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	<title>Comments on: La Russa’s coaching legacy: Part two</title>
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	<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/</link>
	<description>Brian Walton&#039;s news and commentary on the St. Louis Cardinals (TM) and their minor league system</description>
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		<title>By: WestCoastbirdWatcher</title>
		<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/#comment-2741</link>
		<dc:creator>WestCoastbirdWatcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 17:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecardinalnation.com/?p=3253#comment-2741</guid>
		<description>Franklin and Pineiro will likely begone not because of present salary status, but through market forces.  Yes the others are history.   Tony is more than a manager.  He even coaches the coaches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Franklin and Pineiro will likely begone not because of present salary status, but through market forces.  Yes the others are history.   Tony is more than a manager.  He even coaches the coaches.</p>
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		<title>By: JumboShrimp</title>
		<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/#comment-2735</link>
		<dc:creator>JumboShrimp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 07:26:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecardinalnation.com/?p=3253#comment-2735</guid>
		<description>Westie, you have been coached about the word coach.  In baseball, the head guy is called a manager.   
I very much hope the Cards slash payroll further than merely to 79 million.  Possible departures of Glaus $11MM, Greene $6.5MM, Kennedy $4MM, Franklin $2.2MM, Miller, Pineiro $7.5MM, Wellemeyer $4MM, Ankiel $3MM, provide a wonderful opportunity to reduce costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Westie, you have been coached about the word coach.  In baseball, the head guy is called a manager.<br />
I very much hope the Cards slash payroll further than merely to 79 million.  Possible departures of Glaus $11MM, Greene $6.5MM, Kennedy $4MM, Franklin $2.2MM, Miller, Pineiro $7.5MM, Wellemeyer $4MM, Ankiel $3MM, provide a wonderful opportunity to reduce costs.</p>
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		<title>By: WestCoastbirdWatcher</title>
		<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/#comment-2731</link>
		<dc:creator>WestCoastbirdWatcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 05:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecardinalnation.com/?p=3253#comment-2731</guid>
		<description>So no one is going to take the bait huh............... you guys aren&#039;t much fun any more.  I&#039;ll go ahead and swallow this one.   

Times have changed boys.  Watching the diamondback tv guys in agony about talking up Hitch or lose their jobs was great entertainment.  The press release stating that he will be head coach on a 3 year contract are ludicrous.  Their ownership will set a high number in the Tony/Dave sweepstakes.  Somebody thinks Dave is worth his weight in gold in these pitching starved days.  Considering the costs, thats about right.

Dizzy, stability, as you use the term, was and still is a conservative term for profitability.  Oquendo would have one chance at being coach.  Cards go the series, and Tony taking another job regardless of a successful season.  I put that at 1/50.  And thats not because I think it likely stays.  He will go west.  Before the season started there was a lot of talk about change.  Its coming, maybe even faster than expected.  I&#039;m changing my 85mill payroll prediction for 2010 now to 79 million.  That is a solid number in my misguided opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So no one is going to take the bait huh&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; you guys aren&#8217;t much fun any more.  I&#8217;ll go ahead and swallow this one.   </p>
<p>Times have changed boys.  Watching the diamondback tv guys in agony about talking up Hitch or lose their jobs was great entertainment.  The press release stating that he will be head coach on a 3 year contract are ludicrous.  Their ownership will set a high number in the Tony/Dave sweepstakes.  Somebody thinks Dave is worth his weight in gold in these pitching starved days.  Considering the costs, thats about right.</p>
<p>Dizzy, stability, as you use the term, was and still is a conservative term for profitability.  Oquendo would have one chance at being coach.  Cards go the series, and Tony taking another job regardless of a successful season.  I put that at 1/50.  And thats not because I think it likely stays.  He will go west.  Before the season started there was a lot of talk about change.  Its coming, maybe even faster than expected.  I&#8217;m changing my 85mill payroll prediction for 2010 now to 79 million.  That is a solid number in my misguided opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: JumboShrimp</title>
		<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/#comment-2730</link>
		<dc:creator>JumboShrimp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 02:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecardinalnation.com/?p=3253#comment-2730</guid>
		<description>Very fine comments Dizzy.   
Well written too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very fine comments Dizzy.<br />
Well written too.</p>
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		<title>By: WestCoastbirdWatcher</title>
		<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/#comment-2729</link>
		<dc:creator>WestCoastbirdWatcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 23:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecardinalnation.com/?p=3253#comment-2729</guid>
		<description>Passan has a column up on Cardinal home runs.

