To be honest, until recently I hadn’t been all that energized over the potential of seeing many pitched battles in spring training for roster spots on the 2009 St. Louis Cardinals. Instead, I was thinking more about likelihood of gauging the health of Chris Carpenter daily and interpreting its impact in solidifying the rotation and bullpen.
However, that was before recent comments coming out of the Cardinals brass that actually have me gotten me kind of excited.
Why? Colby Rasmus and Joe Mather are why.
Rasmus considerations
For two reasons, I had previously felt quite strongly that top prospect Rasmus would not make the team out of spring training no matter how well he played. That may still be the case, but the door has now been opened a crack.
First, there are the five incumbent outfielders ahead of Colby – Rick Ankiel, Skip Schumaker, Ryan Ludwick, Chris Duncan and Mather. Six if you count 2008 Rule 5 pick Brian Barton. Sure, one or more could be traded, but that hasn’t happened yet and very well may not. I also never take the easy way out in roster questions by assuming players will become injured. I consider that a copout to avoid making tough calls.
The second Rasmus reason is clearly still valid. That is financial. Ensuring Colby does not spend his entire first season in the bigs would prevent his free agency from occurring a year sooner than would be the case otherwise. While we are talking about six years from now, it is still very significant – a whole additional season under team control.
But this post isn’t about Rasmus as much as it is about Mather. One of my secondary concerns about Rasmus making the team was that if he did so over Mather, it would overbalance the outfield with four lefty hitters and just one righty (Ludwick).
Mo and TLR introduce a scenario
It seems the Cards are considering the chances of having their Rasmus cake and eating their Mather dessert, too. I offer these revealing comments that GM John Mozeliak volunteered to Hall of Famer Rick Hummel of the Post-Dispatch last week.
“Mozeliak ruled out nothing but also said that the Cardinals’ opening day roster might include all of the aforementioned outfielders plus rookie Colby Rasmus and Joe Mather, who last year filled a utility role, a role that might be expanded to third base and perhaps even second base this spring,” Hummel reported.
This section of the article also included a direct Mozeliak quote.
“But he (Mo) added, ‘I do think there’s a way that all these guys (the six at the big-league level) make it. There is a scenario.’”
The very next day, a Derrick Goold piece quoted manager Tony La Russa jabbing at the second base idea, but essentially backing the rest.
“After a joke about 6-foot-4 Joe Mather playing a little second base during spring training and becoming one of the tallest ever to play the position, La Russa says Mather will see time at first base, in the outfield and, yes, even third base.”
So, what is the scenario at which Mozeliak hinted?
Mather makes the team as more of an infield reserve than an outfield reserve, that’s how.
How does it all fit together?
Let’s step back for a second and consider the way the 25-man roster is typically constructed coming out of camp. The good news is that it is pretty consistent from year to year.
There are five starting pitchers, seven relievers including two lefties, and 13 position players. From there you have the eight starters and five reserves. One back up is a catcher, two are outfielders and two infielders.
We’ve already discussed the outfield situation. The reserve catcher, Jason LaRue, is set. Brendan Ryan, a middle infielder by training and out of options, is very likely one infield back up. That leaves one spot, generally to be considered the position vacated by Aaron Miles, someone who could play all over the field.
The list of current candidates for that spot is woven from an unproven, somewhat uninspiring fabric, headed by non-roster invitee and former Dodgers prospect Joe Thurston. Others in the mix are Brian Barden and Tyler Greene.
Where could Mather fit?
With Ryan able to play second, short or third, could Joe Mather handle that other infield reserve job, also providing the ability to play outfield and deliver some much-needed pop off the bench?
From the Memphis perspective, the answer is “yes”, with Thurston taking over the D’Angelo Jimenez veteran middle infielder role, and Barden, Greene and Jarrett Hoffpauir also competing for Triple-A at-bats.
Another player that will likely be considered for a St. Louis opening is third baseman David Freese. He has a nice bat and is a more accomplished third baseman, though he seems to lack Mather’s versatility.
Let’s go around the diamond with Mather. We don’t know if he can pitch an inning in a blowout like Miles but he may be able to serve as third-string emergency catcher. Mather played behind the plate in at least one game in 2007 with Memphis.
We also know that he can play all three outfield positions quite handily as well as cover at first base, providing a right-handed hitting reserve to complement the lefty-hitting Duncan behind Albert Pujols.
