Let me say right up front that I have the utmost respect for Dave Duncan as a coach and a person.
The long-time St. Louis Cardinals pitching coach has been all over the news this summer, not only for the right reason – due to the considerable successes of his 2009 mound charges – but also because of controversy over his son, former Cardinals outfielder Chris Duncan.
As trenches are dug deeper and deeper, the St. Louis future of Dave Duncan seems to be getting cloudier, perhaps to the point the coach will or has already decided not to return for 2010.
I could not help but think about another prominent Cardinals story from recent years in which off-field disputes became bigger than the team, leading to an important cog in the club’s machine to leave town.
The story of the trade of Scott Rolen almost two years ago resurfaced earlier in the month when the third baseman returned to St. Louis, wearing the uniform of the Cincinnati Reds. Rolen went out of his way to visit Tony La Russa in the manager’s office on August 10th in an attempt to clear the air between the two.
Duncan’s circumstances are very different in that his dissatisfaction seems to have stemmed from his son’s treatment by segments of the fans and media and the club’s front office while Rolen had conflicts with his manager and the team’s medical staff.
I don’t know Duncan well, but I do know that he is a straight-shooter and a very principled man. That may not have served him well when his comments critical of the Chris Duncan trade itself, the club’s front office and the players in their farm system received widespread attention and put the coach in an unfavorable light.
Just a few days earlier, Duncan’s longtime friend and boss La Russa had lashed out at those critical of Chris Duncan, saying the negative treatment of the slumping slugger made him “want to vomit”.
Earlier this month, Duncan instituted a blackout policy against the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, apparently over articles written about the younger Duncan. In reference to Chris, Dave also noted the “talk-show guys will have to find a new whipping boy.”
Based on Chris Duncan’s struggles and subsequent release after one month with Boston’s Triple-A club in Pawtucket, it is clear he is not right. Whether a winter of rest and recovery will fix what ails him remains to be seen, but only the coldest of the cold would not wish a return to past success for Chris.
Looking at the Chris Duncan trade from a baseball perspective, most unbiased observers can see its merit from the Cardinals side. Not Dave Duncan, however.
It may be far more difficult, if not impossible for Dave Duncan’s situation to be repaired. The depth of his feelings are illustrated in his comments at the time of the trade. Those remarks may have been amplified by surprise since he reportedly was not informed of the impending trade other than by La Russa. Still, they seemed the words of a disappointed father, rather than coming from the professional coach that he is.
“The way I look at it is he was traded for a player who had very little (leverage) … he (Julio Lugo) was designated for assignment,” Duncan said. “It’s highly unusual for a major-league roster player to be traded for somebody like that. So somebody wanted to get him out of the organization, and they’ve accomplished what they wanted to accomplish.
“Either that or we don’t have anybody in the minor leagues that they wanted for (Lugo). One or the other.”
Duncan was back in the headlines when he asked for a personal day off this past week but declined to explain why. Frankly, it is none of our collective business, but it just added fuel to the “Duncan is leaving” fire.
The Post-Dispatch’s Cardinals beat writer Joe Strauss has his finger on the pulse of the club as much or more than any non-team employee. Strauss states flatly that “Many close to Duncan do not expect him to return (in 2010).”
It would be a shame if that happens, just as it was when Rolen and La Russa decided they could no longer work together.
Yet, Dave Duncan is just one month from his 64th birthday, a time when many Americans are considering retirement. He has been in a professional uniform for over 45 years, with the last 30 years as a major league pitching coach, the longest such stint in MLB history.
Strauss reports that Duncan’s contract option for 2010 is a joint one. In other words, for him to return, both the coach and the front office would have to agree.
If Duncan can’t satisfactorily salve that which is causing his itch, whether it was due to the fans of St. Louis, the media, his own bosses or all of them collectively, then as difficult as it would be for everyone, perhaps he should leave after the season. Having to remain in a job that you no longer enjoy is no place to be.
If that is what transpires, we can only hope that the passing of time will not lead to the principals to look back with regret over how they handed themselves in the heat of the moment.
As Rolen himself observed earlier this month:
“They say time heals all wounds, but at the same time things happen and you don’t rewrite those things. You either accept the way it went down and you accept the changes that were made for the better. Or you harbor negative feelings and have a tough time putting your head down at night.”
After all Dave Duncan has done for the Cardinals, he deserves to be able to put his head down at night. Here’s hoping he can and will continue to be able to do so.
Nice article Brian but the title doesn’t draw in the reader. Try something like ‘Fizzled Former Farm-hand Fuels Father’s Foible’.
I can understand Dave Duncan’s anger at the small but vocal group of the fanbase that treated his son like some sort of virus.
While I’ve never listened to the sportstalk shows in St. Louis, it has been my experience that the talk show clowns that pander for an audience bring out the worst of the jerks on the fringe.
Chris Duncan put up spectacular numbers in his 162 games during 2006 and the first half of 2007. His defense was below average, but too many small-minded people saw only the problems he had during the 2006 World Series and pounced on that like it was the Holy Grail and a license to dog him mercilessly. The cries of nepotism were displays of ignorance that “the best fans in baseball” should be ashamed of.
We’ve had 14 great seasons with Duncan here and, should he leave, I wish him nothing but the best.
