by providing a topic to vent about. Given that the world has many much more serious failings and stresses, sports can provide a convenient source of relief. Yell at an umpire (to express anger at an authority figure dressed in the black of a judge) or the manager or call the hitting coach an idiot or blast the owners as miserly. Expressing this may be therapeutic and genuinely make someone feel happier about other things in life. In this way, Bill DeWitt and Mo and Tony and the gang can perhaps serve a genuinely useful function for society by acting as lightning rods for the stresses that people feel within other aspects of their lives.
I have lived in other major media markets and have seen criticism that makes what happened in St. Louis look trivial in comparison. I never said the fans have no voice. I said the people upset did not take action in any manner that measurably hurt the team. Ticket sales have been exceeding projections, so did this groundswell of angry fans stop coming to the games? Did they hurt the team’s revenue? Were there protests? Petitions? Organized opposition to the club? Were the team and city embarrassed at All-Star time because the discontent put St. Louis in a bad light across the baseball world? Nope, none of that. Just winter buzz on the call in lines and internet message boards that died down months before this summer’s trades.
Show me a team that doesn’t elicit the same kind of noise. 22 teams will miss the playoffs entirely and their fans will understandably be upset. Fans of the other seven teams will get angry when their teams are eliminated. It is what keeps sports talk radio in business.
In fact, here in Cardinal Nation, there was a segment of fans upset that the team won the World Series, saying it was the worst thing that could happen as it would serve as an endorsement of ownership’s stewardship of the club. They discounted the championship because it was “lucky”. Some can never be pleased, so why listen to them?
Brian, there was in 06 and still is now, an undercurrent of resentment toward ownership going back to the new stadium thing when the Owners got the money and stiffed us on ballpark villiage, then the spearhead Lamping scoots out of town. For many, me included, the 06WS title didn’t salve the sore spot, and I think you know what spot I mean. Lets remember that as of right now they still haven’t spent any real money to improve the team.
bb, your outlook is somewhat misinformed or incomplete. The team was in the doldrums in the early 1990s, under conglomerate ownership. They got turned around pretty quick circa 1996/97. The new owners spent money on McGwire, Benes, etc.
All over baseball, not just in StLouis, local politicians will tend to give some financial help to building new stadiums.
Your feeling of being cheated on ballpark village overlooks the massive collapse in real estate values across the US. There is simply no economic reason for building more retail and condos. Yet you resent the owners for not doing something that no longer makes any sense, given the changed economy.
Ownership has made a strongly increased commitment to scouting, to internatiional recruitment of talent from the Dominican and Venezeula, and the Cards now have more minor league teams than any other system.
Some fans think that the only way to build a team is by paying premium prices for ML vets during their winter period of free agency. So if we do not win the bidding of Texiera or Carlos Lee or Barry Zito or Jason Schmidt, this means ownership has cheated you. Talk radio and others try to fuel such anger. In reality, if we had signed bad financial deals like Lee or Zito or Schmidt, it would be a lot harder to compete in future. Signing players at their highest prices would seldom make much sense for a modest market like St Louis, which can never possibly raise the money of big market cities like LA or NY or Boston.
There tends to be feeling among some fans that because the price of their tickets is annoyingly high, therefore this ensures that the Cards can outspend other teams. This is naive, since the bigger money for teams is in cable TV for much bigger cities.
The Cards spend a lot more today on ML salaries than back when Busch was running the show. They also spend a lot more on scouting, bonuses for amateurs, and on minor league development.
Nonetheless, a lot of fans imagine that if they complain and express rage on the Internet, this is a good thing because it will make things better for their team.
We’ve all heard the spew from apologist toadies often enough.
The public perception was based on the bottom line, taxpayers did their part, owners didn’t.
blingboy, you seem to hold some feelings of anger and resentment. I harbor none about baseball. This is our basic difference.
If a contract was drawn up regarding ballpark village, it must have had provisions that allowed the team not to build, if the economy soured, as it has. The owners are not in jail, right? Therefore, the contract that they had must not be breached. Why not direct your anger toward whatever politicians made the contract or who thought taxpayaers should contribute to a new stadium? Just curious. Politicians were the ones who decided to commit public funds to build a stadium.