As La Russa noted, the 6-foot-4 Mather would be a tall second baseman and Joe has apparently never played there. On the other hand, Cal Ripken, the same height as Mather, single-handedly destroyed the myth that shortstop has to be a “short” position.
Mather grew up playing the infield, specifically on the left side, and still considers that his first love. Yet since he has rarely played shortstop professionally, he still has to be considered only an emergency option there.
“In high school, I played third base my junior year and shortstop my senior year. When I signed, my first year with the Cardinals in ’01, I played third and short,” Mather reminded me Thursday.
Third base is really the wild card. While starter Troy Glaus was a durable performer in his first year in St. Louis in 2008, he has had injury problems in the past. Ryan can play the position defensively, but is a bit erratic there and lacks the power of a Mather.
While having manned at the hot corner in the past, it has been a long time for Mather. First, I asked him if the rumors from St. Louis had reached Arizona.
“Yeah, my Dad and my sister got a hold of that and called me right away… I think that would be great. I would definitely welcome it. I grew up playing shortstop and third base so any time I can get in there I’d love it and hopefully I’ll prove I can still play there,” he explained.
Next, I probed a bit more about his third base history. Officially, Mather played some there professionally from 2001 through 2004. I believe his last official regular season game action at third prior to 2008 was a single appearance in 2005 while he was still in A-ball at Palm Beach.
I had forgotten that in one of his 54 major league games last season, the 26-year-old did make his MLB debut at third base. He had no chances defensively, however. I asked Mather his comfort level playing at the hot corner.
“I am pretty comfortable. They put me there in a couple of spring training games at Triple-A. I played third. I ended up getting a couple of balls and made the plays. I think one of those things that I’ve done my whole life to a point I can get back to being decent over there pretty quickly. When it comes to maybe being an all-star, that might take a few years,” he cracked.
“Getting back into it and taking as many reps as I can; I think that with a little work, I can be good enough over there to play in the big leagues,” Mather concluded.
My nagging concern is how he is going to get those needed third base reps in spring camp. Will it be in major league games? If so, how short will his leash be?
Last March, I recall probing this same exact line of thinking, asking La Russa point blank if Mather was going to play at third base in spring games. His reply was a curt, direct, “Not here”.
As noted above, Mather did see some time at third base with Memphis, though not in even one actual game. Still, he is ready to do anything needed to remain with the Cardinals, even if it is as a reserve infielder/outfielder.
“Absolutely, I’ll take that role. Any role in St. Louis is going to be better than a role in the minor leagues. I’ve played in the minor leagues for a few years (starting in 2001),” the outfielder understated.
It is a year later and with different variables, but it seems the pressure could be squarely on Mather early in camp to prove his mettle at third base. Doing so would really improve his chances of making the season-opening MLB roster for the very first time.
At least tangentially, it could also help grease the skids for his pal Rasmus.
“I’m great friends with Colby. We’ve roomed together for I think the last two or three years and it would be great to have us both up there. I know that Colby is chomping at the bit to get up there and prove how good he is,” Mather concluded.
All he wants is a chance to prove himself like Joe Mather did in 2008.
Note: Scout.com subscribers can listen to the entire Mather audio interview in his own words here. Among the other topics are how and when he was injured, why his problem won’t be coming back, his workout plans in the off-season, a trip back to his old high school that led to a contest and an honor, his plans to attend Winter Warm-up and more!
I love the way Mather plays the game. I saw him quite a few times at Memphis ,and he is a really good athlete for a big man. The Cardinals have built a good Minor League system, they just need to make the right moves to let them play,or make the trades to futher strengthen the team. In Mather’s case ,I hope we keep him.
I also wondered about Glaus potentially being a backup MI guy too in case we wanted to go with Mather (or even Freese) as our extra guy on the bench. Glaus has played at SS (and wasnt too shabby in college if i remember right), and i am guessing he coudl play a pretty decent 2b if we worked him out there…both of them truly are big, but ya never know right? I mean Albert played at 2b last year for part of game right?
I agree with Covington that we should try to keep Mather. What I disagree with is that we try to keep all of Duncan, Barton, Ankiel, Ludwick, and Schumaker. When you throw in Stavinoh sp? and Jay, we have both a surfeit of MLB-ready talent, as well as a deep organization. The problem with moving Mather to 3rd is that that is the other position that we have a surfeit of quality talent. Wallace is, by all accounts, major league ready, or if not, at least deserving of a peak in the summer, with the bat with the question marks on his glove. Further, Freese and Craig are top notch talent too.