DD17, I have to disagree with you about the nepotism thing and your overall assessment of CD. He did contribute offensively in some key spots, while also failing to contribute in other key spots through inability to put the ball in play, or get the sac fly or hit behind the runner etc. He was not a major league (or minor league) outfielder. It is precisely because the fans in St. Louis are the best, know what they are seeing on the field and are used to a quality product, that they reacted negatively to having an absurdly mis-cast , and later un-fit player trotted out there because his name was Duncan. None of that was Chris’s fault, he should have been a DH/1B and most likely would now be making a living doing just that if his name wasn’t Duncan. Its a shame, but the fault doesn’t lie with the fans nor is it they who should be ashamed.
Nice article by Brian.
A quotation about putting your head down at night reflects well on the character of Scott Rolen. Rolen seems a person of stature.
Like Brian, I also think very highly of Dave Duncan, both as a pitching coach and as a straight-shooter.
Its too bad, but there are a lot of young fans who post on the Internet who are scornful of the pitch to contact, keep the ball down philosophy. This owes to a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about the art of pitching. It seemed to reach a zenith with the sorry fiasco of Anthony Reyes, over-hyped and believed to be an 89 mph power pitcher messiah who was derailed by Daddy Dunc. The growth of the Internet has seemingly promoted segmentation within the general public as like-minded people can congregate into communities and reinforce each other’s incorrect thoughts (a new par for the course within baseball and society more generally).
I posted some ways of looking at this in an earlier thread. In this, I argued that its hard to see what the Cards have done that warrant anger from Dave. Ironically, Chris’ injury owed to how he was taught to play the game. He put himself at risk and played outside the bounds of his individual safe operating envelope by making diving catches and for this he ended up with whiplash and need for insertion of a metallic disk in his neck. I consider it a sad situation, but Chris was in essence a disciple of his father and TLR, so they seem responsible for how his injury was incurred and how it was subsequently managed. This is ironic, in a bitter, unamusing way.
Brian’s article teaches me an interesting point about how Duncan may regard the trade of Chris to Boston to be disrespectful and maybe underhanded. I can kind of see Dave’s point, even if I do not agree with it.
The Cards could have sent Chris to AAA Memphis to work on re-establishing himself. Instead, they chose to move Chris to another organization. This was probably deliberate and had rationales, such as the Cards having a lot of talent at AAA and not wanting to further crowd the Memphis roster. And Boston was looking for left swinging 1Bmen, also acquiring Andy LaRoche about that time. And because differing views about Chris must have split the organization, behind the scenes. Mo (like myself) could not take Chris playing LF anymore. Unpleasantly hard personnnel decisions have to get made, because of the competitiveness of the game. Mo traded Wallace, Mortensen, Peterson, Perez, and Todd this year. These are talented athletes and it has to be hard to give up so much talent, after you scout and develop such guys. Teams get faced with tough choices and fans will criticize these in either the short run or later in the long run. Being GM is no easy job.
More to follow…
If Dave Duncan can’t handle himself professionally about this matter, I have no problem watching him walk out the door.
The depth of negative feelings directed by blingboy towards Chris Duncan is akin to mine with regard to Wellemeyer and Motte. On August 21st, I wrote the following in the blog entry; “Looking into John Smoltz, circa 2009″:
Brian, how can anyone forget Chris’ sensational Rookie season? While there is certainly no place for him on any major league roster at present, we’ve certainly got room and patience for him to mend at Memphis (even if it takes a couple of years). His potential value is even more meaningful if we are not able to sign Matt and Rick during the off-season. If steroids are suspected, as the reason for Chris’ 2007 success, one must bear in mind that “performance enhancers” only add power, but do nothing for hand-eye coordination. His Cardinal teammates liked him and thought that he had potential. Nepotism; schmepotism! He did not rise through the ranks because his father is our first class Pitching Coach: He is a member of the Cardinal nation and certainly deserves a minor league contract.
While blingboy indicates that Chris could never be an Outfielder and addressed his batting potential with the idea that he should have been cast in the role of “DH/1B”, I remain under the impression that a couple of years at Memphis would be the remedy for the deficiencies. If I were to cast shame upon the “vocal group of the fanbase” who crucified Chris, I would feel like a hypocrite because of the criticism that I continue to direct towards Wellemeyer and Motte. The shame is the sticky wicket that the situation has created for Dave Duncan and that, as a consequence to his heartbreak and feelings of betrayal, we shall be losing the best Pitching Coach in the business.
Continuing my earlier post……
Dave D makes the point that it is unusual to trade a ML roster player for a DFA’d guy like Lugo. This may be true, but its not really meaningful, for the sad reason that Chris is no longer ML roster worthy, as independantly decided by Boston, who released Chris.
In some respects, the Cards like to value family connections. Nearly every year, they sign the son of a scout or former player. This has nice aspects, but the Chris Duncan case illustrates a potential downside. Your friends can get disoriented and mad if you move the son, via release or trade.
In late May 2008, Mo sent Chris to Memphis, and this seemed to make TLR mad (presumably on behalf of Dave). Chris was reported to seem ill-humored in a Memphis uniform. He did not hit much at Memphis, but was recalled a couple of weeks later, owing to an injury to someone else.
In 2009, Chris hit well at the on-set of the season, during April. This provided a reasonable reason for hope that he was restored to health and would be a key contributor again. Unfortunately, his hitting became poor thereafter.
