Early in the week on Scout.com, I wrote about Springfield lefty Joe Williams (pictured), a disciple of Dr. Mike Marshall who was recently signed by the St. Louis Cardinals organization after farm director Jeff Luhnow had Marshall meet with his Extended Spring Training staff. I found it to be an interesting topic to cover despite the long odds Williams still faces in ever reaching the major leagues.
Marshall seems to be a popular subject in the media recently. On Wednesday, The Discovery Channel – Canada ran a seven-minute feature that provides a glimpse of Marshall’s modest Florida facilities and stars Williams in his usual demonstration role. As opposed to the video I ran on Scout which shows Williams throwing various offerings, these clips illustrate a number of the exercises Marshall prescribes.
Marshall is a polarizing figure in organized ball as his methodologies are in conflict with traditional pitching teaching methods. Yet other than the low-risk signing of the 28-year-old Williams, I have seen no indication that the Cardinals are doing anything other than looking into what Marshall has to say.
Even that may seem threatening to some, but I wonder what harm could be caused in being open-minded about new and different ways to teach and learn. Still, in a tradition-laden environment like baseball or journalism for that matter, old ways die hard and new ones are notoriously slow to take root.
This Marshall-Williams situation seems to have resurfaced ongoing problems within the Cardinals organization. In the midst of sharing always-interesting details in his weekly chat on Wednesday, the Post-Dispatch’s Joe Strauss said this in response to a question about Williams:
“Your information is correct and represents an obvious split between player development and the major-league staff. Marshall has been seeking audiences with numerous major-league organizations trying to regain a toe-hold in the industry. A former colleague at the P-D has been working on a tome with Marshall. The Williams signing caught the attention of many in the system and served as a reminder that pitching philosophies are becoming increasingly factionalized. The “classic mechanics” was tested on Adam Ottavino last year with less than positive results. Others in the system believe the concept has value. Minor league pitching instructor Brent Strom also has ideas considered unconventional by many. To the Kool-Aid drinkers, this has little meaning. But to those with eyes wide open, it’s an example of an organization operating on different pages writing different chapters.”
The first and last sentences really make it clear. Strauss, who has as frequent access to the major league staff as anyone not employed by the Cardinals, is clearly pointing out a continuing rift between the Tony La Russa – Dave Duncan staff and the administration of Luhnow.
Later, in response to another question, Strauss came back to the subject, pointing out there are dissenters in other places than just St. Louis.
“Some organizations install a vertical flow chart where major league philosophy is implemented throughout the system. That does not apply with the Cardinals. The defection and firing of a number of instructors since Walt Jocketty’s ouster underscores “new” organizational thinking. The Cardinals retain a number of solid instructors and coaches, especially on the pitching side. However, those instructors are not consulted in crafting philosophy.”
There is no reason to believe that this is an exception to the old line, “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire”. The most relevant question may be to wonder “What will be done about it?”
As many Cardinals fans know, La Russa is in his 14th season managing in St. Louis and he and his coaches are not under contract for 2010 and beyond.
Luhnow has been with the organization for 5 ½ years with his first draft considered to be the Class of 2005. Of that group, five players have made the majors to date, including the top two picks reaching this season, Colby Rasmus and Tyler Greene. The others are Mitchell Boggs, Nick Stavinoha and Jaime Garcia, all first called up in 2008.
2006 has delivered Chris Perez, Shane Robinson and P.J. Walters to the majors so far. No players from 2007 or 2008 have arrived in St. Louis, though Jess Todd from the former year and Brett Wallace from last June may be closest. None are yet impact players, with Rasmus generally considered to have the best chance.
In a related vein, I must admit that I have received several notes from readers and bloggers alike in recent weeks questioning negative language from certain P-D writers that at times borders on condescending when referring to the farm system and those who cover it. For example, during Strauss’ Wednesday chat, he said the following in addition to the quote above:
“Depth is an issue here, despite what you may have heard about the burgeoning farm system from various media outlets and team mouthpieces.”
“It’s dangerous to drink Kool-Aid while reading your Baseball America.”
“There is NO support within the dugout for promoting Wallace any time soon. It probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to give the kid more than 50 at-bats at Memphis before pulling that trigger. To Wallace’s credit, he has no problem insisting his bat is major league-ready. Apparently he’s been reading a number of Cardinal-related Teen Beat-type blogs.”