When looking at the minor league system as a whole, there are gaping holes in the middle infield and front-line rotation. If the Cardinals want to grab a front of rotation prospect, they are going to have to come off of some talent at 3rd or the outfield, or both. It will not be cheap. Our current top guy, Wainwright, was a prospect we got for J.D. Drew. I suspect that Ludwick or Rasmus would command that kind of player in return. Conversely, to get an upgrade at middle infield would require, at a minimum, Schumaker + one of Freese or Craig. Moving Mather to 3rd doesn’t open up the system when we need somebody at 2nd.
I agree with you ckeiner, the man we need to move is Rick Ankiel. We already have to many lefthanded bats, and the chances fo us being able to sign him next year, is slim to none. Duncan is another, but until he shows he is healthy, he has no value. Ludwick and Mather are the only righthanded bats we have ready for the big leagues this year. Barton will be in Memphis where he can play everyday, to get ready. With Jones, Jay,and Barton,there is hardly a place for Stavinoha to play regulary. I will get to see some pretty good baseball in Memphis this year, and I wish it was today.
ck, not sure who suggested all the outfielders be kept. I have been saying for months that Ankiel should be moved but it takes two to tango. There are still a number of very good free agent outfielders out there, so the Cards may be having trouble getting a decent return.
As an aside, when I write articles, I don’t assume trades or injuries will occur in the future. I deal with what is known now. Currently, the Cardinals have this glut of outfielders. That remains my assumption until something happens that changes it.
jager, don’t hold your breath in anticipation of Glaus being asked to play anywhere but third. At this stage of his career, he is not known as a particularly-nimble third baseman.
To help clarify a point Jaeger, The pitchers are forming a lynch part, and your the guest..
Brian,
I apologize for misreading your post. That being said, I think that a more likely scenario is that Tyler Greene or Jarret Hauffpauir gets a good long look as a utility infielder too. The problem with Mather seems to be that the only position he might play besides corner outfielder is 3rd base. I would be very concerned with Brenden Ryan playing 60 or 70 games at short and 2nd. However, Mather certainly represents a more powerful bat, and a righty at that compared to either Greene, Hoffpauir or Ryan.
Brian–
After listening to Luhnow yesterday, I think Wallace will be a third baseman for the Cards. It’s a tough call when to bring him up, though, as arguably Freese is more ready now than he is. And now you have to go and make it harder by adding Mather to the equation…The real trouble with all this is that there are basically five guys floating in the MLB/AAAA/AAA ether who can back up the two guys who least need backing up: Pujols and Glaus (Craig/Wallace/Freese/Mather = 1B; Duncan/Mather = 1B). Oh dear.
I think the situation will resolve itself, as Duncan really just needs to prove he’s healthy in ST so he can be traded. Unless he looks to have another 2006-type season, it’s hard to see him hanging on with Rasmus ready. I agree with you that Mather is going to be the primary corner infielder-backup as well as a floater for the outfield. He could see a lot of late-inning replacement duty as a pinch-hitter. But I disagree that it will come at the expense of Rasmus. He needs to make the team badly, simply for his own psyche, and I think he will. He would be an excellent leadoff man, though he won’t take that slot until Skip is traded. Duncan could relatively valuable if he was a better outfielder. But right now I think the trade order is probably: 1. Duncan; 2. Freese; 3. Schumaker.
Now, who else can play second?
ck, no problem at all. I just wanted to make sure I was more clear the second time. I agree there is concern about Ryan, not because he can’t play, but instead due to his inconsistency. He is another one who needs to report to camp and impress right from the start. Having said that, I don’t think Hoff or TGreene (or Barden or Thurston) have shown enough yet to displace Ryan. Greene and Barden can cover more infield positions than Mather. I consider them more like Ryan.
Middle infield clearly would become the major weakness of the somewhat unorthodox Mather infield reserve scenario covered in the above article. Yet, as noted, there are plenty of options down in Memphis if there was an injury.
RedC, I didn’t mean to imply that Mather is taking anything away from Rasmus. He is not. I only remarked that if Mather can cover the corner infield, that could help open up an outfield spot for Rasmus, given the guys that are on the roster now.
Unless Glaus gets hurt, the Cards aren’t going to want Wallace around to sit on the bench. He really needs to play every single day in 2009 and continue to improve at third. If they need someone short-term, it would seem to be Freese. (Quite a step up from Rico Washington last year, eh?)
Every spring, possibilities bloom. It is a time of hopefulness.