It is telling that when the Cards traded Chris, he was first demoted to Memphis, then traded a day later. This demotion seems likely to have been to take TLR out of the decision-making process. So Mo did not level with TLR or Dave and tell them what was going to happen. They were cut out of the situation via Chris’ demotion and then Chris was traded from the Memphis roster to Boston. This may have alienated Dave and could be the source of unhappiness with Mo and DeWitt.
However, in the big picture, this does not make a lot of sense. The big picture bottom line is that the Cards could not afford to keep giving Chris playing time. They needed more production out of his roster slot. Chris had to go. The only question was where, Memphis or to another organization. Memphis was crowded and the Cards are a business. Family is a nice factor, but its an extra factor and every year, teams have to release or trade a lot of guys who they may like and respect as people. Its just the nature of a toughly competitive business, as Dave and Tony well know.
I can understand Dave not liking fans booing or complaining about Chris. This could alienate him and persuade Dave to leave too. That would only be human. Dave could easily be fed up with Cards fans. Many fans had dopey expectations about Anthony Reyes and many have dopey ideas about how to pitch. A lot of fans seems to think they could be ML pitching or hitting coaches, and they are delusional. Dave Duncan has to have made a lot of money during his long career. If he chooses to retire or move elsewhere, this would be understandable, because for Dave, many Cards fans have shown they are NOT the best in baseball. And there are a lot of reporters who cultivate fan anger.
The Orioles once had a situation where Cal Ripken was the star SS, his brother Billy may have been at 2B, and their Dad was the manager. And the Orioles owner, being a rich dope trial attorney, treated Cal Ripken Senior poorly, firing him very quickly. It was disrespectful, since changing the manager rarely changes team performance, and Cal Senior was a great teacher of the game, whose two sons were in the lineup. Cal junior must have been mad, but he played through it and had a great career. One reason Cal junior is so respected is he overcame dopey nonsense like his father being rudely treated.
This reminds me of the Dave Duncan situation. There are a lot of Cards fans who do not understand pitching and disrespect Dave. He gets paid in part to ignore them and just focus on pitching advice. Dave also has to come to terms with Chris’ injury and current inability to hit well enough to remain at a ML level. If Dave is uncomfortable about this, he may choose to go elsewhere. If so, the Cards should wish him well, because he has been a terrific credit to the game and a terrific contributor to the Cardinals.
Chris’s abnormal playing depth at Wrigley field was planned due to the extreme danger of a collision with an unpadded wall. It was a tactical travesty. Many moves of this nature were being justified by Tony/Dave concerning Chris’s usage. When they decided they could get Holiday with the Lugo money, they resolved all conflict by nullifying Tony’s coaching prerogative that would involve Colby and Luddy. Boston will never take a player from us. They will take back the 1.5 of 2 million dollars per the agreement after the season. It was about money and it had to be done in a single day, which it was.
blingboy,
I don’t know what metrics you used to measure CD’s performance in 2006 and the first half of 2007 but his slash lines look to be a near mirror image of the Silver Slugger season Ryan Ludwick enjoyed last year.
PL PA SLASH NUMBERS BB K R RBI
CD 585 .291/.366/.570 64 137 100 90
RL 617 .299/.375/.591 62 146 104 113
Apologies for any formatting problems
As for his defense, please provide me with the dates of any games during that time that CD’s defense cost the team a win. I await your response with bated breath because I rarely miss a game and don’t recall his defense being “absurdly miscast.” Oh, and give me a break about hitting behind runners with those power numbers. This is not the sixties.
CD had 32 less plate appearances, scored four less runs and drove in 23 less. He hit second most of the time.
Joe Strauss has a good article today on the Dave & Chris situation. Dave is mad at the training staff for “not protecting” Chris. He thinks Chris did not look after himself and the training staff did not either.
This situation is complicated. There is a lot of pressure within the game to play with and through minor injuries. Chris had an injury that he tought was minor, a crick in his neck, that was actually a crack in his neck. So he played with it. He probably told the training staff that his problem was minor, thinking it was minor, but it turned out not to be minor, after all, Chris being no doctor. And in 2005, Larry Walker played with terrible neck pain for which he took cortisone shots. Chris wanted to play the game right, like a star like Walker. By doing so, he jeporardized his health and career and things did not work out for the best.
Strauss also resports Chris had an appointment with his neuro-surgeon scheduled for just after the trade to Boston and did not make this appointment. This would be consistent with Chris not paying enough attention to his own health. Chris is not without some responsibililty, wthin this complicated unhappy situation.
It seems like there may be some resemblances to the Rolen and Brian Jordan unhappinesses of the past. Scott was unhappy with his medical care, with advice that he play through pain, and TLR goading Rolen to play better, despite his best efforts.
Strauss also reports Duncan feels cut out of how the organization is developing minor league pitchers, and that Cards minor leaguers are being taught some things that Dave does not agree with. That issue seems potentially fixable, if it gets talked through. But Chris’ health and career, that may be a tougher problem.
The cause of the current unhappiness took place during 2008. The outcome and ramifications are becoming evident in 2009.
By August 2008, it was apparent Dave Duncan was unhappy with the medical situation with Chris. After the metal disk insertion, Dave put his foot down and squashed rumors about Chris trying to return to play in late 2008. Now that it has been established that Chris is unable to rebound fully to his past peak abilities, such that he is presently unemployed within baseball, Dave remains annoyed and not unsurprisingly so. Maybe Chris or the players union could file a legal complaint or grievance about how the Cards managed Chris’ workplace injury. If so, Dave could want to end his work relationship with the Cards so it does not get in the way.