Wainwright discovers, via Carpenter, that his arm angle is 3 or 4inches different from last year.  Plausible?  Or is Dave that good, using a messenger thinking maybe Wainwright too delicate for another interventions at this point?  The subtle psychiatry of coaching.  That eventuality really wouldn&#039;t surprise me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Passan has a column up on Cardinal home runs.</p>
<p>Wainwright discovers, via Carpenter, that his arm angle is 3 or 4inches different from last year.  Plausible?  Or is Dave that good, using a messenger thinking maybe Wainwright too delicate for another interventions at this point?  The subtle psychiatry of coaching.  That eventuality really wouldn&#8217;t surprise me.</p>
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		<title>By: DizzyDean17</title>
		<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/#comment-2728</link>
		<dc:creator>DizzyDean17</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 22:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecardinalnation.com/?p=3253#comment-2728</guid>
		<description>I mentioned Alston and Lasorda more along the lines of continuity and stability. Did the Dodgers care that Gomez, Hartsfield and Ozark went on to manage their competition? Was it a prerequisite of their hiring on as coaches that they get some sort of OJT from Alston? I don&#039;t think so.

TLR is clearly comfortable being surrounded by guys that seem to be comfortable in their positions, unencumbered by lofty goals of standing in the bright lights of media conferences. Perhaps the guys he hires feel awkward in front of a microphone. Duncan seems to be that way, at least from what I read on these different forums.

Again, I just don&#039;t see training future competition as any part of a manager&#039;s job description. TLR has been here 14 years now. If Oquendo takes over for him (and does well) he will have performed above and beyond the call of duty.