In spring, baseball executives are generous in talking about what, if possibilities. Maybe this is a way to pump up fan interest. It is arguably their job to do this. And it would seem bad marketing to announce there is absolutely no way Rasmus could make the team, no matter how well he plays in spring training. So of course, therefore, he has to be said to be able to make the team.
It seems possible Mather could help out TLR by backing up 1B, 3B, SS, and 2B, as well as play three OF positions.
Yet it hard to imagine why the Cards would choose Rasmus to be a 5th OF in the bigs, when he could play everyday at AAA and has not excelled at AAA yet. To celebrate the wonder and joys of spring, maybe I should be more willing to play along with the happy talk from baseball execs. But its very cold today, where I am.
Well..as un-nimble as Glaus is now he still covered his position pretty well last year..regardless of Izturis helping out (which Greene coudl do as well for him and 2b if we used Freese at 3rd…
I’m not saying Glaus fulltime at 2b or SS would be good..but playing him at 2b against some lefties instead of Kennedy is an potion that wouldnt be as terrible as many of you think..i dont know if he has played there, but if he knows ss i am sure he woudl be fine with some practice this summer…
our 2bman against lefties is still something i am worried about for this team…Tyler Greene looks to hit lefties pretty well, btu past him i dont see alot of options for 2b against lefties..Kennedy isnt very good at all..
as for my lynch party…you should go find some video of Glaus at SS..might surprise you…
It seems as if the cardinals are very deep with athletic outfielders/3B throughout the system, It would seem that at least 1 of them could play average to slightly below average 2B defense; but moving their offense numbers to 2B would be a huge upgrade. I think skip could do it, and his numbers would look great as a 2B, especially going against rhp.
You know who’s numbers would look really good at second?….Albert. I know not realistic, especially with the elbow problems, but he came up as a 3B and outfeilder and turned himself into a gold glove first baseman. I think if we asked him to fly he would figure out a way to do it. This would open up a spot to get wallace in the lineup as well.
I think some folks may underestimate the difficulty of mastering second base, especially trying to do so in the major leagues. After all, the Cardinals surely understand their need. If they thought it was doable, they would be pushing it. In recent months, I have been asked about Shane Robinson, Jon Jay, Schumaker, etc. Better to trade surplus at other positions and use players up the middle that are comfortable there.
Brian-
That is exactly the point I was making. The Cards have a bunch of outfielders and 3rd basemen who are ready or will be. Further, they have a catcher in Anderson that I don’t see a place for either. It is high time to start dealing from their positions of strength to shore up their needs, ie front of rotation pitching (will cost a great deal in trade, but way, way, way more on the open market) and middle infielders. However, I suspect that Mo has been trying to do just that. As soon as ManRam comes off the table, the market for outfielders should open up and Ankiel (the one I think they should be offering) will find his value pretty quickly.
In addition to Manny, there are other pretty decent OFs still available in the likes of Dunn and Abreu, to name two. With only one year left before free agency, Ankiel may be tough to move. For a number of reasons, I join you in hoping they are trying, Chris.
Hopefully, I can add something here as it pertains to Brian’s story from what I learned on day 1 of the WWU:
After hearing Mo, I believe that the team will go with 6 OFs, unless a deal is made.
I think Colby makes the team out of ST unless he performs poorly.
Ryan has added 10-15 lbs of muscle. It took me a couple of minutes to even recognize him.
Barden has a very good chance to make this team. Let me rephrase this, he has as good of shot as any. Mo likes how well he plays SS.
Mo is intrigued with what Thurston brings to the table. Oquendo speaks highly of him.
Kennedy believes the 2B job is up for grabs and he plans on winning it.
Thanks for the report, whitey. If six OFs are a lock, then Ryan OR Barden OR Thurston makes the team but not even two of them. Not enough roster spots to do anything else.
I don’t know if it is a lock but Mo seems sold on the idea. I wonder how tough a sell it will be to Tony. Mather welcomes and is excited about the chance of taking grounders at second base.
Tony was not positive the other day about trying Mather at second, despite Mo’s comments. Guess we shall see soon enough, but we know which one makes up the lineup card.
Update, Jan. 18:
From a P-D chatboard this morning, was posted by “Cranny,” who reports on Q&A at the Winter Warm-Up with Mo:
Mo: Glaus has been a really good find. They will consider signing him to several more years if Freese doesn’t have a good year and they decide to move Wallace to the OF. Felt that Craig was still several years away.