Some of the aspects to this story seem trivial: the trade for Lugo; talk radio and fan unhappiness this year over Chris; and the training of minor league pitchers.
The core issue is Chris’ injury, including why it happenned and how it was diagnosed and treated. This is probably not a crystal clear situation, because Chris hurt himself playing the game the right way in the view of TLR and then Chris tried to pay through pain as he had seen role models like Larry Walker do. Maybe Chris did not do enough to tell the trainers about his symptoms. Blame may shared among many. And maybe the medical/health procedures of the Cardinals could use a thorough and careful independant review, in case they can be improved in any way, for the future and other players.
DD57, If you will re-read my post you will see that my negative feelings are not directed toward Chris Duncan but at those responsible for mis-using him, forcing a square peg into a round hole so he could play in St. Louis, rather than elsewhere where he could have been more suitably employed.
Also, looking back at 06, first half of 07, I was unfairly discounting CD’s offensive contribution during that period, as DD17′s research illustrates.
Make that CFS57, not DD57 in #12 above, sorry.
blingboy, your views are premised on an assumption that Chris was readily tradeable to another town. The reality is much more complicated.
Duncan is a 1Bman. He rose in the system that way. In 2006, the Cards began playing him as a corner OF at Memphis, so he could help them out, given Albert was at 1B. For a tall, ungainly guy, Chris runs fairly well, so he could move to corner OF better than, for instance, Mark Hamilton. In 2006, we had a gaping hole in LF, with Bigbie and John Rodriguez not doing much. In about June/July, Duncan got the call and hammered 22 dingers the rest of the season. He was a butcher in the OF, because he had not gotten much training there. TLR said he would get tutoring the next spring, as indeed he did, maybe from Larry Walker, IIRC. In first half 2007, Duncan was much improved defensively, but had also added the dramatic full extension belly flop dives. These enabled him to snag more flies, but put him at physical risk of injury. TLR bragged that Chris played the game the right way. (In contrast, years before, TLR claimed J D Drew lacked passion for the game, because he asked out of the lineup for short spells owing to little injuries. In effect, Chris was the anti-JD, a guy who would do anything for the team and not ask for time off owing to injury.)
By the back half of 2007, Chris was hurt, his play nose-dived, and he was not really tradeable. The Cards thought he would be fixed by the stomach muscle repair operation and did not know about the additional neck disk problem. Chris may not have complained enough about the neck for the team doctors and trainers to order up enough xrays or NMRs to find the problem. In 2008, Chris could not hit and Mo sent him to Memphis. TLR took to praising Chris for enduring and playing through pain. This did not make a lot of sense. Chris should have been DLd and diagnosed. Finally things hurt so much, even Chris wanted to be looked at by a doctor. A bulge to a neck disk was found. Then, someone did not DL Kid Duncan, but he kept playing until the disk ruptured a couple of weeks later. After that, he needed the metal disk insertion. After the time Duncan became injured in late July 07, he was not really tradeable under normal circumstances.
In July 2009, Mo found a team desparate enough to unload Lugo and eat his full contract, and equally desparate as to roll the dice on Duncan. So yes Duncan ultimately proved to be tradeable, though for a guy who Boston fans had decided to hate. Duncan was kind of throw-in gift to the Red Sox, since they needed to run Lugo out of town. The trade helped the Cards get Lugo, so it was in their self interest. It helped Lugo. It did not help Kid Duncan, because he still has residual muscle or nerve weakness from his neck injury.
I would say the Cards did normal and reasonable things with Chris Duncan, until 1) he got trained to attempt dangerous catches not well suited to his physique; and 2) in diagnosis of his injuries after he got hurt in a belly flop catch. He was classified as playable, which made Chris and Tony happy, but Dave is in retrospect not happy about his son playing with a bulging neck disk. After Chris was injured in July 2007, he could not be traded to somewhere “he could have been been more suitably employed.” And before his injury, he was needed here. Overall, it an unfortunate situation.
Leo Mazzone was the pitching coach for the Atlanta Braves, working with manager Bobby Cox for many years. However, even long-term relationships can end. After 2005, or thereabouts, Mazzone decided to move to become pitching coach of the Orioles, because a boyhood chum of his was made manager of the Os. Mazzone then got bounced out of Baltimore after Sam Perlozzo did not last long as manager. Mazzone’s departure from Atlanta after many years of success suggests Dave Duncan too could decide to get a job elsewhere. Maybe Walt, Dusty, and Scott could find a role for Dunc, over in Cinci.
Excellent summary of a tangled web Jumbo. I watched CD many times from my perch high in left field where I had a birds eye view. The fans never had any issue with Chris’s enthusiasm, work ethic or character. If he recovers and shows back up at Busch playing 1st or DH for somebody he’ll get a standing O. He grew up at Busch II, with his dad and Tony and was probably destined from an early age to be a Card if at all possible. A lack of objectivity may be at the heart of every aspect of this whole thing. Ironically, if Chris had a little J.D. in him he might still be playing, albeit not for the Cards.
Of note, I haven’t seen anyone leaping to sign Chris Duncan right now. LaRussa and Dave Duncan can say what they will, but there are a lot of baseball organizations out there and none currently seem interested in adding his bat for September play.