Politicians can be expected to be stupid and careless with other peoples money. It would be like getting mad at a bear for crapping in the woods. Taking advantage of that fact to screw the public is an industry, I admit, but that does not warrant absolution and a ticket to heaven.
BB, I have found one thing we are in deep agreement about: our elected leaders being fallible as regards money. They love to look for ways to buy love from voters.
I like your reasoning about bears. Very insightful!
I still think it would be nuts to build Ballpark Village right now. Property values have fallen 40% in some metropolitan areas, and I am not so sure that our leaders will not find a new way to engineer still more economic downturn.
Agreed!
Somebody once said that democracy is deeply flawed, just better than any other means of governing.
One great thing about democracy is every few years we get to choose between the dopes or crooks we know well already, versus new ones whose inevitable human short-comings are not as yet as revealed to us. I enjoy voting and weighing these choices carefully, trying to guess based on limited information who may turn out to serve society least badly. Its kind of like baseball, you look at the stats of the players, but how they will do in post-season or next summer, its not a sure thing.
The ultimate goal is to win the WS. If people are unhappy with that, then I would put them under the heading of “fair weather fans”, but otherwise I find the term disrespectful to any fan who just wants to vent frustration within reasonable bounds. No one inside or outside of the organization is infallible and therefore will make mistakes; even TLR. Jumbo would have any negativity sensored and that’s certainly not the American way. He would also label them with broad strokes, but that’s not right either.
Fans who only follow the team when they are winning are fair weather or band wagoners. Sanctimonious people like to use these terms to discribe passionate fans who are always with the team, but get upset when things aren’t going well and thus dare to critisize. The real fans have passion: good or bad. They are in no way to be confused with the people who walk into the office and ask ‘how the Cards did last week’.
Jumbo, brings up an interesting term; democracy. I believe that, in such, you have freedom of speech. Well…..politically correct speech anyway. So if I want to question why an organization would keep a cronic underachiever when other more successful prospects have been shown the door, I think I have a right to do that. If I choose to point out, albeit with my sarcastic splendor, that Ankiel couldn’t hit some of the pitches he swings at with a canoe paddle; that is my right. Unless Rick suffered a debilitating concussion or permanent eye damage, I don’t think his pitch selection has anything to do with his crash into the wall. Maybe he could reach the potential Jumbo thinks he’s capable of if he’d just learn to be more disciplined. I’ve always supported Ankiel in the past, but he is self-destructing, just like he did when he was on the mound. When you see that kind of potential go down the drain, as a fan, he makes you angry because you’vd seen this movie before. Wild pitches have turned into wild swings.
Brian, one last word on the subject, but not from me. This from Joe Strauss:
Has Mozeliak ever stated that he felt pressure from the fan base to make some trades this year and did that have any impact at all on his decisions to go ahead and make the DeRosa, Lugo and Holliday deals?
Joe Strauss: Mo’ has not made such an allowance, but a number of folks within the front office and elsewhere within the organization are convinced fan interest/outrage and media scrutiny helped push a few buttons. I also believe comments made by Albert Pujols in June played a significant role in motivating the front office. After going public with his “they’re not blind” comment, El Hombre was kept abreast of the club’s maneauverings. Coincidence. I think not.
Axcion, in my opinion, it would be very difficult, perhaps impossible, to find a media source to ask whose answer would be more predictable than the Post-Dispatch, the official bearers of the “DeWallet” flag. In quizzing the P-D in a public forum if they believe they initiative they led was successful, what would you expect them to say?
That wouldn’t happen in 100 years. Instead, the reply suggests unnamed people other than the GM or owners felt it “helped the pushing of a few buttons”. Carefully worded so vaguely it could never be disproven. He also specifically re-iterated Mozeliak has not acknowledged fan impact.
In my dictionary, “pushing buttons” equates to causing anger. I have no doubt that some of what has been written and said made the front office angry. After all, the childish and unprofessional name-calling was getting personal. We saw one of Strauss’ earlier chats where Mo went off on some irrational complainer suggesting he lost his job and his girlfriend, car wouldn’t start, etc.
That irritation is very different from driving multi-million dollar business decisions, however.
Strauss then went on to very clearly state that he believes Pujols’ pressure was “significant”, providing a supporting example. That suggests to me which of the two named factors he feels may have been more important, for whatever that is worth.