I guess this gives a little more credence to what I had been adducing, namely that Glaus could be extended and that Wallace is not a lock at third. Still have to wonder how you find payroll room for Glaus and Pujols post-extension. They badly need someone like Joba Chamberlain in the rotation–a cost-controlled, high-ceiling starter who can replace Carpenter, at least in a couple of years.
Yes, thanks for posting. What it tells me is that they do have some concerns about Wallace’s defense, despite what other officials might say. On the other hand, the comment at face value is also clear that they are going to wait until after the season to make the decision on Glaus. Freese and Wallace have the 2009 season to step up or out of the 3B picture. As you note, hard to believe that money won’t end up being a factor.
I have to apologize for saying this here Brian, but this comment on Glaus is pure deception by Mo. It is a perfect indication of the mind set he has been put into by DeWitt. Constant mis direction, always obscuring the obvious and inevitable for some distant value system that no longer exists.
Personnel bet for you. Anything you would care to wager at 2/1 that the Cards don’t extend Glaus.
It he hits 50 jacks, 125rbi’s and bats 350, we could not hold him. If he hits 30 jacks with 95 rbi’s, Cards make the playoffs, but he would be looking for 3yrs. If he hits 20jacks by the deadline, hitting 300, and the cards aren’t within 5games of the lead, they will at least see who might be interested in the half year. If he hits like last year, you couldn’t get a hand full of beans in a salary dump.
No need to apologize at all WC. When I heard it, I thought something similar, though not with the same dastardly intent. While I also doubt the reality of the statement, I understand why Mo apparently said it. Keep all options open.
After all, what benefit is there to publicly saying now, “Yeah we plan to dump Glaus as soon as we get out from under his contract. We’re worried about whether or not Wallace’s defense is good enough and if Freese’s 2008 was a fluke, though. If one of the two kids don’t come through, we might have to try to get Glaus back on a low-ball offer. We’d rather use the money on Albert.”?
Instead, it is in the Cardinals interest to have Glaus as motivated as possible during 2009. So, make some vague positive statements that make his lame duck status seem less likely without committing anything.
Glaus will turn 34 during the 2010 season and isn’t exactly Lou Gehrig, though he did stay pretty healthy during 2008. If I was the Cardinals, I would surely think long and hard before even considering giving him what he will want; say three years, knowing he would be 37 years old by the end of the deal. But they can’t discuss this with the press, even if they believe it.
I have a different take than WC. I don’t think Mo is a liar, obfuscator or manipulator. I think he just tries to be as honest as can be, given players’ futures and the team’s finances and attendant limitations. Is that so hard to imagine?
Nope. Certainly, nothing is set in stone. Seems like reasonable comments to make.
It’s tough to see what enjoyment one could derive from baseball while feeling the need to constantly demonize someone.
Reasonable take Brian. RedC, sorry, but I know better. These gross generality’s, suddenly specific in regard to Freeze. KNOW CHANCE! Thats not how small and mid market teams do business. The Twins almost melted down when they had to sign Morneau and Mauer finally.
The next Cardinal third baseman will be Wallace, in August or September. Freeze is already trade barter. You have to have done time with a team that can’t hold its own stars or is only willing to keep the poster boys. That would be the Cards if Albert stays. I don’t think he will, unless God heals Carpenter and hangs a few sliders for Glaus.
Mo didn’t LIE!! He just has a very expansive vocabulary, not necessarily related to a precise definition of his subject matter.
Nutlaw, I like Mo. He is an innocent. But when he says Glaus has a future. Thats a lie. They have this thing mapped out for years to come. The Holiday maneuver shows exactly whats on their agenda, and how they mean to go about it. That wasn’t zany sportsman looking for a hero. It would have freed up the outfield of Arbitration ready unknowns for a guaranteed 13 million dollar salary bail in 2010. Save paying Ludwick for his 37 with an All star appearance. All rookie outfielders there in 2010. Infield will have two rookies also. They would give Pujols 200 mill paid out over 20 yrs. They know he will defer salary. This is about cash flow not baseball. Greene may well have been their second choice for a bailout boy. How many performance scenarios do you see him staying a Cardinal with. Will they be paying for a 10million dollar shortstop? What if he plays like a 3million dollar SS. He will probably try free agency if there is conflict over his value. That whats happening here. This team could excell, for some reason, and they would still stay with the business plan. The exception was Lohse. They had to change there rules or look like idiots. Phillies would have signed Lohse before November if they don’t take him that day.