However, TLR won&#039;t be making the decision about who will replace him so why should he worry about it. It&#039;s up to the future managers of the world to learn for themselves and then be able to communicate in an interview that they have what it takes to manage a baseball team.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mentioned Alston and Lasorda more along the lines of continuity and stability. Did the Dodgers care that Gomez, Hartsfield and Ozark went on to manage their competition? Was it a prerequisite of their hiring on as coaches that they get some sort of OJT from Alston? I don&#8217;t think so.</p>
<p>TLR is clearly comfortable being surrounded by guys that seem to be comfortable in their positions, unencumbered by lofty goals of standing in the bright lights of media conferences. Perhaps the guys he hires feel awkward in front of a microphone. Duncan seems to be that way, at least from what I read on these different forums.</p>
<p>Again, I just don&#8217;t see training future competition as any part of a manager&#8217;s job description. TLR has been here 14 years now. If Oquendo takes over for him (and does well) he will have performed above and beyond the call of duty.</p>
<p>However, TLR won&#8217;t be making the decision about who will replace him so why should he worry about it. It&#8217;s up to the future managers of the world to learn for themselves and then be able to communicate in an interview that they have what it takes to manage a baseball team.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/#comment-2727</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 22:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecardinalnation.com/?p=3253#comment-2727</guid>
		<description>BTW. despite Alston having the insecurity of all those one-year contracts, smaller staffs and fewer managerial years than TLR, he launched at least twice as many MLB managers as TLR. In addition to Tommy Lasorda, future MLB managers Preston Gomez, Roy Hartsfield and Danny Ozark each had their MLB coaching starts under him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW. despite Alston having the insecurity of all those one-year contracts, smaller staffs and fewer managerial years than TLR, he launched at least twice as many MLB managers as TLR. In addition to Tommy Lasorda, future MLB managers Preston Gomez, Roy Hartsfield and Danny Ozark each had their MLB coaching starts under him.</p>
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		<title>By: WestCoastbirdWatcher</title>
		<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/#comment-2726</link>
		<dc:creator>WestCoastbirdWatcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 20:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecardinalnation.com/?p=3253#comment-2726</guid>
		<description>Of all Bill Walsh&#039;s protégées, the ones that merit  attention, all used their personnel communication skills in cultivating a relationship with a charismatic and gifted athlete to play QB, as Bill did.  The closeness of this relationship, allowed for the intuitive and improvisational offenses later to be known as &quot;West Coast football.&quot;   Tony has a unique personality.  He is highly emotional and intuitive.  He has people around him the allow him that freedom.  They wouldn&#039;t last long unless they did.  Considering just the influence of modern baseball contracts and agreements, coupled with the implications of wealth and influence to those with little or no education........ what&#039;s to teach? People seek the innately gifted coach because of their success at negotiating this difficult terrain, not because they are necessarily good teachers.  Leland is a good example of &quot;Old School&quot; thats not working anymore in this environment.  Tony is old school but probably smokes pot in the off season.  Enjoy him while he is here.  His contract demands would only be entertained if someone thought it might help with an Albert extension. Part of Duncan&#039;s big raise was a mutual option, whose purpose was cost containment if they extend Tony.  I don&#039;t see that happening.  If you&#039;re following Cardinal Village politics you would understand.  If you want to know who the next coach will be, good luck.  Its just as apt to be Jeff Lunhow, (spelling) as anyone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of all Bill Walsh&#8217;s protégées, the ones that merit  attention, all used their personnel communication skills in cultivating a relationship with a charismatic and gifted athlete to play QB, as Bill did.  The closeness of this relationship, allowed for the intuitive and improvisational offenses later to be known as &#8220;West Coast football.&#8221;   Tony has a unique personality.  He is highly emotional and intuitive.  He has people around him the allow him that freedom.  They wouldn&#8217;t last long unless they did.  Considering just the influence of modern baseball contracts and agreements, coupled with the implications of wealth and influence to those with little or no education&#8230;&#8230;.. what&#8217;s to teach? People seek the innately gifted coach because of their success at negotiating this difficult terrain, not because they are necessarily good teachers.  Leland is a good example of &#8220;Old School&#8221; thats not working anymore in this environment.  Tony is old school but probably smokes pot in the off season.  Enjoy him while he is here.  His contract demands would only be entertained if someone thought it might help with an Albert extension. Part of Duncan&#8217;s big raise was a mutual option, whose purpose was cost containment if they extend Tony.  I don&#8217;t see that happening.  If you&#8217;re following Cardinal Village politics you would understand.  If you want to know who the next coach will be, good luck.  Its just as apt to be Jeff Lunhow, (spelling) as anyone else.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/#comment-2725</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 18:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecardinalnation.com/?p=3253#comment-2725</guid>
		<description>DD, you raise an interesting thought about having (or not having) a coach around who wants your job. That may play into it. 

In Alston&#039;s days, there were far fewer MLB teams to need managers and each club had only three or maybe four coaches instead of the six-plus today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DD, you raise an interesting thought about having (or not having) a coach around who wants your job. That may play into it. </p>
<p>In Alston&#8217;s days, there were far fewer MLB teams to need managers and each club had only three or maybe four coaches instead of the six-plus today.</p>
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		<title>By: DizzyDean17</title>
		<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/#comment-2723</link>
		<dc:creator>DizzyDean17</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 16:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecardinalnation.com/?p=3253#comment-2723</guid>
		<description>Brian, I won&#039;t say there&#039;s NO downside to TLR not having produced a forest of managers but I like the stability and the continuity that he has given the franchise. No manager in this team&#039;s history comes close to La Russa&#039;s record for making the postseason. His responsibility is to win games on the field with the players given him by the front office.

Consider the Dodgers as an example: Walt Alston managed 23 years from 1954 through 1976 and won seven NL pennants before giving way to Tommie Lasorda who led the team another 20 years and took them to the postseason eight times. I can remember reading about Leo Durocher, who coached third for a time, coveting Alston&#039;s job. Durocher had managed the Dodgers earlier.