Do I believe that pressure from Pujols (and TLR) could have played into the club actions? Perhaps. That seems plausible to me.
Continue to believe what you want, as will I.
Advise to Mo, just say this:
Feedback from customers and key members of the organization is important to any business, including the Cardinals. The decision making process incorporates these and many other factors so that it isn’t possible to say a certain factor led to a certain decision.
I agree 100%, blingboy.
effective obfuscation is an art
… an art practiced by the media as well as front office officials… Trying to sort through it all keeps us engaged…
The Kennedy deal is a good example of MO/BD negotiating with Tony. The call ups were exactly the same tact. Both sides found an agreeable convenience, an accommodation if you will. Tony wants to play with what he brought. Veterans. Its his style. If we have to go to LA, and then Philadelphia to open these series, we’re out a luck. We let Smoltz down hard last night. Getting Franklin some work was an ouchy. To be honest, watching the struggles of Ankiel and Greene for another week could do some real damage. The real meaning to the Craig snub lies with Albert. He wants every at bat he can get in his race for records. This is being allowed for obvious reasons. Its a business.
Re Ankiel, Greene (& others past and maybe present) Is Tony getting sentimental in his old age.? Seriously. Has keeping guys who can’t help always been a thing with him, or a more recent development?
WC, just as soon as I say I am not going to react to your posts, here I am.
Suggesting that Albert is behind the Cardinals not calling up Craig is utterly ridiculous. Are the Phils sitting Ryan Howard? Are the Brewers sitting Prince Fielder? Are the Yankees benching Mark Teixeira because they clinched? Teams play their best players – the ones the fans pay to see. That ain’t Allen Craig or any kid from Triple-A.
I also don’t understand your comment about damage by watching Ankiel and Greene struggle for another week. They have been pretty consistent in their struggles all season long. Are they nearing their expiration date or something? (By the way, Greene has a whopping total of two at-bats over the last week. I doubt he has cost the team any wins during that time.)
bb, TLR is not the GM. Each has input to the other, but in essence, the GM sets the roster and the manager decides who plays. The Cards are paying considerable money to both Ankiel and K Greene and at this point, waiving them makes no sense. Now, the question of who is deserving to be on the playoff roster is a different discussion.
Good points but I would mention two things.
1. The money is pretty much already paid.
2. After a team clinches, spectators remain only interested in seeing big stars crank out homers, while knowledgable fans would appreciate at look over the horizon. In STL at least, next year’s possibles would be a draw for most I think, and a dissapointment for a minority.
Gotta disagree with you on point #2, bb. All I have to do is count the flashbulbs when Albert bats to know who the majority are coming to see. That will not change during the final homestand. When the rookies bat, some will head to the restroom. Not so when Albert is up
I am not arguing which is the best strategy or which group is the smartest, most forward-thinking fans. Just disagreeing with your characterization of the majority.
From a technical stand point Brian, Albert has been looking to singles away and middle, allot, lately. He is unquestionable trying to up his average playing for the TC. He is now caught between the controlled swing and his normal cut. He is struggling with these adjustments. He needs rest, and could of had it without a huge step down in the team chances to win. That decision was made by people that see what he is about…………….. Ludwick can’t stop reacting to the Arbitration comment. He is desperately trying to enhance his power numbers. It never occurred to Rasmus to do anything else but follow that agenda.
I see Ankiel all to well. So do his teammates. There comes a time when you see KG sitting by himself on an empty bus, in the back, for 25 minutes, just starring straight ahead, that the guys vibe is probably effecting the new teammates. These guys are still here, do to contractual gaffs and responsibility denials. There ballast is enough to sink this ship. If we go into the playoffs 3/6 from this point on. We will loose. Early. The best distraction from these problems would have been the kids bringing some enthusiasm, some locker room levity. Instead, we are the walking wounded and the shell shocked…………….these variables create the loser. Remember, first round out costs you the coaching staff, Holiday, and most likely Pujols in the end………. Not good.
WC, I cannot assess the impact of KGs presence on the rest of the club. Having been in the clubhouse in past Septembers, I can assure you that Cardinals rookies are expected to conform to the team’s unwritten all-business approach. That tone is set by TLR. For example, I don’t believe for a minute that adding Allen Craig to the other Triple-A guys called up would magically transform this team. Instead, he would be just one more guy hanging around.