At first blush, I admit it was disappointing to read such comments from a pro like Strauss. On the other hand, the “JSL (Live)” format allows Strauss to express himself in a more direct, new-school manner than his traditional articles can likely allow – not unlike a blogger blogging.
Perhaps most importantly, I come back to a point I made above about organizational contacts and orientation. Are these Strauss’ personal feelings, is he reporting the kinds of things he is hearing from the major league staff or some indistinguishable blend of the two?
I’ve discussed minor league coverage with Joe as recently as earlier this month, but didn’t come away with a definitive reading. In hindsight, does it really matter?
It is clear that the Post-Dispatch writers do not speak with one voice, which is certainly good. I still felt it necessary to point out to Joe that Baseball America’s Cardinals writer is one of his P-D peers and one of the fluffiest articles I can recall reading about the Cardinals farm system in the last few years recently ran in his own very newspaper.
Again, I want to be clear that this isn’t about Joe Strauss or any other writer personally. Look at their words and consider where they’re coming from. Everyone has an angle and a perspective.
As Strauss noted on Wednesday in response to another question about the 2010 Cardinals:
“Some of what happens will be dependent on who is managing the club.”
Certainly food for thought.
The knuckleballing southpaw Rogers got released. If Williams does not pan out, its off to the Seals and battling Somali pirates. In the overall scheme of things, the Williams signing does not rise to the level of trivial. Its surprising it looms so tall in Joe Strauss’ thinking.
It suggests some people are made uncomfortable by experimentation with unfamiliar ideas.
While I liked Jocketty, in retrospect, I see why he had to go; he had a different, too costly business plan. After reading in the press last year some pathetic grousing from Gene Tenace, I would have loved to have fired him myself. Some traditionalists are too inflexible.
TLR is a marvellous manager, but if unhappy despite a $4MM salary, then he can go elsewhere too. Everyone is replaced someday.
We’ve talked about this often in the last 5 months. Thurston in the outfield today was more than Tony being eccentric. Joe will be with the team the whole year and he may have to be outfield depth instead of just middle infield. If Tony stays, it will be in conjunction with some attempt at placating Albert. It we don’t make the playoffs, the point is moot. Tony will be offered 15 large for three years by someone. That would include raises for his staff. 4 large a yr for Dave Duncan. Leverage for Tony will be about saying nothing. There are variables here that have little to do with Baseball but certainly pertain to Albert and Tony in St Louis. DeWitt lost one of the Cornerstone tenants for his Cardinal Village this month. The excuses don’t wash.
On another front, it was good to see Franklin cover professionally.
Brian,
I was looking at the Memphis roster and noticed how young some of those guys are. I glanced through all the PCL rosters and, unless I’m mistaken Donovan Solano is the youngest position player in the league. Neftali Feliz, the highly touted Rangers prospect is a bit younger.
Anderson, Wallace and Todd might all be among the ten youngest players in the league. At 21-16, the kids seem to be holding their own.
I would be surprised if any of the 30 organizations have everybody on the same page. Scouts vs. stats is an age-old argument that will never go away. Nor will writers looking for a new angle, as in the case of Strauss.
By the way, in Joe’s column in the P-D today, there were two errors that shouldn’t have been made. He had Carp’s start in the 2006 Series wrong and he had Bradley hitting the ball Duncan turned into a DP instead of Fontenot. That’s pretty sloppy work, IMO. He is getting paid to report on the games, right?
1. I am happy to see the Cards looking at alternatives. May turn into something might not. I always thought they should take 4-5 16 year old Latin guys who aren’t getting paid much and haven’t developed firm motions yet and send them to Marshall and see what happens.
2. Is there a certainty that the “rift” needs to be resolved. Logic says that a consistent organizational philosophy would get better results but results don’t always follow logic. maybe it is good that guys get to hear and see various methods and points of views on pitching.
3. Struass owes to his readers to explain how he is forming his opinions. Is he doing it by listening to those in the organizations (aren’t those just team mouth pieces as well?), is it his own analysis, is it scouts from outside our system?
Second attempt at a comment, since the first blipped at my computer or at the CN end.