Duncan was optioned to Memphis as a condition of the trade – nothing to do with TLR. The fact that Duncan wasn’t put on Boston’s major league roster and then released suggests that Lugo wasn’t really traded as a DFA for a major league player (only a minor league level player on a major league roster).
The PD article makes daddy Dunc look really petty and stupid (and i don’t think it is biasly written).
Why id TLR defending C.Duncan as courageous for not disclosing his injuries while Rolen was villified.
I was not a big fan of the nepotism theory until the trade and its aftermath. I now definitely feel it was clouding people’s views and judgments.
The real point of interest here has nothing to do with Chris. Tony and Dave are sophisticated guys. They will continue to coach together. It is likely that this dialog is a bit contrived and represents a struggle going on between Management and Coaches. It has always been there. Neither Mo or Dave had to say much about this situation period. It could be Tony/Dave reminding the league that they are free agents. Who knows. Just a point Jumbo, when was Chris’s appointment made with the surgeon? Doesn’t look like there was much time for that the way things went down. Dave anticipating trouble, maybe trying to get Chris on the 60 day instead of demoted? Trying to maintain control. A publicly announced appointment with a surgeon would have also killed what little positives Chris might have had in a trade. Dave maintaining control? These guys were trying to keep Chris under their control as they had for years. Mo broke it up, as an after thought really, out with the garbage. Boston has made another move this week concerning a 1st baseman. Chris didn’t look good enough to even trade or set aside till spring.
bb, your point about a little JD may be ironic, but it may also be true and seems important.
Players have to look after themselves. While fans or old fashioned managers may love a tough guy who challenges walls and takes cortison shots, the same fans will want the guy run out of town on a rail, if he becomes cannot play as well, owing to injury The team or manager can always find a replacement. The interest of a player and a team are sometimes not the same, when it comes to playing through pain. The team may feel an intense, short-term need to win, while the player is often best served to go on the DL to work on restoring his health that he needs to perform at a high level necessary for MLB. Chris idolized his Dad and Uncle Tony, so he was ready to put himself second and sacrifice for the team and the fans. Larry Walker had a messed up neck and took cortisone in 2005 and Larry was a super hero in Chris’ eyes, the ultimate pro, a tough guy.
Some of the times players have been unhappy in recent years involve issues of playing with pain. Brian Jordan was a tough guy, an All-pro in the National Football League, no girly man. Jordan became unhappy with the Cards about a health issue, and left as a free agent to the Braves. Scott Rolen is a great guy and he too became very unhappy both with early medical advice to keep playing through pain and with TLR’s tactlessness. Now even Dave Duncan, the ultimate pro and long-term friend of TLR is very annoyed too, all about this common theme of health.
I have not read any of TLR’s books, but I believe TLR put JD Drew down as a guy who lacked the commitment to pay through some pain. Drew lacked passion. He would take himself out of the lineup. He was not a gamer like Albert and Rolen, who would play through. But this kind of manly determination has not done much good for Chris Duncan.
Its unsurprising that baseball is a macho culture. But in recent years, there seems a bit more sense creeping into the game about dealing with problems, instead of just telling a guy to take two aspirin and get back out there and make us proud. This year Khalil Greene has bravely revealed that he has had problems with coping with the stresses of the game. He punished himself for failures to the point of injuries. Khalil has now been counselled to adopt new coping mechanisms, instead of just released and his career trashed. The Reds gave Votto some time off for counselling this year, too. It used to be that athletes would play after head injuries, but even in football, head injuries are handled a lot more conservatively today. A lot ML teams have had a culture of playing through injuries, no matter what the cost to the player. If Dave Duncan elects to leave after this season, it may be his way of saying that this culture needs to be improved. If Dave quietly accepts the status quo, then he may think that he enables it. He could feel some personal responsibility to send a message by leaving.
Dave Duncan is well respected within baseball. There is a job awaiting him in another city, if he decides to leave StL.
I doubt this is a negotiating ploy for a new contract, as Westie suggests. Dave has made enough money in his long career. He does not need money. Dave is a straight-shooter, he is not going to play games in the media about a contract. He never has before, so why start now?
Dave is unhappy with the medical management of his son’s injury. If Dave were to stay in St Louis next season, this could be seen as condoning what has unfolded with Chris.
Dave may be unhappy with Tony, Dr. Playable. They have been together a long time But friendships can suffer stresses and unravel, its the way of the world, like Mazzone leaving Atlanta. Dave is probably cross at the trainers, doctors, Tony, Mo, and Chris, because none of them took appropriate care of Chris.
When TLR decides whether to return next year, he may need to factor who the next pitching coach will be.
Just because Dave Duncan may leave after this season does not matter for the remainder of this season. Duncan will do his professional best, as he has for many years. He will uphold his contractual responsibilities.
Interesting point made by CariocaCard contrasting the way Tony reacted and interpreted Rolen’s and CD’s actions. Of course, Tony was in on Chris’s decision, whether or not “the organization” was in the dark, whereas Tony was in the dark with Scott.
Off topic, Boggs did a decent job last night.
I have to agree with you CC on the nepotism accusations.. This whole thing seems awkward enough to be a ruse to get the press off the Albert slump story. Its timing is suspicious. I fail to see what Dave could possibly gain by this behavior or remarks save changing the fan and press focus.