You&#039;ve presented some great information but I&#039;m not persuaded that you have uncovered a shortcoming of TLR.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian, I won&#8217;t say there&#8217;s NO downside to TLR not having produced a forest of managers but I like the stability and the continuity that he has given the franchise. No manager in this team&#8217;s history comes close to La Russa&#8217;s record for making the postseason. His responsibility is to win games on the field with the players given him by the front office.</p>
<p>Consider the Dodgers as an example: Walt Alston managed 23 years from 1954 through 1976 and won seven NL pennants before giving way to Tommie Lasorda who led the team another 20 years and took them to the postseason eight times. I can remember reading about Leo Durocher, who coached third for a time, coveting Alston&#8217;s job. Durocher had managed the Dodgers earlier.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve presented some great information but I&#8217;m not persuaded that you have uncovered a shortcoming of TLR.</p>
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		<title>By: JumboShrimp</title>
		<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/#comment-2722</link>
		<dc:creator>JumboShrimp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 16:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecardinalnation.com/?p=3253#comment-2722</guid>
		<description>Schuler, Watson, and Lau may each be strong people.   Proximity to strong people may not threaten TLR or be threatened by him.   Some marriages last shorter time periods than quite a few coaches have chosen to associate with TLR.   On field success probably helps explain employment stability within a profession with a lot of flux and revolving chairs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Schuler, Watson, and Lau may each be strong people.   Proximity to strong people may not threaten TLR or be threatened by him.   Some marriages last shorter time periods than quite a few coaches have chosen to associate with TLR.   On field success probably helps explain employment stability within a profession with a lot of flux and revolving chairs.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/#comment-2721</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 13:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecardinalnation.com/?p=3253#comment-2721</guid>
		<description>Hard to see how being a pitching coach for La Russa helped Schuler become a better GM or Watson to become a better MLB disciplinarian. Charlie Lau&#039;s success was achieved long before he made his last coaching stop with TLR in Chicago. 

In his recent book, Rob Rains goes into some detail about how Hawk Harrelson forced Moe onto La Russa&#039;s staff as a second pitching coach after he had tried and failed to fire Duncan. The Sox spent part of the 1986 season with a starting pitching coach and a relief pitching coach before Harrelson reassigned Moe. TLR was getting an awful lot of &quot;help&quot; in those days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hard to see how being a pitching coach for La Russa helped Schuler become a better GM or Watson to become a better MLB disciplinarian. Charlie Lau&#8217;s success was achieved long before he made his last coaching stop with TLR in Chicago. </p>
<p>In his recent book, Rob Rains goes into some detail about how Hawk Harrelson forced Moe onto La Russa&#8217;s staff as a second pitching coach after he had tried and failed to fire Duncan. The Sox spent part of the 1986 season with a starting pitching coach and a relief pitching coach before Harrelson reassigned Moe. TLR was getting an awful lot of &#8220;help&#8221; in those days.</p>
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		<title>By: JumboShrimp</title>
		<link>http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/05/11/la-russas-coaching-legacy-part-two/#comment-2718</link>
		<dc:creator>JumboShrimp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 10:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecardinalnation.com/?p=3253#comment-2718</guid>
		<description>Ron Schueler became a GM for a decade (and later an advisor to Uncle Walt during 2006).   
Bob Watson has had a prominent role for MLB.  
Charlie Lau had a lot of publicity as a teacher of hitting.    
Interesting that Orlando Cepeda worked with TLR for a year.  Moe Drabowksy was a Cardinal too.  
He has had 5 hitting coaches in St Louis, all good hitters in their day, all African-American. 
Bench coaching for TLR does not seem a fast track to ML manager.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron Schueler became a GM for a decade (and later an advisor to Uncle Walt during 2006).<br />
Bob Watson has had a prominent role for MLB.<br />
Charlie Lau had a lot of publicity as a teacher of hitting.<br />
Interesting that Orlando Cepeda worked with TLR for a year.  Moe Drabowksy was a Cardinal too.<br />
He has had 5 hitting coaches in St Louis, all good hitters in their day, all African-American.<br />
Bench coaching for TLR does not seem a fast track to ML manager.</p>
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