Strauss trying to base a big disagreement on Joe Williams is pretty lame evidence. If Williams cannot contribute well, he will likely return to the Seals and do battle with Somali pirates. Last year, the Cards rolled the dice on another offbeat southpaw, knuckleballing Joe Rogers, from the Harlingen Texas indy team; Mr. Rogers was soon hurt and ultimately released. A long shot, low cost roll of the dice with an unsurprising outcome. Williams is another low-cost long shot, but there is no reason not to give him an opportunity.
Conventional “inside the fraternity” thinkers may dislike Mike Marshall. He may threaten their hopes that they know everything there is to know about baseball. Luhnow did not grow up in baseball. This gives him freedom to experiment and test ideas. This confuses people who may want to pigeon-hole him into a particular slot and assume he believes in crack-pots.
Accordingly, some have wanted to see Luhnow as a stat head; or as Internet guy (whatever that meant). Jumbo suggests Luhnow is a businessguy (MBA; serial entrepreneur) and change agent, aiming for continuous quality improvement. He aims to re-invent and re-invigorate the business by examining it holistically. What are all the functions within scouting? What are all the functions within development? Can anything be done better (or are we already perfect in every way)? Can we scout Texas amateurs better? Can we add an entry league team to the GCL to accommodate younger players? Can we scout Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Columbia, Haiti, Asia? What is the best Return on Investment (ROI) in terms of player acquisition? Luhnow has tended to ask scouts and minor league coaches their reasonings. This presumably identified people who have reasons from those who may prefer to follow a baseball tradition without questioning its basis. This does not mean Luhnow rejects traditions. They may be valid, in many instances. But unless you ask questions about the status quo, it is hard to find ways to improve on it, as competitive businesses should aim to do.
Mo and Luhnow seem to be able to work well together. Moving Schumaker to make room for a backup role for Rasmus was a clever idea, for instance.
TLR is a wonderful leader and Dave Duncan even better as a pitching coach, IMO. TLR is a pretty open-minded guy. But if he does not like where the Dewitt, Mo, Jeff show seems to be headed, it would be easy for him to depart after this season, once contract ends. Everyone leaves at some point. Alternatively, if TLR enjoys his association with St Louis, he should sign a new contract.
At least now I know where our “free-thinkers” get the phrase Kool-Aid drinkers.
Jumbo, I can’t say why both of your comments were hung up in the spam filter, but they have been released now. Sorry you had to make a second attempt, but it was better than the first post.
Nice summation jumbo. You should work in the state department, if you don’t already. Bottom line here is something folks don’t seem to like talking about. Billiam D is a progress social and political activist.
Because many of you live in Missouri, you often neglect to recognize the significants of this. I don’t think Luhnow is doing anything, save entertaining people who are watching him thinking he should be doing something. BD loathes free agency, Scott Boras, and quite a number of other things that might surprise you. He will have a convenient diversions at the ready to justify many of changes that are on the way. He is quite caught up in Washington affairs at the moment. Those issues will have a big effect on many aspects of Cardinal Baseball. The truth of this is all around you, and yet you puzzle at distortions in expected behaviors as witnessed by Joe Strauss. BD will have a completely self sufficient plantation, no matter what them damn Yankees do.
(Pun, but also a real observation about “the market”)
BD shelled out big bucks to buy Kyle Lohse out of free agency. Shook hands with Mr. Boras over it. And we drafted Shane, because Scottie B is a Cards legacy; we like to salute our own. Scott called up to say thanks for the courtesy, but Shane would be matriculating at USC, because his Dad favors more education at this point in his maturation.
Back in 1997, the Cards and Boras collaborated in breaking the back of the bonus system of the time by bonusing Ankiel. The next year, the Cards and Boras collaborated to give JD Drew a ML contract to a draftee. So the Cards and Boras know how to communicate with one another, when they see potential for mutual interest.
Who gave massive moola to Boras client A-Rod? Tom Hicks, Dubya’s new neighbor, that’s who. So whatever activism DeWitt could be up to, it does not necessarily follow that DeWitt is going to go dirt cheap.
On the other hand, its dummy stuff to gamble at high prices in the veteran free agent marketplace. Its smarter business to sign amateurs and take advantage of many years of salary control.