Colby is in this one. Albert is trying to rock backward into a neutral balanced position. It is screwing up his timing big time. This is Hal McRae. It will unmake us. Albert’s strength has always been staying back on the read. How this continues, baffles me. Even visiting color commentators are mentioning this.
Westy, from up above left near Big Mac land I can get an excellent look at the batter and pitch location, and can also see into the Cards dugout quite well (with binoculars of course). It looks to me like when Albert’s form doesn’t look normal he hits those high pop-ups. I’m not talking about when he gets fooled or has to protect the plate, but when he has something to swing at. His swing looked normal when he hit the grounder up the middle. When he hits those pop-ups his body language and demeanor in the dugout afterwards seems like he’s frustrated and disgusted, and is different than when he strikes out, as though what just happened especially frustrates him. I get the impression he knows what the problem is but can’t do anything about it sometimes. All those pop-ups is not normal for Albert so something is not right. The gut feeling I get from watching all this time and again is that there is a physical issue he’s working with.
WCBW – so you are implying that Daddy Dunc is just part of a conspiracy within the Cards organization to take the focus off Albert? Pleeeaassse.
As long as we are winning there is no Albert controversy anyway.
To sum up, Dave Duncan is unhappy over mishandling of his son’s injury during 07-08. He may have hoped Chris would bounce back, but now sees the story is unlikely to have a happy ending. Being a consummate professional, Dave will play out his contract and help the Cards go as far as they can this October. Then he will not re-sign. He can retire or get a job with another team. He might land in Cinci.
TLR should sign a new contract. He enjoys managing. The Cards will try hard to sign Holliday to a big deal and Pujols to a bigger one. Given this financial focus, Pineiro, DeRosa, Greene, Glaus, and Ankiel probably move on. Rick could land in Cinci too.
There is no reason to say Duncan is the “consummate professional” as this incident has proven the contrary. If he was so professional we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. That is not to say that I think it will affect his job but consummate professionals don’t air their dirty laundry in public.
The Duncan blame game. Choose all of the following:
- The fans
- The media
- The front office
- The medical staff
- The minor league pitching philosophy
Exclude:
- The player
- Yourself
That would be a wrong reading CC. The press and fans focused on Albert’s slump was just creating problems. These guys are not above running a little distraction to take Albert out of the center ring. It’s also a convenient way to air some of their grievances that I believe I have tried to point out here and on other blogs pre-season. I have contended all along the Tony and Dave would be leaving after this year. The radical change in direction by the Cardinals has opened up some options that one would assume changed things some how. I contended in March that there was an agreement with Dave that Chris would be with the team. I believe Dave setting up an appointment in Huston for Chris shows that he was aware that Chris running out of time. These speculations are in the thread. Dave’s public displays and statements don’t make any sense unless he feels they accomplish something. In my mind the only thing that is really happening is Dave is getting all the attention being the lead story. To me, thats more in character, as it seems to be working. His raise this year puts him up there with most managers. It is highly unlikely that Tony and Dave ever split up. Watch Tony’s lead on this story.
On the lighter side. We don’t want to be the division winner with the worst record. Home field is huge in the first round especially. Giants and Rockie were raking today.
Also Dave’s trip to Huston was obviously in support of Chris finally getting to that Medical evaluation with its mysterious and now private prognosis. Chris is out of baseball. Who pays?
Is it a know fact that DD set up that appointment, or just supposition? Chris is 28 so what would his dad have to do with it.? He’s not a pitcher so what would the pitching coach have to do with it? My 27 year old son and his wife would politely ask me to butt out.
You opened a bottomless can of worms Brian.
I think the exploratory nature of the surgery was beyond Cardinal expertise BB. Its my guess Dave asked for permission from the team to have him checked. A Week to ten days would be a reasonable guess for a busy surgeon. My guess is Dave was getting ready to have Chris shut down for a few months to allow this mess to blow over. Mo ran him over. Thats my guess at whats cooking.
Westy, I think you are exactly right. My point is why was DD calling the shots for a 28 year old man who was not on the pitching staff. Why was Dave asking for permission, why was Dave getting ready to have him shut down, etc etc. This would make it impossible for the organization to deal with the player as it would with a player who did not have a valued senior staff member throwing his weight around. What a nightmare for the boss, especially when things go wrong. Mo got sick of it. If Dave got run over, its because he wouldn’t get out of the way.
I have contended for a long time BB that there was a real divide between Coaches and management.
Things changed when BD had the poop scared out of him by the intensity of the Albert hype at the All Star game. Management is playing fast and loose to attain their goals. I like their moves. Truth be know, Dave had to ask for leave to tend to family business that he thinks should have been team business. He is emotional. Fact remains that both sides are playing the situation as I have stated in thread. Its really a non factor, but both sides are trying to exploit these new revelations.. Dave can’t go any farther. Neither can Mo/BD. I think its cathartic. It will die.
Sorry BB about missing your question. Its call nepotism behind the Steinbrenner line. Coaches prerogatives about the value and talent of a ball player. Chris had this protection the whole time. BD changed things. The real victims were Kennedy, the astronaut and so on.
I agree Mo chose to get rid of the Chris situation by sending him to Boston. Mo sent Chris to Memphis last May. Mo must have had enough of the Chris situation by July 09, because as Dave hints, we could have found someone else to trade for Lugo. Dave realizes the Cards deliberately decided to rid themselves of Chris.