Albert lost the TC in August. He would be wise to rest and focus. At some point responsibilities to teammates has to supersede personal interests. Pitching and team are separating under stress. I have concerns for the Colorado series. Smoltz was very elegant in his loss last night. If the offense rolls over in Denver, one of the heroes is going to come up lame trying to win an award. Its getting cold up there.
I wanted to see what type of appetites Craig had. Just me.
Albert lost the Triple Crown for two reasons in my opinion. First, Hanley Ramirez is having an insane season. Second, before Holliday arrived, Albert expanded his strike zone and his average suffered as a result. Nothing to be ashamed of though. Albert’s .330 average in 2009 is just four points under his career average.
The Cardinals are trying to win games to secure home field advantage. While that seems to be unimportant to you, it does matter to some, including TLR, I bet. His vote trumps ours.
You are not the only one rattling on about Craig. I liken him to the Cardinals back up quarterback. You know, the guy who never plays but who everyone just knows is great. The facts say that Craig wasn’t even the the best third baseman on his Triple-A team. The world can wait to see what Craig can do in 2010.
I don’t care about home field????????????????
Albert will likely get a day or two off, so will Matt, and pinch hit ops come up all the time. I don’t see where Craig would mean less playing time for any of the stars. The back benchers get played more post clinch anyway so what’s the difference from the fans perspective. How many fans would rather see LaRue spell Albert? Rather see Thurston spell Matt? Flashbulbs don’t go off when any of them pinch hit.
Sorry, WC. Didn’t mean to misrepresent you. What I was trying to say is that in a quest for home field, there is a reason the starters will play more than one might think they should over the final games.
When TLR gave Holliday a day off a couple of weeks ago, he said it would probably be the last one all season. I am sure you know that TLR is not a big jokester.
There is harmony in competence. I have outlined a number of selfish motivational behaviors that I’m watching. Lets see what the consequences are.
I agree BB. Tony is a control freak. I am not recognizing a genius at work here. He found a place to give Rick a pinch hit yesterday………that had nothing to do with winning. He was trying to bolster Rick against Colby’s Tuesday onslaught which is discouraging to Rick.. He is babying psychos.
Brian, somehow I feel the need to apologize for reopening this can of worms. I’m certainly not as in the know as you when it comes to the P-D politics. Perhaps these guys do take credit for turning around the Cards, which was mentioned way back in someones post I think. Like BB says; there are way too many variables that have led to the contingency plans kicking in mid-season. My ‘theories’ I believe to have been a factor in enacting an earlier than expected business plan that you believe was the sole factor is causing the change in philosophy. I certainly see exactly what you are saying and it’s hard to argue the truth as we speculate it. (There’s an oxymoron for you.) You are more inclined to believe the truth as dictated to you by the organization. It’s part of your job to show a certain trust, otherwise you risk being ostracized, which is not good if you make your living reporting on them. As a fan, I have a little more leeway in my judgement of what I accept verbatim and what I can speculate on as being propaganda/hype/little white lies. In the end, you and i will agree to disagree in principle on this one.
WCW, you have either finally gotten too much sun or you are baiting Brian to get him going.
Albert being selfish….padding his stats. Surely you jest!!! The goal is to win home field advantage whether you want it or not so be prepared to see a lot of the regulars until that issue is decided. Albert, as we all know, is an extremely astute individual. The MVP is pretty much wrapped up, while the TC has gone by the wayside and I’m sure he knows that no one is catching Hanley.
I think that kind of talk about Albert is the kind of negativity that got Jumbo so worked up. It’s so unnecessary and in my opinion; way off base. My advice is to cut back your tanning hours out by the pool.
Axcion, no apology required for bringing up any Cardinals-related topic, even a second or third time. We all share a passion for the organization.
I do have to comment on one point in case letting it pass might be construed as tacit agreement. I want to be clear that the organization dictates nothing to me and any implication that I might orient my reporting to curry favor with them is both unfair and inaccurate.