Jumbo, your post is “loaded” with information. There are many teams that have been watching the gene pool by products of professional athletes in the Caribbean and South America for 30 years. Yeah, the Cardinals are jumping right in……………………… Trust me Jumbo, its a remarkable world.
Luhnow probably wants to do a few screwball things per annum, so as to cultivate his reputation.
Hire a rocket scientist from NASA.
Hire a lefty knuckleballer from Harlingen and stick him at AAA.
Hire a painter to teach pitchers their natural motions. Daddy Dunc was probably taking notes.
Hire an aging S. Korean lefty.
Sign the first ever player out of the baseball hotbed of Haiti.
Sign an unheralded Japanese southpaw. (We will look anywhere for a cheap southpaw.)
How about the lefty Linares for AA, who had been out of pro ball for a year or so.
Or take UDFA Justin Fiske, have him throw a few pitches at A ball, move him up to AA, and send him to Arizona.
Jeff does all this stuff just to play mind games with Joe Strauss.!
Great one. But no, not all of it for Joe. Anybody that wants can probably get into his show.
So what about Mo’s hint he would like to trade for a 3rd baseman?
There should be some overpriced, underperforming 3rd basemen available. I suppose it could happen. Right now, however, the situation is great for Barden and Thurston.
If Freese could be back to playing at Memphis before August, he could be added during the dog days of a stretch run.
Attention Joe Strauss: Tyler Greene hit a homer to right center. You do not see shortstops do that everyday. He is also fast and has a strong arm. The combination is useful.
One big difference between bygone days and the new administration…..its not Joe Williams. Its having some depth at AAA. Greeene should be at AAA this season, but is up because needed. He can chip in, part-time, like Rasmus. Its good experience for him. No loyal veteran is being asked to play through an injury. Uninjured AAA guys like Greene, Robinson, Stavinoha get promoted to fill gaps.
Bobby Knight and Mike Schmidt may not be impressed by Greene, Stavinoha, Barden, Joe Thurston. Would Bobby and Mike be impressed by the pitching of Royce Ring at Memphis? Probably not. But its still useful to have depth, as opposed to njured veterans playing through pain like real men.
Bernie writes Mo is on the hot seat about finding a veteran to play at the hot corner. The articles by Strauss and Bernie are bookends on the same theme. Apparently, we need more vets and to spend more money on the ML roster. We need to give a ML ready pitcher to the Indians for DeRosa.
It must bug these guys to think that the Cards might turn to Brett Wallace. Even though we handed Wallace $1.8MM like we might someday hope to make use of him.
For now, Barden is doing a good job when he plays. Thurston chips in too. But it would be fun if the Cards adopt a platoon of Barden and Wallace.
Also if we have some ML ready pitchers in the minors, maybe we ought to keep them. They could come in handy some day.
(On an unhappy note, the elbow of Anthony Reyes is suffering again, so the last pitcher we gave the Indians is struggling and may head to the DL.)
Their is little or no chance that we would get a third baseman. These are all just preparation for talking up Troy locally and around the league. This is just a game of” Mo is an active GM”. The bleachers are filled, Chicago is struggling, Milwaukee will come down to earth. Acting like we are in the market gives Mo a chance to be contacting teams while he is trying to sell Troy, Ankiel and now K.Greene.
We are likely not going to trade any of this trio. Troy either can play and he will play for us, because we need him. Or he can’t play, in which case no one will want him in trade. K Greene is putting himself in the same situation; he is going to have to demonstrate that he can play, before anyone will want to take on his contract. After Rick biffed into the wall, he may be in the same boat.
I think we woud like to add a 3Bman, but should not surrender much in trade. So its unclear what will happen. Barden and Thurston are doing enough to keep us going.
Demand for 3rd sacker’s is up. If Mo is doing anything he is sniffing around to trade salary for prospects.
Seems the Joe Williams experiment is over. The Cardinals cut him and promoted Eduardo Sanchez from Palm Beach.
The brief trial for Williams does little for Joe Strauss. His article took a modest fact (hiring of Williams) and inflated it into a soap opera that it was not.
Sanchez has been flying under the prospect radar, maybe because rated sub-6 feet, 155 lbs, and focused on reliever. But he has pitched well for two A ball squads.
Maybe Mulligan can get a promotion to backfill Sanchez.