I suspect Dave is trying to figure out what caused the Cards to jettison Chris. Two answers for him are the media and the fans. This explanation may somewhat overlook the poor hitting that inspired the fans and media to get riled up.
As to why Dave was involved in arranging a medical evaluation, that is easy. Like Rolen and Brian Jordan, Dave has developed doubt about medical evaluations by the Cards. He wanted an independant, outside opinion to find out where Chris is at.
While this is overall an unhappy situation, I have liked some of the quotes because they seem sincere. One was Rolen talking about “putting your head down at night.” Another was Dave Duncan realizing that neither his son, nor the training staff, had Chris’s best interest (his health) in mind (back in 2008), when Chris’ neck pain went undiagnosed for too long and led to a ruptured disk. Dave has that right and it is the crux of his pain, as a parent. Dave is honest, so he does not absolve Chris of blame for his part in this fiasco. He also does not absolve the Cards training staff, TLR, and Mo, who collectively considered Chris playable.
I suspect Dave and Tony are headed toward splitsville. It would take a lot to break them up after all these years, but having your son’s health mis-managed would be sufficient grounds. Dave is loyal to his pitchers and will work with them through the rest of his contract. Then he will depart. TLR has prepared the public for this potential outcome in comments quoted by Strauss.
If you were a father, with a son, and both of you worked for the same company. Your son is injured in the line of duty and his injury misdiagnosed and mismanaged. Your son becomes unable to perform his job effectively and the employer fires him.
Given that you can get a job with any of 29 other companies in your industry, would you renew your contract to continue working for your current employer, the one that mishandled your son’s health and then fired him?
I suspect for Dave Duncan the answer is no.
A reasonable summation Jumbo. The problem is that Tony knew the risks and shared them at the expense of the team. Chris’s wall hugging defensive position at Wrigley was a necessity of his usage. A collision could have been fatal and yet he was still there. It is still unproven that Chris was failing because of pain. They are still trying not to stigmatize his career by suggesting that his condition may improve. This is about betrayal and it has nothing to do with Tony. Dave is venting but Tony is consenting. This is about something, as I have suggested.
Here’s my prediction on this subject gents; DD will temporarily retire after this year, and like a good dad, he will dedicate his time to resurrecting Chris’s career. He’ll do it out of love for his son and to prove to all of the detractors that his son can indeed still play the game. He will come back to the majors only when that has happened or if Chris’s injury proves to much for him to continue.
Write it down as dogma…..or dog manure, whichever you choose. I base this prediction on pure fatherly instinct. It’s what I would do and I get the feeling DD will too.
Todays Times…
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/sports/baseball/31duncan.html?_r=1&hpw
Nice link Jumbo, thanks. One aspect of all this that hasn’t been chewed on much is that the Tony and Dave team is actually the remaining 2/3 of a gang of 3 which included Walt. The three of them were together for over 20 years except for Walt’s first year in St. Louis. It seems inescapable that Dave and Tony tried to steamroll the new guy (Mo) regarding Chris. There can only be one boss. The Times piece reminds us of what a huge loss the exit of Dave would be. He’s the Albert of pitching coaches.
Isn’t the injury thing just a ruse? If duncan was truly injured he couldn’t have been legally optioned to Memphis. Even if Mo didn’t know, Duncan and his agent would have quickly filed a grievance. Did Boston also accept and release an injured player? sounds like too many people involved to be a conspiracy.
I’m sure all this surrounds the definition of “playability” after the neck surgery CC. It would all have been in his medical transcript. His failure as a player in my mind was all strike zone and pitch selection, like most Cardinals. Lets not forget that baseball is a lucrative business and up until the Holiday trade, Tony and Dave couldn’t have been taking the front office too seriously. I think they were just milking the front office a bit with the suggestion the Chris was a viable option. What seems apparent is that Mo/BD didn’t seem to care as long as Colby got playing time. That a sobering thought huh..
I think that most lefties are right eye dominant and vise versa, so a left handed batter would have his dominant eye toward the pitcher and vise versa. Chris being a right handed fielder might be left eye dominant. His neck issue may have affected his ability to get his left eye around to track the ball. Maybe altering his stance to face the pitcher a little more would help. (Such a stance would also force him to shorten that monstrous windmill swing) I’m surprised it wasn’t tried.
I’m a firm believer in Bicameralism BB, but I would tend to see it in a little different way. Chris had the second best swing on the team. Dave was in fact trying to help him see and speculate on how pitchers would handle him. It just intensified his real problem which was a serious codependent and confidence problem. Towards the end, his need to display some power to enhance his career possibilities, just made it look that much worse. He is gone now. Dave will stay with Tony in the end, but they will both be coaching elsewhere unless they find a hitting consultant.
Pujols will never enter into his option year. DeWitt would have to be a complete idiot to allow that to happen. That means there will be a bunch of exciting events for all in Cardinal land to enjoy in the meantime.
A few clarifications in response to comments…..
Did Tony and Dave “inescapably” try to steamroll a new GM, Mo. No. This idea can be laid to rest. Mo joined the Cards in 1995 or 1996. He is long familiar with players in the organization. Mo even directed the 1999 draft in which the Cards selected Chris Duncan in the supplemental first round, about 46th in the nation IIRC. Mo was involved in recruitment of Chris from amateur ranks.