For example, when no moves were made last summer, I doubt anyone was more outspoken in disbelief of the party line than I was. I do not assume everything said is a lie, however. I apply my years of experience and make a judgment call on a case-by-case basis.
BB & Brian; the Allen Craig issue has certainly been beaten to death all over the place. I think all of the fan base would love to see what this kid is capable of. To have him sit on the bench for the rest of the year and learn the expectations of the manager and his peers I think would be tremendous for him. So he only gets one or two at bats…big deal. That’s not the point because I don’t think Pagnozzi, Greene or Kinney seeing much action either. Learning to carry on the legacy of a winning organization is the important thing here.
Tony likes to blow smoke up the collective touches of the fifth estate when he claims production will dictate a players statis in the lineup. Well we all know that to be a half truth since he likes to experiment regardless of performance. One way to get to the majors is to out-perform your peers. Allen Craig did that in spades for the last two seasons, with the possible exception of Freese. Craig earned his chance of promotion this year with another outstanding display of (bat) skills. He should have been rewarded with the ultimate goal, whether it would have been to just sit on the bench or not. To not promote your best player from Memphis was a slap in the face to the kid. What more could he have done? Pagnozzi can’t hit, but he’s good defensively. He got called up, not on his outstanding efforts, but because he is the best of a weak lot. Didn’t really earn it. Greene is up solely for his base stealing abilities, since we don’t need more middle infielders. Was he better than Craig? Nope! The inconsistent Josh Kinney was rewarded for past deeds. The only player more deserving of a promotion was David Freese……based on performance. IMO, Allen Craig was left off the roster so he wouldn’t potentially embarass TLR;s bench players and that’s political crap. Tony’s loyalties to the vets are legendary.
Axcion, here is a quiz for you. Who was our Scout.com 2008 Cardinals Minor League Player of the Year (for the entire system)?
Hint: He played for Memphis at third base all season long and had a tremendous year. Also, he did NOT get called up to the majors last September.
His name: David Freese.
Stuff happens. Last year. This year. Next year.
I don’t recall if you are a Scout.com subscriber or not, but if you are, please go back and check out my August 11 article in which I predicted the September call ups. Craig was not among the nine names I listed. It wasn’t because I was worried he would show up the bench players or some other conspiracy theory. He has no MLB experience and I knew this wasn’t the time for him to get it.
Now I need to apologize! I didn’t mean to infer you were a bought and paid for cheerleader. Everyone here respects your indepth knowledge of the team and your unbias approach to reporting. I just meant that you may be more obliged to accept that the team would respect you enough to give you the facts and not use you as a vehicle to help cover up any screw-ups. I think your integrity is beyond reproach. But I’m betting you know some writers who are public relation extensions for the team.
Boy, backpeddling on this unicycle is harder than I thought. ((:
That’s a good point Brian and suppose it wasn’t such a big issue last year when Glaus was putting up good numbers. Was Freese’s snub due to the 40-man roster? I seem to recall it was but my memory is certainly not as good as yours. The bottom line is that I would have brought David up last year too. Again, he earned it. Where is the reward Tony talks about. It apparently only applies to his vets.
Freese’ nums last year were as good as Craig’s this year. Just like Freese last year, Craig is not on the 40-man.
I will share a little secret as to why my predictions are generally close to accurate. The organization acts pretty consistently. When there are other options available, the guys that get called up in September aren’t going to be the first-timers. (Pags is an exception since there is no catcher in the system now with MLB experience.)
To suggest this is a conspiracy or a punitive act or any of that stuff just doesn’t resonate with me because I never expected it.
So it’s a basic organizational policy then. That part makes sense, but at the same time it defeats the purpose of the September callups. Part of the reason is to give teams an opportunity to look at their talent for next year. Now of course that’s a little harder during a pennant race, however, it also gives you a chance to bring up the top talent and see if they can contribute.
Personally I feel that there are far more reasons to bring more players up then not. How do you feel on the subject Brian? I think it’s a great tool provided by MLB that the Cards waste.
The trick to great hitting AX is doing it all. Albert is not doing it all right now. He settles into hitting postures that have a higher potential for manifesting certain types of hits. He went through a hands pushed back weight back stage awhile back and hit a bundle of HR’s. He has gravitated back to his flying open stance. Its good only for contact and direction. He hit a couple of balls in Houston that if you watched the ball flight, he was pretty much right on. They didn’t go anywhere because he hit them right on the end of the bat. Not pop ups, not topspin line drives. Just on the end because his shoulder flew open and his hips were right behind. He simple couldn’t reach them and they were center cut. Most Cardinal hitters have a unique style. I was fascinated to study Albert when I first arrived. I have and acute visual memory and quickly learned to recognize his hitting strategies by watching his adjustments. Considering the availability of slow mo film, I trust he has something in mind. It may well be his elbow injury and he is hitting by pulling with his left side. Or as I stated above, he is caught in the middle. This next series will tell you what he is about. All games count from now on.
Concerning “knowledgable fans” wanting a look at what’s “over the horizon” as grounds for callups, I disagree.
Its easy for such fans to get a look at the future, by watching Memphis or spring training games. The Cards have a good grasp of what their minor leaguers can do, by watching them for years. The team does not need to promote a few more guys in September just to learn what they can do.
TLR said he is looking forward to seeing Pete Parise, the Memphis closer. But he wants to see Parise during spring training. TLR must not want another rookie clogging the Clubhouse at this time of year, when he wants to focus the team on the playoffs. TLR is all business, not into catering to fans, however knowledgable.
A case could be made for promoting Jaime Garcia. He was up briefly in 2008, knows his way around the Clubhouse. But the Cards must not want to overwork hm. And TLR will always remember the troubles that resulted from starting Ankiel in a playoff game in 2000, so Garcia can try out in spring training with all the other hopefuls.
There is a case to be made about promoting Craig. But its a weak case. Craig is not a good defender. Unless Holliday gets hurt, there is no position. Ankiel can play more positions and swings left and has been fine as a pinch-hitter. K Greene had an important pinch home run a month back, earning a salute from Pujols. Even if Ankiel and K Greene do not return next year, now is now. The rookie Craig does not offer obvious advantages over them. A rookie needs to give the team something it now lacks. Freese does this, Craig does not.
The Cards are going to respect ML players and go into the playoffs with the people who have contributed during this season and earned the right to be there.
In spring, some fans get hyper-excited about arbitration and whether the Cards will beat Boras as regards a salary for Ankiel. It ended up a snore. The two sides settled. The Cards want to pay Ankiel a fair salary, Boras wants a fair salary for his man, there was an agreement. Now some of the same fans are down on Ankiel, given his tough season. But the Cards do not go up and down these highly emotional peaks and valleys. They wanted to pay Ankiel a fair salary in spring and want him on the playoff roster in October. Its valuable for the team to have a reputation for treating its the ML players with respect, because every off-season free agents get to choose their next employer and the team wants to have a good reputation to help recruit veteran free agents in future. No Mickey Mouse stunts like benching Khalil or Rick for the playoffs and giving their roster slots to a minor leaguer. This would disrespect the players union and is not how the Cards want to conduct themselves.
I would not call it a policy, Axcion, more of a recent practice.
Go back and read this (free) article I wrote and posted at Scout.com on August 8. I laid out the previous two years of call-ups. I could have done more years, but the point was adequately made, in my opinion.
The Cards added eight players last season and nine the year before. That is a lot of extra bodies milling around – roughly a 1/3 increase in roster size. This year, with fewer than a dozen games remaining, they added just six – the last four plus the two that stayed around (Boggs and Hawks) when Lohse and Welle were activated.
Two key points:
1) Every single one of the 17 players called up in 2007 and 2008 had prior MLB experience.
2) Enough players were previously called up during the season and sent back down that can be re-added in September, such that there is no need to add first-timers for the final month.
Jumbo, good points, but you started off by disagreeing with a proposition which had not been made. Knowlegable fans wanting a look over the horizon was not put forward as grounds for callups. The issue was whether fans would be disapointed to see callups getting playing time instead of big stars. I said that knowlegable fans would not be disapointed because they would appreciate a look. Brian’s counter was to agree as to ‘knowlegable’ fans, but that most people in the stands would rather see the stars. I agree that fans wanting a look would not be grounds for callups.
To clarify my post. Brian agreed that some fans would rather see the new guys but most would rather see the stars, no implication that the latter are not ‘knowlegable’.