Is Chris Duncan’s injury a “ruse”? Chris Duncan had a metallic disk installed in his neck to replace a disk he was born with. So yeah, he was injured in 2007 and aggravated his injury to the point of rupture while deemed playable with a bulging disk.
Compare CD’s situation to a pitcher who undergoes a shoulder surgery. The surgery may have been performed, but few pitchers are quite the same after shoulder surgery. The new disk has relieved Chris of pain and enables him to live a normal life, but its possible that his peak abilities as a hitter are not restored 100 percent. If so, he would not now be suffering from a disabling injury, but he could have dimunition of his baseball prowess owing to his 2007 and 2008 injuries. Dave Duncan may have wanted him evaluated by a neurological specialist, since nerves run through the spinal column. They are protected by the bones that constitute the spine.
Chris’ “failure” does not merely owe to strike zone and pitch selection. The guy got a new disk in his neck, an unprecedented surgery for a baseball player.
Nor did Chris’ struggles owe to the fantasy of codependency and confidence problems. Chris hammered the ball in 2006 and the first half of 2007, until he suffered two serious physical injuries. Nothing mental about his injuries. They were all too real.
I tried to add a comment in this thread a few hours back. Did it go into a holding queue or did it just get lost in tramsmission?
Jumbo, your post has been freed from the spam filter. Every now and then, one of your posts ends up there. I cannot explain why as you don’t use profanity and don’t include more than two links in your posts (two primary offenses).
Unlike regular posts, which I am informed of, suspected spam just sits in the filter until I think of going there to check it. Sorry about that.
Thanks for the liberation. I think it owes to me hitting the submit button either too weakly or too strongly, upon occasion. There must be a confusing signal that is received. The epithets generally stay tucked safely away in my noggin.
The more I think about it, the more I believe our dear Daddy Duncan is headed out of town. He cannot say so clearly at this time, since the season has to run its course. And he has sent mixed signals about the source of his unhappiness, which confuses fans.
I figure Dunc can ignore dopey thoughts posted on message boards. And he could in a sense ignore fan complaints about Chris.
His son suffered an injury. Ok, injuries happen. The root problem is it was mishandled. This may have been unintended. Chris may have been an important party to the fiasco, which Dave acknowledges. But if its true that Dave yelled at the trainers (or Tony or Mo) that nobody was looking after Chris’ health (in 2008), then that seems a tough thing to foregive. Dave Duncan does not have to work for the Cardinals. He can retire or find employment elsewhere. It would have to be hard to continue to take salary from a team that mishandled your son’s injury in 2008 and thereby may have potentially cut-short his ML career. To re-sign would be tatamount to endorsing what happenned with Chris. Dave Duncan is a straight shooter and not wishy washy. He is unhappy and I doubt he is going to rediscover happiness here.
Dave Duncan is not forced to work with TLR or the Cardinals. He has options in life. Hypothetically, if the problem with the mishandingly of Chris had happenned in 1998, then Dave could have left St Louis long ago.
Dave is a fine pitching coach and his staff has had a great year. The present unhappy situation has nothing to do with the job Dave does. DeWitt would probably be happy to give him a significant raise, because he deserves one.
Yet the bitterness has nothing to do with money. More money cannot undo or allow Dave to forget what has happenned with his son. Because Dave has integrity, I would suspect that he will depart, after the season. Best not to make a public statement, which accomplishes nothing. Just walk into the sunset.
I hope everything is good in your neck of the wood Jumbo. I just had a nice swim in a crystal clear mountain river with old growth pine and ceder running up the steep canyon. What a pleasure it is to be here.
Jumbo the more I read and sample everyones perception of the Dave story, the more I keep breaking in to a wry smile. Remember the 3 Stooges, Laurel and Hardy, or the Marx brothers movies. There would be a hallway with about 6 different doors per side. They would have endless chase scenes going in and out of these rooms, discovering and rediscovering their adversaries and their companions and finally them selfs as they finally broke away from the maze to discover the solution to there predicament. If you distance yourself a little from what you hope is true, you will probably notice an ending to this passion play. One thing you’re bound to notice, if you squint a little, is the image of Tony and Dave piloting the three masted Cardinal Flagship off into the playoffs, a small dingy in tow with Mo and the wanna be’s scrambling for elbow room. The tether that binds them is now a line of dialog that finally reveals that Tony and Dave have a different opinion of where they are and from wince they came. Try to notice who is wearing the epaulets and the fancy hats. The more the passengers in the Dingy try to steer and maneuver, the longer the tether will become. Someone was pretty clever getting all of the front office guys to climb into that leaky little boat. Just enjoy the show.
I’m coming into St. Lou to have a peak a Carp and Smoltz. I will let you know if I find any treasure.
Westy, if I may butt in a moment. Thanks for the hilarious visual. As I read about the mountain stream I’m watching an obnoxious asphalt paving crew working 20 feet from my front door and enjoyed the pleasant distraction, thanks for sharing.
Yikes BB. Run for it.
Another homer by Pujols tonight. It beats me how Albert can ever hit a ball, what with Hal messing up his swing and all the severe emotional problems that beset our team. We do not need a hitting coach, we need a resident shrink for all the nuttiness.
That was a better at bat Jumbo. He obviously told Hal to shove it. Watch the replays.
I suspect Albert excels in an atmosphere of co-dependency. Hal is dependant on Albert, Albert is dependant on Hal, while everyone else depends on everyone else.