My impression is a bunch of fans are disappointed for Craig or Garcia not to be called up. They may hope these guys can strengthen the post-season roster in some way and are fed up with Ankiel, Greene, Thurston or Lohse. Yet the Cards are generally not going to operate this way, rather will go with the guys they already have. Gall in 05 was an unusual exception, probably owing to injuries that required the Cards dip down to add a AAA veteran. Next year will, Craig, Garcia, Parise and others will get chances.
jumbo, I agree.
Since you keep bringing him up, I just want to make one more clarification about Gall in 2005 to ensure there is no confusion. Gall was already on the 40-man roster and had earlier been called up during the season (when Larry Walker went onto the DL). So while he was back in September and ultimately made the playoff roster, it was not his MLB introduction.
Ok. Please allow me to make an additional clarification. Mo has some discretionary flexibility. If Mo thought there were compelling reasons to do so, he could find a way to add Craig to the 40 man roster, whereas Garcia is on the 40 man roster, but he too was not promoted. 40 man roster status is an administrative factor, but it may not be determining. If Gall was up earlier in 05, I stand edified by this additional information.
Let us say Freese had not already been on the 40 man, we would probably have added him and brought him up after the Memphis season, because with the bum shoulder of Troy Glaus, this injury might give Freese a possibility for post-season play. I imagine the Cards weight a variety of factors in making September callup decisions. Unusual situations may produce unusual outcomes, even if black swans are uncommon.
Westie, I wouldn’t be overly supprised to hear an admission in the post-season of Albert hurting his elbow during the All-star festivities. He just hasn’t been right since then and I’ll have to trust your acute sensors that you have isolated the problems. You’re right though, he’s missing mistake pitches that normally end up banging off the space station. That looming surgery scares the crap out of everyone, doesn’t it?
As for only a weak case being made to bring up Allen Craig, well I think he himself made a very strong case for a promotion with his outstanding performances the last couple years. True, Freese did the same last year, but that was a roster space issue. We could have made room this year if we wanted to. Again my argument is that he earned it and the experience just sitting on the bench would have been great for him. The anti-Craig feelings are that TLR might trip over him in the dugout because there are too many bodies down there. Plus, we don’t need him because he doesn’t have a defensive position. Well yes he does, he has three of them: 1b, 3b and OF. Perfect for a Larussa team. His strength, we hope, is his hitting and wouldn’t it be nice to spell Albert a few times before the playoffs to give him a break and more importantly lessen the risk of injury.
The irony is that we aggressively promote throughout the minor league system until you’re ready for ‘the show’ and then it’s we don’t care if your one of the best players in our system, you have to wait until next year.
Of course the team knows what the players can do at the minor league level, but that doesn’t always translate into the majors, so the bottom line is that you just don’t know until they prove they belong. You need look no further than Joe Thurston.
I just can’t believe the negativity toward Craig from some. You should be behind him and cheering for his success, not coming up with lame excuses why he shouldn’t be promoted. In all likelihood he’ll be our Minor League Player of the Year; great let’s reward him for it, not send him home with no real explanation as to why. At least in Garcia’s case, TLR was upfront about it weeks ago saying they didn’t want to push him too hard on his comeback. That makes prudent sense. Performance isn’t an issue; cost isn’t an issue; interrupting the team chemistry isn’t an issue; even space on the bench isn’t an issue. (Although, if Tony stubs his toe on one of the callups and needs off season surgery, I’m really going to have egg on my face.)
Ax, check the box scores and tell me how many at bats and innings pitched Freese, T Greene, Pags and Kinney have so far. (The answer is zero.) With Craig among them, the answer would undoubtedly be the same. (None.) With seven games remaining, maybe we will see a few cameo appearances, but that is it.
As an aside, it was kind of odd to see the four call-ups on the field and in the clubhouse during the clinching celebration last night. I have to wonder if one reason Troy Glaus isn’t on this trip is because he didn’t earn the right to be there.
If there is any substance to it, I am very curious to hear more about the “roster space issue” last year to which you refer. I question its validity. As Jumbo pointed out earlier, there are ways to get guys onto the 40-man if they are wanted. The 40-man could be a factor, but is not a show-stopper. The bigger issue is lack of MLB experience, IMHO.
I for one, am not down on Craig in any way and have gone out of my way to say that multiple times. However, he is not at the top of the prospect pecking order. For at least six weeks, I have been very clear in my explanations as to why I thought he would not be coming up. I understand you do not accept that but the deed is done. Over with. Time to move on.
Craig must be inadequate at 3B. The Cards are not going to play him there at the ML level, except on an emergency basis. TLR did not use Craig at 3B at all during spring training 2009, even though many others got auditions at third.
News Flash: La Russa admits fans helped drive mid-season acquisitions
“…And I think it’s a great story that we got Matt and Mark and these other guys because the fans helped make it happen. Our attendance was higher than expected and Bill responded by adding payroll. And ‘Mo’ went out and got us what we needed. Obviously we appreciate it.”
link to Post-Dispatch
New York Times agrees on fan impact
“With each unexpected ticket generally bringing about $25 in revenue, Cardinals fans had staked the front office with millions to buy reinforcements. DeRosa cost about $3 million for his three months; Holliday, close to $4 million for two. Smoltz and Lugo were inexpensive but integral.”
link
I’ve often thought of the contribution I’m making buying those $8.75 beers. The aknowledgement is sweet. I’m patting myself on the back.
I was ready for anything today……….anything…………..but K Greene in that huge center field. Forget about the game……….. what happens to the player/person if this goes south ? Risky is this business.
1. Lugo, 2B
2. Ryan, SS
3. Pujols, 1B
4. Ludwick, LF
5. DeRosa, RF
6. Freese, 3B
7. LaRue, C
8. T. Greene, CF
9. Lohse, P
Apparent mistake on the box score, its T. Greene in center. It seemed crazy.
TLR says money of the fans was helpful. It was not complaints from fans and loudmouths with the P-Dispatch or on talk radio, just money from fans. This sounds like a nice way to thank the fans for their donations this year, so as to ask for some more of their precious money next year. Good marketing by Tony.
In 2006, the Cards added OF Preston Wilson released by the Astros.
In 2007, we picked up Todd Wellemeyer released by the hapless Royals. Star reliever Troy Percival unretired and signed with the Cards as a free agent.
In 2008, we added Felipe Lopez after dumped by the hapless Nationals.
In 2009, we have added John Smoltz and Julio Lugo, compliments of the Red Sox. Smoltz was a free agent and could have gone to any of 29 teams.
Year after year, we seem to be able to pick up a little extra help for a low price late in the season. It must be because TLR has a reputation as a good manager able to help veterans lift their games.
If you get some chances to watch Albert’s double in the 3rd. Notice what happened. Albert had decided to go away from the start. All his weight was on his left leg, some much so that it was bowed outward. He was determined to stay closed at all costs, even forgoing his famous ankle roll.
He knows exactly what is going on. He is up with the bases loaded as I’m writing. Same strategy. Weight already forward. Common Albert. 3/1……….. 3/2 he’s battling. A chance to walk in a run and he insecurely offers twice…..oh well. Why is Luddy looking to turn………..???????????? 3/1 if he swings out of the Zone I will sssssssss it…… he didn’t good take…….. hell……… nice slow mo’s by Colorado tv. Ludwick had 5 opportunities to take him away……..and was still looking to turn on 3/2. Amazing ego…or stupidity.
Brian, I find your stance puzzling, other than it’s wrought with alterior motive. If the best you can come up with is he lacks experience I think you should re-evaluate your choice of sides. At least I’m got BB in my camp so we’re even. With all due respect I still haven’t heard a legitimate reason for the non-callup.
Of course those guys we’re going to play while we were chasing the pennant, but now that we have you saw two of them starting the ‘hangover’ game. Funny thing too, we could have used another outfielder so we didn’t have to play a shortstop (with no experience) in center.
I’ve never seen you as being as inflexible in your opinions before. Interesting! It’s like I’m talking to my wife or maybe you’ve been hanging around Larussa a little too long. No offense! ((:
As for the roster thing, I went back to the link you provided and saw that last year we already had to make 3 deletions from the 40-man just to add 3 other players. That does already seem to be going above and beyond to pump up the roster. I was accepting that as your reasoning for Freese not being called up.
And you’re right, we’ve flogged this equine to eternity.